Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Delta1212]

Soooooo...

Any thoughts on what Manderly was doing in that chapter?

[Trisan]

See what you did there Delta ! ^^

 

If I'm correct, that Areo chapter is more or less the point where Dance catches up on Feast, timeline wise.

[Haleth]

Heheh.

Shimpy, I hope it's not a spoiler to say that this was the rock bottom for Theon. I start reading his chapters again after this because they aren't nearly as over the top with the horror.

[stillshimpy]

On what Manderley was up to: boy at first I thought "Okay, so he's poisoning everyone and himself? He didn't bring any hostages so...what's happening there?"

But then he wanted to sing a song about the Rat King and I wondered where Rhaegar Frey's body was.

Also, I'm sorry about the weird double-content post. I'd try to figure out how to fix it, but I'm almost certain I'd make it worse.

You know that scene in Big when Tom Hanks plays the piano on the floor of FAO Schwartz? Not unlike my current computing situation. Turns out having a mammoth monitor has strange implications on precision.

ETA:

Shimpy, I hope it's not a spoiler to say that this was the rock bottom for Theon. I start reading his chapters again after this because they aren't nearly as over the top with the horror.

I don't think that's too spoilery at all, and thanks for that. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had the "A bridge too far, a bridge too far, dial it down and it would have more emotional resonance" reaction.

Edited January 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Dany is actually wrong on the Targaryen immunity to illness, as evidenced by the Great Spring Sickness (which was talked of in one of the Tales of Dunk and Egg). It killed at least three Targaryens that I remember.

[stillshimpy]

I thought maybe that Targaryen Immunity was directly related to the whole Dragon business. So some would be and some wouldn't be, although I have zero guesses on what actually makes a Targ a Dragon.

Edited January 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Trisan]

Regarding the comments on Wyman Manderly, I'll spoiler-tag the link cause the title gives it away, but here it is if you want to find out what we're talking about ! (No spoilers at all here, but just tagging it in case you want to think it through by yourself a little bit longer) ! :)

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Frey_Pies/Theories

 

Oh and there is also another interesting point to be said about the bard that shows up with his escort of six women, but I'm not saying anything more on the subject ! :)

Edited January 15, 2016 by Trisan

[Delta1212]

I know that was a big piece of speculation on the Spitball Wall, but honestly, I don't think there's any literal "Dragon" Targs. It's just be like saying Tywin was the true Lion and Cersei is not.

Just more Westerosi animal-metaphor for various people's personality traits and personal accomplishments rather than there being anything truly mystical involved.

And yeah, to pull up something I said much earlier in the thread under spoiler bar regarding Manderly's actions in this chapter: Would you like Freys with that?

Three huge meat pies. Three missing Freys. And a giddy Wyman demanding a song about the Rat Cook.

[Terra Nova]

Bran: the guy with the arrows was a trailer for 'A World of Ice and Fire', just like Duncan and the girl are for next novella, 'The She-Wolves of Winterfell". The guy

is the bastard brother of Thorren Stark, the last King who bent the knee to Aegon in order to spare his people. Brandon Snow (the guy) was convinced that an arrow made of weirdwood would kill a dragon

Among other things, keep in mind what Brynden said, that people may hear the greenseer in the tree but only as a whisper of the wind or the leaves trembling ;)

 

Dany: she may well believe she is immune to sickness, but she has no qualms dragging her people amidst the sick and the dead. The Targ liked to be considered gods among lesser men, and ended up believing their own propaganda.

Also, it's speculated by fandom that there is indeed a Harpy leading the insurgence, so have fun try to determine if and who is the big bad boss, Shimpy ;)

 

Theon: Dustin extra-long talk actually only convinced me that, just like Roose, she's relying on Theon rpeorting everything to his master; so that she's basically showing she's loyal to them. And yet, under all her hatred for Ned, I hope there's also some love for the Starks - just like in Theon's case, she wanted to be one of them.

I fear the show really spoiled Theon's arc in the books, since I never got the *too muuch!* vibe while reading it: it's more introspective, but it's a trend started back in Feast.

As for Manderly... well, be creative Shimpy *cackles*

 

ETA: d'oh, beaten already ^^' I'll give my bit of info then: what did MAnderly say about the gift a host gives a guest?

 

'Savor every bite. I know I shall.'

 

ETA2: Shimpy, the problem with the doubling comment is when saving an edit fails, you press the button again and suddenly the comment duplicates. It's annoying but you can just re-edit the comment and delete the repeated part.

 

ETA3: Show!Ellaria, promply re-named Faullaria by some, caused quite the uproar, a shiny gem in that train-wreck show!Dorne already was.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

In Hotah's most recent chapter, hey you know what's been nice to find out?  That Ellaria Sand is actually a good, measured character instead of the sneering evil cartoon of the Wreck of Dorne's plot and that she was wildly against things like murdering Myrcella and Tommen.  That makes more sense in a land where people have been het up over the murder of innocent children for well over a decade.  They're horror over Cersei -- the Nitwit's -- plan to kill Trystane.

 

Just annoys the hell out of me how they completely assassinated her character on the show.  Prior to season 5 when we found out they were cutting the character of Arianne, a lot of people speculated that they'd keep the Dorne plot somewhat intact and give Arianne's stuff to Ellaria.  Instead, they completely inverted her, and to add insult to injury, took the three wildly different Sand Snakes and made them into blandly interchangeable cartoons.  Pah.

