Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

I don't think Tommen's supposed to be mentally challenged just kind of dumb.

But maybe because I've been in Bran and Arya's heads and they seem to be heads and shoulders above Tommen.

Edited February 11, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

I don't get either a slow or a dumb vibe from him. He literally just seems like a very sheltered seven-year-old who no one ever let do anything growing up, so there might be an emotional underdevelopment there if anything. Considering the fact that he had sociopathic Joffrey for a brother, crazy pants Cersei for a mom and drunken and neglecting Robert for a father ... I'd say he's turned out pretty well. Myrcella also surprisingly.

 

Almost didn't put this behind a spoiler but thought better of it at the last moment. I kind of hope the prophesy doesn't fully come to fruition in the end because I'd like to see Myrcella actually mature to adulthood. But both those kids seem sadly doomed, doomed, doomed.

[WindyNights]

Something I've always wondered about but how would the 5 year timeskip have worked?

Tommen would've been 14 and Myrcella would've been 15 so would they have already been married when we see them again?

And would we have skipped straight to Stannis in Winterfell victorious/lying dead at Winterfell or would he really have been campaigning in the North or 5 years?

And would Shireen have made it to 16? I would've loved to see Shireen at that age.

I doubt we'll get past another 2 years.

Edited February 11, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

So Which Tyler actually brought up something that has bugged the hell out of me about the whole "Winter that last for years" thing and that actually makes the whole "Maybe there are 15 or 16 lunar cycles in a year, so all the kids are older than they are in our world" thing even worse.  

 

Whereas an endless summer wouldn't be as problematic and there are areas of the world that never experience seasonal shutdowns in growing seasons and areas of the world that really don't have winter end the only thing that makes the "unending winter" survivable on any mass scale are goods being shipped in from areas that aren't kill-everything-levels-of-cold.   As is currently happening with Stannis's men in the freezing cold....you run out of food with a blinding a quickness when you can't grow anything at all.  

 

But that makes the whole "Nine year summer, three year winter" even less likely to be survivable in the age before you could preserve much if years are longer. 

 

It's one of those parts of the story I just have to will myself to go with and have thought things like, "Well, maybe Dorne and the warmer climates supply food...."  but the story is making a big ass deal about sea voyages being too perilous and winter stores being depleted and winter isn't there yet.  They did talk about planting and hoping to get one more harvest in (suggesting that autumn drags on for quite a long time) ....but how is everyone either not dead, or a freaking cannibal after even one of these winters?  

 

Martin could clear up his "the kids are too young" problem with exactly one line about someone like Arya counting how many moons it had been since her last name day and realizing it's her birthday...and then just make that number higher than 12.  "It had been sixteen moons since her last name day" blah blah blah...there, you aged your kids up without having to break your world.  

 

But why isn't that world broken by these "Oh it was a nine year winter" anyway?  On the one hand, it's a neat way to explain why this world is not really advancing technologically. 

 

In other news, is the rest of this book in fucking Mereen?  (she asks with all the enthusiasm that "fucking Mereen" implies).  

[Mya Stone]

No shimpy. It's not.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Well, 4 of the remaining 6 chapters are in Meereen(I still associate Dany with Meereen).

[Terra Nova]

Well, it seems Essos doesn't suffer so harshly in winter (and the Free Cities are in fact in full Renaissance), so food may be shipped from here, since autumn is the season with the most dangerous storms.

Or one can imagine short periods of milder winter, just like in normal cases, but long enough to allow one harvest every now and then. After all, the kidnapping of Lyanna took place in the year of False Spring, so it seems to me that towards the end winters are milder, enough to be mistaken for a real change of season.

I would say Martin was quite vague so the reader can fabricate his own justification, provided he doesn't look too carefully. For example, ok, we can accept that Westerosi societycan endure winters. But wildlife? Most of that inthe North doesn't seem that prepared for an Arctic scenario, how do they survive?

As for your last question... *trollface* we would never spoil you the surprise!

ETA ops, too late ^^' well, there is that other thing you were fretting about, so at least one chapter is not in Meereen

Edited February 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Oh god, that's right.  Jon needs to be murdered still.  

 

Oy.  

[mac123x]

I  think one year on Planetos = 1 Earth year mainly because children hit puberty in the 12-15 year range, about where you'd expect.  This could be fudged by claiming that their biology is different and they have longer childhoods, but it runs into the same problem - you've got adolescents getting married and leading armies.

 

Whereas an endless summer wouldn't be as problematic and there are areas of the world that never experience seasonal shutdowns in growing seasons and areas of the world that really don't have winter end the only thing that makes the "unending winter" survivable on any mass scale are goods being shipped in from areas that aren't kill-everything-levels-of-cold.   As is currently happening with Stannis's men in the freezing cold....you run out of food with a blinding a quickness when you can't grow anything at all. 

 

But that makes the whole "Nine year summer, three year winter" even less likely to be survivable in the age before you could preserve much if years are longer.

 

GRRM does try to address this a few times. 

 

1.  Back in CoK, Bran presided over a harvest festival, and one of the issues discussed with the minor lords was making sure they were setting aside enough of their harvests.  Left unaddressed is just how the hell you preserve grain, meat, and vegetables during an age before pest-control. 

