Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

Haven't read the last few replies so not sure if someone mentioned this but Maggy isn't the Ghost of High Heart (Arya's crone). She's actually, if I recall correctly Spoiler

yup.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Haleth

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, the Unsullied did not speculate on who the younger Queen could have been?

 

That's one part of the prophesy that book readers speculate over. It explains Cersei's treatment of Sansa, and then of course there is the Queen in the East who is in the greatest position to bring Cersei down.

 

As someone who has never read the Dunk & Egg novelas, I have to say that even when I was completely and utterly in the dark about their content ... I found the description of that shield to be very important. It stuck out to me for whatever reason. So the idea that Brienne could be a descendant of Dunk makes sense to me.

 

More Dunk & Egg speculation:

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that Dunk might have been involved with one of Egg's ... sisters? Were they his sisters? There were two female Targaryens mentioned in spoiler tags earlier and people were suggestion he might have had an affair with one of them, and then she was married off to a Tarth to cover the illegitimate birth because a pregnant Targaryen would still have been fortuitous for the relatively minor Tarth House.

 

I love the burning of the Tower of the Hand chapter. That would have made for a wonderful spectacle in the show and I wish it had been included. Also, Asha is one of my favorite new POVs from the books.

 

And ... the Arianne/Arys chapter! I hate to admit it, but that chapter is such a guilty pleasure for me. And Arianne's plans for Myrcella are indeed revealed to be very different from the direction the show took.

[nksarmi]

Yes it's a shame they dumbed Dorne down to season five:

kill the girl!

when it was so deliciously complex.  They all wanted vengeance but they had several different ideas on how to get it. 

 

And yea while I do think Marg is the YMBQ of the prophesy- its interesting that the show didn't inspire the kind of debates the books have - my guess

Yes it's a shame they dumbed Dorne down to season five:

kill the girl!

when it was so deliciously complex.  They all wanted vengeance but they had several different ideas on how to get it. 

 

And yea while I do think Marg is the YMBQ of the prophesy- its interesting that the show didn't inspire the kind of debates the books have - my guess is because of how different show Marg is from book Marg.

[WindyNights]

Honestly the

YMBQ could be Arianne especially since she's probably going to ally with YG and take down the Lannisters.

not that I think it's her.

Also eeeeh on

Arianne wanting revenge. Arianne and Dorne's plot isn't about revenge. The real story is about a daughter that is afraid of her birthright being taken away from her by her father and there two people being unable to communicate with each other.

[Terra Nova]

"Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel"

A wheel of... time?

James Rigney is better known by his pen name Robert Jordan.

 

There's also a House Jordayne in the books, whose sigil is a quill, the words are 'Let it be written!' and the stronghold is The Tor (Tor being Jordan's publisher).

 

ETA: and the current Lord is Trebor (Robert backwards) XD good thing I checked on the wikia.

 

I've fallen a little bit behind with the re-read, still have to catch up with yesterday chapters ^^'

 

ETA 2: I also liked how in the Arys chapter it's clear how Arianne is pained by the letter she found when she was a young girl. I mean, it's clear that she's trying to manipulate Arys into helping her, but she tries all the usual tricks ('I'm jealous, you don't love me for real, we can get married'...) before confessing about her father and the letter. It always struck me as Arianne having some dignity

compared to Cersei's attempts with the Kettleblacks X( Cersei's not that proficient in using the weapon between her legs, despite all her boasting

 

@WindyNights:

I see you subscribing to the GotGifs&musings and TheCulturalVacuum school of thought :) after Shimpy's done with the books she should  read some of their retrospective/snarks

Edited November 7, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

Yeah, Cersei's prophecy is a "drip-drip-drip" thing on purpose in the books. Funny that almost nobody remembers that afterwards (me included after my first read).

 

As for Dunk's shield on Tarth.

 

...because people generally don't put the shields of their illegitimate ancestry on the walls, Ambi.

 

 

On purpose, no. But Brienne doesn't now what it means, her father may not know what it means. A few generations have passed. Could be great-grand-ma kept it like a love letter and it was later discoverd in the attic. Looks pretty, so up the wall it goes. I for one like the illegitimate possibility better than Dunk the tragic widower, but that's just me.

 

ETA: Nothing too exciting about Melara Heatherspoon so far. She is just Cersei's "Jeyne Poole like" friend of those days. The Unsullied thinking she could be Lyanna was driving me bonkers though, that the show didn't even give her a name.