 

Even though this was more set up (giving the Sand Snakes their assignments), it's one of my favorite chapters.  I like how Doran has finally expanded his little conspiracy.  I also like how he's added 2 + 2 and gotten 5:  bunch of ships carrying an army stopped in Lys to take on supplies + headed this way = Daenerys.  Nope!  But still worth checking out.

 

One minor addition to the "GRRM needed an editor" list - the feast for Balon Swann was seven dishes, to honor the seven gods and the seven kingsguard... then he proceeds to list 8 courses.  Also, one page has Balon Swann trying a spoonful of the spicy snake stew; few pages later, Hotah remarks to himself "why is he sweating?  He didn't even try the stew".

 

In Winterfell: 

Since Shimpy hasn't connected the dots between Abel and Mance yet, I'll spoiler tag this.  I did connect the dots immediately and got really confused.  Mel's POV chapter had her discussing with Mance her vision about the grey girl on a dying horse, and it seemed like she sent him on a simple assignment of "go find her out in the wilderness".  Now we see him and the spearwives went to Winterfell directly -- did he decide to preempt the vision by rescuing "Arya" before she escaped, or was Mel's assignment something different?  Later chapters show that Mance is still on the rescue mission, but when Alys Karstark shows up at the Wall, I shared Jon's confusion about "what the hell is Mance up to really?"

[nksarmi]

Regarding Ellaria - Ha!  Can you imagine having read the books prior to season five and just sitting there (season five spoiler)

as Mrycella is dying thinking no - just no. No way. Did they really use a character to do the exact opposite thing her book version would have done?

.

[Terra Nova]

@max123

 

(aDwD)

Mance says immediately that he wants spearwives for a little trick he's thinking about: I guess he backtracked 'Arya''s presumpt journey all the way back to WInterfell, and then he concluded the girl was still there, so he needed to infiltrate and take her away. As Mel is convinced that the aim of a prophecy is to warn you, I guess she assumed that the girl's escape could happen only if she acts so to facilitate it. This would require some action in Winterfell first.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Terra Nova

[bobbybuilderton]

I think grrm knows how to quit while he's ahead. I think it's a deliberate choice when he goes into detail. I give him the benefit of the doubt on this, based on the talent he displays in other areas. I think it's certainly possible that he can't help himself, and I think it's a legitimate opinion to say the style isn't appealing to read. But I think it's more likely he just makes a conscious decision when he writes stuff like the end of that theon chapter. And with how much rewriting he tends to do, I think that makes sense.

[mac123x]

Terra Nova:

 

Ok, that makes sense. 

Mel thinks that sending Mance and crew to Winterfell will cause the "girl on a dying horse" vision to come true.  Meanwhile, Mance doesn't know that Mel screwed up and the vision already came true, so he's still on the "get Arya started on the path to that vision" phase of the plan.  I guess the whole Arya / Alys mix up could be R'hllor trying to get Mel to realize she's mistaken about other visions he's sending her regarding Azor Ahai and Jon

[stillshimpy]

Oh the Bard is Mance. Sorry, did I not mention that I saw that? He's got six women with him too. So yes, the bard is Mance Raydar. I also understood that Manderley was serving up dead Freys at a wedding feast, but wondered if there was more to it than that.

On Dany thinking she's immune, but then exposing absolutely everyone with her to Dysentery, that was one of those moments where Dany was trying to do the right thing, but was showing how unrealistic and unseasoned she can be, because no one else with her is thought to be immune to anything.

So it was actually kind of worse that she was practically forcing people who are loyal to her, to expose themselves to Dysentery, knowing she can't get it and apparently forgetting that it still matters whether or not they can. When it comes to the disenfranchised and those that would call her "mother" Dany reminds me of animal hoarders who think that they have 72 dogs because they love them so much and are doing what's best for the animals.

Meanwhile, they are living in squalor, sick and suffering, not properly vaccinated and just reinfecting one another with the same conjunctivitis until blindness occurs.

It takes more than caring, would be my point.

ETA: Thanks Terra Nova not knowing how to delete it sort of isn't the problem though. I'll get it when I get back home.

Edited January 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Oh the Bard is Mance. Sorry, did I not mention that I saw that? He's got six women with him too. So yes, the bard is Mance Raydar.

When you go back and read his first talk with Jon, about sneaking into Winterfell as a singer, and all the mentions of Bael the Bard and the story of sneaking off with a Stark girl...it's a nice bit of foreshadowing.

[Alayne Stone]

Not to defend what is easily the worst section of the entire series for me to read, but you do have to consider something regarding that heinous Ramsay scene: If you have never seen the show, this would have been the absolute first time the reader witnesses via a first person POV Ramsay in all his awfulness. We came upon Theon utterly devastated, his fingers having already been chewed, his spirit destroyed, his identity changed. But we never actually witnessed any of the horror for ourselves. It was all an after thought. And in a way, the reader sees for the first time ... again in real time ... just how subdued Theon/Reek has become.

 

Everything up to that moment in the chapter was absolutely brilliant. A lot of people like to argue that these last Reek chapters are some of George's best writing and I tend to agree.

 

Lady Dustin is another favorite minor character that I was disappointed to see did not make the show.

