Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

mac123x · January 11, 2016

However, I definitely have gotten the "Wrong Side of the Targ Coin" vibe from Dany and that was when Viserys was killed in front of her and maybe it is how Clarke decided to play the scene, but she seemed insane in that moment.

So I rewatched that scene on the Blu-Ray, and she definitely has a similar off-putting look on her face when she watches Viserys's coronation. Interesting bit from the commentary track (Emilia Clarke, Harry Lloyd, Peter Dinklage and the director commentating): Clarke says her thoughts were that as soon as Viserys put a sword to Dany's stomach and threatened the life of her unborn child, she was done with him, and that informed how she played the scene.

That's the attitude I saw on her initial reaction when Drogo's minions grabbed Viserys. She moved past "justifiable homicide" and into "morbid fascination" crazy-pants territory when Jorah suggested that she look away, and she basically said "no, I want to see this."

glowbug · January 11, 2016

Sorry, I'm late to the discussion. I don't think it would have mattered had Lyanna left Rhaegar and admitted that she had gone willingly (if in fact she did). The war really wasn't about Rhaegar abducting Lyanna. It was the simply the catalyst. The war was about the Mad King and his increasingly volatile actions. While Robert may have been fighting solely or mostly because of Lyanna, all of the other characters had other more important reasons. Aside from Ned, I don't think Lyanna's abduction was even a factor for anyone else who joined the rebellion. Finding out that Lyanna was complicit in the abduction wouldn't have changed anything for Ned either since the deaths of his father and brother alone were enough of a reason to rebel.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were clearly reckless in their actions and share a large part of the blame for the war with their initial decision to run off together, but I don't think Rhaegar keeping Lyanna at the ToJ or her choosing to stay was wrong. Lyanna likely stayed at the ToJ instead of going home in order to protect herself and her unborn child. I wouldn't put it past Robert to kill Lyanna for betraying him (friendship with Ned or not—it's pretty clear from A Game of Thrones that Robert did whatever the hell he wanted without consideration for anyone else) and I certainly don't think Jon would have survived if Robert had gotten to him. If sacrificing herself would have stopped the war then I would agree that Lyanna was selfish and should have returned home, but since I don't think it would have changed anything and likely would have gotten her killed much sooner, I don't really blame her for the decision (if in fact it was her decision), especially since she also had her unborn child to consider as well.

stillshimpy · January 13, 2016

By the way, guys, I'll be traveling again this week so that means I should be able to make some good reading progress, but limited opportunity to comment much for a few days. Sorry, I always feel strange updating things like that, but I figure that it's better not to leave anyone hanging.

So I just finished Dany's chapter where things have gone spectacularly to (bloody) shit and Mereen really seems to be in seriously danger. Things are pretty grim and she's just called for Hizdahr. The plot feels very different, so I'm not really sure what's to come. Plus, I'm assuming that Quentyn and Tyrion will be showing up, if not shortly, before the end of the book and that fits with Quaithe's astrally projecting prophecy, since ....look, there was the pale horse.

Then when I got to the end of the chapter I saw that the next one is a Melisandre POV. Okay, I wasn't expecting that and I have to confess, my reaction is more "Eek" than "Yay" at the concept, but we'll see!

jellyroll2 · January 13, 2016

That Melisandre chapter will leave you with your mouth hanging open. :)

stillshimpy · January 13, 2016

Whoa, okay didn't see that one coming!! At least that explains why Mance Rayder didn't act at all like Mance Rayder when he was executed!! Well played, book, well played!! It also explains why The Lord of Bones was able to so handily kick Jon's ass in the practice yard!

So what an intriguing and peculiar chapter -- at first I was mainly struck by how weirdly sincere Melisandre is, which is surprising because her show counterpart is never played that way --and then I was kind of cracking up over the fairly obvious "Oh R'Hollor, Lord of Light, show me Azor Ahai!! Show me Stannis, the reborn Azor Ahai, Warrior of....what is Jon Snow doing there? Weird....Oh LORD LIGHT SHOW ME.....enough with the Jon Snow!! Jeez, R'hollor must be in a mood to not show me what I'm asking to see...the flames are cryptic and capricious....maybe later R'Hollor will show me Stannis the Lord of....Huh...again. Oh the whims of the gods, who can predict them? Maybe Later R'Hollor will show me Azor Ahai....Huh....Jon Snow with Neon Arrows, clearly I must ask later to be shown Azor Aha....huh....Jon Snow, blinking, with a neon sign that says "You are Here".....well, obviously the Lord of Light has other work for me today!!"

R'Hollor wishes he had a face and palm, so that he could adequately facepalm.

She also saw Weirwoods are Us, King Root Dude, in the ...bark....also know as Bloodraven, plus Bran.

So the girl in Grey she is seeing is Jeyne Poole, presumably being hunted by Ramsay. Poor Jeyne and presumably poor Mance having to face-off with Ramsay :-/ This isn't likely to end all that well.

Also, nice use of an "Oh....shit." moment when Melisandre talked about Mance's son being there at the Wall. So she clearly doesn't see everything accurately and that was a moment of "ooooohhhh....no, well....it was a good plan except for how Melisandre didn't really kill Mance....."

So she isn't at all what I thought she was going to be and I'm not taking it too seriously that she thinks Jon is truly Ned Stark's son, although it's at least a little fun to have that suggested, since the narrative hardly ever does put that out there as an actual possibility. She thought about Robb in terms of being Jon's trueborn brother.

And the next chapter is freaking Reek. Okay, I can do this, I know I can.

Edited January 13, 2016 by stillshimpy

Haleth · January 13, 2016

Whew, it's been hard not to drop hints regarding Mance and the premature report of his death.

Your account of Mel's visions is hilarious. For someone who presents such a formidable figure both in the books and show, her POV revealing just how clueless she is is interesting. Poor Mel is so convinced she is backing the right hero, she's (snow) blind to who is right in front of her.