2.  Show!Littlefinger (I don't remember if he said this in the books) tells the Small Council that they've got adequate stores to survive a 5 year winter, and if it lasts longer there will just be fewer peasants.  Pretty grim, but it implies there can be quite a die-back every winter.

3.  Winterfell has it's glass-gardens that can continue to grow food.

4.  Dorne and parts of the Reach are probably still fertile.  Jon even contemplates shipping fresh fruit from Dorne to minimize the inevitable scurvy.

5.  The Wall seems to have the best survival chance, ironically, since they have a nice big icy refrigeration system available.

 

If it weren't for the wars, they could probably muddle through, though with some (possibly severe) depopulation issues.

 

In other news, is the rest of this book in fucking Mereen?  (she asks with all the enthusiasm that "fucking Mereen" implies).

 

Ouch, I seem to have bitten my tongue. 

These are the good Meereen chapters!  In that something other than Dany pining for Daario happens.  King deposed, dragons loosed, Quentin fried like a calamari!  Plus Dany's vision quest and all it's implications.

[vibeology]

Power through Shimpy! We believe in you!

 

As for the seasons I try not to think about it too much because it really doesn't make much sense. I assume that in Winter everywhere in Westeros gets colder, but I also assume there comes a point where colder is relative. The North is Canada-like with most areas getting some serious winter and a few costal places staying a bit milder because of the sea. Below the neck it varies, again depending on geography with it getting a bit warmer the farther south you go. I imagine that King's Landing gets some heavy snow and cold weather, but they also get some milder days. By the time you hit The Reach, its cold enough that you're not growing anything but harsh cold and heavy snow are rare. In Dorne, its noticeably colder than Summer and really cold snaps can ruin crops, but they're still growing some food. The problem with that is transporting food from Dorne gets harder and harder the farther North you go, one part of the kingdom can't farm enough to feed everyone if they don't have some stores of their own and the seas are probably pretty awful in Winter too.

 

I never imagined a regular winter was devastating for Westeros. The smallfolk probably take the worst of it and the North gets the worst and longest winter, but a regular winter can be survivable. The Long Night, though, I assumed was a very different thing and that's what probably coming. Its a total devastation, snow in Dorne, no sun problem that really is going to cause huge death and destruction. Of course, that's just how I rationalize it but I know that there are still holes in my headcanon.

[Haleth]

It always struck me as strange that Essos doesn't suffer nearly as harsh winters. Why, George?

As much as I'm looking forward to discussing the last few chapters I'm sad that we're coming to the end. This has been a fun experience reading it together.

[Ashara Payne]

As much as I'm looking forward to discussing the last few chapters I'm sad that we're coming to the end. This has been a fun experience reading it together.

Shimpy can always go back and re-read the thread, including spoilers, and potentially discuss things ad nauseam. Alternatively/additionally, she could read & discuss the Rogue Prince and The Princess and the Queen. Not an awful lot of mystery/speculation to be had from those, though, but they are worth reading for the history perspective.

[WindyNights]

It always struck me as strange that Essos doesn't suffer nearly as harsh winters. Why, George?

As much as I'm looking forward to discussing the last few chapters I'm sad that we're coming to the end. This has been a fun experience reading it together.

Why is that weird? The northernmost part of Westeros is only as high up as the Vale and we spend most of the time in southern Essos which is parallel to Dorne.

http://m.imgur.com/pTvP6

Shimpy can always go back and re-read the thread, including spoilers, and potentially discuss things ad nauseam. Alternatively/additionally, she could read & discuss the Rogue Prince and The Princess and the Queen. Not an awful lot of mystery/speculation to be had from those, though, but they are worth reading for the history perspective.

There's also the new TWOW chapters

[stillshimpy]

I really have had a lot of fun doing this with you guys and am really thankful to have had the experience with you all.  Plus, just on a personal note, having to wait until the Spring to put our house on the market, so that I can join my husband in California has made for some lonely times.  My friends here have been great about getting together, etc.  but still...being alone in the house, in the dead of winter? And keep in mind, I'm a workout fiend, so I never run short of endorphins ....but it has been depressing as hell.  My husband and I are one of those weird couples who just really like each other on top of everything else, so we make each other laugh every day and ...well, not to be drippy, but you all have been the reason that hasn't been missing from my life.  So thank you.  

 

Sorry for sentimentality detour :-)  I will say something scathing, regarding flightless birds or some such soon.   

 

I did read a few sentences into the next Selmy chapter last night, enough to discover that the Brave Beasts are apparently ready to go for Hizzy's tender bits or something and opted out for the evening.  Partially because I've discovered a problem with the way in which I've approached the Mereen chapters (as primarily dead boring) so I haven't actually kept track of the various forces in the way I'm going to need to, quite clearly.  

 

Second Sons, led by Brown Ben (who inordinately pissed off Danaerys by...being what she knew he was...?)  ....The Brave Beasts who always wear different animal helmets so no one knows their identities -- and this is why I'm bringing that up -- why is that again?  

 

I didn't imagine I'd reach a point in the story where it was going to revolve around this overly-mannered structure of fighting forces.  Gold Company, founded by the Bittersteel branch of the Targaryen ....tree....Second Sons, are sellswords that Daario brought with him.....The Brave Beasts are...Freedmen?  I can't freaking recall.  The Unsullied...who, yeah I know who they are and I was tickled to see that term bleed over into another fandom based on a book series...where I've read the series.  Congratulations, you've conquered the internet and influenced its lexicon.  

