Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Delta1212]

Walder Frey is a good choice for Greed. I also considered picking Theon or Balon or really just the entirety of the Iron Islands.

[bobbybuilderton]

I'm not a huge daenerys fan because I think she's dull and uninteresting, but the show kind of gutted her story from book 5 imo.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I'm not a huge daenerys fan because I think she's dull and uninteresting, but the show kind of gutted her story from book 5 imo.

 

Is there a character that didn't have their book 4 or 5 story gutted?

Maybe Jon? He is one of the few characters in the show who has actually improved the last couple of seasons. IMO.

Edited December 18, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[WSmith84]

I find it slightly amusing that Dany decrees that the woman who fled her home no longer has any claim to it, because she fled it. I have a feeling that that ruling won't apply to Dany herself and Westeros.

[Terra Nova]

The woman even fled with his brother, lol! But I liked even more the rest:

- two rapists and murderers strive in her retinue because she pardoned all crimes during the sack --> Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch

- she doesn't want to punish slaves who rebel against their masters --> burns Mirri Maz Duur

- and anyway she can't punish all the rapists on her side! --> Jaime does

Stannis also

- if you own the slave then it's not rape --> Tywin's treatment of Tysha and Gregor's of the innkeeper's daughter (I paid, it's not rape)

and some Tyrion apologists for the girl in Selhorys

- wah, the bench is unconfortable! --> the Iron Throne is painful to sit upon, to remember the duties of ruling

Her decision that "at the time slavery was legal" really undermines all her ethical basis for her sack of Astapor and the crucifixion of the random masters in Meereen, since this way the boys and Unsullied were their property to do as they pleased.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Terra Nova

[DigitalCount]

Is there a character that didn't have their book 4 or 5 story gutted?

Maybe Jon? He is one of the few characters in the show who has actually improved the last couple of seasons. IMO.

Season 5, also not for Shimpy

I'd have liked Jon's well enough if they hadn't removed the Pink Letter. Everything was spot on and then they removed the actual catalyst for his stabbing. Not a single person in the audience would have looked down on him for Snowbowl, not a one, especially since it's Real!Sansa rather than Fake!Arya. If they did it because they didn't want him to make a morally "compromised" decision they made a huge mistake.

[WindyNights]

In the show, the

Pink Letter isn't earned and doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be a culmination of Jon's constant oath-breaking and favoritism for Stannis. In the show, Jon did nothing wrong.

[Terra Nova]

But in the show, by removing that,

(Book 5 spoiler)

you have Alliser letting the wildlings pass through while already plotting Jon's demise. How dumb is that? Just let them freeze to death on the other side of the Wall with Jon! Also, removing the oath-breaking pins all the stabbers' motivations on the wildling-gate... but this is after a bunch of Watchers saw the freaking Nightking at Hardhome, therefore completely validating Jon's claims that the wildlings are necessary to beat the very real White Walkers

 

I would say Arya's arc was the... least bad?

Edited December 18, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ElizaD]

The woman even fled with his brother, lol! But I liked even more the rest:

 

Before ADWD was released I heard that there was supposed to be a Cersei/Dany parallel that was lost when the book was split and their actions as rulers couldn't be compared in quite the same way. I used to think it was just that Cersei was crazy in AFFC and Dany was going to be better in ADWD, but when I actually read the book I ended up seriously disliking Dany for decisions like the ones you list. Cersei does horrible things because she's a horrible person and an idiot, but Cersei being worse doesn't make Dany look good or competent. The hypocrisy, blindness and love of her own comfort while making questionable moves to appease the local population made me lose faith in her ability to grow as a ruler and deal with the political reality of Westeros rather than the fantasy where she burns her enemies and accepts Viserys' word as gospel even though she herself betrayed her brother-king when she accepted that there were limits to his rights and he had to die.

 

On the show I'd say Jon's arc was the best because it had a genuine high in

Hardhome

. Of course there was some plot wonkiness when the Night's Watch end up looking like idiots for

not bothering to ask questions about what happened and not realizing that the Night's King is a bigger threat than the wildlings

, but the high was so good, especially compared to the rest of the arcs (which had their own share of the sins of dullness and poor plotting/characterization), that for me Jon wins the season despite the final wobble.

