Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

@Windy:

I'm not arguing that

greenseer magic will revive him: but that Bran in that dream awoke Jon's skinchanging abilities (I think this is a clear given) and that those will make him live in Ghost until he's revived by whoever comes by. This way he won't come back as a deranged Lord Stoneheart or some slobbering thrall in a voodoo fashion. He will be Jon again, whole and sound of body and mind. Maybe a tad pissed, but that's understandable

Not at all actually.

Jon will definitely not come back the same. The longer he stays in Ghost the more like a wolf he becomes. GRRM has already talked about how he doesn't like it when people come back the same. Jon's death is supposed to be huge a character turning event. I think he's going to believe that oaths just get in the way of defending the realm and start utilizing everything he has at his disposal which includes making shadowbabies with Melisandre and taking Winterfell for himself to unite the North against the WW as well as go on a revenge spree against the Boltons.

[Avaleigh]

I can't get over the idea of the "under the sea" that Patchface sings about possibly being Valyria now that it's been brought up. Makes me think the drowned men of the Iron Born might have more in common with the dragon lords of old than we know if that's the case. I wonder if this has ever been discussed on the Heresy threads at Westeros.org ...

I'm not at all sold on this person's theory overall but I do think that they're correct in the Under the Sea = Valyria and that it can be used to help figure out what Patchface is talking about. I'd be surprised if the red wedding is the only accurate prediction that he's made. 

 

Under the Sea the birds have scales for feathers. It's easy to see he's talking about dragons here. I think the line about how the serving men are crabs is talking about House Celtigar since that goes in line with their sigil and they served the Targaryens. Under the Sea, smoke rises in bubbles--I think that's definitely talking about the Doom and how Valyria is a smoking sea.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3c23du/spoilers_all_patchface_theory/

 

I do wonder why Melisandre thinks that Patchface is dangerous. 

[Maximum Taco]

@Windy:

 

I'm not arguing that

greenseer magic will revive him: but that Bran in that dream awoke Jon's skinchanging abilities (I think this is a clear given) and that those will make him live in Ghost until he's revived by whoever comes by. This way he won't come back as a deranged Lord Stoneheart or some slobbering thrall in a voodoo fashion. He will be Jon again, whole and sound of body and mind. Maybe a tad pissed, but that's understandable

 

I don't think that's how it works.

 

Jon can't just live in Ghost and then pop over to his own body. Once his consciousness moved to Ghost it would have no way of getting back. Ghost isn't the warg, Jon is. Also it's been well stated that once the human mind moves over to the animal it starts deteriorating to the point where it becomes simple. Orell's eagle remembers that it hates Jon, cause that was probably Orell's last thought, but it doesn't do the things that Orell did, or act like a human inside an eagle's body. It's just an eagle that hates Jon. Even Bran starts to get wild and feral after spending too much time in Summer and he has a body to return to. If Jon moves over to Ghost and somehow transfers his consciousness back to his own reanimated corpse there should be at least some lasting damages to his mind.

[Alayne Stone]

@ Maximum Taco:

I think the idea is that Jon's body will not be "dead" long enough for his consciousness to be kept from transferring back to his body when he's resurrected. He'll skinchange into Ghost, or he already has depending on the theory you believe, remain in Ghost's body for a time and then when he's given the kiss of life or choose your form of resurrection here, he'll skinchange back. I don't think it's that far of a stretch at all. Now obviously if his body was kept on ice for say ... several weeks, months, years, etc ... and he skinchanged back after the fact, then yes, I'd imagine his mind would start to deteriorate. If we're talking just a matter of days though, I see no reason why he can't come back as 100% Jon.

 

Off to read that reddit theory now. I love the theories people come up with for this series, even if they are crackpot like some of the secret Targaryen theories I've heard. You don't have to prescribe to them to at the very least find them entertaining.

[Ashara Payne]

I'm in no way trying to defend Rhaegar (I consider his favorable comparisons akin to comparing a non-violent 'date rapist' to a violent 'stranger rapist', assuming he didn't rape Lyanna), I heard/read a theory that he crowned her 'Queen of Love and Beauty' in order to provoke a drunken Robert into a duel. Robert was too drunk to react, though, so it backfired. Badly. Understatement of the story.

[WSmith84]

I'm in no way trying to defend Rhaegar (I consider his favorable comparisons akin to comparing a non-violent 'date rapist' to a violent 'stranger rapist', assuming he didn't rape Lyanna), I heard/read a theory that he crowned her 'Queen of Love and Beauty' in order to provoke a drunken Robert into a duel. Robert was too drunk to react, though, so it backfired. Badly. Understatement of the story.

 

TWOIAF spoiler

Well, he almost got Brandon Stark to duel him instead, so 'backfired' is probably an understatement.

 

Edit: Just noticed you said it was an understatement. Apparently I need to learn to read again.

Edited February 2, 2016 by WSmith84

[WindyNights]

@Alayne Stone Catelyn was only dead for 3 days

and look what happened to her and also

because (not for shimpy)

not even Beric came back as 100% Beric and he was dead for like minutes. Now true he's also in Ghost but Varamyr says that even in that state you start becoming less you and more of the beast. Jon will not be the same person when he comes back. Also I think it's reasonable to say from where Jon's story is headed that GRRM is using his death to fast pace his way through a lot of character development for Jon similar to what he did for Daenerys in her last chapter.

Edited February 2, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

While I don't exclude

Jon may behave differently, he won't be damaged as the others: Cat was displayed at the Twins for 3 days THEN thrown in the river where she stayed and rotted for an uncertain amount of time, only to be picked up in he area patrolled by the BwB, hundreds of leagues downstream and enough for fungi to grow on her brow. So much time that Thoros refused to even try to raise her again.
As for Beric, he died so many times, some of them included leaving his body hanging for at least one night and so on, so even in his case there must be some physiological consequence.

