Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I've hung out with Coldhands for a bit now and since the whole "Stark kids are Wargs" thing seems to be genetic, I'm going to assume that Coldhands is whatever remains of Benjen Stark -- who was likely a warg also -- although if that's the case, they practically had a bushel of wargs going in that chapter, between Varamyr, Bran and Cold Hand Ben.  

 

So I see what the series did:  They used Meera's distrust of Coldhands as inspiration for the baffling way she treats Osha in the TV Show.  They just transferred that story snippet over to Osha.  As you know, that didn't actually work out well for me, since Jojen was all "I see through time" and Osha was the only reason (in the TV series) that Bran, Rickon and Hodor lived.  Not the swiftest move on the part of the showrunners, I wonder why they felt it was important to include Meera's distrust of a traveling companion?  

 

It's just...it makes sense for Meera to distrust the clearly-dead-guy leading them on what must feel like a Zombie Boondoggle. It never made any sense for her to be weird to Osha. 

 

I've been trying to figure out what Brothers of the Night's Watch were out there to get killed by Cold Hand Ben.  I'm drawing a blank.  

 

So they are off to see the last greenseer, who I take it will be King Root dude.  It's so strange that they just ditched this aspect of the story in the TV Series.  

[bobbybuilderton]

It's a thing they like to do. Grab a plot and dump it somewhere else or grab a character and dump them in another plot cough

sansa

cough then pretend it doesn't change anything and works just as well.

[Terra Nova]

(Mya, please edit this message if you want the topic to be completely dropped)

 

@DevF:

 

yes, I apologize, I didn't specify which uproar I was talking about: I meant the (season 5)

Sansa's rape, with some loud grumbling on the internet and some website deciding to completely stop covering the show

. The 'Inside the Episode' are shot during the post-production and edited shortly before the proper episode airs (since we know of last-minute changes with scenes being shifted around, plus the CGI forcing a very tight schedule as shown by Season 4 finale). So what I actually meant was that, while the first 'problematic' scene was clearly not in the books, the second time some defense of it was possible, at the expense of spoilering.

 

Clearly, I'm not saying they surely planned it consciously, but Benioff said it loud, didn't catch himself or rephrase it, the interview was later revisited and adapted, the 'Inside the Episode' was edited, music added and so on, and no one did  a thing about that. It's sloppy, if not malicious, and I suspect in part because the violent backlash to Episode 6 caught them really by surprise, especially after the critics of the first four episodes hailing them as a fix to all that was wrong in Feast and Dance.

 

But again, I don't know, my opinion on the subject is still too liquid and, by now, I just stopped caring.  

[nksarmi]

I cannot for the life of me remember everything about the Coldhands plot, but I was left with the impression that the "brothers" that he killed were part of the mutineers who killed Lord Mormont (ie not really good guys at all).  I could be totally wrong about that though.

[stillshimpy]

Aha!! That would make sense.  I couldn't figure out who in the world could be out there.  They couldn't be Brothers who died at The Fist (so...wow, weird imagery, this show makes for the weirdest sentences) because they'd be dead men and they died bleeding.  I couldn't think of any other group that was supposed to be wandering around out there and i couldn't identify anything about them.  Beards?  Yeah, that's like having legs in Westeros.  Pretty common.  Dressed in black?  Man the Sketch Artist's depiction of these guys will be less than illuminating because "faces torn to shreds and eyes gone" don't exactly make for "that's the man, officer, cuff 'im!" identifiers. 

[Dev F]

So I see what the series did:  They used Meera's distrust of Coldhands as inspiration for the baffling way she treats Osha in the TV Show.  They just transferred that story snippet over to Osha.  As you know, that didn't actually work out well for me, since Jojen was all "I see through time" and Osha was the only reason (in the TV series) that Bran, Rickon and Hodor lived.  Not the swiftest move on the part of the showrunners, I wonder why they felt it was important to include Meera's distrust of a traveling companion?

 

It was also, I think, an adaptation of the Reeds vs. Maester Luwin storyline of CoK -- Bran having to choose between a magical and a nonmagical destiny, as represented by the tension between his magical and nonmagical mentor figures. It just doesn't work that well after the fall of Winterfell at the end of season 2 validates his mystical inclinations and renders his mundane future so distant and theoretical. "You have a responsibility to be lord of this holdfast" vs. "You must reject everything you've been raised to believe and follow these weird, creepy childen" is a much more compelling conflict than "You need to follow these children who are clearly magical like you" vs. "But Osha is a-skeered of magic."

