Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Protar]

You're starting to see why so many readers have issues with the last two books. But I'm also with Protar in saying that it's less Martin's fault but that of his editor. These two books feel like they could've benefited from a lot of trimming because they read like they haven't been edited at all. 

There were some very questionable decisions on what to include at the end of book five, like chapters that had already been written but, for some reason, were postponed until the sixth book. 

But we should get into that once you're done reading. 

 

Actually my point was that I think his editor was doing their best, but given how successful Martin is - one of the most successful fantasy authors  - he has a lot more clout nowadays to challenge the editor's decisions. I recall a lot of reports of this happening, the editor suggesting cutting something and Martin just...not cutting it. 

[Terra Nova]

@John Potts:

 

you may want to spoiler tag those info about next book

Davos being alive, even if Shimpy is uninterested

 

@Alayne Stone

 

I like how Shimpy gets something right from the start, and some other times in a similar situation goes the opposite way XD Like fearing Dog will die or that the Kindly Man CLEARLY is not kind...

[Eegah]

I may be completely alone in this, but until Season 5 replaced the Kindly Man with Jaqen, I was really pulling for him to be played by Tim Curry. And I still hear Curry's voice on his lines.

[nksarmi]

Yea I have to say the pacing of book four is why I had a small tendency to skip chapters and then go back and skim other POVs I cared less about.  I know for a fact I've missed stuff because of that and I can't say how grateful I am that there is an obsessive fandom to point what I missed out to me so I don't have to go back and reread. :) 

 

I do look forward to book six but I'm scared at the same time that there isn't a chance in seven hells that GRRM will get anything more than a spell/grammar check for an edit.

[stillshimpy]

Hello WSmith, nice to have you here. Edited: You too, dragonbone, you posted while I was writing this :-)

I really am enjoying the book, but suffer from something that is a bit unlike what most readers would have the first time: so I have the bare bones ideas of how most of these stories will go. Will Brienne, Pyle and Hunt find Sansa or Arya? Well no. No, they will not find either character. Martin made the -- admittedly -- bold decision to just sort of make that obvious from the get-go by telling the readers where both Sansa and Arya are and thereby making it obvious that unless a helpful Weasley twin apparates into the situation, grabs the lot of them and magically transports them, horse, foot and artillery?

Yeah. Not happening. So Martin made the decision to simply have them wander around a bit, taking the pulse of the land. Having mild adventures, thus far. Ruminating on War, the many causes, the untold victims. Bearing witness a bunch. Please don't mistake me there, he's doing a good job with that, but I know I've mentioned how much history I've studied and even if I hadn't, this would still be well-trod material. Whether it starts with The Red Badge of Courage, Slaughterhouse Five, Two Women, Three Soldiers or in a rather daring move for a high school: staging Lysistrata almost everyone has encountered this before: War, What is it Good For? Absolutely nothing. Say it again. And also? Is exceptionally hard on the actual people of a place as well as the soldiers. In fact, long after the soldiers are either pushing up daisies, playing various stringed instruments in any number of envisioned afterlives or simply having gone home to try and pick up life where they last placed it down; life will have sucked for and continue to suck for the people who are caught in the middle of whatever power play is being enacted.

I mean, you really don't want to sit next to me at a dinner party and ask me about civilian deaths in World War I or II. You might if your entire plan for said dinner is to not enjoy any of it and skip the dessert course just to flee a little faster, but my point here would be? Yes, Martin is doing a good and thoughtful job of with Brienne's material.

Aside from needing a strong edit on much of this, he's also simply misplaced his narrative focus for this installment. It's not a bad story. It's quite good and the characterizations are so much better on the page. I like hanging out with Brienne's character, she's a decent human being. I'll admit, the amount of time she and everyone else spends thinking about how unattractive she is gets a little bit "Okay, you've made your point plenty."

Mostly this book seems to be more about "Let's hang around characters we already know. Check in with them. See what's what. Very, very, very slowly word will slowly, slowly, trickle-at-most out that Tywin Lannister is dead." The most interesting plot thus far is Dorne and season five

, I already pretty much know how much of that isn't going to work out, seeing as the show dumped a full 90 percent of the story in favor of making Ellaria Sand the central figure...and I also know that poor freaking Myrcella is just plain old dead by the end of season five, even if they hadn't already made that story far less interesting for reasons unknown to me.

So I get the reading experience of "Knowing at least the bare bones basics of how this story will go....this wheel spinning just seems very, very drawn out ....for the sake of drawing it out" but that's bearable and even interesting. What I keep thinking about is how freaking livid fans must have been, because in a lot of cases, they will end up waiting close to ten damned years to find out what happened to their favorite characters.

The guy who wrote to Neil Gaiman was way over the line. So far over it that the line was a mere dot on the horizon behind him, that he long, long since crossed. Having said that? I at least have an inkling of why that dude snapped like a wet carrot, lost all sense of appropriate boundaries, essentially took to stalking someone's blog to see if they were using their personal time efficiently (?!?!?) and then hopefully in the aftermath of that appropriately scathing response, I hope it swiftly dawned on that poor guy 'I ...might not be doing my own mental health any giant favors in this stuff....time for a new hobby!' " out of it all.

But I am least getting a glimpse into where that level of frustration might have started.

It's a good story, I am enjoying it....but I have a feeling that my experience is just a tiny thing compared to how it must have felt waiting for the books to be released and then plowing through them, in that way we all do when something is long anticipated, getting to the end and wanting to yodel.

By the way, there's another reason I didn't freak the hell out over Davos seemingly being dead and anyone who has a kindle fire will know what happened. When accessing the notes, or go-to feature you can (and if you are me, frequently do) accidentally hit the last page function, where you are taken to the very last page of the book before a glossary, or maps. It's usually just the acknowledgment page and it makes no difference whatsoever, it's just kind of an annoying function. "Let me just check the....GAH! Great, okay, so instead of going to the dead end of the book, maybe go to where I wanted to?"

In this case the first time I did that I saw George R. R. Martin's last part of what appeared to be a note to fans, talking about how Stannis, Jon, Tyrion, Davos, Dany and Melisandre would all be back for the next book. I didn't consider that a spoiler, because Mya and I had already discussed the "there is a different way to read four and five, if you're interested" and why people came up with that different order: Because characters are not in this installment.

The Kindle Function allowed Martin himself to spoil me: Yeah, Davos isn't dead. That's not his head and someone really wanted to fake it being his head by adding the mutilated hand.

On what I thought of the Leeching scene being hyper sexualized: Well, they tied their narrative in knots to get Gendry to Dragonstone. Melisandre sets off in a boat to fetch Gendry, who she essentially just wanders into in the company of the Brotherhood, who proceeds to SELL HIM to Melisandre. So they ruined the hell out of the Brotherhood in order to get Gendry to the place where he could be naked with Mel.

