Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

Avaleigh · June 21, 2015

My complaint about the Lady situation with Ned is that I feel like he didn't really try to think of an alternative plan. Sending Lady, Nymeria, and Arya back to Winterfell should have at least been considered IMO. Sending Arya back could be seen as a "punishment" that would be enough to satisfy Robert and Cersei and no offense is given on the betrothal front.

It was cold and evil but I thought that Cersei insisting that Lady be killed made sense as far as long term thinking. She knows her son is a willful little brat and I can totally see her fearing that the "beast" Lady might one day attack her son as well. She was nipping that situation in the bud because she knew that those direwolves would be likely be dangerous to have around in the long run.

Delta1212 · June 21, 2015

Yeah that's why we're saying it didn't work. I'm ESL and German is my native tongue so maybe "sensitive" is wrong but it was drummed into me in English class that ...

G: Sensitiv = E: Sensual

G: Sensibel = E: Sensitive

... and I mean the latter.

And Loras being the heir of Highgarden on the show because budget and stuff is an extreme fucking problem for a Tyrell fan like me (you can tell it's a retcon because he is in Renly's kingsguard in season 2, which makes zero sense for an heir (except with extreme mental gymnastics about the specialness of Renly's kingsguard).

Sensitive has a lot of possible meanings. shimpy is distinguishing between two very similar ones.

I find this to be a good reference whenever I'm looking at words with multiple meanings between German and English: http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/sensitive.html

Avaleigh · June 22, 2015

Regarding the tourney in the books vs the tourney in the show--the tourney in the show was one of my big gripes at the time. I didn't think the show did a good job at all of showing how colorful and exciting it was supposed to be. It felt drab in comparison and I wish more time had been spent on it. I know this was before they knew whether or not the show was going to be a hit but I really wish they'd gone all out.

I remember reading all of the joking speculation that there would be a scene with Tywin pruning some roses but I don't recall reading anything about the sunbathing speculation until this thread and now all I'm picturing is Tywin putting his feet up while he uses one of those aluminum tanning board reflector things.

Protar · June 22, 2015

I remember reading all of the joking speculation that there would be a scene with Tywin pruning some roses but I don't recall reading anything about the sunbathing speculation until this thread and now all I'm picturing is Tywin putting his feet up while he uses one of those aluminum tanning board reflector things.

It was just a couple of people joking about it. Because you know the rose pruning thing would be pushing it, but not too over the top. They should have gone all out and had him lotioning up, reclining on his deck chair, using the tanning reflector. Would have made more sense than Pod the Rod.

stillshimpy · June 22, 2015

I am surprised that you found the Renly stuff to be the biggest change so far Shimpy. I guess in my mind I remember Season 1 as super duper faithful. I'd forgotten about all the subtle little changes.

Yes, the biggest changes thus far have been Ned's demeanor and ability to think a situation through, at least as it pertains to what he thinks he's doing with Robert. But the story taking a complete pass on Renly development or Stannis's presence at any point does change how the story played out. Not knowing that Stannis was there throughout made me think that Jon Arryn was just too naive to live and also later make Stannis seem grasping. Not knowing the Renly had a lot of doubts about Joffrey and Robert just made him seem kind of duplicitous too.

All of it contributed to Ned Stark looking kind of slow-witted.

Sensitive has a lot of possible meanings. shimpy is distinguishing between two very similar ones.

No problems, I understand what the stumbling block with AMBI76 is and get that we're down to splitting language hairs. Mostly I just always found the show's depiction of gay men -- up until Oberyn who was bisexual -- to be really cliched often bordering on offensively reductive. I think the worst will always be Loras in the garden with Sansa, enthusing about how he planned his wedding. That one was really just into the land of "Oh come the fuck on, Show, cut it out."

I was downright relieved when Varys showed up at Ned's, because in the book it is far more obvious that Varys over-the-top powdered and mincing persona is something he crafted to disarm others and make them perceive him as being less of threat.