Terra Nova · January 13, 2016

Shimpy, take abundant notes of what you will read while traveling, we want to know every bit of your thoughts about the next chapters!

last Bran's chapter, at least two of Theon, ack! Ellaria not-so-keen on reveeeenge!

Re: Mance there was also what he said to Jon, about singing a pretty song if he wanted, but seven hells he wanted none of those black cloaks!

And yeah, readers can tell Mel is a tad mistaken about Azohr Ahai, but I liked that she asked for Devan so to keep him safe. Also, in the books the reader has reached a point where either he knows about Jon's parentage (and I think he is supposed to know since book 1; those dreams about the crypt in book 3 should speak more of Jon's feelings about his bastardry than giving other clues to the reader), or he's so blind to the notion that only the final reveal will convince him: so I think Mel missing the real AA shouldn't be taken that harshly.

How much your perception of Mel is changed, Shimpy? I ask especially because, apart for the EVIL vibe, in the series her 'seduction' seems reduced to flashing boobs. Even her attempt with Jon came out as pretty gross.

ETA: Basically, the series took the first impression the reader may get about Melisandre (the evil promiscuous seductress) and played it straight to the bitter end: now you see Mel showing compassion and decency re: Davos and his son, while in the series we have her gloating the day after the (season 5 spoiler)

Baratheon Barbecue, so devoid of human decency that she's practically dancing in front of the dead girl's father.

Sometimes I think Martin is too good at creating vivid first impressions in the reader, so much that they won't change (see the irrational hate about Sansa, or the acritic justifications for Tyrion's worst acts in some parts of the fandom).

Season 5 spoilers

I tried to stay away from spoiler before Season 5, but I knew Sansa was going to WInterfell and dreading the implications: when I saw Mance dismissed in the first episode with a kick in his wildling butt (the death being promptly confirmed by the actor), I knew things were going to be terribly awry.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Terra Nova

stillshimpy · January 13, 2016

I was just telling Mya that my disappointment with the show is developing layers. I don't understand the choice to ditch anything with a magical bent to it and I don't understand why characters are made less complex.

Melisandre on the show is not in the least earnest. There's no way to believe she's anything other than an Evil Cartoon and someone who doesn't care enough about people to actually be in league with anything other than some demonic force. That's a big problem with Show Melisandre, it's clear from her POV chapter that she has her own kind of honor and -- bizarrely for someone who lights up people like kindling -- her intentions don't read as evil or uncaring. Yes, she knows she's trying to manipulate Jon but she seems to believe she's on the side of an actual god. She isn't working from the Evil Agendas Are Us, handbook which her show counterpart truly seems to be.

But Book Mel isn't just trying to make a meal out of Jon Snow and Show Mel has such active contempt for everyone around her. As for Show Mel's "I know! I'll get naked as my next move!! But I won't dial down the contempt because we all know the sight of my breast robs all men -- and women -- of the ability to think of anything else. Wooo hooo! Check 'em out. Goddess on the Mountaintop! Burning like a real live flame!! R'Hollor, give them all Boob Blindness so that I can bend them to my will!" gig. Yeah, that's a characterization trait brought to you by the "Have we met the Breast Quota for this episode yet?" boys in the Boob HeadQuarters Boardroom.

I won't be gone until tomorrow, so I have been reading, but I promise to take notes :-) I love the hell out of that feature of e-readers.

I just read Theon's most recent chapter and once again, I'm baffled by the show's choices because all along I've argued that the problem with House Bolton and Ramsay is that no one can actually hold onto power for any length of time by acting like that. They'll just be stopped by people who are completely horrified by what they are doing OR and in fairness, this is just as likely as the Concerned Citizen, by someone who recognizes that there's no way to have an actual alliance worth a damn with someone who is that vicious and twisted.

Still more of Martin's dog related dreck , which really has just gotten to the point of pissing me off because of how it's such a go-to for him, so I just try to ignore it. It has the problem of actually losing any power because it is overused. Ramsay is actually sort of boring in the books too though. I mean, he's gross and all, evil, yadda yadda. Deeply broken etc. but he's running into that problem that most one-note characters encountered: it just becomes predictable and loses the shock value. Same deal with the stuff with the dogs.

But Bolton is at least presenting himself as being fairly aware and understanding why he needs to be careful with his antics. He apparently got the "this only ever ends with Killed By His Own Legion if taken too far" memo, but he's just as twisted as Ramsay. Sure, it was interesting to learn that he was careful to hide what he did at home from Ned Stark, but I guessed as much. It was also interesting to learn that he's been married twice before and apparently knows that Ramsay kills his trueborn children....but that detail started to fall down at least a little bit. I get that his view of Ramsay killing Domeric is that he doesn't have time to raise his actual heir now, so Ramsay will have to do. Clearly Bolton's just as much of a psycho, he's just a more politic one, but Domeric being murdered by Ramsay couldn't matter to him...because he's actually incapable of loving or caring about anyone.

Okay, got it. Fine. I see the book story of Ramsay's mother is just as over-the-top evil as the show's , so that's one area that the show wasn't ditching the source material's subtlety. It's also clear that Bolton is manipulating Theon.

Moving over to season five

So it's frustrating as all, ever-living-hell that the chief complaint about 'all the North cares about is someone with the Stark name in Winterfell to rally around, but they wouldn't be fussed about the deplorable treatment of said Stark" which is a GIANT problem with the bill of goods they tried to sell in the Sansa story. It was senseless that they'd try to simultaneously pull the "key to the North" "but no one cares how the key is actually treated...because they're all stupid that way...." thing. So it was nice to see the book directly addressing that as an actual freaking concern. God, it's been good to know that the bulk of the screaming outrage I felt at the show...the show was actually earning when juxtaposed with the source material.

So the other interesting thing about the book is finding out that Bolton has an accomplice in the form of Lady Dustin, who actively blamed Ned Stark for the death of her husband.