Edited November 7, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, the Unsullied did not speculate on who the younger Queen could have been?

Not really, because....Margaery.

[Protar]

Not really, because....Margaery.

 

A lot of people think that's a red herring. I mean it's a little obvious to be Margaery. Not impossible though.

[Haleth]

I think it means Dany, someone not even on Cersei's radar.  She clearly believes it to be Margaery which automatically means she's wrong. :)

[WindyNights]

It won't be Daenerys. I'm absolutely certainly of that.

Reason being that Cersei

would already be finished by the time Dany gets there.

[Avaleigh]

I think it means Dany, someone not even on Cersei's radar.  She clearly believes it to be Margaery which automatically means she's wrong. :)

That's where I come down on it. Cersei is so rarely right about anything that I'd be shocked if it turned out to be Margaery. I actually think Margaery has the least chance. I think Sansa is easily the most likely with Dany being second.

Prior to season 5 I thought Arianne was a candidate as well. Myrcella I considered until the end of AFFC.

[chandraReborn]

I think the reason people speculate about the younger, more beautiful queen is that Margery in the show is shown to be scheming directly against Cersei, but in the books, Margery's behavior is more ambiguous. 

[magdalene]

I used to think the younger queen was Dany but I think now it's Sansa. Because Cersei  has a personal and abusive history with Sansa.  They know each other.  It just is more satisfying if it's Sansa.

Edited November 8, 2015 by magdalene

[nksarmi]

I originally thought Dany but then started wondering if it was in fact Marg and it was essentially a self-fulfilling prophesy.  I just love that there are about a half dozen candidates being debated by readers and the unsullied just took it at face value that it was Marg.

[chandraReborn]

I think it could even be 

Myrcella, who's dead on the show.

[Avaleigh]

I think it could even be 

Myrcella, who's dead on the show.

Even with the scarred face? I thought the implication is that she's no longer beautiful. Add in her early death on the show and to me that suggests it won't be her.

[Delta1212]

My theory is that the show changed the identity of the younger queen to Loras. It explains everything they did with his character.

[Hecate7]

Even with the scarred face? I thought the implication is that she's no longer beautiful. Add in her early death on the show and to me that suggests it won't be her.

 

She can still take all Cersei holds dear, and she was beautiful once, and will always be younger. But I hope it IS Loras.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Hecate7

[bobbybuilderton]

My theory is that the show changed the identity of the younger queen to Loras. It explains everything they did with his character.

fringed. sleeves.

[Lavignac]

Fringed sleeves? I remember the funny misunderstanding on the Unsullied thread when someone heard French Sleeves...

[stillshimpy]

I originally thought Dany but then started wondering if it was in fact Marg and it was essentially a self-fulfilling prophesy. I just love that there are about a half dozen candidates being debated by readers and the unsullied just took it at face value that it was Marg.

It makes sense to me now that readers and fandom debated it, because Margaery in the books is just a pleasant pile of looks and hair, with no known personality. In the show though, Margaery is all "Now let's get one thing straight, I am GOING TO BE QUEEN, I don't care how many piles of bones comprised of former, failed King husbands it takes, but I so totally going to be the damned Queen. If it involves seducing near children, sure, I'm up for that. I'll just bleach my brain and pray to the Seven, the four, the none or the Apple of Fiona for forgiveness after I have produced an heir and secured my place as Queen."

Season five spoiler

Plus, she has this flashback on the way to Marg's wedding to Tommen, so really the ambiguity of "Who could it be?!?" was just not present in the show.

Also, as for thinking Melara was Lyanna Stark, well that one made sense too. It didn't make a butt load of sense that they would show a flashback with a complete Rando in there for set dressing.

Okay, back to reading for a while. I'm going to admit that this book has a pacing issue. I'm a third of the way through and pretty much, nothing has happened of any import. Long first act on this one.

[Triskan]

I know what you mean, but on reread, Feast fearures quite its share of really strong moments !

 

Give a shout when you read the next Sam chapter ! ;)

[Delta1212]

I think that comparative lack of plot progress is why I'm enjoying this re-read so much more than the first read (which I didn't hate, but did feel like it was dragging at parts).