[Terra Nova]

Yes, in the appendix it's even mentioned a short list of mutineers at Craster, one of them being Ollo Lophand (the guy with the stump among the other corpses).

 

Varamyr's glorious reign over a regal pack of three (three) wolves didn't last that long and was thoroughly pissed upon ^^'

 

:) what a crowded wood anyway, wolves, dead mutineers, even a sow to be butchered and eaten!

 

I think the showrunners toyed with the idea of completely scrapping the Reeds, since in Season 2 they split quite effectively their role between Bran's dreams and Osha's cryptic comments about all the things people say on the other side of the Wall (talking about the Three Eyed Crow). While I'm happy of their introduction in Season 3 and I understand why they wouldn't cast two characters for basically staying around and doing nothig (I mean, I love them dearly in the books, but their subplot would be the perfect target for the axe in any adaptation), they should have just dropped the open mistrust and cattiness; as Shimpy knows, a lot of show watchers were dead set on suspecting the Reeds of being up to no good. Sadly, at that point the subplot DevF spoke about had been already made superfluous by circumstances.

 

I have a proposition for BookWalkers (so Shimpy, please forgive this tab)

let's try not to draw too much attention to 'King Root' if possible: Shimpy doesn't suspect a thing and blames the skin-changing magic on Coldhands, and I would like to read her surprise when she reaches the greenseer's description... although she may remember the 'a thousand eyes and one' line from the show any moment now :(

Edited December 20, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Mya Stone]

Yes, in the appendix it's even mentioned a short list of mutineers at Craster, one of the being Ollo Lophand (the guy with the stump among the other corpses).

Varamyr's glorious reign over a regal pack of three (three) wolves didn't last that long and was thoroughly pissed upon ^^'

:) what a crowded wood anyway, wolves, dead mutineers, even a sow to be butchered and eaten!

I have a proposition for BookWalkers (so Shimpy, please forgive this tab)

let's try not to draw too much attention to 'King Root' if possible: Shimpy doesn't suspect a thing and blames the skin-changing magic on Coldhands, I would like to read her surprise when she reaches the greensee's description... although she may remember the 'a thousand eyes and one' line from the show any moment now :(

Not for shimpy:

I can honestly say she has no recollection of that line from the show. She is totally in the dark and I am really excited for this reveal to happen. Especially since reading the Dunk and Egg tales are fresh in her mind.

[Terra Nova]

Not for Shimpy

Splendid! I read the novellas after Dance and while on a smaller scale I felt so elated when I realized it, especially when reading of how Brynden seemed to recognize Dunk and look 'deep into his soul'...

Edited December 20, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Holmbo]

I haven't be keeping up with this discussion but I was checking in now reading some of the latest posts so I'll add some to the discussion. I think Jaime is the only character in this series who's, so far, become a better person. Sure some characters, like Sam, Jon, Sansa learn and grow but I think he is the only one who's grown moraly. As a contrast there are soo many characters who have regressed and become worse people.

Also, jumping back to the topic of change in language, I'll point out the word nuncle which suddenly appears here. I thought it was a iron island thing at first but Jaime says it to. It's quite jarring.

[mac123x]

Also, jumping back to the topic of change in language, I'll point out the word nuncle which suddenly appears here. I thought it was a iron island thing at first but Jaime says it to. It's quite jarring.

 

Oh god, that's one that's like nails on a chalk board to me.  It's a contender for worst idiom, right up there with "words are wind" and "much and more". 

 

I thought it was just Asha, saying "my nuncle" instead of "mine uncle".  When it started cropping up in other characters I rolled mine eyes.  My neyes. 

[Terra Nova]

Brace yourselves: 'naunt' and 'neam' also exists, and there's plenty of relatives to be used for!

[stillshimpy]

Yes, Nuncle sounds like the cousin of barnacle.  Terrible word.  Hate it beyond reason. 

 

So I've had the Pentos geography lesson and Illyrio has revealed that the statue is of him.  I'm assuming that is made up, although I'm not sure why I do.  If he wasn't born rich, he had to have by more vigorous in his youth to have made that much money.  Still, he's so slippery, it's difficult to believe he's telling the truth on anything.  Although, terrifyingly I completely believed that Viserys tried to sneak into Dany's room the night before she was married off to Drogo.  