By the way, another thing that the whole Mance development points towards is not really trusting Martin when he says he just made a mistake. Because thanks to stuff like Jeyne Westerling's descriptions not matching up from Cat to Jaime, I just took it as read that Martin wasn't actually being that careful. So when Mance seemed out of character for his execution, I thought it was just a moment of being sloppy and overplaying it. It didn't feel like Mance. Sort of the same deal when The Lord of Bones was handing Jon his ass. It felt like that had directly contradicted who I thought LoB was, but...I thought it was a ret-con to advance the plot and didn't hone in on it as anything other than "that's an inconsistency in characterization...because it was a mistake".

So I am really starting to understand why there are so many fan theories around everything and it also makes me really disinclined to truly believe it when Martin said he just made a mistake. Not that I think Jeyne has really been replaced with a different Jeyne Westerling, just I get why readers zero in on something like that as a possible plot choice first, rather than assuming an error as the go-to assumption.

So Lyanna Stark was quite the horsewoman and Domeric knew her, as did Lord Bolton.

Okay, so there is one thing with Bolton fully understanding that "You have to be more careful than to rub your evil in someone's face, if it conflicts with their loyalties, or makes them fear for their own skin...." Theon already knows the latter to be true and all this business of emphasizing that everyone calls him Theon Turncloak now (which...he earned, but he's in such deplorable shape that I can't help but wince on his behalf) ...and it does make me wonder what the hell Bolton is really up to when telling Theon all that stuff.

However, this is the guy who helped deceive his liege lord, and assisted in the whole "Let's break that guest right!" thing, so if he really wanted to be rid of Ramsay, it seems as if he'd be unlikely to hesitate to just get rid of him. Still, I can't figure out what Bolton's real game would be in talking with that much seeming frankness to Theon.

Also, more than a little trippy how many times they took lines and stories from Bolton and turned them into Tywin's material in the show. The actor playing Bolton must just be thrilled with how many times his material was super-imposed onto Charles Dance's character.

ETA: And predictably, Wyman Manderley's doom is being spelled out, since Bolton doesn't believe he's loyal. Poor Manderley, I am now very worried about the son he was trying so hard to save. At least some Freys bit it.

Big Walder not being as big of a psycho as Little Walder and Ramsay is a nice detail, I guess.

Edited January 13, 2016 by stillshimpy

Terra Nova · January 13, 2016

Roose Bolton from Season 3 onwards has been criminally underused: it's a beautiful character - a horrible human being that screams "beat me to death, than impale me and drown me for good measure!' - and much more compelling than Ramsay... which on the other hand is just a brute, a psycho with some low cunning and a chip on the shoulder heavier than Mont Blanc.

On another note, the three poor Freys have disappeared! We are all oh so crushed!

And it's telling that Big Walder says: "Oh, Manderly killed them. That's what I would have done, btw."

ETA: about the Hips-gate, this is unfortunately a case where Martin really made a mistake: the screenshots of later editions of Feast float in the internet and the phrase about the hips has been removed... so much for my wish for a pregnant Jeyne on the run :(

Edited January 13, 2016 by Terra Nova

stillshimpy · January 13, 2016

Yeah, I appreciated that Big Walder was voicing yet another problem with the Red Wedding: Even if you get away with something like that, it makes you less safe in other ways. Everyone wants revenge and is just biding their time trying to figure out how to get it.

And you know what, I hope Manderly did kill them, because it might be the only satisfaction the poor man is likely to have, as he totters towards the second worst wedding ever.

Oh...and I have no idea what was meant to be wrong with the original Reek, but doing things like drinking perfume (presumably to get rid of his stink) was one of the stranger details I've ever seen in a story.

Terra Nova · January 13, 2016

Yeah, I appreciated that Big Walder was voicing yet another problem with the Red Wedding: Even if you get away with something like that, it makes you less safe in other ways. Everyone wants revenge and is just biding their time trying to figure out how to get it.

That's why I was surprised that Bolton didn't even think that maybe three just stumbled on some peasant too keen on 'The North remembers!' shtick - some real peasant, not the show ones -. The Freys are not living by 'a peaceful land, a quiet people', they're not even trying!

ETA: that's another thing I appreciate about book!Roose: he has a, though hazy, notion that common people have a weight in the politics of the North... as spreader of unpleasant rumors, but better than the complete blindness the Freys live in.

In fact, it's Ramsay inability to grasp that that's already causing problems: someone knows what he does to young peasant girls, because of some of them living to tell the tale; and that someone was already preparing to squash him like a roach (falling on him should suffice) back in Clash... it was only the capture of Winterfell (the Author flexing his fingers) that saved Ramsay's butt back there.

ETA 2 (geez, I'm writing too much! ^^'): What do you think of the Arnolf the Boltons were talking about and the trap Stannis just evaded? Can you remember who this guy is?

Not for Shimpy, Dance spoilers

"I hope Manderly did kill them, because it might be the only satisfaction the poor man is likely to have" just wait and see, wait and see

Edited January 13, 2016 by Terra Nova

Dev F · January 13, 2016

I was just telling Mya that my disappointment with the show is developing layers. I don't understand the choice to ditch anything with a magical bent to it and I don't understand why characters are made less complex.

Interestingly, if I remember correctly, one of the DVD commentary tracks for season 2 pretty strongly implies that at that point the showrunners were planning to retain the "Melisandre's appearance is a glamour" character point. It's in the scene in the finale where Stannis is strangling Mel, and one of the commenters -- maybe director Alan Taylor? -- points out that Carice van Houten's body language is a clue to some element of the character that has yet to be revealed. I assume he's referring to the way that Melisandre stops struggling and goes limp like a puppet whose strings have been cut -- like an illusion with no one-to-one connection to what the real Mel is going through in that moment.