It was cold and evil but I thought that Cersei insisting that Lady be killed made sense as far as long term thinking. She knows her son is a willful little brat and I can totally see her fearing that the "beast" Lady might one day attack her son as well. She was nipping that situation in the bud because she knew that those direwolves would be likely be dangerous to have around in the long run.

Yeah, here's the thing about the Direwolf inclusion in this story...I've never liked it. It was such a thinly veiled device to manipulate and upset the audience. I have always kind of disliked it, because it is something I feel Martin (and absolutely the show) uses to just upset the hell out of me. It doesn't feel like an earned thing, it's sort of writing gimme and feels like a bit of narrative cheat -- and I'm sorry, because I'm sure they are wildly popular things with their own fanbases, but you know how in horror movies they always kill the family dog or family pet? There's a reason for that. It's the narrative equivalent of clubbing a baby seal. It's an easy In -- easy access -- to make a reader or viewer feel a specific thing.

I know they were wildly popular with the audience, but I have always disliked the inclusion of naked "I'm going to use these to manipulate the shit out of your emotional well-being, cheers!" device and worse still, even knowing that, it still tended to work. It's just not the stuff of writing greatness "Imperil animals and children to get people to care" and whereas Martin is a trope breaker, that's not an area he's achieving that in.

He uses the direwolves within the story pretty much as expected. First to make you say "Aw! So cute!" then to tickle the feelings and heart-center of a reader/viewer and then to rip that same person's heart out when something hideous invariably happens to them.

So all fiction is designed to do that: Make a person emotionally invest, feel, care and react. They are a successful device, even if they are a slightly cliched one, but I went into all of that because in terms of what Cersei was up to -- she seemed to just be getting her evil on, because thus far in this story, that's all she is, the wicked queen -- part of the reason I've never liked the inclusion of the direwolves and mostly try to pretend they aren't there is that (and I hate this part) regular wolves shouldn't be kept as pets. I get that in this story the wolves are the avatars of the Stark children and their fate reflects what will happen to the Stark kids.

Beyond that I get the entire "Come on, it is one of those Investment in a Fiction World bargains" that people willingly undertake. It bugs me on the level that I work with animal rescue groups and anything that inspires people to do daft things with animals kind of irks me. Since I know it is part of the bargain made, I try to let it go. Then the story goes out of its way to point out "it's completely daft to keep a wolf as a pet, for god's sake" and whereas I was really pretty upset by the description I was also irked beyond the telling of it because: Jeez, thanks a lot Story, because Robert is clearly being a jelly-spined easy-out-taker there and I fully get that and judge him accordingly....but he's also not wrong. Wolves as pets is a bad plan, yo."

But mostly I just don't like the the wolves are rather nakedly used to manipulate me. Not my favorite part of the story.

In the show that Tournament plays out like a Renaissance Festival skit with slightly better funding than the average festival. Slightly.

Edited June 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

Protar · June 22, 2015

I've never seen the Direwolves in that manner. As just audience manipulation. Although yeah I'm not a huge fan of killing off the family pet. The worst is when it happens in comedies, when they treat it as a joke when someone runs a dog over with a car. It's not funny!

Anyway, I digress. I can sort of see how it comes across in the show because the Direwolves kind of aren't very present, but in the books they are - as you say - Avatars for the Stark kids. They're pretty central to the Starks. In the show they disappear for huge blocks of time and then just pop up occasionally. It really feels like the show doesn't want to deal with them. Obviously CGI is expensive, but I kind of feel like the Direwolves got shafted in favour of some fanservicey dragon scenes. Like we always get scenes of Dany just hanging out with her dragons - feeding them, having them sit with her during negotiations. Scenes that we seldom, if ever, get with the Direwolves. Anyway, this is perhaps a little off topic but the point is that I think in the books at least, the Direwolves are not just there for audience manipulation. They're central parts of the series, just as much as the dragons.

stillshimpy · June 22, 2015

They're pretty central to the Starks. In the show they disappear for huge blocks of time and then just pop up occasionally. It really feels like the show doesn't want to deal with them. Obviously CGI is expensive, but I kind of feel like the Direwolves got shafted in favour of some fanservicey dragon scenes.