 

Nice Dunk and Egg tie-in with the Golden Company, but mostly that was a very detailed chapter that probably won't stick in my head much.  Season Five

at least Tyrion's being far more bearable than he was in the show as he made his way towards Dany.  I kept waiting for him to start whining that he had, had, had to get out of that wagon/litter .  I get why the show swapped in Varys for Illyrio though.

 I'll see how long that holds or whether it is still in the offing because season five

in the book Tyrion's got a motivation for insisting that they stop at brothels that has nothing to do with wallowing in self pity and drowning in drink:  There's still a chance Tysha isn't dead.  In the show they took that incentive away and Tyrion just looked like an insufferable baby-man

.  

 

I just started Quentyn's chapter.  

[Haleth]

I would have liked for Coldhands to be Benjen, but surely Bran would recognize his Uncle (Nuncle LOL) Ben, right? It hadn't been that long since Ben was at Winterfell.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Haleth

[jellyroll2]

Yeah while Benjen was (is?) a popular contender for Coldhands, many question it because wouldn't Bran recognize his uncle to some degree? His voice at least? Although I don't know how often he visited Winterfell for Bran to really know him so it's still a possibility.

[John Potts]

Doesn't Coldhands keep his face covered at all times? Makes sense if he has those piercing blue eyes of the Others.

 

And one reason why Osha would be suspicious of anyone Other-ish was that (in show, at least) her boyfriend was taken by them & tried to kill her. So anyone associating with them is guilty by association (though that doesn't really track with her being suspicious of them before meeting the undead).

 

stillshimpy Nuncle sounds like the cousin of barnacle.  Terrible word.  Hate it beyond reason.

 

 

I just hate the addition of that sort of cod Medieval dialogue. They're not taking in English anyway, but even if Westerosi was exactly like English, either write the whole damn thing in Middle English (what the Canterbury Tales are written in) or just accept the translation convention that what we read is an English translation of what they are actually saying.

[stillshimpy]

That's really what makes it so irksome, John Potts, it's an affectation worthy of a particularly odious Renaissance Festival handmade jewelry booth.  It's so contrived and it really is a case of go all the way, or don't.  Commit fully but don't fuck around like that, or you really are the guy at the Ren Faire, clambering out of his Honda Fit in leggings and lighting a Malboro Light while dropping "forsooth" and  "hey nonny nonny" while clutching a Bic.  You just automatically want to punch that guy on general principles.  

 

Coldhands does keep his face and nose covered.  

[WindyNights]

I think GRRM confirmed outside the book that Coldhands isn't Benjen. 

 

His editor asked him in writing if Coldhands is Benjen in the margin notes. She wrote that she has this theory that she thinks it's him and his written reply was a definitive "No."

[Mya Stone]

I think GRRM confirmed outside the book that Coldhands isn't Benjen.

His editor asked him in writing if Coldhands is Benjen in the margin notes. She wrote that she has this theory that she thinks it's him and his written reply was a definitive "No."

This is true, but as someone who has met and spent time with the man, I can safely say...he tends to bend the truth if he doesn't want to answer something. ;)

But really, who Coldhands is and where Benjen is is one of the most frustrating things for me. (Season 5)

It's why I got so, so. SO angry at the Benjen bait and switch leading to Jon's murder. It was complete and utter bullshit and it toyed with my emotions and not in a good way. I was SO EXCITED that maybe we would finally have an answer...and then, nope. Gah. I've forgiven the show for a lot but not for that.

[WindyNights]

Benjen is Euron and  at the Iron Islands, remember?

[John Potts]

I thought Euron was Daario Naharis? Unless he's both, of course!

[stillshimpy]

See this is something I find at least a little amusing about quoting what an author has said as gospel truth.  Same thing goes with showrunners.   

 

When someone creates a story, particularly a story where he wants you to guess things, why does anyone think "Oh, he wouldn't lie!" Basically if there are a lot of mysteries in a story and it is designed to have them then a) the storyteller is in the business of hiding the truth as it is b) if it's supposed to be mysterious then the storyteller has just morphed into your parent, when you were nine, at Christmas time while you're shaking a box and saying "Is it an Xbox One?"  Even if it is four XBox Ones and a prototype for the XBox Two, your parent is going to say , "Nope. Nuh.  Put it down. It's socks.  You don't want to damage your socks by shaking them.  c) If you think that an author isn't willing to lie, please remember, they make up stuff for a living.  Fiction is a form of lying.  d) no author worth even half a damn gives away his game plan for a long running series.  