 

Season 5 spoilers relating to Sansa:

When we heard Sansa would be going to going to Winterfell, we tried to see the silver lining and assumed she might be taking on a Lady Dustin/Manderly type role: supposedly working with the Boltons as Littlefinger's bastard niece/daughter but as a secret catspaw working against them. I think that would have been far more compelling. Sadly, we were all very mistaken..

 

And oh man, how we all RAGED with what they did to Ellaria. Ellaria is actually the mouthpiece for what the author is trying to say about revenge and vengeance, it being a never ending cycle that just keeps piling on the death. But of course the creators completely just missed the point of that, evidenced by the fact that "VENGEANCE" is probably the only "theme" they actually try to employ in the series. I'm very excited for everything that has been set up by Doran and I can't wait to see what the sand snakes have planned for King's Landing. Can you imagine Lady Nym on the small council? A bastard? Cersei is going to have a fit.

 

One last note on that theon chapter: the actual wedding itself is so beautiful and sad. Whenever I read it I always pick up new things, from the way the wind seems to speak to Theon ... the way the weirwood seems to be watching him. It's almost like the old gods are watching or something. Hmmm.

[Delta1212]

Oh the Bard is Mance. Sorry, did I not mention that I saw that? He's got six women with him too. So yes, the bard is Mance Raydar. I also understood that Manderley was serving up dead Freys at a wedding feast, but wondered if there was more to it than that.

On Dany thinking she's immune, but then exposing absolutely everyone with her to Dysentery, that was one of those moments where Dany was trying to do the right thing, but was showing how unrealistic and unseasoned she can be, because no one else with her is thought to be immune to anything.

So it was actually kind of worse that she was practically forcing people who are loyal to her, to expose themselves to Dysentery, knowing she can't get it and apparently forgetting that it still matters whether or not they can. When it comes to the disenfranchised and those that would call her "mother" Dany reminds me of animal hoarders who think that they have 72 dogs because they love them so much and are doing what's best for the animals.

Meanwhile, they are living in squalor, sick and suffering, not properly vaccinated and just reinfecting one another with the same conjunctivitis until blindness occurs.

It takes more than caring, would be my point.

ETA: Thanks Terra Nova not knowing how to delete it sort of isn't the problem though. I'll get it when I get back home.

My parents got two puppies last year just before Christmas that were rescued from an animal hoarder, so... yeah.

Very, very sweet dogs, one of which is one of the smartest, and definitely the most "thinks he's a human" dog I've ever met (which I know everyone says, but I'm not especially prone to hyperbole and I've volunteered at a local animal shelter on and off for the last few years where I'm around a lot of dogs so I'm not completely talking out of my ass on that).

I get to dog sit this weekend, which is nice.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, you know, it really is not that I've seen the show, guys. The two stories are not that similar, although my goodness, does the show take the prize on the "dial it down, what are you even doing? Leave some room for people to think about this rather than clubbing into being desensitized!"

It's not that. I'm trying to think of a good analogy here and the best is one I think most have heard about fashion: if you want to achieve elegance when dressing, get entirely ready. Look in the mirror and remove one accessory.

There is craft in knowing when to stop. What to spare, how to be spare. Less can be far more powerful than too much lurid detail.

And I disagree that anything the Ramsay does at the end of that chapter is needed for details on the character. He's sufficiently developed "this guy is a monster, a true monster" ....by a lot. Rather than spelling out what it is that Ramsay is going to do, Martin had the power to leave it hanging. To trust his audience to explore what they know about the character and draw their own conclusions. It had the potential power to keep people up at night saying "Oh God what happened to her?" but instead he had to pour on the detail. Unnecessary detail. Jeyne has scars from being whipped, in case you were worried that she hasn't been hideously treated. Her clothes are cut from her body. Her body described in merciless "emphasize that she's just a child!" For some damned reason Martin then thought it necessary to add details about whether a terrified, beaten child, in the room with a monster was sufficiently lubricated.

When getting dressed for an evening, George Martin gets ready, stands in front of the mirror....and then dumps all the stored Christmas ornaments over his head and makes sure he has a battery pack for the blinking lights that act as his belt.

In all fairness, not always. Sometimes he beautifully hints at things and adds details throughout that are nice, gorgeous tie ins. It is the fact that the man can achieve writing elegance that makes that trait, that "Swing from the heels with a fucking caber" trait, regrettable as far as I'm concerned.

Whenever he does that it frustrates me more because he actually is better than that as a writer most of the time.

I get to dog sit this weekend, which is nice.

Yay!!! Puppies!!! Also? Yay!! Rescuers!! Also, I don't think I'd ever think someone was talking out of their butt about how wonderful, surprising and intelligent dogs can actually be. I actually had a dog at one point who was closer to being developmentally disabled than she was smart, we loved her dearly regardless, still I know it isn't universal. There are individuals in the canine world that are so smart and so adaptable, it is truly astounding. It's always super neat when you get to be around those dogs. Edited January 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Oh certainly. I've been around lots of dogs, some very smart and some most definitely less so, but it's still always fun to get to know them and their personalities.

And I'm going to stop there before I get into gushing about stuff that has nothing to do with A Song of Ice and Fire.

[WindyNights]

Without being completely sure, I think dragons "old and young, true and false, bright and dark" might refer to different people and the actual dragons rather than just two people.

Young = Daenerys' dragons

Old= Aemon

True = Jon

False = Aegon

Bright = Daenerys

Dark = Bloodraven

[stillshimpy]

Oh!! Well that's kind of a neat theory!!