 

Anyway, then there are the Yunkai...and Qarth...and Pretty Merris who fights with the Tattered Prince who is part of the Yunkai forces? 

 

Sorry to do the world-building check, but it's sort of difficult to miss that the crescendo of this story appears to largely be based in Mereen (should have known from the title, but so much of it was ass boring, I thought maybe....another dragon somewhere....? I hoped, okay, I hoped).  

Edited February 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

I second Ashara's suggestion for the Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince, with three caveat, as much as I liked them:

 

- these 'stories' are actually a very compressed retelling of the wars and the lived of some Targ; there are dozens of characters, some of them disappearing three paragraphs after their introduction; 

 

- there are not stories as much as some excerpt from a book written by an archmaester, so the language is even more faux-archaic than usual and, well, they're written just like some ponderous history book;

 

- I'm sure I am accurate when I say that 90% of these characters are gigantic, unsympathetic, irredemable POS. Not joking. And the worst thing for me is that while reading I approved some of their deeds D:

 

ETA: Shimpy, aaaaw ^^

 

The Beasts wear masks in an attempt to make them unrecognizable whn patrolling the streets, so that they cannot be shivved in taverns and such during their free time. But pretty early in the book Dany decided to withdraw them anyway and keep them in her pyramid, so now it adds an unwanted layer of suspect, as Barry keeps noticing. Besides, now they clearly show themselves to be some private militia of the Shavepate, obeying him and him alone.

 

As for the cities: Yunkai made an example of Astapor going full genocidal and now intends to do the same with Meereen. Some of her leaders think otherwise, but sellswords like Bloodbeard now just want the plunder, like some Yunkish lords. Some of them, those responsible for the killing of Groleo surely, want to goad Meereen in open battle so to sack the city, others bide their time waiting for a huge fleet from Volantis to arrive (and very likely to reclaim most of the gold of the sack for themselves). There are also news about legions coming from New Ghis, Tolos, Mantarys, all bent on crushing Daenerys. Qarth, after Xaro's attempt, had a fleet blocking the Bay but they haven't been mentioned after the treaty.

 

Meris is one of the champions of the Tattered Prince, exactly, who now claims wanted to defect to Dany from the beginning - a guy I consider much more dangerous than others -. Brown Ben Plumm, as Tyrion noticed, seems to be again not so sure about his allegiance and Tyrion plans to make him turn against Yunkai - clearly in an attempt to win Dany's favor -.

 

As for the title, well, there's Aegon returned from the underworld XD And everyone is 'dancing' with them, trying to woo them or fight them or use them for their own purposes - Martin gives 'to dance' a lot of different meanings (since the first prologue, when Waymar says to the Other: 'then, dance with me!')

Edited February 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Avaleigh]

In addition to recommending the Rogue Prince and Princess and the Queen, I'd recommend reading parts of TWOIAF if there's anything more about the world of ASOIAF that you're interested in. I couldn't read it straight through but I did jump around to the stuff I wanted to learn more about (mainly the backstories on all of the great houses, the long night, Asshai, and Old Valyria.) There's definitely some interesting info regarding timelines and family trees. I only wish that they'd given us the family trees of the other five great houses. 

[WindyNights]

I still recommend TWOW chaps while you know what's going on in Meereen.

Basically Daenerys has brought all of Western Essos against her in Meereen.

Team Daenerys:

Over 10,000 unsullied led by Greyworm

4,000 Brazen Beasts- An army of shavepates ( Citizens of Meereen that switched to Dany's side and who shave their winged haircuts off to appeal to her) and former slaves

500 Stormcrows led by Daario

6,000 freedmen divided into 3 companies

Over 500 Second Sons led by Brown Ben Plumm - he defected to Yunkai and Tyrion wants him to defect back

Hundreds of pit fighters

Team Western Essos-

2,000 Windblown led by the Tattered Prince

New Ghis- 36, 000 legion soldiers divided into 6 companies, 100 armored war elephants and 3 war galleys

40 Yunkai commanders, each having "20 or 200 or 2000" slave soldiers and 6 trebuchets

3,000 Company of the Cat led by Bloodbeard

800 Long Lances led by Gylo Regan

And Qarth with a Qartheen fleet and Qartheen camel corps

Other

300 Elyrian Crossbowmen

Tolosi slingers

Armies that have not yet arrived in Meereen:

A Dothraki hoard allied to Yunkai

The Volantene fleet that's been delayed because it had to drop off the Golden Company

And the ironborn fleet led by Victarion Greyjoy

Edited February 11, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

A Dothraki horse allied to Yunkai

 

D: It's the Stallion That Mounts the World! Run for your lives!

 

(the best typo I've seen in a while ^.^ )

Edited February 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

Second Sons, led by Brown Ben Plumm. Technically on the side of Yunkai, but seems uncertain. Could defect back to Daenerys.

 

The Windblown, led by the Tattered Prince (an ex-Prince of Pentos). On the side of Yunkai, for now. Pretty Meris is one of his champions.

 

The Stormcrows, led by Daario Naharis. The walking STI is currently a prisoner of Yunkai, alongside Dany's bloodrider and Hero, an Unsullied.

 

The Company of the Cat, led by Bloodbeard. On the side of Yunkai. He wants to provoke Meereen into battle and sack it. Bloodbeard and the Tattered Prince despise one another.