[Terra Nova]

The parallels should have been between Cersei and Dany as Queens and Jon as Lord Commander, for some overarching musing on power, ruling, compromise, and so on. Dany and Jon are still there though, and the show made sure to underline some parallels (Janos Slynt / the former slave).

 

she herself betrayed her brother-king when she accepted that there were limits to his rights and he had to die.

 

A Game of Thrones, Daenerys IV:

 

 

she wondered if all men were as false in the Seven Kingdoms. When her son sat the Iron Throne, she would see that he had bloodriders of his own to protect him against treachery in his Kingsguard

This is before Viserys dies, even before he gets angry for the dinner and tries to strike her. Yep yep.

And there's more (next Dany's chapters):

she will punish the Green Grace relative because he forgot the his slave's name, and in her last chapter she won't remember the girl Drogon roasted.

 

ETA: Also, the 'Daughter of Death' vision in the House of the Undying shows her pictures of Rhaegar, Viserys and her neverborn barbaric warlord son, as to stress that she had to walk 'over their cold corpses' before becoming the heir of the House.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

The parallels between Jon, Dany and Cersei aren't on just their rulings. It's also how they respond

to prophecy.

Cersei bases many of her decisions on Maggy's prophecy and actively tries to avert it, Daenerys refers to it a bit and Jon ignores it.

The parallels between ,Cersei, Jon and Daenerys are still there. It's just less obvious in Cersei's case since she's in AFFC.

Edited December 18, 2015 by WindyNights

[bobbybuilderton]

Is there a character that didn't have their book 4 or 5 story gutted?

Maybe Jon? He is one of the few characters in the show who has actually improved the last couple of seasons. IMO.

well that was mostly in response to shimpy saying they kept pretty close to it so far

[Chris24601]

In the show, the

Pink Letter isn't earned and doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be a culmination of Jon's constant oath-breaking and favoritism for Stannis. In the show, Jon did nothing wrong.

My personal take is that, so long as the show is consistent with itself, I don't mind minor deviations. There are nuances you can explore in prose that are difficult to portray and can be easily lost in film and television. While many book fans appreciate the shades of grey, there's research suggesting that upwards of 90% of the population prefers a bit more black and white in their stories.

 

So I can't begrudge D&D too much for whitewashing certain characters like Tyrion because, while he's done a LOT of grey to dark grey things, his internal monologue helps make them more understandable to readers so he remains a sympathetic figure. But the show doesn't have that storytelling device available to it and risks Tyrion being seen as a monster without the means to easily see what he's thinking. So they choose to drop some of the dark grey elements to keep him as sympathetic to the viewing audience as he has been in the books to this point.

 

I suspect its much the same with (Book 5/Season5 spoiler)

Jon, removing his clear favoritism towards Stannis and ever more compromised decisions up to and including the pink letter that gets him stabbed. As Shimpy herself has pointed out, there's a dearth of characters worth rooting for in the show right now as bad things keep happening to them... its one of the reasons she jumped the wall in the first place. Half my non-bookwalker friends were ready to join "Team White Walker" and just drop the show if Jon doesn't come back because he was one of the last true "good guys" left in the show. Like it or not, if Jon IS the big hero of the series, then D&D have set him up perfectly so that the vast majority of the audience is actually rooting for him now and will be even more invested in the show when he rises from the dead and his parentage is revealed... provided its what the show has heavily anviled last season particularly

[Delta1212]

My personal take is that, so long as the show is consistent with itself, I don't mind minor deviations. There are nuances you can explore in prose that are difficult to portray and can be easily lost in film and television. While many book fans appreciate the shades of grey, there's research suggesting that upwards of 90% of the population prefers a bit more black and white in their stories.

So I can't begrudge D&D too much for whitewashing certain characters like Tyrion because, while he's done a LOT of grey to dark grey things, his internal monologue helps make them more understandable to readers so he remains a sympathetic figure. But the show doesn't have that storytelling device available to it and risks Tyrion being seen as a monster without the means to easily see what he's thinking. So they choose to drop some of the dark grey elements to keep him as sympathetic to the viewing audience as he has been in the books to this point.