That's what I'm referring to,

in Jon's case this can be avoided through cryostasis and his mind in Ghost may avoid some of the worst consequences, like coming back demented or damaged like LS. Who is clearly a half-corpse, since whatever magic is involved it didn't restore her body. For all his skinchanging Bran is not much more feral, surely much less than Rickon. Varamyr skinchaged all his life and was still perfectly functional before his death. Also, after being in the wolf for weeks Bran was still able to fell his presence. I think the side-effects of occupying the animals are a little bit overstated

Edited February 2, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@Terra I literally looked it up. Cat was only dead for three days before she was resurrected. It's a twisted allusion to Jesus Christ.

And on the third days, she rose.

and enough for fungi to grow on her brow. So much time that Thoros refused to even try to raise her again.

I'm pretty sure you made this up/misremembering . I'm not sure how fast fungi grows but she was only in the water for a day or two.

Edited February 2, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

My bad, she was displayed only for one day before being thrown in the river. I was sure they were three, but I misremembered.

 

As for the 'made up' part, which one? The one where Beric refuses:

 

Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her.      (Feast, Brienne VIII)

 

or the one where Cat is rotting?

 

The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk    (Storm, Epilogue)

 

Her brow was mottled green and grey, spotted with the brown blooms of decay    (Feast, Brienne VIII)

 

My point is that there are

physical consequences to being dead, which in Jon's case will be avoided by the cold, and something else affecting the mind, which I'm sure will be avoided because he will temporarily stay in Ghost (Beric despite his multiple revivals was still a functioning man, depressed and conscious of what was losing at every death, but surely not a madman). That a change in his behavior will come is not impossible and even likely, but it won't be some earth-shattering change: it's not the way Martin works, character development may be sped up by external factors but I doubt we´ll ever see a character doing a 180° turn, it would be incredibly cheap. From a Doylist point of view we need the 'hero' to be functional and clearly not a demented half-corpse, so he will come back fine enough (I mean not a Khal Drogo or a Lady Stoneheart, to be clear). That the way he will come back will be affected by his abilities as skinchanger, which were acrivated by (maybe future) Bran, which in this case prevented his true death/an ineffectual revival. So Rhaegar may even have gone sowing the seed of his love in half the kingdom, success would not have been a given. Especially because he had more urgent matters to consider, like a bad case of hammer-through-chest. Rhaegar is just a tiny wheel in a big mechanism that allowed the 'hero' to be born, not the unsung savior of the world. He was wrong thrice about the prophecy, twice with attributing it to the right person and the third time thinking he would have had a Visenya, so I'm not even buying the 'he was right all along!' angle.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@Terra It was I who misremembered, my bad. I was talking about fungus on her brow. Ewwww.

Are you sure

Jon will be the Luke Skywalker type of hero? In this universe, a hero is someone who will stab his wife in the heart for the greater good as exemplified by AA. GRRM is clearly leading Jon down a path where he'll amass power for himself, find oaths to just be obstacles and start creating shadowbabies with Melisandre. Remember that GRRM thinks being dead should change you. Add in also that the prologue of ADWD says that warging into your animal when your body dies will leave you a little less human and a little more beast every day. I mean unless Melisandre brings Jon back very soon, it seems likely that Jon will have to spend a week or two in Ghost at the very least. And it's also possible that putting Jon back into his own body may bring Ghost along as separating the two minds may be impossible leaving them as one consciousness basically. I don't think Jon will come back a demented half-corpse just more of a ruthless anti-hero a la Stannis. This isn't so much a 180 as just where Jon's character was eventually heading just sped up drastically.

Edited February 2, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

On this we can agree, but I don't want a scenario where

Jon comes back so ravaged/changed by the reviving ritual/the time he spent as a corpse (and I mean, it's not even clear he's dead-dead at the end of Dance)/the price of magic that people will say "oh nooes, the true Jon Snow would have never done this! This is not 'our' Jon". I think we can agree that Lady Stoneheart, while retaining some trace of Catelyn, is not her. I don't hold Cat responsible for anything Stoneheart may do. I hope there's just a bit of Cat in her, so that any news about her children may come as a relief. But I don't want the same to apply to Jon, it would feel to me like a cop-out. Jon has to stay himself or close enough, so that he can be held accountable for everything he's going to do in Winds, bad or good. I don't have a clear opinion about what he's going to be like after he comes back - I don't rule out the chance he's still more conventionally good - but I don't think he will survive the books anyway.

 

I think we are terribly OT anyway ^^' Mya will soon descend on us and rip us apart D:

Edited February 2, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Ashara Payne]

Where is everyone?

http://i.imgur.com/B9yCcay.gif

[Haleth]

Maybe Shimpy passed out. Lol

[Chris24601]

Are you sure

Jon will be the Luke Skywalker type of hero? In this universe, a hero is someone who will stab his wife in the heart for the greater good as exemplified by AA. 

(Still not for Shimpy)

Truthfully we can't even be sure that Azor Ahai WAS a hero in the modern sense. He's certainly a "culture hero" (one who embodies the preferred virtues of a given culture) to the devotees of the Red God. Azor Ahai is described by them as the Red God's champion who, by defeating the Others, will bring about a world in which only the faithful will live. Given that the faithful of the Red God are basically impervious to fire while most people aren't this world they believe Azor Ahai will bring about may not be any better for humanity than the Long Night accompanying the Others.

To put in Star Wars terms, Azor Ahai might not have been Luke, but Anakin Skywalker who crushed his enemies and brought "Order" to the galaxy. Vader was a hero too... from a certain point of view. If so, we don't WANT Jon to be Azor Ahai reborn because his role would be wash the world clean with Fire... and Blood.