 

Trust the stuff that gets said after a story is done, before then?  Expect the definitive to be more malleable and also? Stop shaking your socks. 

 

The number of times JJ Abrams said, Star Trek: Into Darkness was not going to be Wrath of Kahn: The retelling is proof of that particular point.

 

ETA: Also?  The editor is his accomplice in all of this, so ...again...he or she is going to be doing a lot of "Yeah, those are socks.  Put it down."   

Edited December 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

So anyway, even though I think it's a given that an author would lie to protect his personal game plan, there's a couple of other things with "So that's Benjen, right?"  I'm assuming that's actually the Wight who killed Benjen.  If Benjen was a Warg and the whole book starts out detailing Varamyr looking for a person to take over before his body can fully die: Then I'm guessing the reason that's a Wight with self-control is that...it's not a Wight.  It's the person wearing the Wight.  

 

I could, of course be wrong, but that's also how Martin could be both lying and telling the truth at the same time. 

 

And let's see, I've read Quentyn's chapter, which was fun although, ugh, Volantis sounds like a freaking treat.  I can't figure out what was supposed to be in that guy's ship (The Adventure) that smelled so bad, Sailing Zombonis?  I like that his personality is so much closer to Doran's than Arianne's or any of the other people of Dorne.  

 

I read the "Jon kills Janos Slynt, just wish he'd offed Thorne at the same time" chapter too. 

[Ashara Payne]

If you've seen/read many interviews with George (and there are plenty), he does tend to just be evasive about mysteries; or he'll either refuse to answer or say 'keep reading'. There are some questions he'll answer outright, such as the pronunciation of names etc. but things things that are meant to keep you guessing he won't answer.

I think because of this most fans trust him not to lie. Doesn't mean he can't/won't change his mind, though.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Ashara Payne

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy, did you appreciate Jon's version of the goodbye with Sam?

I definitely did. Especially the callback to his farewell to Robb. I knew why he was smiling sadly in Sam's version, but I appreciated his inner monologue here.

[Autarch]

About coldhands, Martin has also said that Stoneheart is not Catelyn, an important note in my opinion, which Shimpy hints at below, though I'm going to go with a slightly different bent here.

 

First of all, although a lot of wights are made since Game, by process of elimination/important characters I think he's a dead ringer for Benjen. The two guys he left with end up back at the Wall as wights, and when wights are made it's usually en masse. Of course Benjen's not with them, leaving to wonder where his wighted self ended up; and when Coldhands first showed up, I think for a lot of people it was pretty much case closed.

 

So anyway, even though I think it's a given that an author would lie to protect his personal game plan, there's a couple of other things with "So that's Benjen, right?"  I'm assuming that's actually the Wight who killed Benjen.  If Benjen was a Warg and the whole book starts out detailing Varamyr looking for a person to take over before his body can fully die: Then I'm guessing the reason that's a Wight with self-control is that...it's not a Wight.  It's the person wearing the Wight.  

 

I could, of course be wrong, but that's also how Martin could be both lying and telling the truth at the same time. 

 

Rather I think someone has warged Benjen's corpse. When the Others make wights, they seem to do so by possessing them in some puppet like way, hinted at by the blue eyes and how they move. The wights also seem to remember some things, like how two who tried to kill Mormont knew where to find him, so I'm guessing some aspects of the original owners mind are intact in some way.

 

So it's a person wearing the wight, but a person wearing Benjen Stark.

 

Not for Shimpy:

Remember Bran and his lesson's with the Ravens? He still senses the other, other greenseers, are still alive in them in some way. My guess is that Coldhands is Bloodraven's puppet, and it was probably the same for Beric as well (compare Arya's first sight of Beric with Bran's of Bloodraven).

 

[stillshimpy]

So it's a person wearing the wight, but a person wearing Benjen Stark.

 

Ooooh, interesting!  I wonder if it could have to do with Greenseeing?  Except there is one thing:  When Coldhands helped Sam, he called him Brother.  So that suggests a Brother of the Night's Watch.  

 

ETA: Mya I tried to figure out if that dialogue was the same or not and it seemed to be primarily the same.  I mostly thought it was sad that Sam couldn't understand what Jon was doing.  It makes sense, he's been abused in his life, his father clearly looms large.  But Sam's chapters in the last book were just an unrelenting slog and the one where Sam is sent to Oldtown is just Sam turned up to full blast in both Sam and Jon's memories.  Sam can be a difficult character for me.  He's someone I want to have compassion for, I do have compassion for and still, every now and then I have to sit down and will myself to remember all of the things that justify him being so difficult to take.  