I suspect its much the same with (Book 5/Season5 spoiler)

Jon, removing his clear favoritism towards Stannis and ever more compromised decisions up to and including the pink letter that gets him stabbed. As Shimpy herself has pointed out, there's a dearth of characters worth rooting for in the show right now as bad things keep happening to them... its one of the reasons she jumped the wall in the first place. Half my non-bookwalker friends were ready to join "Team White Walker" and just drop the show if Jon doesn't come back because he was one of the last true "good guys" left in the show. Like it or not, if Jon IS the big hero of the series, then D&D have set him up perfectly so that the vast majority of the audience is actually rooting for him now and will be even more invested in the show when he rises from the dead and his parentage is revealed... provided its what the show has heavily anviled last season particularly

Season 6 shooting stuff that pretty much confirms the inclusion of a certain plot element that was left out in a previous season:

It looks like we're getting the Tower of Joy this year. My guess is through Branvision, but that last is just speculation on my part.

[stillshimpy]

Thank you for the dual spoiler tag info on that Digital Count, I really appreciate the heads up on the "season five, but don't click this" thing.

A couple of things on Dany's decision making process: What I was struck by is that we're seeing her ruling training wheels and whereas it's exasperating to see her pardon a rapist because he was raping "property" at the time , that larger point was what caught me: she knew if she started "gelding" all rapists, that she'd rule a city of eunuchs. So all well and good, completely true, yadda bladda, but I kept waiting for her to come up with a punishment specific to having raped a slave, be it a fine with flogging, or monetary compensation paid to the victim (which was the one that seemed the no-brainer to me) and it was apparently all or nothing.

I didn't know if that was a specific choice for her arc in this book: that she'll have to be less rigid in her definition if she expects to rule effectively: the art of compromise isn't in making everyone happy, because that's impossible, but rather that no one feels unduly favored. Her solutions in that throne session were very black and white.

Also, I kind of keep waiting for the "I'm a kinslayer" stuff to start up for her. It's something that seems to plague everyone else as a notion. Dany had her brother killed, not that I can blame her and that's one area where the TV series trumped the book: Book Viserys it's a case of good riddance to bad rubbish and I didn't find him sympathetic at all. Harold Lloyd made Viserys truly pitiable in that moment. Yes, he's a creepizoid, but his death is truly horrible and she did actually have the option of simply letting him go to try and make his own way in the world.

But I did like that Dany's decisions reflect her age and her inability to strike a balance. I don't know that I really like Dany as much as she seems to be the anointed one, so I'm glad that I don't dislike her.

I also liked that as these people are bringing, in some cases, evidence of their ruined lives before her she is doing things like focusing on her feet being pinched, etc. It doesn't make her a good ruler, but it does fit her age, which if fourteen or fifteen. I know Martin has copped to making a mistake with the younger character's ages and that he initially planned for a five year span, but every now and then he actually includes something that fits the character age. Dany's decisions were not very nuanced. Similarly, whenever she thinks of returning to Westeros the character it most resembles is Sansa. She has a very young person's understanding of what went down in the rebellion. Robert's just the jackass Usurper and she thinks gladly about visiting vengeance upon his "dogs" without questioning any of the things that led up to that.

It's one area where the Dunk and Egg books come into play, as well as one of the few things that made Robert not entirely suck as a ruler: He truly pardoned and befriended many of the lords who fought against him. It was his one strength as a ruler presumably because at least Jon Arryn understood that there was no way to keep a land together without that.

So it is like watching her in the months after she's attempting to go forth without her training wheels.

Okay, well next up is a Jon chapter and it will be fun to check in with him. I hope :-)

[Delta1212]

Yeah, the trick is striking a balance between making the punishment harsh enough that people don't immediately go out and start plotting against you assuming that nothing will happen to them, but giving enough people an out that they'll be won't resist you forever because they assume their dead if they yield.

Typically, I think, the way to do that is punishing the ringleaders extremely harshly and making everyone else feel like they just scraped out of sharing a similar fate so they'll shy away from signing themselves up for what the leadership got the first time around.

But that balance is not always easy to pull off, and Dany seems to be struggling with flipping back and forth between extremes instead of settling into a compromise between the two.

[stillshimpy]

Plus, some of those decisions, I think, are designed to illustrate that maybe Dany took away the wrong message from a couple of things that make them seem like such contradictions. She did learn from the Mirri situation and the lesson wasn't a particularly good one: that mercy and compassion in this instance of rape will actually come back and bite her in the butt, quite badly.