 

The Brazen Beasts, originally led by Skahaz mo Kandaq (the Shavepate). Made up of freedmen and shavepates (citizens who accepted Dany's rule and have shaved off their traditional Ghiscari hairstyles). Now under the control (officially, at least) of Hizdahr's cousin Marghaz, but apparently still loyal to the Shavepate. They wear the masks so that they can remain anonymous and thus not be murdered by the Sons of the Harpy when off-duty.

 

The Golden Company, led by 'Homeless' Harry Strickland. Founded by Bittersteel, legitimised bastard son of Aegon Targaryen IV. Currently invading Westeros with 'Aegon Targaryen VI' and Jon Connington.

 

I think that's a list of the most important groups. Could be some that I've left off, I'm not certain.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Terra Nova and WindyNights.

Edited February 11, 2016 by WSmith84

[stillshimpy]

Holy crow, you guys are awesome.  Thank you, because I couldn't for the life of me remember what part of the world the Storm Crows belonged to and had them confused with the Clans from the Vale.  

 

Thank you so much for Mereen:  The Cliffnotes and decoder ring version.  

 

Yeah, the thing that made me stop and know that "Oh man,  I need to...study?!? ....first"  was when one of the Beasts talks about Hizdahr's reaction to the head and that his relatives being returned decidedly less dead than headless fellow, that didn't actually track with me:  If they kill the King's relatives, even if they are hostages, it's war.   Even Catelyn Stark got that and Cersei the Unsuited also did.  

 

So that didn't prove anything to me other than "So....they were careful not to determine Hizdahr's reaction to that extent...but that doesn't mean he was in on it."   Selmy ....who, he seems like a very nice man...but intrigue does not seem to be his strong suit.   Someone here commented that he's so much more ordinary than they were expecting and that's been kind of my reaction to him also.  It did explain a scene that I'd never fully understood:  the series scene in the Throne Room where....well, among other things, Ned ends up with Knifey, the Blade Behind it All at his throat.    The actor playing Selmy played him as being so confused as to what he was supposed to do in that moment.   Like he was almost feebleminded, honestly and Ned shouts out "Ser Barristan is a good man, an honest man, do not hurt him!"  (as the actor looks like he's actually been teleported into the scene with no clue as to what has happened, I mean, he played that reaction shot for Martians.  Nearsighted Martians.   

 

So that when Joffrey and Cersei dismiss him from the Kingsguard I ended up thinking, "Hey, good call, because he's not exactly sharp as razor, is he?"  

 

But it never occurred to me in later years that that was the correct assessment of his understanding of palace intrigues.  I just assumed the actor, who hadn't been given fuck-all to do, just made a meal out of the one thing they gave him to do. 

 

Just saying, my first thought in that chapter was "oh no, not again" because....his advice to Quentin was NOT exactly the best advice "Run the fuck away, immediately!" was not  the stuff of good counsel and it will be a bloody miracle if he hasn't gotten the kid killed already, seeing as his "okay, but first, let me steal a dragon...with the help of a character who is never mentioned except to stress how vicious she is, what could go wrong with that?"  Have Ned's Ghost in on the planning session, Quentin, terrifyingly, he had better instincts than that.   

 

So thank you for the refresher course.   I was going to run a term search on the various forces, but then I'd have spent the rest of the day wishing it was acceptable to drink heavily by oneself, and that seemed a bad plan.  

 

So it seemed more like poor Selmy was being easily manipulated and that it is precisely that he is a good man, an honest man....that was going to go quite badly.  

Edited February 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Andeleisha]

But you're not alone! You have your nice friends on the internet to keep you company :) My boss tends to frown on me opening wine this early but I can be sneaky if we can keep reading! 

[Terra Nova]

Ian McElhinney (Barry) is actually one of the actors that read the books (I would say he falls in the 'fan' category); In fact, he wrote a letter to the showrunners after he read the scripts and realized they killed off Barry in Episode 4, explaining why according to him was a mistake. D&D have later stated that the letter "just made us want to kill him more" ^^'

 

The only problem is though that Dance was published after the end of the shooting for Season 1; so either McElhinney chose to play Barry in a way he deemed consistent with the book counterpart, or the showrunners told him to (not sure about this, since they never looked like actually knowing what to do with his character. Show!Barry was on screen, but with very few lines and even less to do, then got stabbed in an alley like a noob).

Edited February 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

Just saying, my first thought in that chapter was "oh no, not again" because....his advice to Quentin was NOT exactly the best advice "Run the fuck away, immediately!" was not  the stuff of good counsel

 

I thought Barristan's advice to Quentyn was pretty good.  "There are exactly 3 of you.  You tried and failed to break Dany's engagement to Hizzy.  The only person who was on your side flew off on her dragon to points unknown and will be returning on the 4th of who knows.  Since Dornish are well known for their skills with poison, you'd make an excellent scape-goat for the tainted-locust plot.  Basically, GTFO if you want to live."

[stillshimpy]

I can't agree with that:  fleeing entirely is what would make everyone believe that Quentin was behind the poisoning.  Attempting to make himself useful in the situation would have been the better call, I think.   It's true that hanging around with the hope of marrying Dany was off the table, but the better bet would be to try and make an alliance with Mereen rather than run for the hills.  Running for the hills is like taking out a megaphone and yelling, "WE DID THIS!"  