 

It's an interesting depiction of someone who has been badly damaged and abused, because Martin doesn't really flinch away from what a pain in the backside he can be.  I felt more for Jon in that than I did Sam, but that may have everything to do with the fact that I have not met the Ogre that is Papa Tarly yet.  After that?  I might be more inclined to understand his crippling, deafening fear.  

Edited December 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Spoiler alert: He calls Sam "brother" because Coldhands is secretly Dickon.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I don't remember if this was discussed during the reading of AGOT, but I'll post this quote from the final Sansa chapter in that book:

"Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king announced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head."

Hehe, nice bit of foreshadowing by George.

[jellyroll2]

Actually you have met his dad, shimpy. Brienne meets his lovely persona in Feast.

[WindyNights]

 

Hehe, nice bit of foreshadowing by George.

Accidental foreshadowing actually. He previewed this chapter to an audience before the book came out and in the original chapter he had Jon hang Slynt but the audience wondered if it wouldn't be better if Jon beheaded since he was a Stark and GRRM was like "huh, good idea" and wrote it down in his notes and it ended up that way.

Edited December 21, 2015 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

I think we all had a secret smile when, after reading about the baby swapping, someone here suggested Shimpy should have re-read the Sam-Jon farewell chapter with that in mind, and she said: "nu-uh, once is more than enough, thank you" :D

I was rewatching the Slynt execution last night (a very good scene), with the chapter fresh in mind, and I was really surprised by how many of the lines came straight from the book... except for the 'Olly, bring me my sword!', which was really ill-received by book fans, who were already starting to barely suffer Olly and his nods of approval being shoved left, center and right XD 

 

Martin is evasive when he feels he has to, but knowing him a little you can recognize the way he says 'you're right' in between the lines. Someone at a convention asked him what was the last word Brienne shouted while being hanged and he said: "what do you think?" Some other fan in the back started to scream

Sword! Sword!

and he basically confirmed it.

Or, I don't remember the theory in particular he was asked about, and he answered: "How clever of you!" (which I think is a 'you're right')

Or some interviewer asking him about the consequences of a character's death and his answer being: "oh, so you think XXX is dead?"

I don't remember a single instance until now when he outright lied. Sure, he twists his words and he's pretty good at it, but by now we know his modus operandi

 

ETA:

Windy: and with the gruesome detail of the rope being too long and Slynt's head being cut off by the backlash... still a beheading though ^^

In fairness though, the 'preview' was fifteen years ago, and Martin is known to tweak and polish until the last possible moments.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Delta1212]

And in many cases, even a few years past that point :P

[Eegah]

My own take on this is one that I'm surprised doesn't come up that often: if he is Benjen, why would Martin even try to make a mystery of it when that's by far the most obvious solution? Remember when The Walking Dead suddenly decided to make a mystery out of Daryl's pre-rising life only to reveal it was exactly what everyone had assumed beforehand? This would be the same thing. Compare this to the Sandor as gravedigger theory, which actually is subtle enough that I could buy it being meant as a surprise before the online think tanks got to it.

[stillshimpy]

See, the other part of the "that's clever of you" is that's a really nice way to say "while you are wrong, I am acknowledging your intellectual process and that was intellectually rigorous" .  It's a kindly evasive move because it's not like he can ever say "You're dead wrong" without making someone feel snubbed.  

 

Again, that leaves room in both directions.  "Hey, that's smart!" is not interchangeable with "Hey, you're right, smart of you to figure it out!" but I also appreciate that there has to be times when Martin is telling the truth, because in a long running series, for an author that has a lot of interaction with his reading base, frankly the man can't afford to be too cutesy with his fanbase.  So there are going to also be times where it is a confirmation.  I can tell you whyI recognized that tool though:  It's a parenting tool.   I used to use it with my son.  Hell, if the occasion were to arise, I'd use it again.  It's one way to correct your kid without shutting them down or making them feel like being incorrect is bad.  So it usually runs, "Wow.  That was smart of you.  You really thought that one through.  In this case though..."  

 

It's such a hard call though.  There are fan relations to preserve so the man has to be a little bit careful.  Then again, having planned to have a seven book series, he has an awful lot of reasons to lie, to throw down red herrings, to mislead.   