So that challenges her ability to be compassionate for the sake of compassion. She almost seems to be warding it off and because that's the first betrayal, of course it stands out to her.

Jorah's betrayal teaches her an even worse lesson: In order to protect herself form that sort of betrayal again, she's questioning the loyalty of everyone around her. Daario, Missandei, presumably others. She even wonders which one will be next. So instead of learning to be cautious and ask question along the way, she just has her shields up. It's the "do a 180" lesson and that's not going to be a good problem solving technique either.

So whereas I don't like her in that "wow, what a cool admirable character!" way, I like that she weirdly has some realistic touches -- which is not easy to pull off in someone who sits around thinking about how she would have married her brother's son -- when it comes to her emotional development impacting her ability to rule.

[mac123x]

Book 5:

..."who sits around thinking about how she would have married her brother's son" --- heh heh heh {evil laugh}

Edited December 18, 2015 by mac123x

[WindyNights]

So I can't begrudge D&D too much for whitewashing certain characters like Tyrion because, while he's done a LOT of grey to dark grey things, his internal monologue helps make them more understandable to readers so he remains a sympathetic figure. But the show doesn't have that storytelling device available to it and risks Tyrion being seen as a monster without the means to easily see what he's thinking. So they choose to drop some of the dark grey elements to keep him as sympathetic to the viewing audience as he has been in the books to this point.

But he's

not sympathetic. There's a point where he's raped a slave, feels bad for what he did and then rapes her again. This is after he might have been affected with greyscale but he doesn't care. And then there's the fact that he's very misogynistic and abusive. He hits Shae in the face after he thinks she says something that he thinks is mocking of him. Hell, there seems to be some foreshadowing that he's going to kill Penny. And he literally wants to rape Cerse. White-washing Tyrion is the same as putting Sansa in Jeyne's shoes, it destroys their arcs.

Edited December 18, 2015 by WindyNights

[jellyroll2]

Book 5:

..."who sits around thinking about how she would have married her brother's son" --- heh heh heh {evil laugh}

I still pray this doesn't happen. But if it does (stay out shimpy)  

it'll be loveless and they'll both be miserable lol. And then there's (f)Aegon who she'll probably end up killing even if he is her brother's son. LOL

[Terra Nova]

So they choose to drop some of the dark grey elements 

 

Some? More like all of them: what has Show!Tyrion done to even slightly upset viewers? He even killed that traitorous Shae in self-defense!

[WindyNights]

There is this feeling I get that the D&D think they can make ASOIAF darker so long as they keep their Tyrion as the ideal hero.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, first Jon chapter down too :-) These early chapters have a couple of things holding them back: One is the need to play catch-up with the characters, but I already know what's going on at the wall, that Jon will send Mance's baby away, and season five

I know where at least some of the stuff with Jon is heading. Including that "only a monster would commit a child to flames" which sort of made me sigh.

Weird future spoiler for a book that I stumbled over here

I do know that Martin has said Shireen will die in the same manner in the next book. Someone here talked about it, under a tag but it was one of the ones that was show related and I screwed up and read it. So that's depressing as hell.

But a lot of the first chapter was just stuff with the Wolves. I don't know what the giant goat is. It's clear the wolves are supposed to be linked and that chapter as good as confirms that Nymeria is the wolf in the woods outside of Riverrun. It also introduced some new characters, some more "oh jeez, another crop of hateful buggers" than others.

I anticipate the Wall story being more interesting after we clear the point in the story where Sam is shipped off.

There were several funny things in chapter. I've learned never to trust a cook, because they might prune you when you're least expecting it ;-) That the mark of Stannis Baratheon's affection is in fewer and fewer death threats in escalating conversations. I've also learned that the thing he had in common with Robert was that there's no real need to fear what he says, it's what he doesn't say. Seeing as he's hardly a chatty bastard most of the time, that only leaves the bulk of any given exchange.

Onward to catch up with Bran, it seems.