One thing I do really love about Martin's writing is how patient he is, he will sow a seed in the narrative and then take his time paying that off. I did notice that Mantz had returned to Winterfell in the same guise he had used for king Roberts visit. Admittedly, I don't know why I think he'll be able to help Jeyne, but there's a chance he'll actually know who she isn't. So if nothing else at least Jon may know that is not Arya before the inevitable happens to him.

Edited January 16, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I think that's one of the reasons I kind of appreciate how long it takes him to write these things (though he could go a little faster). Like with Lost, a lot of the fun of this series comes from discussing it with other fans and picking it apart for all of the hidden little Easter eggs and clues as to what's going on (although in this case, I think most of the stuff is actually leading somewhere or are deliberate red herrings whereas, much as I did enjoy Lost, most of that was just weirdness for the sake of weirdness with no more planning behind it than that).

Once the series is done, a lot of the theorizing and discussion goes away. Not all of it, certainly, and I'm sure there will be plenty of little "Oh I didn't catch that!" moments that even future fans can enjoy long after the series has ended, but the theorizing will largely be done. Even the crazy crackpot theories that nobody takes seriously including the people that formed them in the first place are largely based on not knowing for sure how certain things turn out.

If we ultimately find out Varys is secretly a Blackfyre, there goes the Varys is a merling theory, for instance. And even if some things get left open ended, as I'm sure they will both because of just how much stuff is in the books that can't possibly all get explained in detail and because that seems to be a thing Martin likes to do: not explicitly answering every single question but leaving enough clues that you can figure it out for yourself if you really pay attention, well, even there we'll know which things do and don't have explicit answers, and there's only so much analysis you can pour into something once you definitely know it's not going to be further elaborated on one way or another.

So I'm enjoying having this extended period of "before the finale" time because I think this is a series that lends itself well to that time being especially fun.

[dragonbone]

Frey Pie and the fact that it's only hinted at is awesome. The same with slipping in Mance in disguise. These are two points where the writer assumes the reader is paying attention and has laid out all the clues needed to puzzle something together.

Something I note is that each POV character has a tone to the story. The story for Bran is plot wise is like the mythic Hero's journey cycle... where he starts ordinary but answers a call to power and eventually will return reborn as a master of both world, using Campbell's terminology. But here's the issue with that. The tone of the story doesn't match what you'd expect for something based on one of Campbell's myths. The tone for Bran's POV is right out of a horror story. He's been chased by undead, he's violated the "rules" that were established in the prologue, he violates Hodor at will and GRRM has hinted several times that he's consumed human flesh. First in Summer's skin, then later Coldhands brings back what he says is pig just after killing some of the Nights Watch. Even Bran finally getting his power and seeing through the eyes of a tree ends in human sacrifice.

GRRM uses the phase of the moon not just to mark the passage of time, but also to keep the tone dark .. "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." So here's a question... why is the tone still dark, when by Mythic standards Bran has survived "the ordeal" and is moving onto the "the reward".

This is speculation, but I think GRRM intends to subvert this trope. Bran is going to come out of this not as a hero of the story but as some sort of demon. Or at least, he's not going to be a hero like it seems that he will be.

The other thing that makes me believe this is the rule "if the author tells you what's coming...expect it to not happen" Nothing ever happens as planned. Any time the character tells you what his/her plans are it's almost a guarantee that it will not happen. "Jon, I'll tell you about your mother when I return", yeah right... "Drogo will take Danny's throne for her", etc.. GRRM is very careful to make sure every story takes sharp turns away from the expectations he builds for characters.

Edited January 16, 2016 by dragonbone

[stillshimpy]

Truthfully I find Bran's story one of the most reliably unsettling specifically because of absolutely everything with Hodor and it also makes me wonder if George R R Martin isn't secretly more than a little bit of an animal rights activist. So much of hodor's story is almost interchangeable with being a pack mule. He doesn't seem capable of independent thought. He can be frightened but almost everyone relates to him as a beast of burden versus a human being.

Although many of the chapters with Dany really concentrate on the evils of slavery, I can't really say that I believe Hodor is there by choice. They frequently treat him like an animal. In many ways Summer is given more agency and Hodor is treated like livestock. I found myself thinking that the last time Brandon just used Hodor's body, that for all Martin has a terribly upsetting approach to dogs in the narrative, He's usually just using them for emotional access in the tale, but it's Hodor almost seems interchangeable with the usual character of the faithful dog.

All of which is just an observation it's not any kind criticism, I think it's kind of a neat tool.

Edited January 16, 2016 by stillshimpy

[netlyon2]

Although many of the chapters with Danny really concentrate on the evils of slavery, I can't really say that I believe Hodor is there by choice. They frequently suits him like an animal. In many ways Summer is given more agency and Hodor is treated like livestock. I found myself thinking that the last time Brandon just used Hodor's body, that for all Martin has a terribly upsetting approach to dogs in the narrative, He's usually just using them for emotional access in the tale, but it's Hodor almost seems interchangeable with the usual character of the faithful dog.

I was never a fan of Bran, but his treatment of Hodor in this book pushed me into straight-up loathing for the character. I know it's a strongly negative reaction to a have about a child, especially one who's actions are rooted in his desire to walk again, but he's totally the worst. Your pack-mule analogy is quite apt; Hodor has been pretty ride-or-die without any appreciation from any of the characters. Martin allows us to value him through glimpses into his emotions and internal life, but the other characters really just see him as sub-human.