And even if I'm misremembering the commentary, Carice van Houten does seem to be playing exactly that, which seems to suggest that she was instructed to portray Mel as in some respects illusory. (And the actress is on record as not having read the books and not knowing where they are going, so it's not like she could've pulled those details from her own reading.) It's only later that the writers seem to back away from that -- for instance, in the scene from season 4 where we see her in all her naked glory, still beautiful despite the fact that she's not wearing her enchanted choker.

I actually suspect that this is something the producers backed away from when they decided to mess with Mance's storyline in season 5 -- and I think it has more to do with story economy than a desire to un-magic everything. (season 5 spoilers)

That is, I think they killed Mance off for reals because they plan to give his subsequent storyline to a different character, which then rendered the rest of Mel's glamour stuff irrelevant. But I'll have more to say about that when we get into Mance's later book stuff.

nksarmi · January 13, 2016

Shimpy, I think even those of us who didn't love Dance enjoyed the North plotline. As someone who does not like Sansa's Vale story - I was happy they (season five)

moved her into the North. Of course, I foolishly thought that a) they wouldn't have her undergo the same treatment as Jeyne P and b) if they kept the rape, it would be marital rape (unpleasant and unenjoyable sex where the husband asserts his rights as the woman who is unable to decline just suffers through) as opposed to Sansa screaming on my television set... so I was a wee bit disappointed. And still, I could have accepted this plot line if we had the rest of the Northern story that you are just starting to dip into. All I can say is what. a. waste.

.

WindyNights · January 13, 2016

GRRM's mentioned that Melisandre is his most misunderstood character.

A shame that the show follows that misunderstanding. I like Book Melisandre as a character.

WSmith84 · January 13, 2016

Personally, I think Roose is talking nonsense about him not caring about Ramsey killing his sons. I think that he's just telling Theon what Ramsey would like to hear. I think Roose's real plan is to get a few heirs to Winterfell from Ramsey and 'Arya' and then kill Ramsey, before he becomes too problematic.

WindyNights · January 13, 2016

I really do assume that Roose doesn't really care. The only thing he's interested in is amusing himself.

chandraReborn · January 13, 2016

I think the reason Jeyne Westerling was thinner when Jaime saw her was because she'd lost weight. The detail is there to show us that she hasn't been eating much since Rob died--along with how she tears her clothing on purpose.

mac123x · January 13, 2016

Interestingly, if I remember correctly, one of the DVD commentary tracks for season 2 pretty strongly implies that at that point the showrunners were planning to retain the "Melisandre's appearance is a glamour" character point. It's in the scene in the finale where Stannis is strangling Mel, and one of the commenters -- maybe director Alan Taylor? -- points out that Carice van Houten's body language is a clue to some element of the character that has yet to be revealed. I assume he's referring to the way that Melisandre stops struggling and goes limp like a puppet whose strings have been cut -- like an illusion with no one-to-one connection to what the real Mel is going through in that moment.

The comment was about Carice's behavior right after Stannis stopped choking her, that she acted like something coming back to life. It really is quite creepy to see. Given her internal monologue in the book about how she needs to remind herself to eat and only sleeps for catnaps (and hopes to eventually no longer require any sleep) I get the impression that, functionally, she's not all that different from a wight, just more sentient.

WindyNights · January 13, 2016

So basically UnBeric.

Edited January 13, 2016 by WindyNights

Autarch · January 13, 2016

I get the feeling she's more like a "fire Other" than a wight.

WindyNights · January 14, 2016

Please just let her be living. Can't Stannis have a good thing and be banging a hot red-head without her also needing to be dead.

TRIVIA: Although actually Melisandre doesn't have red hair. She has strawberry-blonde hair.

Edited January 14, 2016 by WindyNights

Ashara Payne · January 14, 2016

Are most people assuming that Stannis is continually having sex with her? I just assumed it only happened to make a shadow-baby, and that he'd die if he did it again.

bobbybuilderton · January 14, 2016

Stannis probably doesn't like sex. Can't figure out what she expects of him so just avoids it altogether.

WindyNights · January 14, 2016

Are most people assuming that Stannis is continually having sex with her? I just assumed it only happened to make a shadow-baby, and that he'd die if he did it again.

Well Stannis doesn't know that sex with Melisandre creates a shadowbaby. Melisandre even says that her bed sees little use since Stannis left the Wall. Now for all we know they could be having a cuddle party because even the one true king needs some affection but it's more likely that they have sex with each other.

Ashara Payne · January 14, 2016

Oh, right, I missed that!!

Andeleisha · January 14, 2016

I for one would not mind a few more cuddle parties in this series. Emotional and Jedi cuddling also acceptable.

WindyNights · January 14, 2016

I get the idea that Seylse kind of encourages that. Like the impression I get at least in the books is that Seylse is half in love with Melisandre.

Who knows, maybe she's hoping for Melisandre or Stannis to invite her to a threessome

stillshimpy · January 14, 2016

Are most people assuming that Stannis is continually having sex with her? I just assumed it only happened to make a shadow-baby, and that he'd die if he did it again.

I wasn't until the Melisandre POV chapter in which she noted that her bed didn't see much use with Stannis gone. Although, I have to admit, her musings on things like having to remember to eat actually reminded me of The Magiican King Lev Grossman ...and I guess I should spoiler tag this, just in case giant The Magician King

like Julia forgetting to eat and to dress, not because she's dead, but because she's half god by the time she's in Fillory, so not dead, just animated by the divine.

I feel like a doofus spoiler-tagging that but it's from a related genre, so ....yeah. Plus, The Magicians is about to be a TV Series.

So for anyone who opted out of that trying to avoid spoilers for a mostly unrelated TV series and book series? A few things sprang to mind about why someone might not eat or sleep naturally and despite the background in this story, it wasn't the first thing that my mind went to in this story. In particular, she feels the pain from that Ruby when Mance/notMance is burning, very intensely. So whereas I did think there was something going on and that she might be reanimated, she was also fairly obviously still fully capable of feeling. Plus, her thought process was very attached to human impulses (thinking about Jon and his feelings about his sister and saving her).