I'm not going to say it's s case of lowered expectations, exactly. I just already know what does (and doesn't) happen, so I'm focused less on waiting for the story to get moving and more on the process. Storm of Swords is very much a "destination" book and this one is more of a "journey" book. It's easier to enjoy the scenery when you can let go of some of the impatience with getting where you're going.

(Not that the impatience isn't justified, but since I know exactly what I'm getting into, I think it's easier to enjoy what this particular book is offering up)

[Avaleigh]

I know what you mean, but on reread, Feast fearures quite its share of really strong moments !

 

Give a shout when you read the next Sam chapter ! ;)

Oh dear, we aren't at the fat pink mast already, are we?

[Triskan]

Nope, not yet, I'm talking about the second Sam chapter,

where Aemon tell tales of Duncan and old times and where Sam realizes the baby switch.

;)

[Alayne Stone]

It makes sense to me now that readers and fandom debated it, because Margaery in the books is just a pleasant pile of looks and hair, with no known personality. In the show though, Margaery is all "Now let's get one thing straight, I am GOING TO BE QUEEN, I don't care how many piles of bones comprised of former, failed King husbands it takes, but I so totally going to be the damned Queen. If it involves seducing near children, sure, I'm up for that. I'll just bleach my brain and pray to the Seven, the four, the none or the Apple of Fiona for forgiveness after I have produced an heir and secured my place as Queen."

Season five spoiler

Plus, she has this flashback on the way to Marg's wedding to Tommen, so really the ambiguity of "Who could it be?!?" was just not present in the show.

Also, as for thinking Melara was Lyanna Stark, well that one made sense too. It didn't make a butt load of sense that they would show a flashback with a complete Rando in there for set dressing.

Okay, back to reading for a while. I'm going to admit that this book has a pacing issue. I'm a third of the way through and pretty much, nothing has happened of any import. Long first act on this one.

 

Funny, if I had not read that very first paragraph with the name "Margaery" in it, I would have thought you were quoting book Cersei. ;)

 

There's a reason for that complete rando which you will one day figure out. The show did not follow up on her.

 

I also forgot that the prophesy was broken up into parts so I am glad someone had mentioned that or I would have accidentally spoiled it myself. I'm very much here for the younger Queen being Loras in the show in the end though.

 

Shimpy, could you maybe just give a brief rundown of everyone's locations currently in the books so we don't unintentionally bring up something we are not supposed to? And if there has been any progress with certain storylines like the Kingsmoot and the Dorne plot?

 

I suppose I shouldn't call it Queenmaker plot just yet since that's the title of an Arianne chapter she probably hasn't gotten to yet, right?

Edited November 8, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Lady S.]

 

I also forgot that the prophesy was broken up into parts so I am glad someone had mentioned that or I would have accidentally spoiled it myself. I'm very much here for the younger Queen being Loras in the show in the end though.

I really hope you meant Marg there.

[bobbybuilderton]

I think that comparative lack of plot progress is why I'm enjoying this re-read so much more than the first read (which I didn't hate, but did feel like it was dragging at parts).

I'm not going to say it's s case of lowered expectations, exactly. I just already know what does (and doesn't) happen, so I'm focused less on waiting for the story to get moving and more on the process. Storm of Swords is very much a "destination" book and this one is more of a "journey" book. It's easier to enjoy the scenery when you can let go of some of the impatience with getting where you're going.

(Not that the impatience isn't justified, but since I know exactly what I'm getting into, I think it's easier to enjoy what this particular book is offering up)

Pretty much this. I've already mentioned it but that book is significantly better on a second read. As is the fifth, IMO

[stillshimpy]

Poor Brienne's chapters do lag because it's just difficult to read someone, with such good intentions, being duped so easily. I was cringing through that entire exchange with Nimble Prick. Since we absolutely know she's being taken in, it's actually hard to read. In the game of "warmer, warmer...no...you're getting cold, colder...colder still..." Brienne is in the arctic zone and drilling ever deeper into a polar cap. Argh.

So there's Sam's dad. He seems beastly and cold. So you know, pretty much par for the Papa Course in Westeros thus far.

Sam's chapter with the Skagos (are those the Stone Men?) was interesting, but contained quite the gobsmacker. Poor Gilly having to leave her baby behindto help protect Mance's son. I did wonder what in the world was supposed to be wrong with her that she was crying just ceaselessly. So that was part of Jon's plan? Poor Sam. That would feel like a terrible betrayal and ...really kind of was. Plus, my immediate thought was "Oh shit, that means White Walkers are going to try to get Gilly's actual, real baby. Dammit, Jon!"