[bobbybuilderton]

season 5 spoiler

there are those that believe the showrunners saying grrm told them shireen would be burned was them hiding from controversy. not sure where i fall on that conversation, but they dont exactly instill hope in me that that wasnt the case

 

ETA:and SEEE stannis is funny in his own weird, dry, humorless way

Edited December 19, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Lady S.]

season 5 spoiler

there are those that believe the showrunners saying grrm told them shireen would be burned was them hiding from controversy. not sure where i fall on that conversation, but they dont exactly instill hope in me that that wasnt the case

That only makes sense if TWoW is indeed never coming out, otherwise they'd be proven liars as soon as it did. And even if it's just they-said/he-said Martin's statement would be given more weight in this case, there's nothing stopping him from speaking up if they're just flat out making shit up about him. He's offered his thoughts on other show vs. books subjects.

[WindyNights]

@shimpy That's not really true. GRRM hasn't been confirmed to have stated that it's going to be in his next book or even in the series.

It's very doubtful it'll be in TWOW though.

@Stone Actually he won't publicly go into a feud with them. It's bad form. Even with the Jaime rape scene he was very passive.

But about them being proven liars it wouldn't matter because by then the controversy will have died down.

Edited December 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[Ashara Payne]

The theory is that it will happen under different circumstances, due to characters being in different locations.

[WindyNights]

If it's happening it's definitely not happening the same way as in the show.

Anyways GRRM might have had the idea but he's subject to change his mind. His plot points aren't set in stone.

He says he's a gardener not an architect when it comes to story meaning he has some ideas that he plants down that might come to fruition but sometimes he culls them.

There were several funny things in chapter. I've learned never to trust a cook, because they might prune you when you're least expecting it ;-) That the mark of Stannis Baratheon's affection is in fewer and fewer death threats in escalating conversations. I've also learned that the thing he had in common with Robert was that there's no real need to fear what he says, it's what he doesn't say. Seeing as he's hardly a chatty bastard most of the time, that only leaves the bulk of any given exchange.

I always thought that Stannis was actually pretty chatty.

[mac123x]

I don't know what the giant goat is.

 

The wolves don't have context for what they see sometimes.  From the holy text:

 

 

 

A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him.

 

Shaggydog just killed and ate something he hadn't encountered before.

 

I liked hearing Jon's side of the conversation with Sam, and the parts where Jon kinda just tuned him out.  "Yeah yeah, there have been younger Lord Commanders, whatever".  Also, Sam doesn't have a poker face because Jon noticed that Sam reacted weirdly when Jon mentioned that Bran was dead.

Oops, that's the next Jon chapter.  Stuff blurs together sometimes,

 

Also, a bit creepy that Mel said "you know nothing, Jon Snow".  Channeling Ygritte, or just coincidence?

Edited December 19, 2015 by mac123x

[Lady S.]

@Stone Actually he won't publicly go into a feud with them. It's bad form. Even with the Jaime rape scene he was very passive.

But about them being proven liars it wouldn't matter because by then the controversy will have died down.

I assume this is directed at me, but I wasn't talking about going into a public feud. If he says they misunderstood or misremembered or just that he changed his mind or reserves the right to do so, they're not going to argue with him. There's no reason to assume they do want a feud. And neither they nor Alex Graves tried to bring Martin's name into Septgate and say he wrote Jaime as a rapist. I would agree that D&D don't respect the books as much as they claim to, but not that they have no respect for the man himself.

There are those of us here who think there's some basis in the books for such an outcome. Racefortheironthrone first touched on the idea is his ACOK analysis before s5 started, and expanded on how he thinks it will go down after s5 aired.

[WindyNights]

@Lady S Spoiler that link. We don't want shimpy reading that until after she finished ADWD.

GRRM actually (don't read this shimpy)

aborts ideas all the time though. Like Tyrion burning down Winterfell which seems to have still been an idea in AGoT and not just in the outline as well as Daenerys going to Asshai. Tyrion was also supposed to meet the Shrouded Lord in ADWD as well.

In addition GRRM is still coming up with twists so his ideas aren't really set in stone at all.

And he's already said that there will be people that will live to the end that are dead on the show.