On another note (not for Shimpy),

Shimpy hasn't yet gotten to the worst Reek bit yet, at least for her. I'm not sure how she'll respond to Jane's "I'll do it with the dog again." On the one hand, she might just let it go out of sheer fatigue; it is a throwaway line, after all. However, with the reaction she's been having to Ramsey's depredations and the Reek chapters in general, I don't see this going well. Part of me just wants to warn her before she gets there.

ETA: Oh, and that foolishness with Ellaria Sand was the straw that broke the netlyon's back. Once I heard that (then) spoiler for Season 5, I was out. There were definitely other problems that I've had with the show over the years, but Ellaria was one of my top five minor characters precisely because she called out all of that Sand Snake foolery. I haven't watched since the Season 4 finale and I don't know if I'll ever go back to watching at this point.

Edited January 16, 2016 by netlyon2

[WindyNights]

@net That's not the line though. It's more like (not for shimpy)

Tell my beloved he doesn't have to cut feet off. I'll do anything even with....the dog which

suggests it hasn't happened yet.

[Alayne Stone]

Not for shimpy:

She's not going to like it. It's one of those off page things at least, but still. Probably the absolute worst violation of Jeyne. Ugh. And then just coming to realize that some of the Northern Lords really do realize it's not the real Arya Stark up there, but kind of being so broken by the state of things and the fact that it is *not* Arya Stark is the whole reason it is allowed to continue to happen. I have to say I'm happy the show spared us the whole dog portion of her rape, but the nuance of the situation was completely lost by putting Sansa in her place.

I know GRRM likes to subvert tropes, but I don't think he subverts them nearly as much as people tend to say. I don't see Bran as coming out evil in all of this, but I suppose that kind of all just depends on whether or not the children and Bloodraven are in actuality agents of the Others which is an interesting Hersey theory that I enjoy reading about even though I don't necessarily buy into it.

When you finish the series you'll have to check out the theory that ASOIAF is actually a retelling of the Ragnarok Norse mythology tale. It proposes that all the supposed heroes of the story (Dany for sure and also Tyrion, Jon and Bran if I am not mistaken) are actually the ultimate villains of the tale.

[stillshimpy]

Thank you guys for bearing with the weird language mistakes, I am running afoul of auto correct like mad on tablets, so I was using the voice option and apparently I sound like a Texan trying to speak French on certain words.

Funny thing about ellaria, there was a poster on TWOP with that as a user name, but I never knew the reference until she appeared on the show. Season four I thought, "interesting, free spirit, good choice" and by season five I was living in a world of what the fuck when it came to that. So the most recent chapter in Dorne finally cleared up for once and all "oh good, no way she was a fan of child murder! Good to know" . The poster was actually pretty darned cool, so season five was startling.

That's the thing with Martin's choices with Hodor and why I think it's like a swap on animal activism, Martin is absolutely inviting us to view the character in a way that the other characters don't. He invites sympathy for Hodor when the characters never seem to consider his feelings as anything other than an obstacle to be overcome in trying to achieve the goal of the moment. Hell, having a one word vocabulary seems very close to only being able to bark.

It's weird that The way Martin uses dogs has really more relationship to how people approach animals as a food source and indeed, he has moved into literally featuring worlds where dogs and puppies are, basically downgrading them on the emotional value scale continually and progressively.

Meanwhile he has had a big, loyal character who has simple, but understandable emotions , has practically chased sticks into a pond, can only communicate in one way and most recently was referred to as curling up with a whimper when Bran was just taking him over.

I do get that Bran is just a child whose ability to move freely was stolen from him in a very unfair manner, but he knows it's wrong --he hides taking Hodor over from the others -- and he also knows it frightens Hodor. I have to think Bloodraven does know , they are basically all dwelling in one big root structure so it seems like he must

[bobbybuilderton]

i think the ragnarok theory is a bit of a stretch in places, but it is a pretty cool theory

[Haleth]

Funny thing about ellaria, there was a poster on TWOP with that as a user name, but I never knew the reference until she appeared on the show. Season four I thought, "interesting, free spirit, good choice"

You know what? That was me. I was Ellaria Sand on TWoP after a mod there kept harassing me as Haleth so I created a new profile. I chose the name because book Ellaria was a fiercely protective mother and was able to tame Oberyn. That was before Dance when she was also shown to be a pragmatist and someone who abhorred violence.

[bobbybuilderton]

So here's a writeup of the Ragnarok theory. It may be safe for shimpy at this point, but I never read the whole thing so I can't say. http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

anyone want to confirm or deny it's spoiler-free by this point in the books? It's also a rather old version of the theory. I'm sure points have been debated and re-imagined by now

[netlyon2]

Golly, Shimpy, you're tempting me to do a Hodor-focused re-read!

I do get that Bran is just a child whose ability to move freely was stolen from him in a very unfair manner, but he knows it's wrong --he hides taking Hodor over from the others -- and he also knows it frightens Hodor. I have to think Bloodraven does know , they are basically all dwelling in one big root structure so it seems like he must

Oh, yes, Bran knowing that it's wrong and being fully aware of poor Hodor whimpering in a corner of his own mind is just apalling. Ultimately, he's doing more damage than the Walders and Ironborn and anyone else who's abused Hodor in the past.