HBO is apparently unaware that you can see ass-naked people engaged in all manner of things, hell, standing around and eating waffles, for all I know. I do think audiences freak out too much over sex (whole argument to be made about how we're far too comfortable with hideous violence and nearly faint dead away at the sight of breasts) , the actress who plays Melisandre is beautiful and it did give Gendry the chance for some character development. It didn't bother me. I think when contemplating the murder of a completely innocent person in order to gain power, that there isn't some cleaner, purer version to be had. If anything, having a child leeched -- a child who we later see is actually rather loyal to Stannis -- and the poor kid having NO IDEA that there is a plan to harm in the wind, seems far more sinister.

So the show's treatment actually fit the intent of that better, I thought. What Melisandre is doing is terrible and the book sort of backbends around having Stannis face up to how truly horrible the shit she is doing actually is. Sure, Stannis wanted proof before burning Robert's only living child (that Stannis knows of) alive, but that's not exactly a high bar for decency, because when it did work, it was going to be a spot of Edric Flambe had Davos -- and this is key -- several other people not acted to put a stop to it.

The addition of Melisandre's perfect breasts didn't bother me. I didn't think it was cheap or tawdry. I thought it actually was a more interesting treatment of Melisandre than the books tend to give her. Mel of the show is a woman with serious intent, who is not even close to being above manipulating and using the hell out of people...and who is only ever feigning human emotion and doing a rather poor job of it. Mel of the show -- there's just no way in the world to think of her as anything other than sinister. Beautiful? Absolutely and they've usually made good use of how stunning the actress really is, but juxtaposing that "Wow, so you're so perfect looking, I can see why people made statues to try and capture that kind of physical perfection"....she's so flawless, it's almost eerie and transcends being purely sexual or titillating. The show has made good use of that contrast.

But in the case of Gendry and the leeching they made the choice to do that at the expense of revealing that Davos Seaworth is not the only person with an actual soul, or a sense of what is decent or can be justified by war. That was a big, important detail to lose.

It's important to have people that don't fully suck in a tale. It just is, if you're going to stretch that tale out for ages, it helps people care what happens to the participants. Part of what happened with the show, after I cried all over my dog at the end of last season was that it was a case of "FUCK THIS. Fuck this fuckity fucking, fuckfest of fuckery." ....in my personal experience, you have to have some balance in a tale in order to have anyone care what happens to the characters after a while.

Season five

and I hated, just plain old fashioned hated, Stannis as he marched his men towards certain death...ON FOOT...and then after a season of forcing Brienne into being the most useless person to ever useless...having Stannis grit out "go on, do your duty" ...because they had the character give away the right to ever utter the words duty or honor when he HID IN THE BACKGROUND as his little girl screamed in agony.

And yes, I know that was just a show thing. But it's part of the reason it's important to have several people complicit in getting Edric Storm the fuck out of harm's way. Why I can't remember half the names in this tale, but I remember Cortnay Penrose pretty freaking easily. In the midst of the never-ending suck that is war, for me there needs to be people whose grasp on who they are, and what they believe, what they are made of and what is just and right is not entirely fucking dependent upon circumstance, opportunity and saving ones own skin.

Everyone, including me, makes fun of Sansa's love of silly stories in which things are very simplistic and good. People are more complicated than that. But you know, they're actually more complicated than "And at the first whiff of armed combat, every aspect of that person, other than berserker, will flee the scene."

Include all the breasts, perfect and otherwise. Throw in as many phalluses as seem appropriate to the situation, but please don't make the story more simplistic in order to do so.

Edited November 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Well, about meeting Davos again, of course, Stannis's arc in Dance starts few days after the end of Storm ^^ so according to the timeline Davos should get chopped like an onion around one third of Dance.

 

But talking about frustration, here's something even wilder: Martin likes to read chapters of upcoming books at conventions and stuff (there are already... seven or eight chapter from Winds of Winter out there on his website or as summaries by attendants at the conferences). In, I may be mistaken, 2000, Martin read what was supposed to be the fourth chapter of a character in the upcoming Feast: it ended up being first postponed to Dance, and then at the very end of it. The chapter is (something covered in season 5, but knowing it happens in the books too maybe a spoiler in itself; anyway, nothing's lost if you do not know which chapter in particular)

Daznak's Pit

. So there's people knowing since 2000 the central plot point of a character

Dany tames Drogon!!one!!1

, who read all Feast and Dance knowing it would happen, only to have it at the very end of the book with just a tiny coda after that. I can imagine a lot of books being thrown at walls ^^'

 

It would be interesting, once you're done with Feast, Shimpy, and if you want of course, hear if according to you there was another way to adapt Dorne's plot into the series, or just which elements of it are really important and which ones could have been discarded ^^

 

ETA: about Shimpy's comment (under spoiler) about Brienne:

 

and then after a season of forcing Brienne into being the most useless person to ever useless

eheheh, that's one of the main complaint BookWalkers had with the show: they managed to turn what, according to some big chunk of fandom, is one of the most uneventful, boring arcs in the books into an even more boring arc in the series ^^'

Edited November 19, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

I don't have a problem with nudity myself, and Carice (Melisandre) is a very beautiful woman. I was just more baffled by it because I couldn't see any kind of... point to it, I guess. I mean, the show presented it in a way that made it look like the sex was necessary, but never what for. So I was left very confused. Melisandre did say that one should 'never show the lamb the knife' (or some such) but considering that her behaviour with the leeches was practically poking the lamb in the face with the knife, I couldn't buy that as the reason.

 

I was in a similar situation to you shimpy in that Dance was already released when I started reading the books (and I naively thought it was the last), so I didn't have the disappointment that long-term fans would have had on reading Feast.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Well, about meeting Davos again, of course, Stannis's arc in Dance starts few days after the end of Storm ^^ so according to the timeline Davos should get chopped like an onion around one third of Dance.

 

But talking about frustration, here's something even wilder: Martin likes to read chapters of upcoming books at conventions and stuff (there are already... seven or eight chapter from Winds of Winter out there on his website or as summaries by attendants at the conferences). In, I may be mistaken, 2000, Martin read what was supposed to be the fourth chapter of a character in the upcoming Feast: it ended up being first postponed to Dance, and then at the very end of it. The chapter is (something covered in season 5, but knowing it happens in the books too maybe a spoiler in itself; anyway, nothing's lost if you do not know which chapter in particular)

Daznak's Pit

. So there's people knowing since 2000 the central plot point of a character

Dany tames Drogon!!one!!1

, who read all Feast and Dance knowing it would happen, only to have it at the very end of the book with just a tiny coda after that. I can imagine a lot of books being thrown at walls ^^'

 

It would be interesting, once you're done with Feast, Shimpy, and if you want of course, hear if according to you there was another way to adapt Dorne's plot into the series, or just which elements of it are really important and which ones could have been discarded ^^

 

ETA: about Shimpy's comment (under spoiler) about Brienne:

eheheh, that's one of the main complaint BookWalkers had with the show: they managed to turn what, according to some big chunk of fandom, is one of the most uneventful, boring arcs in the books into an even more boring arc in the series ^^'

 

 

 

 

I don't think Shimpy can fully form an opinion on book Dorne and why the show altered so much of it until she has read 'Dance', and even then

we still don't know how big of a role "Aegon" will play in the books. I think he is going to take the iron throne, with Dorne being aligned with him via a marriage to Arianne. He will eventually be at war with Dany. However, instead of introducing him in the show, they are going to keep the Lannisters on the throne until Dany arrives, IMO. In some ways, I think Tommen is taking over some of "Aegon's" role, and Margaery is replacing Arianne. What that means for Dorne? I suspect they will support Dany in the show.