I think he's referring to (don't read this shimpy)

the minor characters but I think Stannis as well. If we're going with a King Jon scenario there is too much good irony to pass up Stannis joining the new Night's Watch as the 1000th LC and interacting with Jon as the new king of Westeros

Edited December 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

@max123:

spoiler that, it's next Jon's chapter - or even the one after that - ^^

A general suggestion, for every BookWalker: if you don't have a copy of the book or you lack the time for a proper re-read, just use the synopsis at A Wikia of Ice and Fire, they're very detailed but still shorter that the real deal :)

 

@Windy:

(discussion about the leaked very first draft of ASoIaF, synopsis wildly diverging even during the first book, but some may not like to know):

exactly, still in ACoK you can read Tyrion compassionate thoughts about the Starks, which not only seems some residual from the Ur-text, but it's also a plot point that's been completely dropped afterwards. There's his disquiet when Ghost attacked him, another residual maybe, but apart from that I don't see Tyrion ever again interacting with the Starks anyway (and I want him as far as possible from Sansa)

 

 

As for D&D comments for saving their rear after the uproar, they are nebulous enough to leave some space to interpretation. GRRM even stated that characters already dead in the show will survive the books. He also flat out refused to answer a comment on his blog asking if it was true stating that he can't comment on something he hasn't written yet. And that anyway he would sabotage himself, so he won't spoil future plot points anyway.

 

At that point I already gave up watching the show, and they managed to spoil me anyway since their statement was spammed all over the internet and online newspapers were glad to put giant titles like 'GRRM confirms show death!'... with a nice picture of the deceased for you to see :) thanks D&D, thanks a lot.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@lady S also I've already read that btw. And there are parts of his analysis that are really wonky. Like (don't ready this shimpy)

Melisandre trying to get Stannis to sacrifice Shireen from the start and using Edric to get him closer to that goal. That doesn't really make sense because Stannis would murder Mel if it didn't work and Stannis would never try it again as a result. Also Shireen being Stannis' most dear thing isn't really supported in the text because well they hardly interact. I'm sure he cares about but still.

@Terra Nova There's also all the

Stark wolves attacking Tyrion back in AGOT when Robb received him I thought it was supposed to mean something but barring Tyrion massacring the rest of the Starks or being the Great Other,

it definitely doesn't seem like an idea that'll get revisited.

Edited December 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

Yes, it may be explained as

Tyrion eventually aligning with the Lannisters in the war of the Five Kings and starting a darker path

, but it's more a retcon. It has to be taken as some sort of echo of abandoned ideas, and not

as an evidence that the wolves are unreliable in detecting evil

 

Anyway, talking about Jon chapter, the display of unwilling humor on Stannis' part is hilarious ('I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King’s Landing'). 

Edited December 19, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

I've learned never to trust a cook, because they might prune you when you're least expecting it ;-)

 

I adore Dolorous Edd.  

Tyrion was also supposed to meet the Shrouded Lord in ADWD as well.

In addition GRRM is still coming up with twists so his ideas aren't really set in stone at all.

 

I see what you did there.  Heheh.

 

As for the dreadful thing that happened on the show but not (yet?) in the books,

I hope Shireen's death isn't needed to resurrect Jon.  Surely she isn't going to survive until The End though, being a loose end rallying figure for rebellion, just as Rickon might be.

[Delta1212]

Since it might not have been obvious, this is a somewhat controversial subject, especially among Stannis fans.

[WindyNights]

Yeah season 5 did not do Stannis justice. All the other characters got disservices to their story arcs but Stannis got a disservice to his very character. Same as Sansa.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I rather enjoyed Stannis' arc the first 7 episodes of season 5. It was the ending that ruined it. Everything that happened was incredibly rushed, and that doesn't even take into account the horrific moment that shall not be named. I do look forward to Shimpy finishing ADWD so we can discuss Stannis' fate.

I think I am in disagreement with many on the validity of the Pink Letter. I think Stannis does die in the battle of Ice. It is my belief that he will not be involved with whatever happens to Shireen.

[Haleth]

I'm a few chapters ahead and read something that made alarm bells go off.

Tyrion is on the boat writing down everything he knows about dragons for Haldon. He thinks about all the books that would be helpful. One in particular is called The Death of Dragons and is locked awayin a vault in the Citidel. That is what Jaqen is looking for, isn't it? That is what the key is for.