To be honest, I don't think Jon even IS Azor Ahai. I thin its a real stretch to try and attach AA to Jon when there's another candidate who fits it near perfectly. Indeed, I think the prophecies of Azor Ahai, the Prince Who Promised and the Last Hero are not actually about the same person, but three interrelated people ("the dragon must have three heads"). Bran is the Last Hero, who undertakes a quest into the North with a broken sword/back to find the Children of the Forest and likely made some deal with the Others to end the Long Night and thus is tied to Ice... Dany is Azor Ahai reborn, born amid smoke and salt who wakes dragons from stone in the funeral pyre of her beloved and draws forth the weapon of the Red God/Dragons and thus is tied to Fire... and Jon is The Prince Who Was Promised, born of both Ice (Stark) AND Fire (Targaryan) to be the balance between both extremes.

Which is why I tend to buy the notion that Jon's resurrection won't be as simple as Mel using fire magic on him... because that's only  fire... nor will it be some long forgotten Northern magic because that would be only ice. I think it will take both and that the resolution will not be simply fire beats ice in some war, but in finding some sort of synthesis or restoration of balance between the two (GRRM was conscientious objector during Vietnam and his descriptions of war are all about how they ruin everything... I can't see gathering up the largest army and having a huge war being the way the heroes win).

And it follows from that that I don't think Jon is going be changed into some ruthless 'ends justify the means' conqueror by his death and resurrection. Because that's NOT what I think the story is going to need to win the day. Instead its probably going to take someone who can look at the conflict from both sides (like say, the conflict between the NW and the Wildlings) and find a middle ground.

[WindyNights]

GRRM already confirmed that TPTWP and AA are the same person just saying.

[mac123x]

Maybe Shimpy passed out. Lol

 

IIRC, when we last saw our hero, she just finished "The Iron Suitor" Victarion-finds-Moqqoro chapter.  Given whose name is at the top of the next chapter, I assume she decided to take a breather.

Tyrion escapes to the Second Sons' camp

[stillshimpy]

Hehe, wow I am predictable, aren't I?  Sorry guys, it actually has been the name "Tyrion" at the top of the chapter that has had me choosing to do other things in my leisure time this week, but I have a good reason for it beyond my normal "Oh...spiffy-doodle-doo....Tyrion, argh" reaction.  

 

So....Killz, what is it, you may ask?  It's primer and a stain blocker and I'm prepping this house for sale.  I'm actually currently selling two houses, which will be my third in less than nine months.  This would make sense if I was a real estate agent, but I am not.   Instead, I've just gotten fairly good at representing us in real estate transactions which means I'm usually the Handy Person, Stager, Painter (uh oh) and project manager for all contractors.   I had two window frames taped off to take them from brown to white in the trim area, had a quart of Killz (uh oh) all set to go, loosened the lid (dun dun dun....oh no) ....took a phone call, came back, picked up the Killz and completely forgetting that I had loosened the lid began to shake it vigorously after picking it up from where i had left it....on the railing of a bannister (Oh.Holy.Jesus.)  

 

Okay, so an entire quart of Killz being vigorously shaken near a black fridge, over hardwood floors, over the open area of an open-concept stairwell can take out five different walls in four different colors  (kitchen, stair surround, actual stairwell ....wall opposite the stairwell in the basement....wall beneath the stairwell)....three different kinds of flooring  ....hardwood, the actual stairs....splattering into three rooms on the lower level because it was like setting off a bomb in terms of spatter....most of my head, the front of the fridge an entire outfits worth of clothing (thankfully just stuff I'd wear for painting anyway...and my right ear).  

 

By a miracle of Herculean effort, the only thing that was damaged beyond being salvaged was ...everything I was wearing and a nearby garbage can.  This was accomplished by swinging into immediate action and working like a demonic motherfucker before any of it could set.  

 

I've since painted the window trim, touched up three of the walls, the stair railings....gotten all the paint off those floors without needing to refinish anything ....and I think that as of today, I've actually gotten all of the paint out of my hair.     

 

So after nearly killing myself with careless Killz handling, I am now ready to start reading again :-)  But ....I've been....really, really, busy.  

[Haleth]

Omigosh, that sounds like a nightmare!

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, you know, keeping all things in perspective -- because no injury, no loss of life, all that stuff, blah blah blah....be grateful (and I am, truly) -- it was pretty bad.  I got so lucky in that I keep a drawer full of towels that are used only on the dogs and I thought to wet most of those, wipe up the paint with disposable rags, and then throw the wet towels down on the stuff on the floor to keep the killz from setting and thereby murdering the floors as I then scrubbed up the killz with other wet towels (which were then thrown directly into the washing machine, that I thank the universe was right there too).  

 

Did I mention that since I was drenched in paint, I had to strip down to my underwear and commence cleaning up for almost three hours straight, in my underwear?  Just that added level of "Well, this sucks."  

 

One of my closest friends here said, "Oh honey, why didn't you call me???"  and I told her it was because I actually liked her a lot more than I did myself at that moment.    But on the "wow, you got sooooo lucky" front?  In all that time, neither of my dogs went anywhere near any of the spills.  All it took was one wild yell from me and they both apparently conferred and unanimously decided, "we'll be over here, looking perplexed from a safe distance". 

Edited February 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

I can just imagine the string of expletives.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I am fairly certain I created a new, and fairly vicious language, all by myself that day.   Apologies for dragging the thread off-topic and I promise it won't be a habit, but so that you all know how insanely lucky I actually was?  It's going to be easy to tell where I was standing (right in front of that black fridge) ....and look at all the soft-surfaces/expensive stuff it didn't hit, at all.  I was sooooooo lucky.  It only hit areas I could repaint or cleanup.   Also, if you are understandably wondering "Uh, is your house always that much of a mess?"  Right now?  Yes, yes it is.  

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Andeleisha]

Ugh, whenever things like that happen it makes me wish for an "undo" button in real life. I felt that myself this week when I laid down on my bed before work...only to discover my dog had puked on my pillow. Back in the shower!