 

Having said that, nothing can explain how bad Dorne is in the show.

[mac123x]

AFFC spoiler (though Shimpy accidentally read that section):

When you read the "Meanwhile, back at the Wall.." afterword, GRRM states that he wrote AFFC and ADWD as one big book but decided to split it into two geographically, implying that ADWD was essentially complete at the time AFFC was published.  He explicitly stated in that afterword that the next book would be another big one, and would hopefully be coming out in about a year.  Reality was it took more than 5 years.  I can imagine fans during year 4 of that "about a year later" period getting very annoyed.  At least with WoW he's avoided setting expectations like that.

[Alayne Stone]

I remember there had been an uproar over that Gendry/Melisandre scene. I was not one of those people who felt that way ... at the time.

 

The nudity isn't what bugged me. What bugged me, in hindsight, is that a series of convoluted steps were taken to transplant Gendry from his original storyline into a completely new one ... and absolutely nothing amounted from it. That thread was just completely dropped. If the whole point was to let Gendry row off into obscurity, why not just leave him where he was with the Brotherhood? They completely dropped the ball on that storyline as well.

 

Shimpy, I know you briefly mentioned the fact that the book was taking forever to reveal the second part of Cersei's prophesy, but I can't remember if you actually said if it has been revealed or not. I honestly didn't realize it took this long in the book. (And yes, this is me encouraging you to keep reading ... things do start to pick up plot wise toward the latter half of the book.)

[Terra Nova]

@Impin:

 

quite the contrary, Arianne's arc

finishes at the moment with Feast, her sample chapter being from Winds; also, it's funny how everyone just assumes that she will just marry Aegon (not a jab at you, but a lot of persons seem to reduce her value, and Dorne's as consequence,  to her hand in marriage). Dorne's arc in Feast is the story of a father and a daughter unable and unwilling to truly speak at each other; nothing of this survives in the show: Doran is truly a spineless Prince, Trystane is a tool and the Sand Snakes are universally considered bad (of course, they left the door open for a later retcon, with Varys talking about him and others cooperating to cast down Robert). In hindsight for example it would have been better to replace Ellaria in King's Landing with Arianne, instead of dealing later with a bunch of Dornish women to be introduced and characterized. Since a big emphasis is put on time constraint, it would have been better to trim the number of characters before, and at the same time retaining the main protagonist of that plot. Also, since they apparently moved Stannis' plot to a reanimated Jon Snow - and people rightly speculated at the end of the season that Littlefinger could have fought against the Boltons -, it seems to me they are willing to change, blend, put together a lot of stuff. Wouldn't have been better to have a single Arianne witnessing her uncle's demise, going back to Dorne for revenge, and sent later in the Small Council? This would have worked even once Aegon was scrapped. Or is the whole Dorne just an appendix on Aegon (not really) glorious restoration of the Targs? And what about the themes, the meaning of the Dornish plot? This too is independent on Aegon's existence. Of course, Shimpy will probably rethink on everything after Dance, but all in all we are here to hear her thoughts as she reads, even if they rely sometimes on partial infos, and I really like her musings

 

@Alayne:

 

I think at the time they were going to show Balon bite the dust, they even changed the order in which Stannis names the usurper (Balon was moved from first to second) so to have it corresponds with their timeline. Which of course didn't prevent Stannis to go all 'Burn my blood!' as soon as Robb died.

 

... I started writing this in order to give them some credit, but now I realize that it was never their plan to wait for all the three kings to die before Stannis was faced with the choice of burning Gendry. So, yeah, I don't know what was the goal (the booksnob in me says it was for painting Stannis in a worse light). But I tend to think that Gendry and Balon were supposed to have some closure to their arcs, but come the next season they just scrapped everything off. Like the son of Manderly, cast in a speaking role - the actor confirmed he would have interacted with Michelle Fairley - and then completely cut off safe for a brief appearance at the Red Wedding, with the merman brooch as a tiny hint of who he was.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

@Impin:

 

quite the contrary, Arianne's arc

finishes at the moment with Feast, her sample chapter being from Winds; also, it's funny how everyone just assumes that she will just marry Aegon (not a jab at you, but a lot of persons seem to reduce her value, and Dorne's as consequence,  to her hand in marriage). Dorne's arc in Feast is the story of a father and a daughter unable and unwilling to truly speak at each other; nothing of this survives in the show: Doran is truly a spineless Prince, Trystane is a tool and the Sand Snakes are universally considered bad (of course, they left the door open for a later retcon, with Varys talking about him and others cooperating to cast down Robert). In hindsight for example it would have been better to replace Ellaria in King's Landing with Arianne, instead of dealing later with a bunch of Dornish women to be introduced and characterized. Since a big emphasis is put on time constraint, it would have been better to trim the number of characters before, and at the same time retaining the main protagonist of that plot. Also, since they apparently moved Stannis' plot to a reanimated Jon Snow - and people rightly speculated at the end of the season that Littlefinger could have fought against the Boltons -, it seems to me they are willing to change, blend, put together a lot of stuff. Wouldn't have been better to have a single Arianne witnessing her uncle's demise, going back to Dorne for revenge, and sent later in the Small Council? This would have worked even once Aegon was scrapped. Or is the whole Dorne just an appendix on Aegon (not really) glorious restoration of the Targs? And what about the themes, the meaning of the Dornish plot? This too is independent on Aegon's existence. Of course, Shimpy will probably rethink on everything after Dance, but all in all we are here to hear her thoughts as she reads, even if they rely sometimes on partial infos, and I really like her musings

 

Well, ignoring "Aegon", we get Quentyn in 'Dance' too, and what happens with him, which will likely sour the Dornish on Dany. I don't mean to sound sexist or anything, but I do suspect Arianne's main purpose will be securing an alliance with "Aegon" through marriage. This is just my read on it, as I believe Arianne is the younger, more beautiful queen in Maggy's prophecy.

[Haleth]

Doran is truly a spineless Prince

Well, I'm not sure I agree with that.  