[Terra Nova]

@Haleth:

 

it's the generally accepted theory, with the informations we have thus far. I guess (book 5)

despite her crusade against slavers, Dany will be opposed by Braavos because she's seen as a Targ oppressor with weapons of mass destruction. Another hint is Tycho Nestoris saying Braavosi do not joke about dragons.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Terra Nova

[feverfew]

season 5 spoiler

there are those that believe the showrunners saying grrm told them shireen would be burned was them hiding from controversy. not sure where i fall on that conversation, but they dont exactly instill hope in me that that wasnt the case

 

ETA:and SEEE stannis is funny in his own weird, dry, humorless way

 

 

If it's happening it's definitely not happening the same way as in the show.

Anyways GRRM might have had the idea but he's subject to change his mind. His plot points aren't set in stone.

He says he's a gardener not an architect when it comes to story meaning he has some ideas that he plants down that might come to fruition but sometimes he culls them.

But if Martin told D&D that (season 5 spoiler)

Stannis/Melisandre/somebody would burn Shireen

and then later on changed his mind, we can't really accuse D&D of being lying liars who lies, can we? I mean, supposedly D&D has a sort of outline from Martin regarding the future books, but if he reneges on that outline years down the line, there's nothing much D&D can do. They have to produce a show now, and cannot wait for Martin to decide in twenty years time whether

Shireen and Stannis

lives or dies, nor the way they croak if they do.

 

I'm just not eager to condemn the showrunners, when we ourselves don't know what will happen in the next (two? three?) books. And as for that supposed feud, Martin's laughing all the way to bank, I'm sure... ;)

Edited December 19, 2015 by feverfew

[Protar]

But if Martin told D&D that (season 5 spoiler)

Stannis/Melisandre/somebody would burn Shireen

and then later on changed his mind, we can't really accuse D&D of being lying liars who lies, can we? I mean, supposedly D&D has a sort of outline from Martin regarding the future books, but if he reneges on that outline years down the line, there's nothing much D&D can do. They have to produce a show now, and cannot wait for Martin to decide in twenty years time whether

Shireen and Stannis

lives or dies, nor the way they croak if they do.

 

I'm just not eager to condemn the showrunners, when we ourselves don't know what will happen in the next (two? three?) books. And as for that supposed feud, Martin's laughing all the way to bank, I'm sure... ;)

 

If indeed Stannis ends up burning Shireen at the Battle of Winterfell, then D+D can be said to have been telling the truth. But that's looking incredibly unlikely given that in the books, Stannis and Shireen are hundreds of miles apart. Shireen probably burns, but possibly not by Stannis and almost certainly her death will not have anything directly to do with the Battle of Winterfell. And D+D meet with Martin every year to go over stuff. They're probably pretty clued in on what happens in TWOW. So basically it seems like Martin told them of this event, then they completely changed the context and claimed it was still Martin's idea. And the context is what is key for me. I know that Shimpy and others often just object to the sheer horridness of it all, but for me it's about execution. You can write the burning of Shireen tactfully and poignantly and I hope Martin pulls that off. But D+D just did it for shock. They condensed Stannis' decision so he burns his daughter after a day of defeat. He spends more time agonising over Gendry. That's my issue with it, and I have enough faith in Martin's writing that I can safely say it won't happen that way in the books.

[feverfew]

If indeed Stannis ends up burning Shireen at the Battle of Winterfell, then D+D can be said to have been telling the truth. But that's looking incredibly unlikely given that in the books, Stannis and Shireen are hundreds of miles apart. Shireen probably burns, but possibly not by Stannis and almost certainly her death will not have anything directly to do with the Battle of Winterfell. And D+D meet with Martin every year to go over stuff. They're probably pretty clued in on what happens in TWOW. So basically it seems like Martin told them of this event, then they completely changed the context and claimed it was still Martin's idea. And the context is what is key for me. I know that Shimpy and others often just object to the sheer horridness of it all, but for me it's about execution. You can write the burning of Shireen tactfully and poignantly and I hope Martin pulls that off. But D+D just did it for shock. They condensed Stannis' decision so he burns his daughter after a day of defeat. He spends more time agonising over Gendry. That's my issue with it, and I have enough faith in Martin's writing that I can safely say it won't happen that way in the books.