 

I don't know and only time is really going to tell.  Mostly though my reaction to "The author said this" is only something I tend pay any attention to when it refers to things in the past.  A past action by a character.  Why did so and so do this and this.  That sort of thing.  For "answer this question that is still open ended in the series and here's my guess on it" there are just too many reasons for the author to prevaricate. 

 

I really do appreciate everyone sharing those tidbits though, so thank you for that.  It adds to the experience for me, even if I'm hesitant to accept them at face value at times, it certainly gives me more to mull over and I appreciate people taking the time.  Thank you.  Particularly the stuff for what I would assume is about The Hound Why do you think the Hound is dead? being the question I'd guess, but it's a long held rule of scifi and fantasy: never trust an offscreen/off page death...particularly an implied one.  

 

ETA: On the "it's by far the most obvious answer" that's actually the only part of all of this that makes me think: Maybe it isn't Benjen. 

 

 

 

Actually you have met his dad, shimpy. Brienne meets his lovely persona in Feast.

 

Oh that's right. Eek.  Yeah, he actually didn't make a giant "what a monster!" impression on me :-/   Clearly.   

 

There is something that I truly appreciate about Martin's writing, even if it can make characters a little tedious from time-to-time:  He isn't afraid of their flaws.  He doesn't have a need to have people like his characters.  If anything on some of these characters he almost seems to be laying down a challenge of some sort.  Can you like a character even given X, Y, and Z.   

 

Sam can be like that, but he has these balancing traits.   The sad thing about that chapter was that Jon is right throughout.  He has to stop being Sam's friend first and foremost in their interactions.  I actually felt sorrier for Jon than I did Sam.  Again, because the looming monster of his father is something that I can only imagine at this point.  So there's a part of me that just wants to yell, "Buck up, for goodness sakes.  You have a sword for starters.  Tell him to go fuck himself sideways and inside out."  existing in that same moment though is the knowledge that I am enacting actual victim-blaming in that attitude.  So I try  to course correct my brain. 

 

But again, I felt sorrier for Jon, who has so few people in the world.  Who believes he has lost the majority of the people he loves to death and who is actually being as kind as he can be to Sam.  That always should have been the answer for Sam.   I actually felt a bit "Oh, how conveniently retconny" about the "No Tarly will ever wear a chain" for the obvious solution of "Why didn't Tarly just send Sam off to do what he would have been good at?  Being a Maester"...and Martin decided to swing for the fences on the answer for that.  

 

I guess all I'm saying is that I think he got a little over-indulgent with his "Sam was abused!" details because whereas we've learned before that Sam's father is an ass , there was a suggestion that his mother and sisters loved him and protected him.  So the whole "He locked me up in chains" just felt like the bridge too far for believability.  There's room for nuance, basically.  Martin decided "fuck that room, Tarly and Bolton are trading parenting tips. Whee!"  Too many pure monsters clutter the Landscape. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Holmbo]

Brace yourselves: 'naunt' and 'neam' also exists, and there's plenty of relatives to be used for!

What is neam supposed to be?!

[Terra Nova]

The Wiktionary says it's 'mine eam', with eam being an Old English or Scottish word for '(maternal) uncle'. But if you think we are safe from a neam invasion, beware! I already suspect 'Cailin' comes from the Irish, so even more archaic words are fair games!

 

ETA: we knew from the first book though that Sam was paraded dressed as a girl in the courtyard in the hope of manning him up (!) and immersed in a tub full of blood, so I guess the only real protection his mother could give Sam was try to keep him out of sight of Randyll as much as possible.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Martin is also addicted to the word "wroth"  which is middle English and actually is changing the old English (and more commonly used today) "wrath".  So on that one he's being quite contorted.  He's rejecting a commonly used word with very old origins, in favor of a word that came into and out of usage in favor of the older term.  

 

Pretzel-shaped language usage on that one. 

 

Then he will use a term like "Let's do this!" very shortly thereafter and it sticks out like an elbow.  

Edited December 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[jellyroll2]

I'm surprised Tarly didn't stick out more to you, shimpy. He had a woman's lady parts washed out with lye. This is not a man who should be raising children.

[Delta1212]

Martin is also addicted to the word "wroth" which is middle English and actually is changing the old English (and more commonly used today) "wrath". So on that one he's being quite contorted. He's rejecting a commonly used word with very old origins, in favor of a word that came into and out of usage in favor of the older term.