I think he's shrewd, matching two kids up with Targs (even scrambling for a new match when Viserys dies) and saving the spare heir for a match with the Lannisters, just in case the dragon thing doesn't work out.  Regarding the Arianne/Aegon pairing, wasn't that a leaked chapter from Winds?  I haven't read this, but I thought that's where the speculation came from?

 

About replacing Edric with a Gentry sex/torture scene, I think the knowledge that Mel was capable of hurting a little boy it might have made the burning of sweet little Shireen less of a shock.  But maybe the writers didn't want to lessen the shock?  What would be more disturbing... Mel wanting to kill a young man that we'd come to know (and apparently a fan fav?) or a little boy that hadn't been introduced to audiences?

Edited November 19, 2015 by Haleth

[John Potts]

WSmith84 considering that her behaviour with the leeches was practically poking the lamb in the face with the knife

 

 

I did think that maybe the reason for placing the leech in Gendry's... extremely sensitive area, would be because the magic comes from King's blood and so in a sense it's a venereally transmitted property. As such, the strongest source of the power would be in the organs most directly associated with reproduction.

 

Of course, this could be ridiculously over analysing a scene that was probably only included to get another naked chick in a scene!

[Terra Nova]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with that.  

I was talking about Show!Doran ^^ of course I agree with you about his book counterpart.

About the preview chapter

Arianne is sent to meet this Aegon and see if he's truly her cousin. No talk of marriage. Also, being legit would gain Dornish support anyway, no need to waste Aegon's hand. The cultural vacuum had a small musing about this: http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/127038628499/five-unfounded-assumptions-the-arianneaegon

[WSmith84]

I did think that maybe the reason for placing the leech in Gendry's... extremely sensitive area, would be because the magic comes from King's blood and so in a sense it's a venereally transmitted property. As such, the strongest source of the power would be in the organs most directly associated with reproduction.

 

Of course, this could be ridiculously over analysing a scene that was probably only included to get another naked chick in a scene!

 

I suppose that could be true. Though, given that in the show Balon Greyjoy is still up and kicking (and last King Standing of the War of the 5 Kings) perhaps it was Gendry's... sensitive area blood that did nothing. I'm inclined to believe the second suggestion though.

[mac123x]

Shimpy, I know you briefly mentioned the fact that the book was taking forever to reveal the second part of Cersei's prophesy, but I can't remember if you actually said if it has been revealed or not. I honestly didn't realize it took this long in the book. (And yes, this is me encouraging you to keep reading ... things do start to pick up plot wise toward the latter half of the book.)

 

Not to put words in Shimpy's keyboard, but I don't think she's there yet. 

The full prophecy is shown in a dream sequence that Cercei has after Marge has been arrested by the Faith.  It's one of Cercei's last chapters.  She's feeling on top of the world, so naturally her subconscious reminds her that things will go sour.

 

Regarding the Dorne plotline:  Book 5 & 6 spoiler 

Doran's plotting is revealed in AFFC, but there is another chapter in ADWD.  It's mostly set up and moving the pieces into place, giving the Sand Snakes their assignments.  The preview chapter for book 6 is the start of Arianne's journey north to check out Aegon.  Her code word to let her father know Aegon is for real and Dorne should support him is "dragons".  I don't know if that's supposed to mean "he literally has the dragons with him" or if it's supposed to be metaphorical "he really is a 'dragon' Targaryen."

[stillshimpy]

Hey!!! Guys? Something happened. The delight I feel cannot be overstated.

So Samwell's chapter, that contained the usual amount of Navel-Gazing-and-Damaging-Self-Talk resulted in some action.

I almost fell the hell over.

Sam bumped into Arya? Or the freaking agony of that moment. Arya six sentences away from finding out that Jon's alive, at The Wall, is the commander at the Wall and to really consider whether or not she is fully committed to being "No One" (although the answer to that is clearly "she's not fully committed" when she's calling herself "Cat.") . So that was fun in an agonizing way and it was kind of Arya to let Sam have the last clams.

Daeron was competing with both Gilly and Aemon for "who's going to be more annoying?" and he certainly won the day by the end there. Daeron: Winner of the most annoying walk-on character, who at least served a purpose, but for the life of me I can't place Xhondo. My note on that is literally "Who the hell is that?"

Aemon wasn't truly being annoying ,but that chapter contains prime examples of why someone should have unleashed a steely-eyed editor to trim the narrative fat. The number of times it is covered that Ameon is old, cold, dying, in need of food, not going to live much longer is repetitive on a row-row-row your boat level, with only some pauses in there to really fully cover how much of jackass Daeron really is and how he's promised to bring back food and wine (because Aemon is old, and cold, needs to be warm and fed).

But in amongst that was some interesting material. The healers with red hands and striped cloaks, once again, reminded me of Dany's Palace of Dust walkthrough, with the woman being assaulted by little rat men with red hands. So that was intriguing.

Easter Egg from the Dunk and Egg tales about how Maegon the Drippiest had an unfortunate rule and blamed killing his brother for his misfortune. Yes, that generally does do it.

Also, Aemon dreaming of the red comet and being so intrigued by the Dragons was interesting stuff too. So there was a hint of something interesting to come.

There's also an example of the kind of stuff the steely-eyed editor, with heart-of-stone and well honed editing blade would have done to death. Stuff that -- I'm being serious -- reminded me of a passage from Danielle Steel that we once read aloud in a book club, specifically so we could roar with laughter, pretty much unendingly. "She was tall. Like a tree. Like the tallest tree in the forest." only in this instance it was Sam sinking like a stone, a boulder and a mountain.

Great googly moogly, I wonder if Martin negotiated the sweetest deal ever in which he is paid by the word.

But that's good natured kvetching because ....something happened. I'm just darn near giddy. It's a pity that Sam's being so childish about Jon's sending off Mance Raydar's son to save the child's life. Seriously, I understand Gilly's weeping over the actual loss of her child, but Sam's reaction is that of a very young man, where he can't even begin to grasp why that was actually a brilliant thing to do and the best way to spare both babies.

Sam punching Daeron was one of the funner developments the book has had in ages. Also, Bravos is interesting, so the descriptions were fun too.

Back to the "but WHY did they have to use Gendry instead of Edric Storm?" ....because in the show they'd made such a huge ass deal out of the slaughter of Robert's bastard children. I know that also happened in the book, but it wasn't so screamingly obvious what they were doing, because they killed a handful of children...whereas in the Show they turned the dial up and had dozens of children killed in a complete bloodbath that caught everyone's attention. So Robert having an acknowledged, higher born bastard son was made less plausible.

Hell, for kind of a long time, after adding in the story about Cersei's first child, we had theories that Gendry was that child. Given the age of the actor, I'm at least a little intrigued by the possibility that we were meant to think that. But mostly, I think they just needed the near-sacrifice to be a character people cared about.