 

Don't go back to your rooms immediately, or approached Hizdahr directly, expressing your sorrow...pledging the swords of Dorne to his cause.   

 

Fleeing would make him look guilty in a way that staying wouldn't and he's the son of a ruling prince, the same thing applies to him that applies to why Hizzy's relatives were safe:  You don't get to kill the King's relatives unless you want to declare war.  

 

But we'll see, I just thought that was an ill-considered piece of advice and that Quentin's "Uh, we can go to other rooms???" reaction was the better bet.   Plus, Selmy's striding right over to him was sort of dunderheaded too.  It was like Ned-the-show version "Oh let them look" ....even Ned Stark had more sense than that.  Not much, but more than that. 

 

I was further convinced of that when the next Mereen opens with Selmy apparently being asked to participate in dethroning Hizdahr.  Quentyn would have done better to go with his first impulse...not go directly back to his rooms there, and try to wait and see.  The time that he should have left was when Dany married.    Not having done that, he should have approached Hizdahr afterward to offer him help.   

 

I just thought that Selmy's advice was good in a very simplistic way, but without doing the old chess thing of seeing the moves ahead.   

 

Now there is something that influences my take on that though season five

Quentyn doesn't exist in the show.  No way is that kid getting out of there with a dragon.  If he got away with a dragon, he'd be too important a figure for the story to lose.  So it's sort of a forgone conclusion that Quentyn is either going to end up being ransomed back to his father, never having gotten near a dragon.  Or he's going to get caught up in the Mereen civil war that seems about to happen.   He's a dead dude walking, though, because the series literally just took pass on including him and they didn't make some composite character for him.   I probably should have guessed that Hizdahr was about to die too, because in the show...Hizzy's dead, but I thought he might make it out of this book alive, at least.

Edited February 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Alayne Stone]

Quentyn is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't because even if he tries to leave, how far do we really think he'd even get what with all those armies sitting outside the city walls?

 

I think it'd be fun to read the preview chapters released for TWOW if only because I myself have never gone into that much depth in discussing them. But that's obviously only if Shimpy feels so inclined to read them.

 

Spoiler not for Shimpy:

I have to say I'm a little surprised the idea that Quentyn might be eaten has never crossed her mind.

 

And ... just keep reading, Shimpy. You're almost there. ;)

[stillshimpy]

Hey is there a release date yet for Winds of Winter?  

 

 

 

Quentyn is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't because even if he tries to leave, how far do we really think he'd even get what with all those armies sitting outside the city walls?

 

Yeah, sending the poor guy there with so few companions was always going to result in his being more than a little humped if the answer to the "So your brother and my sister had a marriage pact....and for whatever reason the guy arranging that didn't also promise you to someone...which is going to make you feel like the forgotten Targ as it stands but....be mine??"  was what any reasonable person could expect :  Then why didn't your father have some super-secret ally take us in and shelter us when we were beggars?  He's already a shitty ally, thanks anyway. 

 

They needed a strong contingency plan and I do hope "steal a dragon" wasn't always it because....yeah.  Unless Quentyn has some mad dragon taming skills, even if he gets anywhere near one....Dany only succeeded because she couldn't be burned to a crisp.   

 

I mean, unless the other dragons are like my dogs, where they're both very sweet and submissive and basically like anyone who gives them a treat ....and I don't think they are meant to be...I can't see this as a viable plan.  It just seems like "Oh man, there are SO many  ways for this poor kid to get killed now.  So, so many.  More than there were than if he'd stayed put which is sort of an accomplishment, but not of the good kind." 

 

He'd have done better to go to the second sons and pay them to defect back to Mereen's side, for goodness sake.  Not that that would have actually been possible, but it is slightly better than a planned dragon abduction facilitated by a vicious killer, you've already betrayed once.   

 

Oh god.  I'm actually losing track of all the ways he's most likely to die in, because there are so many. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

Hey is there a release date yet for Winds of Winter?  

Lol, not even close. ;)

[WSmith84]

Hey is there a release date yet for Winds of Winter?  

 

George had a sit down with his publishers and editor last year, telling him if he got the book to them by October, they could have the hardback out before season 6 of the show. George didn't meet the deadline, and the publishers revealed that they actually could do it if he got them the book by the New Year. George didn't meet that deadline either. So all we know is that we won't get it before season 6 of the show (April). I'm very disappointed by this, as I don't have the energy in my soul to avoid spoilers until the books come out, but I really don't want to watch the dross that the show has become.

[WindyNights]

Nope. No release date yet. The more optimistic ones think it'll be out near the end of this year. The most cynical think GRRM will die before TWOW is released so.....never.

All we know for sure is that season 6 will release before GRRM finishes his book and probably spell out Jon Snow's parentage before GRRM has the chance to.

[mac123x]

Hey is there a release date yet for Winds of Winter?

 

I think the publisher said:  "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.  When the seas go dry, and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves..."  I might be misremembering.

[Avaleigh]

Nope. No release date yet. The more optimistic ones think it'll be out near the end of this year. The most cynical think GRRM will die before TWOW is released so.....never.

All we know for sure is that season 6 will release before GRRM finishes his book and probably spell out Jon Snow's parentage before GRRM has the chance to.

I think we'll get TWoW. It's A Dream of Spring that I doubt we'll ever get. 