I'm sure that Bloodraven knows; in fact, I'd wager that Bloodraven is allowing, if not encouraging, it. Abusing Hodor this way is just another step Bran is taking away from humanity. Then again, I'm also certain that Bloodraven caused Bran to fall from the tower. Sure, Jaime interrupted that header, but Bloodraven would have found another way if Jaime hadn't returned Bran to his previously-scheduled programming.

[WindyNights]

GRRM deconstructs tropes way, way more than he subverts them.

For instance, Cersei is a deconstruction of the evil queen from Snow White.

[mac123x]

I know GRRM likes to subvert tropes, but I don't think he subverts them nearly as much as people tend to say. I don't see Bran as coming out evil in all of this, but I suppose that kind of all just depends on whether or not the children and Bloodraven are in actuality agents of the Others which is an interesting Hersey theory that I enjoy reading about even though I don't necessarily buy into it.

Well, assuming the Others are actually evil (and not just doing a ridiculous "you kids get offa my lawn!" to everyone living north of the Wall), Bran & Bloodraven & the CotF seem to be on the side of good since they fight against wights. I get the impression that they are not, however, on the same side as the Lord of Light and his cronies.

Mel caught a glimpse of Bloodraven and Bran and immediately assumed they were servants of the Great Other. Mel is batting less than 0.500 on correctly interpreting her visions, but there's a lot about the Old Gods group that conflicts with LoL's group. The red priests continually harp about"For the night is dark and full of terrors", how Great Other is darkness and death, etc. They're very anti-darkness.

Then you get this passage, Bloodraven talking to Bran: "'Never fear the darkness, Bran.... The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong. If only you knew the power of the dark side. Join me and together we can rule the galaxy!" I may be misquoting a bit, but Bloodraven is definitely pro-darkness.

Reconciling these two groups to get them to fight along side each other against the common foe has the potential to be just as fucked up as Jon trying to get the Wildlings and the Nightswatch to work together.

[Delta1212]

Keeping in mind GRRM's consistent themes and stated points of view on things, I would be very hesitant to say that simply being opposed to the Others, who we are assuming are evil, then makes you good.

Evil can fight evil. Good can fight good. Sometimes there are more than two sides and each has its own share of good and evil to varying degrees.

You could have the Land of Always Winter vs the Root Network vs the Mother of Dragons vs Holy R'hllors vs the Citadel vs the Faceless Men vs the Night Watch without them all falling neatly into good vs evil or shaping up along even battle lines.

[Terra Nova]

So much of hodor's story is almost interchangeable with being a pack mule. He doesn't seem capable of independent thought. He can be frightened but almost everyone relates to him as a beast of burden versus a human being.

I think the parallel is very fitting, since Bran's story is an echo of the Last Hero Journey, who left with his companions (the Reeds,), his dog (Summer) and his horse (Hodor).

Alas, treatment of dogs was still quite poor only one hundred years ago, and straight-out horrifying if you read about Amundsen's polar expeditions. Not to mention how other species were treated...

But I quite disagree about the 'Bloodraven is EVIL! In league with the Others!' theories, nor do I think the Others are something more than a destructive force opposed to life and mankind. Martin doesn't twist the story for the sake of it, and even the supposedly left-field shocks are well rooted in the narrative: if anything, the reader is so used to the little last-minute trick that allows the goodies to save their lives that he actively discards hints that it's not really the case (as Shimpy herself noted with Robb approaching the Twins, with a little help of the benefit of hindsight).

Now, just to add more fodder to the discussion: I checked in the topic and found nothing, surprisingly: the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree has never been discussed!

Finally, because I had too much free time (I couldn't sleep), I came up with 'The Ballad of Lord-too-Fat', with rhymes, rhythm and metric rearranged in a post-modern fashion... that's to say, completely random ^^'

(spoilered for length)

Attend the tale of Lord-too-Fat

His girth was huge, his belly not flat

He baked the bodies of treasonous scum

Who never thereafter were heard of again

He trod a path that few have trod

Did Lord-too-Fat

The jolly baker of Merman’s Court

He kept a court in White Harbor

Of weaselly guests of poor renown

And what if none of Frey souls were saved?

They went to their makers impeccably baked

By Wyman

By Lord-too-Fat

The jolly baker of Merman’s Court

Swing your trident wide, Wyman!

Hold it to the skies!

Freely flows the blood of those who breach guests’ right!

His needs were many, his table was laid:

A massive trestle and a sturdy chair

A mug of ale and lamprey pies

Beef ribs, cod cakes, and even Frey guys

For gluttony he deserved a clap

Did Lord-too-Fat

The jolly baker of Merman’s Court

Quite conspicuous, Wyman was

Quick and loud and drunk, he was

Back of his smile, under his word

Wyman heard music that nobody heard

Wyman pondered and Wyman planned

Like a true Northerner, he planned

Wyman was smooth, Wyman was subtle

Wyman would ask, for Rats to be sung of

Wyman! Wyman! Wyman! Wyman!

Wyman!