Also, the whole "But why the boobs??" because she's violating him as it is? When Davos talks to Gendry about what happened, he reveals that he's never actually had sex. Also, the show directly tied Melisandre's need to run off to find Gendry because "Stannis's fires burn low" (which is why she can't give him another "son"...in the show Stannis is very much aware that she's made a smoke assassin for him) so it is implied that there's some need for sexualized energy.

Plus, in the show, it's actually not clear that she was going to burn Gendry. Instead they generally seem to imply that Melisandre can basically screw someone with King's blood and spit out a Smoke Assassin. Season five

that was really implied with Melisandre and Jon when she tried to lap dance him too

.

In the show it's just made a lot more obvious that Stannis chooses to ignore really big red flags that Melisandre is just plain-old evil. The book seems to have a more agnostic position about Stannis's motives and what he knows. In the Show, he's really more in the know about a couple of things and whereas book Stannis really seems to believe he's the Warrior of Light and has some belief -- whether or not it is just the stuff of rationalizations for what he wants anyway -- that he is truly doing what is his actual duty to others.

Show Stannis just doesn't have that same kind of ambiguity to him. Basically I think the seduction and violation of Gendry makes sense with the story the show is telling.

Since the Show apparently just dropped The Brotherhood entirely that's probably why the felt they could just lift Gendry out of that story and not have it make a difference.

Besides, there is one thing I remember that I think might explain why the last we're ever likely to see of Gendry was his rowing the hell out of Showverse: People were starting to assign romantic inflections to Gendry's interactions with Arya. One of the times the Unsullied thread was breached over on TWoP and I was gladder than hell that someone did it (yes, that actually happened once....where I was all "Yay! Someone who shouldn't be in here, telling us something we shouldn't know! Yippee!" ) was when Gendry says to Arya, as he explains why he is joining the Brotherhood and leaving her. Arya says she would be his family and Gendry says in the real world, she would be his Lady. He clearly meant it as class distinction sort of thing, but it is carved in the digital stones of the internet that where there is an attractive young man, he will be 'shipped.

That's something they sort of clearly picked up on when it came to Grey Worm and changing the entire relationship between Grey Worm and Missandei. It doesn't even matter that Grey Worm is an actual eunuch. The show just went ahead and creating a ship for shippers to ship.

So anyway, a handful of people were trying to put a romantic spin on the "No. You would be my lady" as some declaration of a romantic intent. Someone came into thread and linked to an article or clip, or something (I didn't click it) but with the explanation that either the show-runner or the actor had confirmed that the line was about class distinction.

Just a long way of saying, "I think they did it because the show runners had more than picked up on the fact that there were elements in show fandom that thought the actor playing Gendry was hawt." So it was as much an excuse to get his shirt off, etc. Plus, I know this can be difficult for audiences of adaptations, but really, the kindest thing a show-runner can do for an actor who isn't going to be continuing in the story is to give them a nice, big range of scene types to fuel their career going forward.

They pretty clearly did exactly that for the actor playing Ros, even if it hasn't worked out for her yet. They likely were doing the same kind of "do your actor a solid and giving them material that shows range" ...so got to do some funny stuff (that scene with Davos was really pretty amusing) ...he got do some of the "shows natural physical chemistry" by starting to get his freak on. Then that was preceded by Gendry telling the only story that he ever really told anyone about much of anything: his somewhat scary childhood, bowls of brown, etc. So they gave him world-building, narrative material that was also poignant.

I guess I always tend to consider things from the casting and acting side as much as anything, because truly, my main reaction that to had next to nothing to do with Mel or "Jeez, there they go again with the HBO Breast Quota being met" and was more "that's a really decent thing to do for an actor's resume. Good on them."

I keep seeing D&D referred to in less than glowing terms, but they truly seem to treat their actors with a fair amount of respect, even when they aren't playing huge roles. Just speaks to a fair amount of respect for the concept of acting as an actual craft and art form.

ETA: I'm 53% of the way through the book -- although this ones text actually seems to end at the 92% mark ...judging by the George note...so more than halfway through by either measure and here's what I know about Maggy the Frog's prophecy:

That there was one. That Maggy was toothless. That Melara somehow betrayed Cersei in a matter that may or may not be related and is long dead (in what may or may not be related news) that the prophecy freaked Cersei out. That she firstthinks of it in relation to Tywin's funeral. That apparently Cersei was in love with, or fancied herself in love with the Wonder Twin Powers of Rhaegar's activated charm, or whatever.

And NOTHING about what the actual prophecy contained.

I'm not kidding you, this thing is like Godot thus far in the story. Lots of mention. No actual sightings.

Edited November 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

(although the answer to that is clearly "she's not fully committed" when she's calling herself "Cat."

Also, she picked 'Nymeria's as her father's ship in the little story she came up with while creating her new identity.

 

Also, Sansa too wanted to call herself 'Catelyn' after arriving in the Vale (that Alayne was Petyr's mother just adds another level of creepiness). There are a lot of parallels between the arcs of the two girls, and it's nice to have Starks remember their (sort of) dead relatives.

[Eegah]

The change in Arya's fake name is another of those weird bits where it's minor enough that it's not really worth getting upset over, but at the same time you have to wonder what the hell the point was. Though after all that stuff about how they had to change Asha's name or everyone would think she was Osha, I'm dying to find out if the Season 5 commentaries will have some writer or director saying they didn't want us to think Arya was being possessed by her mother or something.

[Terra Nova]

@Egah:

 

'Your sister of the canals'

 

(it's a joke born somewhere on Westeros.org - I don't remember who came up with that... JonCon'sRedBeard came up with SAtannis and someone else with Meli-sans-bra - anyway, a lot of people were upset for the change in Littlefinger's line from 'Only Cat' to 'your sister', so when people complained about the change in Arya's name someone else came up with the joke)

[ambi76]

Maegon the Drippiest

 

OMG, now I'll never be able to think about Maekar I elsewise. He was Stannis's great-great-grand father all right.

Edited November 20, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

I'm stopping mid-Jaime chapter, as the fate of Tyrek is pondered and Jaime fights Ser Ilyne Payne because they were just discussing Varys and something suddenly occurred to me:

Of all the incredibly weird things to make up and add into the show, Varys having a Sorcerer in Box to torture rates highest for me.

It was one of the weird inclusions in the show. We never found out what happened to Warlock/Wizard/Sorcerer in a box and I've just realized, "Wait, Varys is gone from Kings Landing....he's likely with Tyrion, I'm pretty sure I know where Tyrion is headed."

So they skipped all sorts of characters -- I'm reading about Brynden Tully being holed-up in Riverrun (and I bet I'm just going to be massively depressed by all the levels of hideous shit that are likely about to go down), they made Mace Tyrell into Swfyt for reasons I don't quite grasp.