Edited January 14, 2016 by stillshimpy

WindyNights · January 14, 2016

Melisandre also has potions that inspire lust. Now while that's not used on Show Stannis, it's ambiguous with the Stannis in the book but I really hope that's not the case.

Delta1212 · January 14, 2016

Thanks for spoilering that by the way, as I have The Magician King but have not read it yet.

WSmith84 · January 14, 2016

Mel is another character that lost all complexity in her transition to TV.

Edited January 14, 2016 by WSmith84

stillshimpy · January 14, 2016

You're welcome, Delta. The Magician King is about five times the book that The Magicians was, by the way, so I hope you do read it. It's a ton of fun.

Delta1212 · January 14, 2016

You're welcome, Delta. The Magician King is about five times the book that The Magicians was, by the way, so I hope you do read it. It's a ton of fun.

I enjoyed The Magicians but it wasn't anything I'd particularly rave about other than to say that I liked it if someone asked, which is why I picked up a copy of The Magician King and also why I haven't gotten around to starting it yet.

But with that recommendation, I'll grab my copy for the train this morning.

WSmith84 · January 14, 2016

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but someone at westeros.org dubbed show Melisandre 'Meli-sans-bra' due to her tendency of getting her norks out.

Edited January 14, 2016 by WSmith84

Haleth · January 14, 2016

Off topic but did you all see the news that Alan Rickman died? Very sad news.

Delta1212 · January 14, 2016

Off topic but did you all see the news that Alan Rickman died? Very sad news.

What?!

mac123x · January 14, 2016

I get the idea that Seylse kind of encourages that. Like the impression I get at least in the books is that Seylse is half in love with Melisandre.

Who knows, maybe she's hoping for Melisandre or Stannis to invite her to a threesome

Thank you for that mental image. I must now go gouge out my mind's eye. Heeeee

One thing I appreciated about Mel's chapter is that it confirmed for me that she is a true-believer and not a charlatan. I also enjoyed the irony of her being considered one of the best readers-of-the-flames, considering how inaccurate she is.

I'm curious what Shimpy (and everyone else) thinks of this passage:

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths

She thinks it means Eastwatch will be under attack, but even questions her own interpretation since the towers didn't look right. My opinion is that she's seeing the Ironborn's assault on the Reach, but I'm not sure why. I'm open to correction since it seems disconnected from everything else she sees.

Delta1212 · January 14, 2016

I feel like there is a lot of potential set up for something coming out of the sea, but I really don't know what. I mean, he's set up merlings as a potential thing, but I don't really think they're going to show up in the series.

Then again, I didn't believe the Children of the Forest we're going to make an appearance either, so what do I know?

Between the Drowned God and Patchface (both his ramblings and his "origin story"), I don't know. It feels like Cthullhu is living in the oceans around Westeros, but it also doesn't feel like there's been enough set up for something quite that big. Oh, and the Seastone Chair's odd backstory, too.

So I'm in a weird position where it really feels like there's some set up, but there's nothing that really specifically matches what has been set up, and for it to be something that has remained unspecified thus far makes it feel like there hadn't been enough set up for it not to come out of left field.

I don't know what's up with the water in this story, basically.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Delta1212

Maximum Taco · January 14, 2016

I feel like there is a lot of potential set up for something coming out of the sea, but I really don't know what. I mean, he's set up merlings as a potential thing, but I don't really think they're going to show up in the series.

Then again, I didn't believe the Children of the Forest we're going to make an appearance either, so what do I know?

Between the Drowned God and Patchface (both his ramblings and his "origin story"), I don't know. It feels like Cthullhu is living in the oceans around Westeros, but it also doesn't feel like there's been enough set up for something quite that big. Oh, and the Seastone Chair's odd backstory, too.

So I'm in a weird position where it really feels like there's some set up, but there's nothing that really specifically matches what has been set up, and for it to be something that has remained unspecified thus far makes it feel like there hadn't been enough set up for it not to come out of left field.

I don't know what's up with the water in this story, basically.

Could be a Sea Dragon?

We know they actually did exist historically at least because of the bones of Nagga where they held the Kingsmoot on Old Wyk.

There have been a lot of hints of dragons other than Dany's three, like the one that was possibly dormant in Winterfell's crypts.

I don't know if I buy these theories, but they'd be fun curveballs for GRRM to work in.

Terra Nova · January 14, 2016

In A World of Ice and Fire (nothing major being revealed, but better safe than sorry)

there is evidence of other black 'oily' stones around the globe, similar to the Seastone Chair. And the basement of the Tower of Oldtown itself was a pre-existent oily rock.

And then there's Sam last chapter in Feast:

Lord Leyton's locked atop his Tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Terra Nova

Andeleisha · January 14, 2016

I've seen a few posts on the theory of something coming out of the sea/primordial elemental gods, notably this one:

http://boiledleather.com/post/136688761948/the-world-of-ice-and-fire-thoughts-what-we-talk

I think it is safe for shimpy to click on because it is pretty much all speculation, although I do think some of it is based on information we learn about other nations in Planetos from TWOIAF.

I think they are cool theories, but I'm more interested in the character resolution than anything else in this story.

(OT: for those of you interested in the Magicians, you can stream the pilot for free on SyFy's website right now. It doesn't technically premiere on TV until Jan 25. And yeah, the first book is the weakest in the series, books 2 and 3 are much better mostly because of (mild)

Julia! Julia's POV is spectacular.

)

Lady S. · January 15, 2016

TRIVIA: Although actually Melisandre doesn't have red hair. She has strawberry-blonde hair.

Not according to Maester Cressen: "Her hair was not the orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper that shone in the light of the torches. .... Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red." or Jon Snow: "Ygritte had been kissed by fire; the red priestess was fire, and her hair was blood and flame." Flames can be orange or yellow, sure, but blood is dark red, and Cressen already said her hair was not orange.