Attend the tale of Lord-too-Fat

He served old, pale, and vengeful gods

What happened then, well, that is Dance

And he wouldn't want us to give it away

Not Wyman

Not Lord-too-Fat

The jolly baker of Merman’s Court

ETA: speaking of tiny details Martin puts several books in advance, in Bran IV waaaay back in 'A Game of Thrones', about 'Hodor' being the only word Hodor has:

 

Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name

Edited January 16, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

Yeah, Bran skinchanging Hodor is not good. The image of Hodor whimpering in the back of his own mind is disturbing. I don't know if Bloodraven knows or encourages it, but someone better tell Bran to knock it off. It's an assault. Maybe he can be forgiven for doing it while they were under attack, but wanting to tag along with Meera for his own pleasure is hardly a good reason to mind rape a mentally challenged man.

Speaking of skinchanging, I read something that I apparently glossed over on previous reads of Dance (spoilered since Shimpy isn't there yet).

Blind Beth sees that it is the Kindly Man smacking her with a stick because she wargs into the stray cat that follows her into the HoB&W. She's very aware she has the ability to warg into creatures other than Nymeria. Cool!

I don't think Bloodraven/the Children/the root network will turn out to be evil. They've had thousands of years to reclaim the land from the descendants of the First Men but never did anything to threaten them.

[Trisan]

Regarding your spoiler tag :

 

I dont know if she did it consciously or not... perhaps she did it "naturally" without even fully realizing what she was doing. But I look forward to the day she'll grasp the full meaning of that ability... if it ever comes !

[John Potts]

I'm definitely a fan of the fact that even the "Good Guys" are doing morally questionable actions: presumably not ALL the Freys are pure evil, yet they seem to be all tarred with the same brush and are paying the price - likewise, the fact that the Nazis were definitely in the evil column didn't put the USSR in the "good" column just because they were on "our" (by which I mean the UK/US/Allied) side. I think Mel is a great example of a character who (I believe) is acting out of sincere belief that she is fighting the good fight, I just wouldn't want to meet her (even if she is hot, in more ways than one). I don't see Bloodraven ticking off Bran for Warging Hodor for exactly that reason: if necessary, the pawns (Hodor) must be sacrificed to keep the critical pieces (Bran) alive. And I don't really blame Bran either: how many seven(?) year old kids have a fully developed idea of how much a violation taking control of Hodor's body is (or to use a pet analogy, kids might pull the tail of a cat because they can and until they get scratched or smacked for doing it, they don't really consider how it might be unpleasant for the cat). Incidentally, I did find on YouTube a fan theory about how the Others weren't necessarily evil and how the conflict between humanity & the Great Other will be resolved by a peace treaty (by marriage, like the old marriage of the Night Watch Commander taking an Other bride thousands of years back) rather than dragonfire - it was actually quite interesting, even if I didn't agree with it (sorry, I can't remember who said it).

I'm also in the camp that horrors don't have to be described: in fact, sometimes they're more powerful for not being described. (Later book 5 spoiler)

The fact that we don't hear what Ramsay has actually done to Jeyne but just hear her screams and her plea to be let off with just more violations if she can only keep her feet makes us wonder just how bad her treatment must be (it's the same reasoning that says you don't show the monster because what's hidden is usually worse than what you do see).

And in terms of Subverting tropes, I'd like to have a prophecy turn out exactly as the hearer expects (which really would be a subversion), so it turns out Tyrion really IS the Valonquar.

[Delta1212]

John Potts: The stuff you mentioned with Jeyne hasn't happened yet.

[Chris24601]

i think the ragnarok theory is a bit of a stretch in places, but it is a pretty cool theory

The main reason I discount the Ragnarok theory is that if all GRRM was doing was just creatively retelling Ragnarok it wouldn't be taking him so darned long to finish his series because he'd already know what comes next.

 

The second reason I doubt it because just going down the list of which god/giant is associated with character the myths don't fit the respective character beyond the most surface of details and they really have to torture the individual myths to make them fit the book characters (ex. the claim is that Bloodraven is Loki, but wait, in trying to make Sansa fit as Idunn they then claim that Littlefinger is Loki).

 

If GRRM was just retelling the tale of Ragnarok then you shouldn't have to apply such convolutions to make the story fit. I put what similarities there are down to the simple fact that both stories are dealing with a societal breakdown on the eve of an apocalypse and so certain archetypes pop up (ex. the guy trying to benefit from the chaos while ignorant that the apocalypse is going to rob him of all his temporary gains).

[Which Tyler]

I don't think that anyone has claimed that GRRM is JUST retelling Ragnorak; anymore than he's JUST retelling the War of the Roses or JUST deconstructing genre tropes.

[stillshimpy]

I will read the newest posts right after this but I just had an"ohhhh duh" moment, "beware the perfumed sensechal (best I could do...autocorrect practically asked me if I could smell smoke on that one) " and Tyrion is on the .... Annoyingly named ship (I will thwart you autocorrect) whose name means Stinky advisor?

Yup, it took getting a couple of paragraphs into the Pig Riding chapter to have my "oooooh! Look!" Moment!

ETA: on the subject of how dogs are treated in the story and whether that would be accurate to a time period akin to the one being depicted....sort of and sort of not...dogs were pets and working animals, in some places used as food sources, so some of the callousness would be accurate. However, Martin making the choice to include so much of it and revisit it is a storytelling decision. He isn't writing historical fiction and the inclusion of something depicted in an upsetting manner is purposeful.