But they just randomly threw in a story about Varys getting a hold of the Warlock/Meanie/Bad-Touch-Mummer to rain down upon like the Last Days of Pompeii?

That seems a weird choice.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I was okay with the sorcerer in the box because it painted Varys in a different light than they usually do. He is very much the "good guy" to Littlefinger's "bad guy" in the show. He always seemed a tad more sinister in the books, IMO.

For example, teaching children to read and write, and then cutting their tongues out to use as his "little birds."

 So I can actually imagine book Varys doing something like that too.

[ambi76]

they made Mace Tyrell into Swfyt for reasons I don't quite grasp.

 

This one is really chafing me of course. Because Swyft is a toady of the highest order and terrified of House Lannister since forever and Mace Tyrell is a pridefull vain braggart that wants to grow (ha!) beyond House Lannister. So they have absolutely nothing in common except their

Hand (haha!) job

and marrying their daughter into that House (for very different reasons). It's just that D&D wanted to actually cover Swyft's story and have axed Mace's, small as it is

'cause no (F)Aegon

.

Edited November 20, 2015 by ambi76

[Alayne Stone]

Yeah, really don't get what the point was of changing Arya's name from "Cat" of the Canals to ... whatever it was in the show. I can't even remember. I would bet that most show viewers wouldn't have even really got the connection of her using her mother's nickname because you never really hear "Cat" used much in the show.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

That was me for much of season 5.

 

I love the little parallels between Arya and Sansa in book 4. I never noticed it until someone else pointed it out but you really do have the both of them trying hard to shed their Stark identities but never fully being able to do it.

 

I think the wizard in a box thing is generally regarded as something that "stays true to the character" of Varys. Like someone above me already said, Varys is very much painted as a "genuinely cares for the good of the realm" whereas he is clearly more problematic in the books.

 

Yessss, we are about to get to the Riverlands plot! I bet Shimpy will be pleasantly surprised by all the bad stuff that *doesn't* go down there like she expects. She'll get Blackfish's triumphant escape for one.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[mac123x]

but for the life of me I can't place Xhondo. My note on that is literally "Who the hell is that?"

 

Xhondo saw Dany and her dragons while she was in Qarth back in Clash of Kings.  He's the one who brought her news of Robert Baratheon's death.  The Cinnamon Wind seems to trade all over the world.

 

Correction:  That wasn't Xhondo, but it was Quhuru Mo, the captain of the Cinnamon Wind.  Evidently the rest of the crew went to see the dragons also.

Edited November 20, 2015 by mac123x

[Lavignac]

Back to the "but WHY did they have to use Gendry instead of Edric Storm?" ....because in the show they'd made such a huge ass deal out of the slaughter of Robert's bastard children. I know that also happened in the book, but it wasn't so screamingly obvious what they were doing, because they killed a handful of children...whereas in the Show they turned the dial up and had dozens of children killed in a complete bloodbath that caught everyone's attention. So Robert having an acknowledged, higher born bastard son was made less plausible.

 

...

Besides, there is one thing I remember that I think might explain why the last we're ever likely to see of Gendry was his rowing the hell out of Showverse: People were starting to assign romantic inflections to Gendry's interactions with Arya. One of the times the Unsullied thread was breached over on TWoP and I was gladder than hell that someone did it (yes, that actually happened once....where I was all "Yay! Someone who shouldn't be in here, telling us something we shouldn't know! Yippee!" ) was when Gendry says to Arya, as he explains why he is joining the Brotherhood and leaving her. Arya says she would be his family and Gendry says in the real world, she would be his Lady. He clearly meant it as class distinction sort of thing, but it is carved in the digital stones of the internet that where there is an attractive young man, he will be 'shipped.

That's something they sort of clearly picked up on when it came to Grey Worm and changing the entire relationship between Grey Worm and Missandei. It doesn't even matter that Grey Worm is an actual eunuch. The show just went ahead and creating a ship for shippers to ship.

So anyway, a handful of people were trying to put a romantic spin on the "No. You would be my lady" as some declaration of a romantic intent. Someone came into thread and linked to an article or clip, or something (I didn't click it) but with the explanation that either the show-runner or the actor had confirmed that the line was about class distinction.

Just a long way of saying, "I think they did it because the show runners had more than picked up on the fact that there were elements in show fandom that thought the actor playing Gendry was hawt." So it was as much an excuse to get his shirt off, etc. Plus, I know this can be difficult for audiences of adaptations, but really, the kindest thing a show-runner can do for an actor who isn't going to be continuing in the story is to give them a nice, big range of scene types to fuel their career going forward.

A) Gendry VS Edric

Remember that Edric Storm was kept first in Storm's End, then on Dragonstone, neither of which were in Lannister control at the time of the King Herod-like massacre. Would it have been too complex for casual TV audiences to have understood, or at least accepting that? I don't think it would have registered on many viewers' radar: Edric would have appeared only in season 3 when the massacre was in season 1. Thus, I discount (but all bastards were massacred!" as a reason for cutting Edric from the TV show. I believe it has much more to do with simplifying the cast, re-using the well-known and well-liked Gendry. It's just unfortunate that they had to convolute the jet-pack-travelling plot and character-assassinate the Brotherhood Without Banners to do so!

 

B) "... You'd be my Lady"

 

I disagree that the line's intent was perfectly clear. As a book-reader, I myself wondered what the intent was when I heard that line, I re-listened to the scene several times to perceive the inflection and nonverbal postures, and I participated in discussing it on the internet. Did the writers want to infuse some ideas of romanticism there? Not likely, but not impossible. That would have been intriguing. Different 'Shippers existed in the ASOIAF fandom long before the show came on: Ashara & Ned. Lyanna & Rhaegar. "San-San". Book-fueled ships are not necessarily the same as the show-fueled ones, depending on age ajustements, physical appearance and how some scenes play out. An example I have in mind comes up in book 5:

Bran and Meera

[bobbybuilderton]

I keep seeing D&D referred to in less than glowing terms, but they truly seem to treat their actors with a fair amount of respect, even when they aren't playing huge roles. Just speaks to a fair amount of respect for the concept of acting as an actual craft and art form.

it's funny that you would say that, because there was a bit of drama regarding an actor for season five. But we can get to that when we get to it. Just know that a lot of people who talk about them in a scathing tone do so because of things they say that don't exactly paint them in a good light. Themes are for eighth grade book reports, ya know.

[Delta1212]

A) Gendry VS Edric

Remember that Edric Storm was kept first in Storm's End, then on Dragonstone, neither of which were in Lannister control at the time of the King Herod-like massacre. Would it have been too complex for casual TV audiences to have understood, or at least accepting that? I don't think it would have registered on many viewers' radar: Edric would have appeared only in season 3 when the massacre was in season 1. Thus, I discount (but all bastards were massacred!" as a reason for cutting Edric from the TV show. I believe it has much more to do with simplifying the cast, re-using the well-known and well-liked Gendry. It's just unfortunate that they had to convolute the jet-pack-travelling plot and character-assassinate the Brotherhood Without Banners to do so!