As for Mel's private life, she's also mentioned as sharing Stan's pavilion to soothe him to sleep after Renly died, whatever that means, so there could have been some cuddling involved as well as sexual healing or R'hlloric weirdness. Stan later alibis her for Renly's murder to Davos by saying she was with him, and he alibied himself by saying he was asleep and dreaming of Renly's death, so at the very least she was in his pavilion when he had this nightmare and maybe she was already sharing his bed. I know the intimacy of their relationship on the show was one of the complaints about the handling of Team Dragonstone, but I actually there's some basis for that interpretation in the books, though whether D&D were actually aware of or cared about the textual basis is another matter entirely.

I also think it's notable that while book Mel does talk about king's blood, that's only in the context of sacrifice. There's no connection between king's blood and shadow babies, that was entirely a show invention. In fact, book Mel even suggests Davos could father a shadow baby for Stan when he confronts her about the one whose birth he witnessed, ".... Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though… a man whose flames still burn hot and high… if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make…” (I'd think even Mel would know there was a slim chance of Davos taking up her offer, but then she does believe a lot of obviously incorrect things.) So, in that context, without the king's blood/king's sperm connection, then book Mel bringing up shadows to Jon just has to do with his "life-fire" and not with any possibility of king's blood.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Lady S.

Delta1212 · January 15, 2016

For reference, this is what "burnished copper hair" looks like:

WindyNights · January 15, 2016

http://www.texaslightsmith.com/assets/images/finishes/Burnished_Copper.jpg

This is what I was thinking when I said strawberry blond. Burnished copper isn't actually red

Edited January 15, 2016 by WindyNights

WindyNights · January 15, 2016

Not according to Maester Cressen: "Her hair was not the orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper that shone in the light of the torches. .... Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red." or Jon Snow: "Ygritte had been kissed by fire; the red priestess was fire, and her hair was blood and flame." Flames can be orange or yellow, sure, but blood is dark red, and Cressen already said her hair was not orange.

As for Mel's private life, she's also mentioned as sharing Stan's pavilion to soothe him to sleep after Renly died, whatever that means, so there could have been some cuddling involved as well as sexual healing or R'hlloric weirdness. Stan later alibis her for Renly's murder to Davos by saying she was with him, and he alibied himself by saying he was asleep and dreaming of Renly's death, so at the very least she was in his pavilion when he had this nightmare and maybe she was already sharing his bed. I know the intimacy of their relationship on the show was one of the complaints about the handling of Team Dragonstone, but I actually there's some basis for that interpretation in the books, though whether D&D were actually aware of or cared about the textual basis is another matter entirely.

I also think it's notable that while book Mel does talk about king's blood, that's only in the context of sacrifice. There's no connection between king's blood and shadow babies, that was entirely a show invention. In fact, book Mel even suggests Davos could father a shadow baby for Stan when he confronts her about the one whose birth he witnessed, ".... Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though… a man whose flames still burn hot and high… if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make…” (I'd think even Mel would know there was a slim chance of Davos taking up her offer, but then she does believe a lot of obviously incorrect things.) So, in that context, without the king's blood/king's sperm connection, then book Mel bringing up shadows to Jon just has to do with his "life-fire" and not with any possibility of king's blood.

The intimacy of their relationship wasn't the problem. It was how needy and horny he got with her in full view of people and kept trying to bang her which she kept putting a stop to. It was so UnStannis-like.

Speaking of which, it's kinda sad that Stannis thinks Melisandre was trying to get him to make peace with Renly when it was really that she was trying to see what he looks like so she could assassinate him.

Edited January 15, 2016 by WindyNights

stillshimpy · January 15, 2016

Okay, this will be a different experience, since my monitor is a TV screen at present. So across the room from me is the giant screen and it feels like I'm typing to you via a tunnel, or all Adele "Helllllllllooooo from the Other Side" , but regardless, here we go! I read a fair amount yesterday, the one thing that layovers are good for is catching up on your reading.

There have been a lot of hints of dragons other than Dany's three, like the one that was possibly dormant in Winterfell's crypts

Well and then the one that Tyrion sees wasn't Drogon, or if it was meant to be, Martin made a mistake. Tyrion sees "pale leathery wings" and Drogon is black while the other two dragons were stuck in a vault. So whereas it hasn't been outright stated, there's been a couple of hints that Dany might have launched more dragons into the world than she realized when she woke her three from the petrified eggs.

She thinks it means Eastwatch will be under attack, but even questions her own interpretation since the towers didn't look right. My opinion is that she's seeing the Ironborn's assault on the Reach, but I'm not sure why. I'm open to correction since it seems disconnected from everything else she sees.

Well and the chapter more or less states that Melisandre, while not a charlatan or a con artist, is unlikely to be interpreting things correctly. She takes what she sees and kind of forces them into what she knows vs. knowing what the visions depict. For instance, she's not seeing Arya or Sansa -- at least if she's seeing Sansa, she's way early on that memo -- but she assumes what she sees is Arya Stark, because Arya being married to Ramsay is known.

So I didn't recognize that description, but the very fact that she was aware that it didn't quite fit Eastwatch seems to guarantee it isn't Eastwatch.

Okay, so starting with Tyrion's chapter where Penny finally appears above decks and Moqorro says

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all."

So I guess the snarling is because of the whole Lion for house Lannister thing. Interesting...Old, true and bright vs. young, false and dark. Old, blood of old Valyria, maybe? So Dany, true, bright hair blah blah....seems to fit. Young, false and dark I guess would be young Griff, false, because...Faegon....dark....blackfyre? I guess we'll see how that one plays out. [/i]

The night is dark and full of terrors, save us from the scary things, and blah blah blah some more.

Sometimes I totally get why Tyrion is such a popular character despite his failings: he's a good voice for the audience sometimes, because yea, verily, yea on that and it genuinely made me chuckle.