 

Shimpy, could you maybe just give a brief rundown of everyone's locations currently in the books so we don't unintentionally bring up something we are not supposed to?

Okay, I'll try. Sam's still on a ship, they haven't reached Bravos yet and Aemon, rather ominously given other events, has uttered the line, "Egg, I dreamed I was old"...so sounds like he's off to a wedding in the land invisible soon.

Uh...Brienne just got taken in by that guy, Nimble Dick (Prick, whatever) and is off to a Smuggler's Cove, presumably where he'll try to do all manner of terrible things to her and will at least likely get away with all her money.

Who else? Yeah, just starting a Jaime chapter. Last one he was contemplating the ripe old corpse of his father.

Sansa's in the Eyrie, alarmingly trying to convince herself that in some ways she's now Robert's mother and that Would-Be Rapist and Murder Accomplice is paying for it with various orbs and digits.

Arya met up with the kindly old man, after he ditched the grave mask, and I was left doubting how long he'd remain kindly. I know that Jon, Tyrion and somebody else....Dany I think....don't show up in this book at all, so I'm trying to think who else has wandered by in the tale. Asha was hanging out with her bookish Uncle and getting ready for something called a Kingsmoot, which I think is really just George R. R. Martin getting officially carried the hell away with his world-building, but at least she's more interesting than Dumbhair.

Edited November 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lavignac]

Ooooh the baby switch. Now you see why some people were heavy-handed in mentioning interest/importance of Mance's women, Val and Dalla, and their absence from the show.

Season five:

When Karsi was seen at Hardhome (and in casting at the time of filming) Many reader fans were hoping that she was somehow a transformed reappearance of Val... But nope, her death put an end to the speculation!

 

You've already read it, but now you may re-read Sam's last chapter with Jon having that switch in mind! ".... The things I do for #duty#!"

 

Edit: Oh the Dumbhair, Nimble Prick and your other nicknames crack me up!

Edited November 8, 2015 by Lavignac

[stillshimpy]

Heh, no that's okay. I'm not Jon's biggest fan as it is. No need to challenge that.

Poor Sam, I almost wish Aemon hadn't told him, he wasn't doing Sam any favors in doing so.

[Lavignac]

Sorry, I'm just saying' you will have fun someday in your reading if you keep in mind Jon and Sam's parting scene, even though your character distaste might make you push it out of memory.

 

To experienced readers:

When I re-read books 4 and 5 together with the recommended mix-up of chapters, seeing that same scene from Jon and Sam's opposing points of view one right after the other, it blew my mind, with the secrets they keep from each other!

Edited November 8, 2015 by Lavignac

[ImpinAintEasy]

So we also learned in that Sam chapter that Aemon joined the Night's Watch along with Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, former Hand Of The King and suspected sorcerer, who for some reason was being held in the dungeons of the Red Keep. And we know that he became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch as well. 

 

I'll be interested to see if you muster any interest in the Kingsmoot, Shimpy.

I doubt it. Wait tell she meets Victarion "Beat My Wife To Death" Greyjoy.

 Try and contain your excitement, but you get to meet Balon's 2 other brothers. I don't think they are as boring as Damphair, particularly the Crow's Eye, but they are still Ironborn.

[Terra Nova]

Re-reading some of Randyll Tarly's enlightened quotes is beautiful, truly:

"The blame is yours [...] If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one."

 

Also, for book readers only:

Shimpy: nah, not interested in reading that chapter again. Book readers *evil grins everywhere*

 

I think it's important to have the right mind-set when approaching Feast: the last book ended with a climax of action, revelations and deaths. This one deals with the aftermath of the past three books, while starting moving around pieces for the next act.