Pretzel-shaped language usage on that one.

Then he will use a term like "Let's do this!" very shortly thereafter and it sticks out like an elbow.

The problem I have with his use of 'wroth' is the fact that he uses it as both an adjective and a noun. As an adjective meaning 'angry' it's archaic but acceptable.

As a noun meaning 'anger' yeah, he should be using wrath.

[nksarmi]

So anyway, even though I think it's a given that an author would lie to protect his personal game plan, there's a couple of other things with "So that's Benjen, right?"  I'm assuming that's actually the Wight who killed Benjen.  If Benjen was a Warg and the whole book starts out detailing Varamyr looking for a person to take over before his body can fully die: Then I'm guessing the reason that's a Wight with self-control is that...it's not a Wight.  It's the person wearing the Wight.  

 

I could, of course be wrong, but that's also how Martin could be both lying and telling the truth at the same time. 

 

And let's see, I've read Quentyn's chapter, which was fun although, ugh, Volantis sounds like a freaking treat.  I can't figure out what was supposed to be in that guy's ship (The Adventure) that smelled so bad, Sailing Zombonis?  I like that his personality is so much closer to Doran's than Arianne's or any of the other people of Dorne.  

 

I read the "Jon kills Janos Slynt, just wish he'd offed Thorne at the same time" chapter too. 

 

Love your theory!  The mystery of Cold Hands and Benjen is driving me nuts as well so I love your take on it.

[mac123x]

One more on the "goes through my head like a nail" list:  leal. 

 

"What does 'leal" mean?"

Siri:  "It means loyal"

"Why doesn't he just use 'loyal' then?"

Siri:  "I don't know.  It's GRRM.  Just accept that he does this crap and move on."

[Haleth]

To be sure Tarly is not going to win Father of the Year, even by Westerosi standards. He did bring order and discipline to the soldiers under his command. Was it Maidenpool where he was headquartered? Probably the safest place on the continent.

[WindyNights]

I like the words leal and wroth. I could do without nuncle though.

Edited December 21, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

It does grate a bit. I wish he'd go back to just using 'uncle' 'iece' and 'ephew'

Edited December 21, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

Plus anyone has go-to wording and phrasing. I think the only reason it's standing out to me is that I've been reading the books back-to-back.  

 

That's a lot of Nuncles.  I could do with little and less.  It makes me wroth and tests my leal.  Much and more I have endured.  Talk of dugs and teats that are not on cows.  Sooner or later I will run mad and sit in in a corner, slavering, staring wildly and contemplating kinslaying, as I am my nearest relative.  

[Terra Nova]

Perfect, Shimpy! Or near enough to make no matter ;)

[Delta1212]

Plus anyone has go-to wording and phrasing. I think the only reason it's standing out to me is that I've been reading the books back-to-back.

That's a lot of Nuncles. I could do with little and less. It makes me wroth and tests my leal. Much and more I have endured. Talk of dugs and teats that are not on cows. Sooner or later I will run mad and sit in in a corner, slavering, staring wildly and contemplating kinslaying, as I am my nearest relative.

You talk a good game, but words are wind.

[stillshimpy]

Or near enough to make no matter

 

Yeah, I know, but he doesn't actually use "few and fewer" ;) 

[John Potts]

Terra Nova I already suspect 'Cailin' comes from the Irish, so even more archaic words are fair games!

 

 

I have no problem when it comes to place names - they don't change much and frequently have archaic roots. Take for example, New York - it's named after the city of York in England (well, technically after James Duke of York, later James II), which is in turn comes from the Viking "Jorvik" - but how many New Yorkers today would know much of that? But while the derivation of the name of the city isn't hard to see, but a modern day New Yorker into 9th Century Jorvik and they wouldn't have a clue what anyone was talking about (unless they were a Viking scholar).

 

stillshimpy See, the other part of the "that's clever of you" is that's a really nice way to say "while you are wrong, I am acknowledging your intellectual process and that was intellectually rigorous"

 

 

Yeah, I tend to notice that (well I think I do but maybe I miss that sort of misdirection nine times out of ten)! I particularly remember a scene in Doctor Who where his companion asks, "The Master isn't your evil brother or something?" and he replies, "You've been reading too much fiction." Somebody stated (I think on this site) that them being brothers had been denied and I pointed out that it had been explicitly evaded (presumably if some future showrunner wants to pull out that revelation).