Tyrion's relationship with Penny is an interesting one. He's sort of having to confront his issues of self-loathing and shame over being a dwarf by actually have to get to know another dwarf. Penny's initial grief is so human. Of course it isn't Tyrion's fault that her brother was killed, or any of the other dwarfs, but it's still easy to understand why she would feel that way. There was also a passage where Tyrion sort of passively contemplates suicide, but then thinks of his father waiting for him in hell. Interesting character note on that. It would not have occurred to me that Tyrion would be concerned with ever seeing his father again. Good note to add in a chapter where he's having to confront how his father influenced how he feels about people for whom he ought to have a sense of kinship, putting to rest the ghosts of his childhood and all that.

Great detail in that chapter is the Triarch Belicho whose triumphs ended abruptly when he was eaten by a giant. It's one of those neat, brief details that adds to the world. It becomes easy to believe that there's a world with a history, just offscreen. I also like that in the book Tyrion actually does wonder if Dany will simply kill him because of his family's history with hers. It's not something that series really went into that much.

I'm wondering if Gerion, Tywin Lannister's brother, might show up at some point in the story. Plus, more world building detail of Valyria being a fictional cousin of Pompeii.

So from Moqorro closing out that chapter "Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twised thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood. " Is that Euron?? The ten long arms being the kraken and the sea of blood ....basically everything the Ironborn have been up to? I really wasn't sure on that one.

Bran's chapter was a blast. So the children of the are in the ravens and the greenseers are in the weirwoods. The Ravens used to speak their messages, but now just carry them. Fun details, all. I like Bran's brief time travel and seeing his father, of course the one that freaked me out the most was the olds being the Weirwoods, because they're cutting down the godswoods and burning them. Put a new and truly gruesome spin on Melisandre and Stannis's little initiation at The Wall.

By the way, I'm assuming Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers actually knows about Bran's journeys in Hodor, but I'm looking forward to that being addressed. It's such a violation to Hodor and has been discussed as the thing you do not do as a skinchanger.

In Bran's time traveling via the Weirdwood greenseeing express he saw his father, he clearly saw Lyanna Stark too (since Arya is supposed to have looked so much like her) but I wasn't sure which brother's butt she was kicking. Or who the brown-haired, slender girls, kissing a knight as tall as Hodor (Duncan?) was. I don't know who the beared man was or the white-haired woman, but I know in Davos chapter he had noted the whole "I didn't know the Starks made blood sacrifices to their gods" when they were talking about the Greystarks, etc.

I don't want to have post that is too large to be accepted, so I'll break this up. Jon's chapter is up next in my notes.

Edited January 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

mac123x · January 15, 2016

Jojen paste theory time! Book 5 spoiler

Some speculate that a) Jojen was depressed b) he knows when he'll die c) he doesn't appear in this chapter and d) Bran initially "mistakes" the red substance in the weirwood paste for blood, therefore the CotF killed him and mixed him into the paste that Bran ate. I have zero opinion on the veracity of that theory, I just enjoy some of the more... creative interpretations fans come up with.

I did notice the parallel between the Bran's reaction to the weirwood paste and Dany's to Shade of the Evening wine back at the House of the Undying. Started off horrible then became wonderful by the bottom of the bowl/glass. I don't know if this is supposed to be drawing our attention to the similarities between the Old Gods and the Undying, or just GRRM inadvertently repeating himself.

In Bran's time traveling via the Weirdwood greenseeing express he saw his father, he clearly saw Lyanna Stark too (since Arya is supposed to have looked so much like her) but I wasn't sure which brother's butt she was kicking. Or who the brown-haired, slender girls, kissing a knight as tall as Hodor (Duncan?) was. I don't know who the beared man was or the white-haired woman, but I know in Davos chapter he had noted the whole "I didn't know the Starks made blood sacrifices to their gods" when they were talking about the Greystarks, etc.

Since the boy Lyanna was playing with was younger than her, you can infer that it was Benjen. Brown-haired slender girl kissing the tall knight is speculated to be Old Nan kissing Ser Duncan the Tall, possibly abackdoor pilot to a future D&E novella.

Since Bran's flashbacks seem to be going earlier and earlier with each scene shift (the trees are regressing around him), I don't know that we were supposed to recognize any of them. I was pretty curious about the pregnant woman who wanted revenge, but I doubt it's actually relevant.

[small voice] I don't like Penny. Moqorro, OTOH, is one of my favorite minor characters introduced in this book.

Well and then the one that Tyrion sees wasn't Drogon, or if it was meant to be, Martin made a mistake. Tyrion sees "pale leathery wings" and Drogon is black while the other two dragons were stuck in a vault.

You're referring to the thing that Tyrion sees through the mists in the Sorrows? I always thought it was just a sickly bat.

ETA -- spoiler tagged that first bit because

Jojen's lack of appearance in the rest of the book is implied by that theory

Edited January 15, 2016 by mac123x

Delta1212 · January 15, 2016

And part of the reason that it's speculated to be Old Nan is that there is further speculation that Hodor may be one of Duncan's descendants.

Trisan · January 15, 2016

Sometimes I totally get why Tyrion is such a popular character despite his failings: he's a good voice for the audience sometimes, because yea, verily, yea on that and it genuinely made me chuckle.

Haha, for me the best on that matter was Pyp's "The night is dark and full of turnips" ! ^^

Triskan here by the way, but I seem to have lost (again) my password (but found back my older account one) ! x)

EDIT : Oh, and regarding the Jojen paste theory... of all the far-fetched theories, that one is actually the one I'm buying the most.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Arkash

stillshimpy · January 15, 2016

So roughly knowing how Jon's current character trajectory is going to end (spoiler; not well) his chapters are kind of difficult to get through, watching him do all of these things that will lead -- understandably lead, by the way, which is the distressing part -- to Jon being branded as a traitor by the men of the Night's Watch. Every time he sends away one of his allies, like Dolorous Ed, I feel a slight lurch in my stomach. Although, it's nice to know that part of what contributes to what happens is that Jon has sent all the men he's closest to and who would presumably never go along with a plan to murder him, to other posts.