Edited February 4, 2016 by Andeleisha

[stillshimpy]

only to discover my dog had puked on my pillow. Back in the shower!

 

Oooooooh noooooooo!  Times like that you really need the Omega 13 to be real with a quickness.  I did, by the way, think of the books because for as much fun as I've made of the repetition of certain lines, I was doing my own version of "If i look back, I am lost" but instead it was "If I slow down, I am fucked" :-) 

 

Okay, so Tyrion actually had an interesting moment of self-realization about how he'd be in Dorne right now with Griff and Faegon, living the high life, instead of being a slave, if only he hadn't decided he had to go to a brothel.  Someone here commented that they don't like Penny, andI think it was Delta, would it be okay to ask why?  I like her because she brings out a human side to Tyrion, a decent compassionate and nurturing side that I appreciate and think his characterization sorely needs.  

She makes a good character facilitator, if not a good character unto herself.  

 

Nurse bit it on some laced...turkey....soup and I feel like there was actually more to the awfulness of Nurse that Martin cut (gadzukes, astonishing) .   I also liked that Tryion immediately understood Dany's battle-commander failing:  she should have poisoned the freaking wells outside the city.  Would it have been merciless?  Yes, it would have been, but it also would have solved a few of her manifold problems. 

 

As per usual, I'm robbed of some of the fun of the tale, because I know that Dany is alive.  I'd know that even if I hadn't seen season five, but at present, it does sort of feel like killing time until she shows back up.   Tyrion's knowledge of dragons starts to come to the fore in this chapter too. 

 

As for poor Pretty Pig and Crunch, I submit to you that across the board Martin's use of animals has been fucking appalling.  He writes in creatures mostly so he can do something entirely fucking hideous to them.   Since the people in his stories only fair slightly better, and that's only in some instances, I can't really count it among my chief complaints in the story but holy overkill, dude.  Between the soup and the stew and the...just fucking it a rest for an entire damned chapter, would you?  

 

I know he won't, but good god.  

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, if it's any consolation, outside of all the outrageous turkey harming in the book series, GRRM has been known to fundraise and donate to a couple of different wolf and wolf-dog sanctuaries. You can read about it in the link below. :)

 

At the time the article below was published his fundraiser raised +470,000 for the Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary.

 

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/07/george-rr-martin-to-donate-10000-to-wolf-sanctuary.html

Edited February 4, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[WindyNights]

Penny is an interesting character who makes Tyrion more interesting.

I mean here is a dwarf who has lost everything and she chooses not to hate the world like Tyrion does.

So I don’t mean to be overly harsh with Tyrion, as he’s got good reason to think and feel the way he does, but Penny is there in part to highlight that this is a choice he’s making. Penny too has reason to hate the world, and knows it, but she chooses not to, and that is a strong choice, not a naive one; it’s about reclaiming her agency and autonomy, declaring that the Wicked Fates who claimed her brother and made her a dwarf in a world that despises them cannot tell her how to feel.

But Tyrion rejects that existential triumph at every turn. He regards Penny’s mindset as an affront, a maddening impossibility. Don’t you know everything’s garbage? Don’t you know the world hates you? Gah, stop smiling at me! I can attest that this is often how depression works: attempts to cheer you up, especially by example, can just make you feel worse. So part of why I love Penny is that she is not, in fact, here to heal Tyrion. She cannot do that, and even if she could, that’s not her responsibility; ultimately, it’s his.

I think people are partly annoyed by Penny because Tyrion often feels annoyed at her. But Tyrion is a shit-head throughout ADWD so....

But his narrative bias ends up feeding our own as Penny is only presented to us through Tyrion's POV.

[Delta1212]

Nah, that wasn't me. I think I remember that comment but I don't remember who made it.

[Ashara Payne]

Ooh Shimpy, you have my sympathy. The closest I can remember having to deal with something like that is trying to cope with a sick, screaming, tired toddler who threw up in the middle of the night over themselves, their bed and the bedroom carpet. Dogs with diarrhoea at least aren't demanding cuddles, even if clearing up is more unpleasant. Glad it wasn't as bad as it might have been.

[stillshimpy]

Dogs with diarrhoea at least aren't demanding cuddles, even if clearing up is more unpleasant.

 

You have not met my dogs, but here's a funny thing....and I realize that this is practically taunting the fates....but whereas my dogs have had some epic episodes of throwing up, I've never had a dog have an explosive incident from the other end.  

 

What happened to me involved a type of paint primer.  A super thick paint primer combined with my own stupidity.  

 

 

 

Nah, that wasn't me. I think I remember that comment but I don't remember who made it.

 

I'm sorry, I clearly can't recall either.  

 

 

 

I think people are partly annoyed by Penny because Tyrion often feels annoyed at her. But Tyrion is a shit-head throughout ADWD so....

But his narrative bias ends up feeding our own as Penny is only presented to us through Tyrion's POV

 

Interesting, because I actually like her.  She's not jaded, despite having many reasons to be.  She frankly displays more sense about how to keep her neck attached to her head than Tyrion does in many instances and again, she seems to unearth the parts of Tyrion I do like. 

 

Also, guys please understand, I don't think George R. R. Martin is a wicked man who hurts animals.  I just wish he'd give up all the Fictional Turkey Flogging.  I can't abide a Turkey Flogger ;-)  

Edited February 4, 2016 by stillshimpy

[feverfew]

I know I said I wouldn't post here until Shimpy has finished Dance, but since this has very little to do with the books, I thought I'd make an exception ;)

 

Your story with the Killz horrified/thrilled me, because that's exactly the sort of thing I do. One thoughtless action and boom! And it happens so often to me -  although seldom in that scale. Usually it's important manuscripts and coffee. Speaking of dogs, I own the cutest, prettiest Kooiker - with the worst temper and a tendency to eat everything in her path. I still have nightmares about that day I was chasing her around the appartment while stuff was coming out of both ends - and me throwing up too (I have a very efficient gag reflex). I love her more than life itself, but dear god!
 