Linda (of Westeros.org) actually said that she was thankful for the five years gap being eventually discarded, if anything because now we have the chance of seeing 'real time' the Dornish reacting to Oberyn's death, which actually works much better than 'oh, remember five years ago, people were raving in the streets! They threw stuff at their Prince! I had to lock up my bastard nieces in a tower, oh oh oh!' (clearly, other parts really suffer in pacing and seem to drag a lot)

Clearly, the pacing won't be momentous like in the second half of Storm - though a point could be made that the whole Storm is a giant third act, and actually on re-read I would even dare say that in some regards Storm is even too hasty. It just goes like *boom, boom, boom*. That's one of the reasons, I think, why the revelation of Bran's attempted assassination is easily overlooked, or why some parts of the fandom found it underwhelming and keep coming up with other (mostly wild) theories.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

This is the first time I'm re-reading AFFC without combining it chronologically with ADWD, and while it is easier to read knowing what to expect, it still is far less enjoyable than when it is combined with ADWD. One thing I'll say about my re-reads, I have found myself actually starting to enjoy the Ironborn chapters more and the Dornish chapters less. I was never a big fan of either, though I do like Asha and Doran, but I really don't like Arianne, and it took my current re-read to finally move from ambivalence to dislike.

Her whole attitude towards her father and brother, and the paranoia from seeing the letter when she was younger really does annoy me. How about asking him about it at some point? I don't believe it is ever revealed that she did. Instead she is prepared to go to war with both of them. Nevermind that she is using an 11 year old girl and positioning her to go to war with her own family. I am surprised it took me until now to feel this way.

[jellyroll2]

You might want to spoiler some of that. I don't think some of that has been revealed just yet in Shimpy's read. I can't remember how much Arianne told about her plan in that Arys chapter.

[Mya Stone]

How is it that Shimpy just specifically told everyone where she was in her read, yet the entire Dornish plot wasn't spoiler tagged???

I've edited it as a spoiler. Please use caution. This goes for EVERYONE. You aren't sure what's been covered? The wiki of Ice and Fire is great for chapter synopses. Thanks!

[WindyNights]

@Imp You've forgotten to spoil stuff before. You need to ve more careful.

[ImpinAintEasy]

In The Soiled Knight chapter Arianne: 1. mentions the letter that Doran wrote to Quentyn 2. Asks Arys to help crown Myrcella, thus wanting to use an 11 year old to fight a war against her(Myrcella's) own family. What did I spoil? That I said I can't remember if she asked Doran about the letter?

Sorry, but I don't know what I spoiled that wasn't in the chapter Shimpy has already read. 

[Alayne Stone]

I think similarly to Cersei's prophesy, it's easy to forget that the entirety of a certain character's plot in Dorne is not revealed right away. But that's why I asked Shimpy of where she was at in the books right now, just to be sure.

 

I love your nicknames for the characters, btw! Dumbhair! I laughed out loud when I read that!

 

The resolution at Smugler's Cover should be interesting for Shimpy. It's the first time she will probably begin to really see what a departure the show took with Brienne's character.

[Dev F]

I think it's important to have the right mind-set when approaching Feast: the last book ended with a climax of action, revelations and deaths. This one deals with the aftermath of the past three books, while starting moving around pieces for the next act.

 

Yeah, I think A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons have similar problems with pacing and overstuffed world-building, but I actually like Feast better than Dragons, because it has a much stronger thematic throughline about everyone picking up the pieces in the aftermath of tragedy. (Dragons also loses points for including the only story decision in the series that almost made me throw the book across the room in a rage -- but it's not yet time for my rant about how

Young Griff better not really be fucking Aegon or Martin isn't playing fair with us

.)

[Ashara Payne]

Dev F I can't reply as I'd wish, as I can't add the spoiler tag, but your spoiler made me lol with the word order (try moving your profanity to a different place in the sentence-I read it as the actual verb rather than a cuss!).

[WindyNights]

@Dev F Don't worry,

I can assure you on my life that he's not.

[Terra Nova]

@Dev F

 

Martin wrote himself in a corner when he just thought five years would have been covered just by the events of the war of the five kings. This could have made sense in the real world, when military campaigns stopped in winter, but not in Westeros. A five years gap wouldn't have worked, in my opinion, and it also would have looked a little bit silly. For some arcs especially, we would have had all these characters reminescing stuff and then thinking 'yeah, nothing really happened these past years', and then of course all the plot would have just started moving again in unison ^^'

Sansa, Arya, Bran, Cersei, even Daenerys arcs wouldn't have suffered, but can you imagine Stannis parked five years at the Wall or roaming the North clearing Ironborn for the same amount of time?