Well and my feelings on the Direwolves might be subject to change with greater exposure to them, Protar, because I do get that its fiction and not some really weird documentary.

I am going into this with a show-born prejudice though. I got to the point where I HATED when the direwolves showed up because I fully expected them to just die and in some horrible manner. They took forever to tell us their names. Just for freaking ever and I'm not sure they told us Robb's until the poor thing was dead. Also, the images used were horribly manipulative. Robb's wolf trapped in a stall and just....I can't even go into it, it makes me that freaking angry.

Anyway, just don't be surprised if I'm never seen to be part of team "Aren't the Direwolves a cool inclusion?" because I'm perfectly willing to believe that Martin makes better use of them, but the Show treated them like something out of a Teen Scream Flick. "Oh, joy. There's a wolf. Well, I'm likely going to wish I had Xanax at the ready soon." I got to the point that I hated seeing them, because when we did, there seemed to be an equal chance that they'd be featured dying in some truly hideous "we're doing this to upset the hell out of you" manner.

I have to say though, thus far in the books, that's also how it has felt because of that description of Lady. Sweet, trusting, gentle loving and good. Yeah, I do think Martin expected me to be in floods of tears over that one and that was the intention. That he might be them to better and more varied use is good to know.

Edited June 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

Protar · June 22, 2015

Well that seems something of an exaggeration. Only two direwolves have died. But yeah I can see where you're coming from. Animals dying in fiction really gets me and I can see that the show really did strip them down to the point that Greywind just existed to be killed. And I suppose even in the books Lady existed to be killed, though I'll defend that from a narrative purpose, it symbolises Sansa's divorce from her "Starkness."

And I can tell you it annoyed us bookwalkers for years that they took so long to name the Wolves. Same with the dragons.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Protar

Triskan · June 22, 2015

Well, as Protar said above, the direwolves are much more present in the books, so I have faith you'll warm up to them ! ;)

So, shimpy, what were the last chapters you read ?

(And we never got Grey Wind's name in the show !)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Triskan

Avaleigh · June 22, 2015

In the show that Tournament plays out like a Renaissance Festival skit with slightly better funding than the average festival. Slightly.

It was so disappointing. I remember too initially reading that the tourney would be in two episodes so of course I really got my hopes up and it was mostly boiled down to how Littlefinger got his name, Loras being a little underhanded, and a sampling of the Clegane feud.

Delta1212 · June 22, 2015

Yeah, this show has an enormous budget, but there are times where you can see just how snug a fit it really is trying to get Martin's world inside it, and the tourney was definitely one of them.

benteen · June 22, 2015

The Direwolves are much more important in the books. On the show, they are just an afterthought and barely qualified as such this season.

I think if they had filmed the King's Landing Tourney now, it would have MUCH, much better. Look at the arena this season. That's the advantages of a much bigger budget and improved CGI.

Edited June 22, 2015 by benteen

stillshimpy · June 22, 2015

Well that seems something of an exaggeration. Only two direwolves have died.

Well, that's true but the only thing we ever saw of Nymeria beyond biting Joffrey in a "Yay! Who's a good wolf?" capacity was being struck by rocks, whimpering and forced to flee the person she loved. So we're really half and half on the "Oh shit, man...there's a wolf, what's going to happen?"

On the one hand, I kind of appreciated the heads up from Martin in the use of Lady's death. Sincerely, that was very early days in the narrative and it wasn't overly detailed or terribly gratuitous. That was definitely the flag of "Listen, here's your first warning: this may not be the story you think it is. I practically just killed bambi and that butcher's boy ....well, let's just say that if you're sensitive to this kind of stuff....here is a clear and not particularly gory warning: this might not be the story for you."