I can't abide a Turkey Flogger ;-)

 

After getting my dog I've become violently sensitive to animal abuse - both fictionally and otherwise. I don't think I was callous before, but having an animal depend on you like that really puts it into perspective. Unfortunately it has also totally destroyed nature programs for me - I'm a crying mess everytime the lion catches the gazelle :)

Edited February 4, 2016 by feverfew

[Haleth]

Of all the turkey flogging imagining how long Pretty Pig and Crunch lasted in that hell hole is pretty realistic, left in the middle of thousands and thousands of starving peasants and soldiers.  I was surprised the animals survived the ship when it was stuck in the doldrums as food was starting to run low.  Of course we should never trust off page deaths so they may turn up again.  You never know. :)

 

I like Penny.  She reminds Tyrion what it is to be a decent person.  She distracts him from his self loathing and gives him a reason to find a way out of their predicament.  He likes her, for all the eye rolling and head shaking.  He could easily have left her behind but he feels responsible for her safety.  Even not letting her know about the lions in the pit shows the depth of his caring.  Tyrion is a better person when he is given a responsibility, whether it's cleaning the drains in Casterly Rock or as Hand of the King.  Even though his job of protecting Penny is self appointed, his sense of duty has kicked in and he'll do his best to keep her safe.

[WSmith84]

I'm not quite sure why Penny is such an unpopular character. It may be because she is featured mainly in the chapters that, at least in my opinion, feel the most like unnecessary bloat. It's like certain people who dislike Ewoks in Star Wars; it's not the Ewoks themselves that they dislike, but the fact that they are a symptom of a greater problem. There definitely wasn't much outcry when we learned Penny wasn't being cast for season 5; more of a 'oh thank God' to be honest. Not that casting Penny would have made much sense in the show anyway; Tyrion's clearly too different from his book counterpart for her to serve much purpose.

[stillshimpy]

Of all the turkey flogging imagining how long Pretty Pig and Crunch lasted in that hell hole is pretty realistic, left in the middle of thousands and thousands of starving peasants and soldiers.

 

That was, by far, the least egregious use of Turkey Flogging in the entire book.  Admittedly, the character details of Penny having two animals to whom she is quite attached exists almost entirely  to show that she's tenderhearted and give Tyrion multiple opportunities to wonder who is sharpening their knives for a pet sandwich.  Still that was the least sensationalistic use of "Think it sucks to be a person here?  Sucks so much worse to be an animal, particularly one a person likes, gods forbid they have actual love for that animal because it's Turkeypocalypse, I'm telling you." 

 

Also, so that you guys know, we're not real estate moguls or something.  Last Spring someone approached us wanting to buy our house on a very short deadline.  It was a lucrative proposition, so we hauled proverbial balls to accomplish all that needed to be done, which included (I kid you not) having to finish an exterior painting job ourselves, under tarps in the rain in order to meet an inspection deadline.   Then my husband was offered a great job in SoCal which necessitated selling the house we bought then, and we decided to go ahead and sell the house we had in Denver, that we'd kept as a rental.   After that, I fully intended to cease and desist with my sudden descent into constant real estate transactions.   

 

 

 

Speaking of dogs, I own the cutest, prettiest Kooiker - with the worst temper and a tendency to eat everything in her path. I still have nightmares about that day I was chasing her around the appartment while stuff was coming out of both ends - and me throwing up too (I have a very efficient gag reflex). I love her more than life itself, but dear god!

 

What an adorable dog!! Sorry she's a Goat Dog, but I definitely feel for you on the sympathy hurling, as well as the mad chase.  Thankfully our  92 pound dog is not in the least prone to getting into anything horrifying, although I have discovered that he's insanely gifted at getting moles and then looks at me reproachfully when I refuse to let him eat them.   Pud, on the other hand?  Never destroyed even one single thing, but will eat terrifying horrors and she has that "I'm part lab!" habit of going ballistic and pile driving her entire body into the deadest, smelliest, most horrifying things she can find.  If she can find something that both vomited and defecated as its last living act and then died in that mess and then giddily rub her entire body into six weeks post mortem?  That's Nirvana for her.   

 

There's a terrible repressed memory about unthinkingly letting her off-lead at the Game Farm where we had Oscar trained (not to hunt anything, obviously, but he didn't even know how to sit when we adopted him and 92 pound dogs that know no commands at all? Challenging) ...during deer hunting season and Oscar's trainer saying, "we should probably get her, some hunters were cleaning deer right over...." where Puddles was joyfully rolling, after having smeared her entire body in a veritable deer autopsy.   What fun that bath was, which we had to give her right then and there, in a barn...in January.   I nearly passed out and Oscar's trainer, a woman who grew up duck hunting, deer hunting, training gun dogs and as a farm girl, was almost in need of smelling salts herself.  

 

That memory is the most effective diet aid known to god or man.  

 

And back to the books I march, having left you all with that vivid imagery.  

 

So now I'm having the strangest reaction to every Jon chapter: complete and total dread that this.will.be.it.   I have to remind myself "In the books, he's a warg, it's known he's a warg.  An entire prologue detailed what happens to a warg when their body is killed.  Jon will be safe as houses until Mellie can Melatize him and R'Hllor his butt back to the land of the living and he won't have UnCat Mushroom brain, because he will have been in Ghost" or whatever "this is how Martin decided to get Jon out of the damned Watch for good" plot device is about to be deployed.  

 

But I still get nervous because the poor freaking character will be betrayed, even if the book is structuring in -- really well, by the way -- precisely why and it's at least a little bit easy to understand, rather than having Thorne there all "Mwhahahaha, curse my sudden but inevitable betrayal!"  