 

Also, about your spoiler... no way your fear will come to pass... heck, I read D&E after Dance and

didn't but Aegon for a split second

[Haleth]

I'm guessing that

since he isn't in the show he most likely isn't for real.  I do like Jon Connington though and dislike that his greyscale storyline was moved to Jorah.  We could have learned more about Rhaegar from Jon.

[nksarmi]

I don't know, I've been so fed up with Dany's story since she decided to stay in Mereen to "learn how to rule" that (not for shimpy's eyes)

 I frankly wouldn't mind if Aegon WAS real.  I think he will ultimately still need his aunt because - you know - dragons!  But damn, even without the dead walking, Westerous is falling the freak apart.... and Dany decides to stay in Mereen rather than make a play for the Iron Throne?  It's not like she doesn't know.  By the time Quetyn arrives and offers her everything she could want and tells her the time is now and she rejects him?  Why in the world should I care now if she ever comes to Westerous?  I mean - ok Dany doesn't have to go to a land she has never known and save their butts.  If she wants to stay in Mereen and free the slaves and restore order to that realm - that's fine.  She doesn't owe Westerous anything.  But if that's her choice....a) why the hell did I ever have to read her story and b) don't ever have her talk about the damn Iron Throne again.  At this point, I'd much rather see Jon's forces unite with Aegon's and let them save Westerous since Dany seems so unbloody interested in it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[Dev F]

Dev F I can't reply as I'd wish, as I can't add the spoiler tag, but your spoiler made me lol with the word order (try moving your profanity to a different place in the sentence-I read it as the actual verb rather than a cuss!).

 

Ha, I noticed that right after I posted but decided to leave it as a sign of my incoherent rage. :p

[jellyroll2]

It honestly didn't occur to me that

Aegon was a fake

until I finished ADWD and saw the theories. I don't think I thought about what that development meant at all really but once I did, there was no way I was buying it. I do think it's one thing that will never have a clear answer though.

[Alayne Stone]

The only reason I don't buy Aegon being real is because he was revealed so late. And I find it far more interesting that he is a Blackfyre than a Targaryen anyway. In the end, red or black dragon, it wouldn't matter. If he is meant to be one of the three heads, all that will matter is that he's got dragon blood. That's a big "if" though.

 

As for Dany electing to stay back in Meereen ... I feel like George wrote himself into a hole here. She couldn't very well just leave Slaver's Bay in the state that it was because that would have been incredibly irresponsible of her. But then that's the double edged sword of any invasion, isn't it? Ideally she will leave behind some kind of a council that comprises equal parts of the old culture and the new world philosophy abolishing slavery that she hopes to install in that part of the world to run things when she leaves. But that's an ideal world. If it weren't for Winter coming to all the known world, I'd almost rather she just stay behind and rule as queen over the people she has taken under her wing but seeing as how her dragons are clearly meant for a higher purpose ... she needs to get to Westeros ASAP. I don't envy the job George has in trying to tie up all loose ends on that side of the world, and I don't see how going back to the Dothraki is doing anything more than complicating matters further.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[stillshimpy]

Jaime's most recent chapter was interesting. It's sort of annoying to seem him ping-pong back and forth between accepting that Tyrion was telling the truth about Cersei, and convincing himself that Tyrion was lying. So a bit too much time was dedicated to that.

Still, really interesting contrast to the excess of Tywin's honor-guard to the way the Stark bodies have all been treated. Ned's wandering bones, Catelyn dumped in a river, Robb's corpse defiled and Tywin is attended home by an honor guard. Oh, the irony.

However, immediately bringing up what The Hound (so I take it the Brotherhood found him) and Dondarrion are rumored to be doing in the Saltpans was just horrifying...because I realized who has to be directing that stuff. So Undead Catelyn is unleashing some really serious vengeance? Weird, because women being raped and babies slaughtered in their mother's arms doesn't really seem the stuff of Catelyn Stark. I guess that's got to be the stuff she saw when her eyes opened again.

I see that the book took the time to cover when Aerys must have knocked up Rhaella, after a spot of Hand burning. So Aerys had his full-on Howard Hughes going when he fathered Dany. That bodes...uh...well? Yikes. The way Rhaella was described in the aftermath reminded me of the woman Dany's Palace of Dust being savaged by the little rat men, with bloody hands.

Seeing as how it's detailed that they had not been sleeping together, that's got to be when Dany was conceived. Yikes again.

Kevan's at least an actual character in the books, which is interesting.