ETA2: I think the evil of the Others is obvious from the perspective of humanity in this story. Overall they seem to serve some cyclical purpose. The stuff in the Citadel and with Bloodraven suggests a manipulative force, set to achieve something. Maybe a world reset or something (tablet speak...can't be too wordy) ...but one thing that is intriguing in the story is how often a vast history of an established world has been mentioned...with a seemingly static level of advancement.

No clue what that suggests for the purpose of the Others, but it seems intriguing.

Edited January 16, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

On the subject of Bran being too young to get that what he is doing is wrong--okay, sure, it would be a rare nine year old who could get the width, depth and breadth of the magnitude of how wrong it truly is -- but Bran does actually have an inkling of how wrong it is. He is hiding it for a reason, presumably when Bran checks out and into someone or something else, his real body manifests signs of that, so he has to be careful to conceal it. He also pretends to be Hodor.

He understands that what he is doing is wrong , but it's too tempting and he has been sans parental, instructive guidance since he was seven.

However, here's the problem: every single living person will end up being akin to Hodor when compared to Bran. He has super human gifts. Setting aside all questions morality as it pertains solely to Hodor, what will being able to ignore a simpler construct' humanity mean, not for Hodor, but for everyone else Bran can deem as lesser?

Isn't that easily compared most accurately not to a child with a cat, but to the Others animating the dead for their own purposes after killing them? Treating people as useful tools and shells to be animated by a more powerful enemy?

I think that is why Bloodraven is letting it go on (he has to know, Bran's vacant body would be right there in the roots) because it has to go on long enough for Brynden to be able to have him fully understand the comparison. Bran first did that a a necessity of keeping them all from being discovered, now he is doing it for entertainment purposes.

Bloodraven was almost certainly animating Coldhands which is pretty much interchangeable with what the Others do. I doubt that is a coincidence in terms of why it is considered an abomination. Brynden was presumably doing that to save the world. Bran is doing it as compensation for what was taken from him and for kicks.

It's really, really bad and Martin choosing a person everyone relates to as a simple animal has to be deliberate, but all people will soon be simple animals to Bran.

[Terra Nova]

I think though that's still debatable whether Bran can skinchange people, or if Hodor's mental limitations are what makes it possible in this case. After all, Varamyr seems to me very skilled and he couldn't even stop the spearwife from mutilating herself (or better, 'themselves'. I always liked the way it was phrased, especially the 'she spat out their tongue' part).

I remember being very surprised when the show had Jojen emphatically proclaim that 'no one does it (occupying human bodies)'. It seemed one of those exaggerations of the show, like

Dany being immune to fire

. It didn't appear a given, to me.

 

As for Coldhands, I assume that there's something else into play, maybe him being a corpse already, that allow the skinchanging - if he is in fact possessed by Bloodraven -. But true, Brynden had a very realpolitik-ish approach even back he was Hand, now that he's facing the Others he will have even less qualms. If he indeed knows about Bran, he surely won't forbid it. I guess in his mind Bran has to be able to sacrifice people for the greater good, so a little objectification will do wonder anyway

Edited January 16, 2016 by Terra Nova

[dragonbone]

GRRM deconstructs tropes way, way more than he subverts them.

For instance, Cersei is a deconstruction of the evil queen from Snow White.

 

So I spent a while thinking on what he was deconstructing with Bran's tale... All I came up with C.H.U.D  "Cannibalistic Humanioid Underground Dweller".  The tale of what drives a young boy to become a C.H.U.D.

 

Also this chapter reminded me of this scene back from Feast:

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only...

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky.

Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

 

 

 

From the moment I read this I worried about the Wolf's reaction to the smell.  In the story, wolves have an ability to tell friend from foe and to sense danger by smell alone.  When the wolf smells something and bristles at it, it's a real message that there is danger here..danger usually not seen by the human counterpart until after the fact.  Bran seems to try to reassure him about the dark..I think the wolf was reacting to something else.

 

Bloodraven's cave is littered with tons of bones.  I assume Bloodraven has taken control of living things that were nearby and forced them to walk into the cave..then had each creature kill itself so that it could be eaten.  I don't think he's going to say anything about Bran violating Hodor.  

 

Not even to mention...why should the singers really like humans anyway? When thinking of the end of the children's race Bran thinks:

Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

Who says the singers haven't plotted something? 

 

GRRM doesn't cheat just to make a sharp right turn with a character... Plenty of groundwork has been laid out here to support Bran turning evil or supporting an evil cause.  So much groundwork I can't see it going any other way.  I say evil, but the book avoids absolute characters (with the exception of Ramsey) and prefers to paint in shades of grey.

Edited January 16, 2016 by dragonbone

[Terra Nova]

Uh-oh, I assumed from a short sentence that Shimpy had read two chapters with Theon's POV, and I wrote a mildly spoilerish comment. Sorry for that :| I hope it flew under the radars.

[stillshimpy]

I'll live, Terra. Mistakes happen, no worries. Plus, I am usually pretty good at bailing as soon as I am into "wait, what? When?" Territory. In this instance that is genuinely all I remember...realizing I didn't understand what was being said and fleeing.

[WSmith84]

As you can imagine shimpy, there are a ton of fan-theories about Bran's stuff, including a rather disturbing one called Jojenpaste. It's basically a theory that Jojen is giving blood (willingly or unwillingly) to enhance Bran's powers and that the red veins that appear in the weirwood sap that Bran eats are actually Jojen's blood. I think (season 4 spoiler)

Jojen dying in the show fuelled interest in this theory.