 

This will be a slight shamefaced admission:  I think this has actually been Martin's best work.  I know, because if anyone happens to recall my stance on the men of the Night's Watch, you may actually recall that I was not exactly Wall Positive, shall we say?  

 

And I'm bringing that up because after I got through Tyrion's chapter, where I thought his manner of freeing them all was sort of delightful and wily -- and at first I was so insanely frustrated by him when he was taunting the soldier into hitting him, thinking "Jebus Cripes, You Noseless Misanthrope, could you maybe shut up for the sake of your own hide occasionally??" and then was fairly delighted when he had been doing it on purpose.  

 

Then....Jon's name at the top of the chapter and *gulp*.   So that's on today's agenda.  It beats deer autopsies, I'm sure. 

 

ETA:

 

'm not quite sure why Penny is such an unpopular character. It may be because she is featured mainly in the chapters that, at least in my opinion, feel the most like unnecessary bloat. It's like certain people who dislike Ewoks in Star Wars; it's not the Ewoks themselves that they dislike, but the fact that they are a symptom of a greater problem.

 

Ooooooh!  Now that makes perfect sense.  Thank you, WSmith, I hadn't considered that angle, which is at least a little surprising because Tyrion's chapters in Dance have been like Embittered Condensed Tedium and I can completely see why Penny is lumped in with that.  

Edited February 4, 2016 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

Someone here commented that they don't like Penny, andI think it was Delta, would it be okay to ask why?

 

/meekly raises hand.  I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't like Penny. 

 

Her introduction in Dance was interesting, and made a lot of sense to me that she'd blame Tyrion for her brother's death.  Initially at least.  When they were on the Stinky Steward, and she continued to blame him, I got annoyed with her.

 

The chapter you just read cemented my dislike of her.  She's so naïve about how the world really works that she reminds me of early Sansa, which is not a laudable comparison.  I also find her character implausible.  Supposedly her father and brother sheltered her as much as possible, but we know how dwarves are mistreated on Planetos, and they didn't have the protection of extreme wealth like Tyrion.  They weren't even part of a mummer's troop.  We're supposed to believe that three (then two) independent contractor dwarves traveled the world with a pig and a turkey and weren't robbed, raped, stabbed, sold into slavery or otherwise molested?  This crapsack world?  Not buying it.  It's about as believeable is Doctor Talisa Medicine Woman.

 

Unless Oppo kept her in a box and only brought her out for performances, I find it very hard to buy that she hasn't had multiple encounters with just how awfully dwarves get treated.

 

I like her because she brings out a human side to Tyrion, a decent compassionate and nurturing side that I appreciate and think his characterization sorely needs. 

 

She makes a good character facilitator, if not a good character unto herself.

 

I can agree with the bolded bit, since she sort of got Tyrion out of his "wherever whores go" do-loop.  This chapter shows that Tyrion is finally becoming proactive again, so her usefulness to the plot has expired. 

[WSmith84]

But I still get nervous because the poor freaking character will be betrayed, even if the book is structuring in -- really well, by the way -- precisely why and it's at least a little bit easy to understand, rather than having Thorne there all "Mwhahahaha, curse my sudden but inevitable betrayal!" 

 

Are you a fan of the show Firefly by any chance shimpy?

 

Jon's chapters in Dance are some of my favourites in all of the books. I wasn't really that bothered by Jon as a character until Dance; then he became one of my favourite characters. Perhaps even my favourite. And yes, the books do a significantly better job of giving good motivations for what's to come. Definitely better than Olly (a character who caused me to develop a delightful new expletive) giving looks so filled with obvious intent that he may as well have looked directly at the camera and snarled or something.

[WindyNights]

Yeah I think Jon really grew into a really good character in ASOS and ADWD. I think Jon is underrated in the fandom but he at the very least avoided gathering a large hatedom like say Sansa, Daenerys and Catelyn ( interesting that the characters with the biggest hatedom are women).

[Ashara Payne]

Haha, twenty years ago I had a mad chocolate lab who was a silly, soppy, adorable thing. He tried to be good, but got so excited on walks and over meals and stuff he just couldn't contain himself. He always used to roll around in fox faeces on our long country walks. He'd run off into the distance, where I could see him orgasmically rolling around in the stuff. I'd call him and he'd stand up, look at me, and then proceed to continue with his heavenly activity. I was torn between laughter and infuriating frustration. I miss him and his larks.

[stillshimpy]

I fully admit to having almost that exact same thought about Penny, mac, that she's beyond unlikely and into unbelievable.  That's what led me to thinking of her as a character facilitator, rather than an actual character herself.  I have a fairly protective nature though, and naiveté as a characteristic in real people doesn't bother me either, but I do agree Penny could not exist. Even if her brother and father managed to keep her practically sequestered from all forms of harm or unkindness, by the time she encounters Tyrion, her brother has been dead for at least six months.  

 

For Talisa as a character construct, we've got Jeyne Poole as a direct contrast.  Unless Crunch is secretly a Badass Wizard in disguise who could morph into a Berserker Killing Machine, complete with handy Memory Wiping Capabilities so that Penny never realized he was just killing the living shit out of the countless hordes of people set on doing helpless things harm; Penny doesn't make it long enough to be sitting around in a tavern.  

 

Giving her about two or three lines that boil down to "don't fuck with the big folk, you'll live longer that way" doesn't explain her continued existence or beliefs.  

 

Are you a fan of the show Firefly by any chance shimpy?

 

You're gorram right I am ;-) 

[Terra Nova]

 by the time she encounters Tyrion, her brother has been dead for at least six months. 

 

To Martin's partial defense, Oppo is still alive in The Merchant's Man, Quentyn sees both of them jousting in Volantis. So Oppo must have died few days/a couple of weeks before Penny attacks Tyrion.