B) "... You'd be my Lady"

I disagree that the line's intent was perfectly clear. As a book-reader, I myself wondered what the intent was when I heard that line, I re-listened to the scene several times to perceive the inflection and nonverbal postures, and I participated in discussing it on the internet. Did the writers want to infuse some ideas of romanticism there? Not likely, but not impossible. That would have been intriguing. Different 'Shippers existed in the ASOIAF fandom long before the show came on: Ashara & Ned. Lyanna & Rhaegar. "San-San". Book-fueled ships are not necessarily the same as the show-fueled ones, depending on age ajustements, physical appearance and how some scenes play out. An example I have in mind comes up in book 5:

Bran and Meera

I'm not sure how much that qualifies since it isn't really a "book-fueled ship" in the same way that the others are. It's more of a canon sub-plot in the books that was just dropped from the show.

[ImpinAintEasy]

it's funny that you would say that, because there was a bit of drama regarding an actor for season five. But we can get to that when we get to it. Just know that a lot of people who talk about them in a scathing tone do so because of things they say that don't exactly paint them in a good light. Themes are for eighth grade book reports, ya know.

 

 

Oh God, are you talking about the actor who plays Barristan writing a letter begging not to be killed off, and D&D mentioning that it made them want to do it more? I side with the showrunners on that one. It's their show. They can write it the way they want to. Yes, the actor read the books and was looking forward to having more to do, but this is one of the main reasons many of the actors choose not to read the books in the first place. The scripts are their bible, as they should be. You can say D&D were unprofessional in mentioning it, but they never said who the actor was. It was the actor who came out and put his name to it. It was the actor who came out looking bad, IMO. Barristan was never more than a tertiary character in the show, and even in the books, until ADWD, when he became the Slaver's Bay version of Areo Hotah. I don't think this story contradicts any of what Shimpy said.

[WSmith84]

Oh God, are you talking about the actor who plays Barristan writing a letter begging not to be killed off, and D&D mentioning that it made them want to do it more? I side with the showrunners on that one. It's their show. They can write it the way they want to. Yes, the actor read the books and was looking forward to having more to do, but this is one of the main reasons many of the actors choose not to read the books in the first place. The scripts are their bible, as they should be. You can say D&D were unprofessional in mentioning it, but they never said who the actor was. It was the actor who came out and put his name to it. It was the actor who came out looking bad, IMO. Barristan was never more than a tertiary character in the show, and even in the books, until ADWD, when he became the Slaver's Bay version of Areo Hotah. I don't think this story contradicts any of what Shimpy said.

 

Well there was that and the recasting of Myrcella, where the actress basically found out she was out of a job the same way as everyone else, with no phonecall or anything. And given that her acting was fine in the earlier seasons, and season 5 required no special acting talent for Myrcella, it was a very bizarre decision. I think Selmy's actor didn't get a 'we're going to kill you off' talk either, which he was rather annoyed about.

[WindyNights]

And then there was what happened between D&D and the actress for Shae.

[Terra Nova]

What happened with Sibel Kekilli? Unless you're talking about

her not wanting Shae to throw Sansa under the bus like a catty money-grabber

 

Anyway, there's another actor who said something troubling about D&D some months ago

Iain Glen saying they actively discourage actors from reading the books and having a glazed look everytime someone mention them... mark my words, Jorah is going to bite it the upcoming season, and this is Glen starting to spill the beans since he's done with the show already.

 

 

@Alayne:

it was Lanna (or Lana, Maisie Williams sort of muttered the name and as a non native speaker I can't tell the difference), which ironically is a name fit for Lannister bastards  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, the parallels between Sansa and Arya go back to book 1, in my opinion: both in the end got what they dreamed of, with a twist: Sansa discovered her prince charming was the very monster of the story, his 'valiant' knights thugs and lickspittles. Arya got the great adventure she wanted, with swordfights and the freedom of doing whatever she wanted, without all those pesky privileges of nobility... in a war zone.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

Well there was that and the recasting of Myrcella, where the actress basically found out she was out of a job the same way as everyone else, with no phonecall or anything. And given that her acting was fine in the earlier seasons, and season 5 required no special acting talent for Myrcella, it was a very bizarre decision. I think Selmy's actor didn't get a 'we're going to kill you off' talk either, which he was rather annoyed about.

 

No offense to the actress, but she was basically no more than a featured extra in the 2 seasons she appeared in. I'm not positive, but I believe she re-auditioned for the role in season 5. I can see a number of reasons she was replaced, not the least of which is that she matured a lot and does not resemble Lena Headey at all anymore. This has little to do with what Shimpy had to say, and is creeping towards what I consider to be the worst part of the fandom, which looks to demonize the showrunners in any way possible, beyond just criticizing their adaptation choices or writing.

[ImpinAintEasy]

What happened with Sibel Kekilli? Unless you're talking about

her not wanting Shae to throw Sansa under the bus like a catty money-grabber

 

Anyway, there's another actor who said something troubling about D&D some months ago

Iain Glen saying they actively discourage actors from reading the books and having a glazed look everytime someone mention them... mark my words, Jorah is going to bite it the upcoming season, and this is Glen starting to spill the beans since he's done with the show already.

 

 

@Alayne:

it was Lanna (or Lana, Maisie Williams sort of muttered the name and as a non native speaker I can't tell the difference), which ironically is a name fit for Lannister bastards  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, the parallels between Sansa and Arya go back to book 1, in my opinion: both in the end got what they dreamed of, with a twist: Sansa discovered her prince charming was the very monster of the story, his 'valiant' knights thugs and lickspittles. Arya got the great adventure she wanted, with swordfights and the freedom of doing whatever she wanted, without all those pesky privileges of nobility... in a war zone.

 

After what happened with the actor who plays Selmy, it's not surprising that they would start to discourage the actors from reading the books. It wasn't this way in the first 3-4 seasons, when the difference between page and screen wasn't so drastically different.

 

In regards to the actress who plays Shae, I actually agreed with her about how show Shae betraying Sansa made absolutely zero sense. It's been mentioned before, but the show has a way of circling back around to the book plot for certain characters, even when it doesn't mesh with the way they were written in the show. But then again, I can't imagine any actress would enjoy playing book Shae, so I doubt Sibel has any ill will towards D&D.

She is even going to appear in season 6, hopefully in nothing more than a hallucination.

Edited November 20, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[WSmith84]

Back on topic: I'm glad that you've finally got to the more plot advancing half of the story, shimpy. The first half really does drag its feet in many aspects, so it's nice to see something actually happen. Sam chapters, while infrequent, always feel a lot longer than they have any need to be in Feast. I love the city of Braavos (it's the only place in Essos that feels as organic as Westeros to me) and really enjoy that Sam just loses his rag with Daeron and punches him. Btw, you haven't met Xhondo before, but you have met someone he knows.