But taking Wildlings out to the godswood to become Brothers of the Night's Watch, making Leathers the Master of Arms (oooohhh....Jon....), letting Val go to try and fetch Tormund. Jon's greatest failing as a commander is that he can't seem to recall how he viewed Wildlings before he was amongst them. He's lost perspective on how that will look and feel to the men of the Watch and whereas Jon's actions are for the good of all and are smart strategically, they show his emotional immaturity.

Jon knows that mutiny isn't completely unheard of in the Night's Watch. He's knows how Lord Mormont died too. He's accepting letters from Stannis and seemingly is aiding him. He also appears to be sending his friends to safety and people like Thorne out into the wild. It's like he's plotting his own demise.

One of the ways that he actually shows how far behind being up-to-speed he is? When he thinks of Arya and thinks she's quick and clever, but in the end, she's just a little girl. Uh....wow....yeah, Arya has practically been gifted with some dour quasi-fairy godfather (if you like them really crass, blunt and violent) ...but she's also been frequently in charge of saving her own skin, and had.

I know the chapter ends with Jon contemplating his doubts and thinking about having Command of the Wall, but it's one area where watching the show has given me a preview into hindsight, because I don't think I've ever wanted a character to have more doubts and reconsider their actions as ill-advised more frequently than I am with Jon at present.

Daenary's chapter is this long, involved thing that suggests Targaryen's are not quite human: being immune to illness and all that. She's out wading around in Dysentery and then all that stuff with the preparations for her wedding with Hizzy was actually pretty amusing. Being examined by his mother and sister and having her fertility verified (but yo, there's cake! Magical cake after being vetted like a horse!) and then "his favorite meal, dog in honey stuffed with prunes and peppers."

So anyone want to guess at what point Hizdhar zo Loraq joined my "oh you can just go ahead and die, motherfucker" list? I think book Hizzy might just be freaking evil. There are clues.

Daario calling Barristan "Ser Grandfather" is also amusing me and the Second Sons have defected to Yunkai. So much for Brown Ben's affection for Dany, although that defection doesn't necessarily mean he never cared, just that ...people try to choose the winning side, when those they care about seem unfit. Whereas I'm at least a little glad that Dany gave up the fool's errand of always trying to figure out who the three betrayals are and what constitutes them, I'm fairly certain getting it one with Daario is not one of her better plans for dealing with her various situations. Although I'll be happy as can be if he kills the Puppy Muncher.

Theon-as-Reek at Winterfell. Okay, so that was a really good chapter, despite having Lady Dustin exposition fairy up a storm and explain Roose's character to the audience at home (which was....unnecessary, to say the least) there were some fun details in there and Theon trying to play a part and do what was expected of him made it less awkward than that kind of exposition duty usually is. Parts of that chapter are well written, but this whole Reek storyline really illustrates one of Martin's flaws as a writer. He doesn't trust the impact of sadness and despair. He sells the audience short by abandoning restraint in order to try and buy the reaction he's shooting for by stooping to excess.

So I'm reading the whole chapter and thinking, "Wow, I get it now. I see why people found this powerful. It's heartbreaking and Martin's doing such a good job showing the duality with Theon and the shell of a man he is within Reek. Well done, way to bring it home for the w.....why don't you ever know when to stop when you're winning, George R. R. Martin." Great chapter. Wonderfully layered all the way up until that stupid shit at the end with Jeyne Poole. Quit cranking it up so high on the horror meter. He had me right up until the end when he, as per usual, could not resist going over-the-top with it.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't the terrible fate and marital rape that was upsetting, it's that -- once again -- Martin can't quit while he's ahead with this stuff. He doesn't trust any kind of restraint. He had to make sure Theon was a participant and a victim and it was in a kind of ludicrous manner. There's room for subtlety and you know what he can't seem to follow? The rules of well structured horror. Something suggested is more horrifying than something detailed, particularly when it is something that horrifying. All that work just to show his glass writing jaw at the very end there.

So it's a really good chapter up until the last couple of pages. It would have so much more powerful to leave everyone wondering what horrific thing Ramsay was going to do to a terrified young girl...and more importantly for Theon's characterization, to leave him wondering in what ways he'd failed at Winterfell life once again. Instead of planting the seed and leaving everyone to try and cope with "Oh no....what the hell is going to happen???" He has to grab his writing megaphone and blare it to the back rows. "THIS...this will happen!" and he just seems to forget that someone horrifying can turn into something almost satiric (unless he's aiming for satire, but I don't get the sense he is) when taken too far. Mostly though, that chapter was 99.9 percent "wow, powerful" and just that one scene too many. If he could have brought himself to stop before making Theon orally rape Jeyne Poole, it would have been a wholly successful chapter, I think.

In Hotah's most recent chapter, hey you know what's been nice to find out? That Ellaria Sand is actually a good, measured character instead of the sneering evil cartoon of the Wreck of Dorne's plot and that she was wildly against things like murdering Myrcella and Tommen. That makes more sense in a land where people have been het up over the murder of innocent children for well over a decade. They're horror over Cersei -- the Nitwit's -- plan to kill Trystane. Cersei's inability to stop with the shit is a source of amusement in the story.

I just love the entire Dorne plot, personally. I like the actual game part of the Game of Thrones and find Doran to be a gifted player. Of course, he displays a ton of restraint, so....obviously the dude will be my hero ;-)

I did like the "Blame Darkstar, and send Swan off to hunt him down" plan. The Sand Snakes being deployed to King's Landing has a lot of fun potential.

I think I already referenced a couple of things that went on in the next Jon chapter and I will be back later to talk about the next one and one of my favorite inclusions: the vegetarian giant. Nice story juxtaposition with the Triarch whose success came to an abrupt end when he was eaten by a giant. Also, now with the Children of the Forest also being in the Ravens, every time one says something I'm wigged out.