 

I'm fine with the show giving me the basics of the ending. I'd prefer to read the books first but at least the showrunners are giving us an ending. 

 

I don't feel that the endings are going to be wildly different in terms of the basics. I think that whoever wins the Iron Throne will be the same, the deaths will essentially be the same, any potential pairings, AAR, the second long night, that sort of thing.

[WindyNights]

I think we'll get TWoW. It's A Dream of Spring that I doubt we'll ever get.

I'm fine with the show giving me the basics of the ending. I'd prefer to read the books first but at least the showrunners are giving us an ending.

I don't feel that the endings are going to be wildly different in terms of the basics. I think that whoever wins the Iron Throne will be the same, the deaths will essentially be the same, any potential pairings, AAR, the second long night, that sort of thing.

GRRM has already said that the show is diverging a lot from the books and that it'll keep diverging.

The deaths will not be the same. GRRM's already confirmed it.

Here's what GRRM had to say:

So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so.

IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN ALL FIVE SEASONS AND READ ALL FIVE BOOKS, STOP HERE!

Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. Balon Greyjoy, on the flip side, is dead in the books, alive on the show. His brothers Euron Crow's Eye and Victarion have not yet been introduced (will they appear? I ain't saying). Meanwhile Jhiqui, Aggo, Jhogo, Jeyne Poole, Dalla (and her child) and her sister Val, Princess Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Lord Wyman Manderly, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Brown Ben Plumm, the Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Bloodbeard, Griff and Young Griff, and many more have never been part of the show, yet remain characters in the books. Several are viewpoint characters, and even those who are not may have significant roles in the story to come in THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING.

Edited February 11, 2016 by WindyNights

[Avaleigh]

GRRM has already said that the show is diverging a lot from the books and that it'll keep diverging.

The deaths will not be the same. GRRM's already confirmed it.

Here's what GRRM had to say:

IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN ALL FIVE SEASONS AND READ ALL FIVE BOOKS, STOP HERE!

Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. Balon Greyjoy, on the flip side, is dead in the books, alive on the show. His brothers Euron Crow's Eye and Victarion have not yet been introduced (will they appear? I ain't saying). Meanwhile Jhiqui, Aggo, Jhogo, Jeyne Poole, Dalla (and her child) and her sister Val, Princess Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Lord Wyman Manderly, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Brown Ben Plumm, the Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Bloodbeard, Griff and Young Griff, and many more have never been part of the show, yet remain characters in the books. Several are viewpoint characters, and even those who are not may have significant roles in the story to come in THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING.

Regarding deaths of characters--book and show spoilers.

 

I will be very surprised if the show keeps characters alive who are ultimately going to die in the books. Basically, I feel like if Dany is marked for death at the end of ADoS then she'll die on the show as well. If Jaime dies in the books I don't think that the show is going to keep him alive. I feel the same about all of the major characters.

 

The show is basically ahead of the books save the King's Landing and Ironborn parts of the story so of course they've already reached some of the more important deaths. I know there are people who think that Stannis and Shireen are both somehow going to survive but I'll be shocked if they end up living especially when I feel like Patchface has already talked about Shireen's death in one of his songs.

 

The biggest change in terms of character death where I think it's possible that this guy might live in the books but not in the show is

Jorah. I will admittedly be pissed if he ends up becoming the 1000th LC of the Night's Watch in the books but not in the show.

Otherwise I don't think there are going to be that many differences as far as who's living and breathing at the end. The manner of death might change and the dialogue won't necessarily be the same ("Only Cat.") but for the most part I think we'll end up in the same place. D&D are taking a different road than GRRM but they're still going to end up in the same castle. GRRM's just taking the scenic route. 

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so that was interesting.  Ashara Dayne had a stillborn daughter?  Uh...which Stark is meant to have knocked her up?  Since it turns out that Brandon was at least a little gross, I somehow doubt he'd have had any qualms about boffing the girl his brother liked and he was headed somewhere when he got word about his father, or sister, or some damned relative that really should have just stayed the fuck home and done everyone a favor.  

 

Did Brandon Stark knock up Ashara Dayne?  How many siblings was poor Ned taking the fall for in terms of loss of honor?  Good gods.  Well hopefully Ned did at least get to have some fun, but I became incredibly suspicious when Barrstian Selmy thought Stark instead of Ned Stark and that's because...well Ned did the whole "went all white and went and forced the servants to shut up" to spare Catelyn's feelings and...it occurred to me "Oh fuck, why wouldn't he just tell her at that point if Ashara Dayne was the woman he'd boffed?   It's not like it's going to make it any worse, and she's dead for goodness sake (as far as anyone knows)...."  and...there's really only one way for it be made worse.  If it was his dead brother's betrayal that he was covering up so as not to let Cat be hurt by it on top of his death.  

 

Splendidly soapy shit you got going here, Martin. I have no idea who is meant to have gotten it on with who...whom.  Not sure, don't care right now.   Hats off to you on the twists in the tale, didn't see that one coming as a possibility at all It's cute that Barristan was in love with her too, I suppose.   Plus, the chapter practically spelled out that Rhaegar likely just freaking took Lyanna rather than her running away with him.   