[Haleth]

About Braavos, what do you all think? The first time I read it I was picturing Venice but the show and a later read made me think Amsterdam. Any thoughts?

[bobbybuilderton]

No offense to the actress, but she was basically no more than a featured extra in the 2 seasons she appeared in. I'm not positive, but I believe she re-auditioned for the role in season 5. I can see a number of reasons she was replaced, not the least of which is that she matured a lot and does not resemble Lena Headey at all anymore. This has little to do with what Shimpy had to say, and is creeping towards what I consider to be the worst part of the fandom, which looks to demonize the showrunners in any way possible, beyond just criticizing their adaptation choices or writing.

It has plenty to do with what shimpy said, as the original comment was that they treat their actors with respect. We are talking about these incidents because they indicate the opposite. Wanting to kill a character even more because someone tries to give constructive criticism isn't respectful, it's childish. Recasting someone with no notice based off of something like their looks isn't respectful, it's shallow and pretty unprofessional. They should be demonized in my opinion because they do and say a lot of shitty things.

[ImpinAintEasy]

It has plenty to do with what shimpy said, as the original comment was that they treat their actors with respect. We are talking about these incidents because they indicate the opposite. Wanting to kill a character even more because someone tries to give constructive criticism isn't respectful, it's childish. Recasting someone with no notice based off of something like their looks isn't respectful, it's shallow and pretty unprofessional. They should be demonized in my opinion because they do and say a lot of shitty things.

First, I'm positive the "made us want to kill him more" was mostly in jest. Second, an actor who plays a tertiary character, and is in no way integral to the production, sending a letter telling the writers why they are wrong about killing said tertiary character and requesting that they don't is incredibly disrespectful and unprofessional. But it's no use to argue over positions we simply disagree on.

Sorry for cluttering the thread with off-topic posts. Once you're caught up, you'll better understand some of the schisms that have been created within the fandom, Shimpy.

[Alayne Stone]

If I recall correctly, Maise even said that she was playing that "You could be my family" line with the intent of it being "I love you" behind it. Or ... she was directed in such a manner. So I do believe that scene was intended to pander on some level to Arya/Gendry shippers.

 

And they exist amongst book fans too, though I think mostly in a "if they should meet again down the line"/endgame sort of scenario.

 

I suppose my next comment contains a book 6 spoiler, but it's one you'd already know if you've seen the Inside the Episode for Season 5, Episode 9. I just wanted to give a heads up in case there is anyone out there who deliberately avoids those.

 

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree about how the show creators have treated Ian and Aimee, just to name a few actors. I thought the manner in which they brought up Ian's letter was incredibly distasteful. But that's neither here nor there. Confirming that Shireen's burning happens in a book that has yet to be published? That is completely unprofessional, especially considering the leak that happened for the first four episodes of season 5. They bend over backwards to prevent spoilers from getting leaked about their show, so why not give the creator of the book series you are adapting the same respect?

Edited November 21, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[ImpinAintEasy]

I definately agree that them covering their asses by saying "when George told us this was going to happen" was weaselly. They should have just owned up to doing it and left it at that. Are they going to do that with every other controversial scene they do now? "Well George says this is going to happen in the books..."  Anyway, enough about the showrunners. 

 

 

I loved the ending to the Jaime chapter Shimpy is reading. People like to talk about "shipping" this character or that character, but the only two I ship are(spoiler if you haven't finished the chapter)

Jaime and Brienne. So I let out an audible cheer when Jaime clocked Red Ronnet with his golden hand for insulting Brienne.

[Alayne Stone]

Awww, I love that part too!

 

Spoiler in relation to the end of the Jaime chapter Shimpy is currently on ...

The closest thing to a "ship" I have is Brienne and Hyle Hunt. But I do enjoy Brienne/Jaime as well. And I'm pretty sure I cheered out loud when Jaime clocked him too!

[magdalene]

If I ship anybody in this universe it's 

Jaime and Brienne, yes. It's the way their thoughts always return to each other with high regard despite their physical separation. The way that each will defend the other against insults, etc.

 

My thoughts on Jaime have gone through these stages:

 

What a bastard. Incest, ick.

Hmm, Jaime is kind of an interesting asshole.

Omg, I feel sorry for Jaime.

Huh, I kind of like Jaime now.

 

This is the part of the story where I started to love Jaime pretty straight forwardly. 

[Dev F]

If I recall correctly, Maise even said that she was playing that "You could be my family" line with the intent of it being "I love you" behind it. Or ... she was directed in such a manner. So I do believe that scene was intended to pander on some level to Arya/Gendry shippers.

 

I dunno, I think it's clear that show!Arya is supposed to have romantic feelings for Gendry -- there's also that scene in season 2 where he's working the forge at Harrenhal with his shirt off and Arya keeps awkwardly checking him out -- but I don't see what makes that pandering and not merely an interesting bit of character shading. It's not like they've ever suggested that Gendry reciprocates or that they'll end up being the One True Pairing of Westeros.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Dev F

[Ashara Payne]

That might have been Maiaie awkwardly checking him out!

[Haleth]

The shipping of Arya and Gendry makes my skin crawl.  She's a little girl!  What, 11 in the book and 12 in the show?  Romantic feelings on his part would be creepy and Arya has never given boys a second thought.  If anything their (brief) relationship was turning them into pseudo siblings, with the teasing and wrestling, until he learned her identity.

[Terra Nova]

I think no sane person would ship them at the moment of Clash and Storm; I guess most would like for them to meet again after few years, with the yucky factor well behind them. But in the show I think Arya already hit puberty at that point, so it's not unrealistic for her to have some crush/puppy love for Gendry.

 

Just like most of SanSan shippers would have liked a relationship between a late teen Sansa and a calmer, sober Sandor... if only he didn't decide to get drunk like a dog upon hearing of her marriage!

tee hee hee

[bobbybuilderton]

Well an amusing thing I've seen suggested is that when Robert says to Ned "I have a son. You have a daughter." with regards to Joffrey and Sansa marrying, it was meant to refer to Gendry and Arya. I think that makes no sense because how would Gendry ever be legitimized? Or maybe Arya marries whoever she damn well pleases. I have no idea, but I don't buy the theory

[dragonbone]

Maisie said in multiple interviews she had an actual crush on Joe Dempsey. She also said she was asked to play it that way on screen. From an interview with Vulture:

 

What do you think about Arya and Gendry shippers? Could that happen?
In the second season, they wanted me to hint at it a little bit. I think she does kind of … I mean, I don’t know if she’s old enough to really know what it is she’s feeling, but she knows she really cares about this guy.

 

 

Actually I think this is a great ship for once Arya is bit older.