That said, I too share some doubts about the world view of a girl, albeit sheltered, that none the less travels Westeros and should really know better. I don't know if her role was already written when Feast and Dance were still to be one single book (à propos, you know Shimpy, the last Dany's chapter you read was supposed to be her second one in the original plan, and had already been read at a convention around 2005), but I feel it's one that truly suffers from having the books becoming much longer than intended - or better, telling fewer events in the same amount of pages -. Even as a character facilitator she barely has any arc at all, which is not generally true for other minor characters. I don't dislike her but she's not Martin's best creation for sure.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

Ygritte, Daario, Penny and Shae only exist to develop Jon, Tyrion and Dany's characters.

Maybe it's more blatant in Penny's case.

Edited February 4, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

There is also the general impatience in some part of the fandom to start and see the end goals: almost all the new characters introduced in Feast and Dance got their fair share of 'Boring! Useless! Stooooopid!' even when they are POV, so I guess the reaction to blatant third-tier characters/sidekicks/character facitators is only stronger and angrier. Penny is clearly not going to lead armies in battle or ride a dragon or have a sudden display of magic, so she 'must' be useless.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

AFFC and ADWD consists of our original POVS not doing too much plot heavy stuff but a crap ton of development while all the new POVS introduce major characters that do a lot of the plot's new heavy lifting.

[Dev F]

There is also the general impatience in some part of the fandom to start and see the end goals: almost all the new characters introduced in Feast and Dance got their fair share of 'Boring! Useless! Stooooopid!' even when they are POV, so I guess the reaction to blatant third-tier characters/sidekicks/character facitators is only stronger and angrier. Penny is clearly not going to lead armies in battle or ride a dragon or have a sudden display of magic, so she 'must' be useless.

 

Hmm, I actually feel exactly the opposite. Penny is one of the few new characters in Dance that I really appreciated, precisely because she isn't immediately called upon to support a whole new storyline five books into an already overstuffed series. She's used the way new supporting characters should ideally be used -- the way they were used in the earlier, more tightly written novels in the series -- to illuminate important aspects of an existing main character's story.

 

Indeed, I think Martin would've been better served by focusing Tyrion's story more on smaller, character-based moments like his relationship with Penny, rather than using him as the access point for introducing a whole mess of other characters, from Young Griff to Moqorro, who don't really have much bearing on his personal journey.

[WindyNights]

I wouldn't say that because Moquorro is necessary for Tyrion to begin his transition to the magic based plot and he was really only in one chapfwr with Tyrion.

He's also the first one to bring a clue that Tyrion may be the third head of the dragon:

And it needs to be Tyrion who turns Aegon west and be the first one (not for shimpy)

to break the news to Daenerys about Aegon . It gets him in good with Daenerys, turns her against Aegon and limits Varys' and Illyrio's potential influence with her.

It's an important plot based reason though.

Edited February 6, 2016 by WindyNights

[chandraReborn]

I like Penny as well. She's a lot like Brienne in some ways--naive, dead brothers, but takes care of herself even though society views her as freakish--and like Brienne, she serves as a mirror for a Lannister brother in their journey. Jaime sees in Brienne the kind of youthful faith in chivalry that he lost--in Penny, Tyrion realizes how much worse his life could have been. 

[stillshimpy]

in Penny, Tyrion realizes how much worse his life could have been.

 

It also seems to be a case of Tyrion being forced to confront his issues with self-loathing and presumably having to accept how much of a part that played in the trajectory of his life, up until this point.  I was pleasantly startled when he thinks about how he participated in bringing his current fate about, through one of his biggest failings.  Also, since that particularly interlude in the brothel is Tyrion being completely horrible to that poor prostitute, because he can be -- knowing she will be beaten because he vomited on the rug and then raping her and being aware that is what he's doing -- it was a mark of growth to read his POV in which he knows that is the moment that brought about his current fate.  He stops just short of thinking, "I deserve this" but he does clearly think "I brought this about"  and it made the detail of the prostitute being a slave (so....she's not even really a prostitute, she's just a continuously raped slave, because there is no choice involved) that much more important, because karma was fairly instantaneous there.  

 

But every time Tyrion looks at Penny and critiques her physical appearance or is essentially repulsed by the fact that she is s dwarf, he is kind of hanging out in the head space he has judged others for so unkindly.  He is at least sidling up to the fact that he has been the architect of some of his own misery, because he does hate aspects of himself, independent of his father and family's judgements.  

[stillshimpy]

I think for pretty much the only time since starting the books, I've decided to repeatedly pause as I'm reading this Jon chapter because I don't want to entirely lose these reactions -- really for my own thought process, not because I think it will necessarily be all that riveting for you guys (sorry) --  but because this is the one arc that I really feel is benefiting from the foreknowledge brought to me via the show.   I know where it's heading, so it's a lot easier to see the careful plot structure.  

 

Portents of doom abound.  The dream sequence in which Jon kills almost everyone he cared about and declares himself Lord of Winterfell was one of those moments that I think was probably kind of delightful in the aftermath.  I also liked the reminder of the Warg who died while he was in his Eagle, which is pretty freaking important. 

 

The Raven saying things like King and Jon Snow certainly caught my attention, and of course, the way I react to that Raven, ever since being told that the Ravens contain ...people....basically, even though they are from thousands of years ago...certainly makes him much creepier and I also wondered if this was somehow Bran, or Bloodraven trying to warn Jon, and specifically Bloodraven and was that his "gnarled hand".  