But as for it not being a fair assessment, again, that's a book vs. show difference, because in the Show? I still, to this moment, feel it is a fair assessment: Half are either dead or gone...and they sent two off with Osha and Rickon....which was one of the few points of relief in the show, by the way. "Oh thank god, go to safety." But they literally killed Robb's wolf without naming him, after showing him helplessly penned up.

I'll see what there is to be seen in the books, but we've got: Abused, Wrongfully Killed, Cowardly Killed and then Mutilated and....really? Those three only got one scene a piece other than their Dire Fate scene. Two got sent away and that was a giant relief, but you know how in season five Ghost saves Gilly? My husband deadpanned, "The rapists are going to kill him, aren't they?" and I answered, "Pretty much without a doubt. Fuckers."

And....you know what? No Ghost in Jon's death scene, so I ended up wondering if HBO spared me Ghost's hideous death, or if they were planning on opening next season with some rat bastard wearing a wolf coat :-/ You can't unknow or unsee either, so you know that the books put them to better use already. What I already know is that HBO really used them primarily to fuck with me, to the extent that I was so damned grateful that Summer left with Osha, so that I wouldn't have to see him die. That's really how bad it felt without any other context "Oh thank gods, they are merely jettisoning them! Run CGI Pups, Run like Hell! Don't stop running until you see a lampost and a talking goat or something. Look for the dude named Aslan. Just trust me on this, get thee to another fictional universe."

Just saying, that's probably the biggest area of "Undo this damage, please George R. R. Martin." I asked Mya the other day, as we were joking around, "So, does Martin actually have a sister?" and apparently he does and I joked that "Well, thanksgiving would be awkward, Presumably they toast with "Fiction is made up stuff. Let's eat." and are done with it."

I didn't ask if he had a dog and I'm unlikely to at this juncture. Maybe later. By the way, it's probably important to mention that I do have a pretty good sense of humor about this sort of stuff, but the reason I started reading the stories had more to do with how many people I know, who I like and respect, have read the books. That's what really convinced me to read them. I know too many people who just LOVE them to not question my impression from the show, which is that this was a fantasy/horror novel series. I flat-out asked three different people if that was the case before reading them, but a bunch of the stuff with Ramsay had me believing that this was more Tolkien-meets-King than anything else.

I have been told that that isn't the case, but I'm pretty wary because the show often did play like a translated horror novel :-/ I'm not saying that to be a jerk, it's just...that's often how it played particularly in later seasons. They really did up the violence and action aspects. It's been intriguing thus far because it's a more developed world via the written word than I had been giving it credit for being.

Triskan, I'm 35% through and just stopped at an Eddard Chapter where Varys has just appeared and Ned is astonished that someone might not trust him as their go-to position. I'm not tearing through it, and that is on purpose. So I am stringing out the read. For one thing, it's my only chance to hang out with Ned again, pretty much ever and it's nice to get to know him a bit better.

Edited June 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

Haleth · June 22, 2015

As benteen said, the direwolves are more important in the books. You'll see. Everything has a purpose.

Delta1212 · June 22, 2015

Ok, it sounds like I'm actually a chapter ahead of you then. I'll hold off for a bit.

I do think that there is an element of horror writing woven through the series that Martin does quite well, but I wouldn't describe it as a fantasy/horror series, no.

I think part of the problem with the wolves on the show is that, unlike the dragons, wolves are real animals, which means that they either need to be played by real wolves and some camera tricks/compositing, which limits the amount of interaction and just general performance they can have, or they need to be CGI which, again, real animals so you know how a wolf is supposed to look.

If a dragon doesn't look "real" well, it's a dragon. You don't have a solid reference for how it's supposed to look or move or what have you. Everyone has seen a dog before, so if the wolves look CGI'd, it's going to stand out.

They wound up doing a combination of techniques throughout the run of the show, but you can tell they weren't easy to work around. Plus, when the dragons interact with people in any especially dramatic fashion, it's usually via flamethrower, which is easier to handle than teeth and claws.