 

Also, Rhaegar was planning to overthrow his dad?  Oh sevens hells for seven brothers, man.  The fuck?  It's nice of Martin to make the story that's in the past the more intriguing one on so many levels.   Poor fucking Ned.  Brandon Stark was not above fucking Lords daughters, which we've established.  

 

I wonder if Ned Stark's last thoughts were "My fucking siblings, Man.  Are we ever going to have words now".  

 

And I still can't tell if Hizdahr is the Harpy, but it sure sounds like it and then Quentyn really should have hidden his ass with a quickness, because how the fuck did the Dragons get loose, Quentyn?????

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Ashara Payne]

I could have sworn I'd seen some mention of the Stormcrows possibly being connected to the Vale tribes, but I can't find it to quote now. But that was in Season 1 of the show when they met Tyrion, I believe. Kudos to everyone who remembers all the Meereen details. I couldn't. Presumably it's not that important, seeing as it was left out of the show, but we'll see.

Are all the TWOW preview chapters still up on George's site? I seem to remember going all over the web to find them after first reading. Isn't there one that he read out loud to an audience who weren't allowed to record him?

If it's as long as Dance he could have split in two (as was done with Storm and Dance in the UK-dunno if that was done in the U.S.), and published the first half already.

Maybe he likes to go back and change things, though, until he's happy with it.

Maybe he's a perfectionist.

Never a good thing IMHO, being of that bent myself; although for me it's more about having my record/CD collection in alphabetical order than producing a work of art.

Haha, shimpy, I'd not read your last post when I posted the above, but it made me chuckle. Will we ever have all the answers? I bloody well hope so! This is why theories abound. Nothing more frustrating than when things aren't explained.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ashara Payne

[WindyNights]

@avaleigh I doubt (not for shimpy)

Shireen will make it. She has like a 90% chance of dying. Stannis on the other hand, I'm kinda sure will live but not as King or lord of the Stormlands but as Lord-Commander of the Night's Watch. There is a certain irony of Stannis and Jon meet each other again as King and Lord-Commander but from the opposite side. From what I've heard about season 6, it seems that Jon Snow is taking Stannis' role in the North so they had to cut Stannis' plot line short.

@shimpy Brandon Stark was on his way to Riverrun get married to Catelyn when he found his sister was kidnapped by Rhaegar.

And right now I'm on the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and then seduced her" train. But If he skipped the seduced her part then there is a certain parallel to draw between Jon and Daenerys and Tyrion if he's also a Targ. They'd all be Targaryen children born of rape and also the people who inevitably save the world.

[Haleth]

Wow. The GoT Facebook page just posted a bunch of season 6 photos. Spoilers galore!

[WindyNights]

@Ashara They're not all on GRRM's site anymore. Only the new Alayne chapter is there.

You can find Theon I, Arianne I, Mercy I on here as well as Alayne I:

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/twow

I could have sworn I'd seen some mention of the Stormcrows possibly being connected to the Vale tribes, but I can't find it to quote now. But that was in Season 1 of the show when they met Tyrion, I believe. Kudos to everyone who remembers all the Meereen details. I couldn't. Presumably it's not that important, seeing as it was left out of the show, but we'll see.

Are all the TWOW preview chapters still up on George's site? I seem to remember going all over the web to find them after first reading. Isn't there one that he read out loud to an audience who weren't allowed to record him?

If it's as long as Dance he could have split in two (as was done with Storm and Dance in the UK-dunno if that was done in the U.S.), and published the first half already.

Maybe he likes to go back and change things, though, until he's happy with it.

Maybe he's a perfectionist.

Never a good thing IMHO, being of that bent myself; although for me it's more about having my record/CD collection in alphabetical order than producing a work of art.

Yep GRRM frequently goes back on his chapters and changes things. And sometimes he entirely replaces chapters. He's a huge perfectionist.

He's said that he has thousands of unused pages that he's scrapped.

[Ashara Payne]

And right now I'm on the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and then seduced her" train. But If he skipped the seduced her part then there is a certain parallel to draw between Jon and Daenerys and Tyrion if he's also a Targ. They'd all be Targaryen children born of rape and also the people who inevitably save the world.

You think so? I'm not so sure. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon somehow brokers a peace with the Others, but I'm not convinced that Tyrion or Dany will be involved. They probably will, but I wouldn't say it was inevitable.

Wow. The GoT Facebook page just posted a bunch of season 6 photos. Spoilers galore!

They're also on makinggameofthrones.com

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/exclusive-pictures-season-6

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ashara Payne

[WSmith84]

Many readers long suspected that Harrenhal was an attempt by Rhaegar to remove, or begin the process of removing, his father from power. Which makes his crowning of Lyanna even more baffling because it alienates the Starks and Baratheons (and potentially their Tully and Arryn allies), not to mention that it humiliates Elia and angers the Martells. I mean, Christ, is there a way that he could have annoyed more potential allies and future subjects in a single move?

 

I personally lean towards the Green Grace being the Harpy, with Hizdahr either doing her bidding or being manipulated by her. Here are some poisoning theories for you to chew over:

 

Hizdahr did it, intending to kill Dany

The Shavepate did it, attempting to kill Hizdahr or in an attempt to poison anyone to sow discord between Dany and Hizzy

Hizdahr, or someone in his camp, did it, not in an attempt to kill Dany, but to slip her an aborficant in case she was carrying Daario's child

One of the Dornishmen, Drinkwater most probably, did it in an attempt to kill Hizzy making her free to marry Quentyn

 

I have to say I love the fight between Barry and Khrazz in that chapter. It's actually one of my favourite chapters of the book.