 

Dolorous Ed got such a fun little exchange that I'm now terrified he's a dead man, because he practically had a last supper vibe to him and whereas I know Martin does like to dwell on food, I even got all fixated on the symbolism of the egg and Easter and rebirth and ....yup.  I am currently wicked levels of paranoid in the Jon chapters.   It's also like watching a horror movie when it comes to the men all "Aye" and "it will be done" because it really is like watching someone descend into the dark basement of an abandoned house, to investigate the strange noises while you can see a dude in a hockey mask looming at the top of the steps.  I just want to shout at Jon "Aren't they agreeing a bit too readily??"  

 

And again in the ongoing "What Did the Show Biff this Time?" games the limitations of conveying the numbers of any force have just made it all seem like seventeen poorly dressed yokels who are freaked out by a building and "is it a castle??" etc. etc.  when it came to the Wildlings.   Make it clear that the Wildlings have their own lore, that their are children present (season five

something that the show didn't go near until Hardhome, giving a sense of community

)  who were told scary bedtime stories about Crows coming to kill them if they weren't good....making it clear that the men of the Night's Watch aren't just "Crows" and foes, they are the boogeymen of legend in the same way the Whitewalkers are in the South.  People with terrible intent and no compunction about slaughtering small children.  

 

 

Okay, so the Wildlings have just started to come through the gate.  So that's why I paused here.  It's this moment in the tale that I suspect just is sealing so many deals and whereas I know -- or at least think I do -- where this is heading, it's kind of like knowing that the Titanic will sink.  The big "Oh he's gonna die" event that I now know enough about Wargs and the Starks connection to their wolves to not fear or find as upsetting, so it really is like watching all the players take their places on the stage for something I've really taken issue with throughout the story:  I have absolutely hated the concept that a fourteen-year-old (in the series, sixteen-year-old) virgin went off to join the Night's Watch because he was simply desperately searching for a family that would accept him without attaching shame to his existence.

 

Drives me bonkers and I know I've gone on about it.  So I have to admit to weirdly looking forward to Jon being killed, because I hope it frees him from the fucking Watch so that he could eventually do what would have been far closer to the better choice: marry, have children, create a family and love them, while being loved equally in return.   Dragon Riders, Chosen Ones, Those Who are the Ones of Prophecy being all well and good, I guess I'm kind of digging the concept of seeing Jon freed from what I consider a form of slavery.  

 

And that's kind of when it hit me:  Oh shit, in that entire "Who will ride the Dragons?"  Tyrion knows a lot about them, so he's going to be fairly key to taming them, I assume.  We already know Dany has to be one of these riders (which by the way, the TV series never actually hints at as being a huge deal...we just have the one moment of Arya reciting Dragon Lore to Tywin) ....Tyrion is currently a slave, Dany was sold into marriage they've both been part of freeing themselves from the things that removed choice from their lives.  

 

I have always viewed it as a near crime that anyone would be allowed to take that vow before they were adults.  It isn't just that I find vows of celibacy sort of disturbing in the ways I've already covered, it's that giving away your agency for the rest of your life, at the age of fourteen really feels wrong to me.  

 

Okay, I'm heading back into the chapter, but I just wanted to pause and detail why I'm weirdly looking forward to Jon's rising from the ashes moment.   

[Terra Nova]

That mention to the gnarled hand convinced me that Bloodraven keeps an eye on Jon; the crow followed him to Mole Town when he proposed the Wildlings to join the Watch and when Val came back and Jon had a talk with Tormund.

 

And of course, it was Mormont's crow hidden in the pot that caused an 'avalanche' of votes for Jon (during my first read I thought it was the remnant of Jeor living in the bird, since Mormonts are First Men and with all the imagery of the bears and the stories of Mormont women taking a stroll in the woods and mating with bears I thought some of them too could be a skinchanger).

 

On my first read through I could really feel the tension rising in the Watch, and of course being the fifth book I had a faint suspicion that things could have turned ugly for real, but I kept telling me 'it's good, it's all good, his fellows are not that happy but they're swallowing this too... goddammit Jon stop pushing it too far! Ah, phew, it went well this time too... oh no, he's doing it again!' ^^' it was an emotional rollecoaster.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

I'm fairly convinced Mormont's Crow is really Bloodraven watching over Jon. This isn't the first time that crow's looked at Jon and said "King".

“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.

“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.

“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont striked the raven under the beak with his finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I'm glad I paused where I did to record a few thoughts, because I think they would have been largely eclipsed by that feeling of doom at the very end of the chapter.   The Braavosi ships only being willing to take women and children and The Witch accusing the Men of the Watch of being slavers gave me significant pause, because we do know that some wildling women and children were taken from Hardhome and sold as slaves form a different chapter.  

 

Overall I just, again, appreciated that the Wildlings aren't just like some grouping of Hobos around a campfire in 1930s South Dakota (which I swear is how they felt in the show a lot, like they were only about two steps above Cave Dwelling, Nomadic Primitives) I found the detailing of the possession they surrendered fascinating and wondered who the sword with the three sapphires had belonged to.  Seems like something I've likely encountered before, but just couldn't place. 

 

I was with Jon on the "Okay, was Mance lying, or was Tormund lying about that horn?"  and then I remember Ygritte telling Jon they never found the Horn.  

 

Boy skinchangers North of the Wall tend to be truly nasty pieces of work.  I wonder if it is just because they are so relatively powerful?  Instead of being a Lord of a holdfast, they easily have power over others, kind of like everyone holding the "Guest Rights" stuff as being sacrosanct because all hell breaks loose and destroys a society unless there are some hard, fast rules about what is acceptable....I wonder if that's why the whole "never, ever enter a person" exists for skinchangers?  It's like the Guest Rights of skinchanging. 

 

Drove me a bit nutty when Jon didn't tell Leathers to speak his mind about where he thought the spearwives should go.  That's one thing that shows Jon's age:  He's observant enough to note it, but green enough that he doesn't know how to ask for the views of others, without thinking it makes him look insecure. 

 

Looks like there's a relatively short Selmy chapter up next, so onwards!