Also, the wolves are a lot more prominent in parts of the book, so the screen time downgrade is more noticeable, whereas the dragons don't do a heck of the lot while they're still tiny, so it's not like they had to trim a lot for them anyway.

Unless you want Twilight-like giant wolves, which had an even larger budget behind them than GoT, there's not a lot of good options for incorporating them fully into the show, and I think they opted to just cut their role down to some dramatic highlights which, yeah, has some unfortunate consequences for how they're ultimately used on the show.

Protar · June 22, 2015

Martin can definitely do horror when he wants to. There are certain scenes - like the opening scene, where he slips entirely into the horror genre. But no, I wouldn't describe the books as horror/fantasy. I've seen them described as literary fiction which just so happens to be set in a fantasy setting and I think that's accurate (even if I'm not a big fan of literary fiction because it's a bit snobby). And as I've mentioned before on this thread the show definitely ups the gruesomeness and nihilism of certain scenes/plot lines.

Triskan · June 22, 2015

Unless you want Twilight-like giant wolves, which had an even larger budget behind them than GoT, there's not a lot of good options for incorporating them fully into the show

Well, somehow I hope that for the last seasons the show will go that road.

I have a feeling the wolves will be a significant aspect of the story's conclusion, so I think they'll need an increased budget to finally feature them more proeminently.

Avaleigh · June 22, 2015

Martin can definitely do horror when he wants to. There are certain scenes - like the opening scene, where he slips entirely into the horror genre. But no, I wouldn't describe the books as horror/fantasy. I've seen them described as literary fiction which just so happens to be set in a fantasy setting and I think that's accurate (even if I'm not a big fan of literary fiction because it's a bit snobby). And as I've mentioned before on this thread the show definitely ups the gruesomeness and nihilism of certain scenes/plot lines.

I thought the prologue did a pretty good job of setting up the tension. There are other moments that I won't get into yet but I'd say roughly two or three times in each book there is a point where he writes something that is truly creepy and surprisingly unsettling.

stillshimpy · June 22, 2015

Well, and I'll see how this plays out, but in the prologue the key difference for me between that and straight-up horror writing is that there's difference between writing for the horror genre, in which you just want people not to be able to comfortably turn out the lights and go to sleep afterward. You want the reader to be beyond unnerved, into unsettled and if they actually are upset and questioning their own safety at that moment? Gggggooooooooaaaaaaaalllll!

Score one for the author.

But then there's also atmospheric scene-setting. Are we in a dangerous land where anything might happen? Supernatural forces at play? Check and double-check. Should I be keeping in mind even as I go forward that there is something fantastical at play in all of this, no matter how ordinary and "Okay, so I see we studied the same periods of history, good to know...." Just that atmosphere of other-worldly danger vs. "Expect Monsters and Mutants, a lot" .

It also just adds to ....gah, I'm really going to struggle with how to put this, so please bear with me for a few minutes: The story with the Starks, and King's Landing and the tussle for the Throne and all of those characters believe that they are in a story about power structures and political wrangling with corruption and possible murder. They think they know their personal score and purpose. Ned, who is far less of an idiot than I was thinking, thinks he knows what he's trying to do.

Thinks he gets why it matters. Same thing with Catelyn, who doesn't come off well in that "arrest Tyrion" scene at all, but in fairness to her, without the Book Detail of Jaime nearly being named Warden of the East and the inclusion that both Ned and Cat think that the Lannisters are planning an actual war ....she thinks that's where their country is headed anyway.

That's a big difference in how to judge her actions. Ned and Cat think that the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn is a precursor to a planned war. So whereas she is sort of fast-tracking that, it's far less baffling in the "Oh my God, why would you do that? Don't you realize, it will totally start a fucking war and your husband and children are in the capital, you foolhardy woman!! Think it through. Walk it back! What the fuck?"

Whereas everything about the "Jebus Crickets, Catelyn, your husband and your children are within VERY EASY REACH of that man's family, what the fuck can you humanly be thinking??"