[WindyNights]

You think so? I'm not so sure. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon somehow brokers a peace with the Others, but I'm not convinced that Tyrion or Dany will be involved. They probably will, but I wouldn't say it was inevitable.

They're also on makingofgameofthrones

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/exclusive-pictures-season-6

Daenerys will definitely be involved. She has dragons after all and they're the only things that can kill the Others and wights en masse aside from wildfire. Edited February 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[Ashara Payne]

Daenerys will definitely be involved. She has dragons after all and they're the only things that can kill the Others and wights en masse aside from wildfire.

I hope so. I'd love to see dragons torching them. Which reminds me, I still need to watch the latest Hobbit movie, and Star Wars.

[stillshimpy]

Oh God, the start of this chapter is insanely painful.  Quentyn wanted a dragon so he could find Danaerys and win her?  This is almost physically painful.  And he's a virgin, in love with his friends sister.  

 

So he's honorable as hell and trying to do the right thing.  

 

At least he doesn't have a dog, so there's that. 

 

ETA:  Oh for fuck's sake.  The word is "dog" ?  

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Oh God, the start of this chapter is insanely painful. Quentyn wanted a dragon so he could find Danaerys and win her? This is almost physically painful. And he's a virgin, in love with his friends sister.

So he's honorable as hell and trying to do the right thing.

At least he doesn't have a dog, so there's that.

ETA: Oh for fuck's sake. The word is "dog" ?

Here's hoping GRRM never had a dog I mean turkey before

Edited February 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Oh God, that was every bit as awful as I thought it might be and managed to be a fuckload worse.  Poor Quentyn.  There's no way any of them get out there alive.  His poor friends, who part of what made me wonder about Selmy's intelligence was he seemed to misjudge them, because they'd been through hell to get him where he was too.  

 

Poor fucked, loyal friends who probably just roasted right along with Quentyn.  

 

Annnnd...now it's a Jon chapter?  Yeah, not doing that tonight.  If that's not the chapter where Jon meets with Melisandre's vision I'll be a turkey in Mereen.  

 

Oh fuck.  Poor Quentyn.  

[stillshimpy]

Argh.  Yeah, peace out for the night y'all.  I'm going to go do something relatively cheerful.  Like watch Wit or something. 

[WindyNights]

"Oh."

And in that moment, Quentyn realized he was not some destined hero.

Argh. Yeah, peace out for the night y'all. I'm going to go do something relatively cheerful. Like watch Wit or something.

Understandable.

I sometimes forget horrifying he whole chapter is.

But I do kind of remember reading this chapter and thinking Quentyn was going to actually get the dragon because the title of the chapter was "The Dragontamer".

[stillshimpy]

Well I was just telling Mya this over on Facebook -- and after this I truly am going to go have a glass wine, or a piece cake....OR BOTH .... -- but Quentyn's arc is all about how incredibly superficial that world is and he stands in direct contrast to Daario.  He's got no flash, but he has good substance, which never ends well for the people of this tale.  

 

But yeah, realizing that it was almost certainly Brandon Stark who had sex with Ashara Payne was just incredibly heart breaking too.  He told the servants to shut up so that Catelyn would never learn that Ashara had had a daughter and thereby figure it out.  Brandon fucked Ashara Payne basically on the way to his own wedding, right?  What a charmer he was.  Ugh.  Yes, yes, I know.  People didn't marry for love, they married for alliances, but maybe pick someone your brother didn't actively have a crush on, you fucktard.  The whole "only going by the last name" thing was what gave that away in the sentence before the daughter thing did.  

 

As I told Mya I hope Ned kicked Brandon's ass for like an eon in the Westerosi afterlife for giving Ned the gift that kept on giving.  Ned Stark....never got to have any fun of his own....spent most of his life covering for other people in that department.  

Edited February 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

And Quentin's death left me angry for a long time.  It wasn't so much that I loved his character - I remember just ranting to myself "oh, so because you don't want to kill off your main characters - you are introducing new ones, making me at least a little interested in them, just to kill them off?!?!?!?!"  Do you hate me? Why are you wasting my time!?!!?!?

 

And this was BEFORE I got to Jon's last chapter.

 

I was in a rage fit by the end of this book lol.

Well I was just telling Mya this over on Facebook -- and after this I truly am going to go have a glass wine, or a piece cake....OR BOTH .... -- but Quentyn's arc is all about how incredibly superficial that world is and he stands in direct contrast to Daario.  He's got no flash, but he has good substance, which never ends well for the people of this tale.  

 

But yeah, realizing that it was almost certainly Brandon Stark who had sex with Ashara Payne was just incredibly heart breaking too.  He told the servants to shut up so that Catelyn would never learn that Ashara had had a daughter and thereby figure it out.  He fucked Ashara Payne basically on the way to his own wedding, right?  What a charmer he was.  Ugh. 

 

Also Dany's rejection of Quentin while thinking "maybe if he looked like his friend" significantly contributed to my annoyance with her character and her arc.  It's like if you want me to care about her getting to Westerous - having her reject the Prince of Dorne was not the way to keep me on her side Martin.

[Haleth]

And that's why poor, tragic, honorable Prince Toast was not in the show.