Season five spoilers:

But while I agree with you that it probably won't happen exactly that way in the books - seing as Martin has pages and pages to tell the story on, while D&D only have ten episodes pr season - I still think it's premature to label D&D liars, who gleefully blamed Martin afterwards. As for "completely changed the context" that's just conjecture at this point - unless you have special sources we don't know about? Personally, I like (well, not like, since I'm not insane) the motif of Stannis burning Shireen, since it follows the classic greek trajectory of a tragedy-protagonist, and it makes sense to me for a character who'll rather break than bend, but each to his/her own. Did I think his arc was perfectly executed in the show? Not in the least, but I understood it.

 

I think I'll stop here, because in a sense we're just going in circles. I'm having the weirdest deja-vu over this (and previous) discussions: I'm pretty sure I've already argued these points before on the show vs the books thread, and I'm a) not that interesting to listen to and b) not going to change anybody's mind. So I'm out - at least until Shimpy has finished Dance. Also, I feel a bit weird with all the spoiler-tags; it feels like keeping secrets from Shimpy which is crazy, since I really came here for her take on the books after seeing the show :)

 

Edit: With "out" I meant I'll stop commenting untill Shimpy's finished with Dance; I'll still read this thread eagerly, because you're all insanely clever, and I like reading your thoughts :)

Edited December 19, 2015 by feverfew

[WindyNights]

@Imp GRRM has already

confirmed that Stannis is alive as of the end of ADWD. Furthermore the Boltons aren't really that important and need to the taken care of so the White Walker storyline can finally begin. We're not going to spend the rest of the next book fighting Boltons and Jon trying to capture Winterfell. And add on top of that, the HOTU visions says that Daenerys will confront Stannis.

Edited December 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[ImpinAintEasy]

@Imp GRRM has already

confirmed that Stannis is alive as of the end of ADWD. Furthermore the Boltons aren't really that important and need to the taken care of so the White Walker storyline can finally begin. We're not going to spend the rest of the next book fighting Boltons and Jon trying to capture Winterfell. And add on top of that, the HOTU visions says that Daenerys will confront Stannis.

 

Has he? I must have missed it. All I know is that the Theon sample chapter from TWOW takes place chronologically before Jon's final chapter in ADWD. I don't think Stannis will survive TWOW. I think he'll be dead by the mid-way point. I don't take the HOTU vision to mean that Dany will confront Stannis. I took it simply to show that Stannis was false and not AA reborn. Just like "Aegon" is false and not really Rhaegar's son. It's all a guessing game at this point. I have a hard time believing the show would be so eager to get rid of such a great actor if his character was meant to live a lot longer in the books.

[stillshimpy]

Don't leave me, feverfew, it's just me and a bunch of bars in here!! 

[Haleth]

Well, read faster, Shimpy! Lol

[Dev F]

As for D&D comments for saving their rear after the uproar, they are nebulous enough to leave some space to interpretation.

 

D&D's comments came in their "Inside the Episode" commentary, which was recorded during the production of the season and released immediately after the episode aired. So it's impossible for it to have been an ass-covering reaction to any sort of "uproar," because it entirely predates any audience reaction at all.

 

Now, of course, the showrunners could've anticipated that book fans might be upset by a major death that hasn't happened yet in the books and preemptively attempted to reassure them that it was based in a future book event. But preparing ahead of time for such a contingency is exactly the opposite of being caught off-guard by a negative reaction and scrambling to cover their butts.

[Mya Stone]

Listen guys. We have other threads where this debate can take place. Really, at this point, this has been discussed ad nauseum and RECENTLY (aka this last season), so I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind.

Let's move on, okay?

[bobbybuilderton]

Well my only reason for mentioning it is because I know the unsullied didn't know anything outside of what was in the episodes.

Idon't think knowing he allegedly confirmed it to them means much, since I think the context will be significantly different. They missed the point on so many other moments that it would be unsurprising if things happen differently. I highly doubt the book version will involve the character 180s that happened in the show. Season 5 spoiler

selyse suddenly feels so bad about it after seasons of openly hating her and stannis is suddenly super loving and protective leading up to it just so that it hurts more when it happens? Makes no sense and it's that sort of blatant tactless emotional manipulation that made me start losing interest in the show. Started with robb and talisa at the red wedding. For some reason people are okay with that and seem to enjoy it, but it stopped being my cup of tea about two years ago,

Okay I'm getting off my soapbox now.