She's thinking that by announcing that a Lannister tried to kill a Stark child, which she believes to be true, it will fully determine loyalties that might otherwise be in question in a war that she thinks is being planned regardless.

A couple of the details that got left out really do put a different spin on what Cat does. Doesn't make it smarter, but it does make it less "holy shit, are you an idiot?"

That's the story the that all of the characters think that they are in. They all think they are in production of sorts, but their script is from a different genre.

The prologue doesn't necessarily say "Horror Story!" to me, it just says that the dangers in this story are already present and that I'm watching these people enact their political intrigue while all the while knowing, "Uh...so....hmmmmm.....if you look over there for a little bit you might perceive the real danger, because SPOILER....you're in danger like...whoa. However, you're all too busy thinking you're the protagonist in some version of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy....and you have this small, the dead are risen problem. You're all going to die if you can't cut the cutesy power-playing shit."

So it's not horror as a genre that comes to mind, it's more suspense combined with "true masters of horror know it's the stuff you suspect offscreen that scares you silliest". Or you know, Zombies Go to Washington. Or something.

Protar · June 22, 2015

That's really the story in a nutshell - everyone is so preoccupied with the game of thrones that they can't see the real threat even as it bears down upon them. It's the Game versus the Song.

plurie · June 22, 2015

That's the story the that all of the characters think that they are in. They all think they are in production of sorts, but their script is from a different genre.

The prologue doesn't necessarily say "Horror Story!" to me, it just says that the dangers in this story are already present and that I'm watching these people enact their political intrigue while all the while knowing, "Uh...so....hmmmmm.....if you look over there for a little bit you might perceive the real danger, because SPOILER....you're in danger like...whoa. However, you're all too busy thinking you're the protagonist in some version of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy....and you have this small, the dead are risen problem. You're all going to die if you can't cut the cutesy power-playing shit."

So it's not horror as a genre that comes to mind, it's more suspense combined with "true masters of horror know it's the stuff you suspect offscreen that scares you silliest". Or you know, Zombies Go to Washington. Or something.

THIS! But to be fair to the characters, magic hasn't seemed to exist in Westeros for centuries, and Nan's tales of the Others are believed to be nothing more than fairy tales. They DO have proof that there were dragons (and direwolves) in the past, but they're believed to be extinct.

You asked earlier if I had changed my opinion of any characters in the course of reading the books. Stannis was pretty much a nonentity to me until he showed up at the Wall. He was the ONLY one who answered the Night's Watch's call for help against the REAL enemy. So yay, Stan!

Sansa grew on me a lot. She was just a silly teen at the beginning, but she grew up really fast. When she saved Ser Dontos at Joffrey's birthday tourney, that was really clever and kind.

Dany, OTOH, was great in the first book, but rapidly got bogged down in various cities in Essos making really stupid decisions.

Avaleigh · June 23, 2015

As for character opinions changing once I saw the show--

Viserys is a big one here for me. The show made me reexamine whether or not he was deserving of sympathy whereas in the books I mostly think he's a little monster who reminds me of a Joffrey type only he was spoiled in a different kind of way.

Show Jorah I like more for shallow reasons. I hate admitting that but it's true.

The portrayals of the characters of Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Barristan have been so good to me that these are the characters that I'm most looking forward to reading again simply because of what the actor has done with the role. Characters like Jon, Dany, Melisandre, and the Lannisters I was already looking forward to reading again.

stillshimpy · June 23, 2015

Show Jorah I like more for shallow reasons. I hate admitting that but it's true.

I'm with you though and I'm also not particularly comfortable with "Oh, I'm being superficial. How evolved of me" but we all do it and I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if the casting choice for Jorah was an invitation to do exactly that: Invest more easily in Jorah and de-creep his eventual feelings about Dany. By the way, book Dany is snoring levels of boring, but it could simply be that hers is one story that isn't really benefiting from the expansion of the written word. It's more: "Yup. Same story, slight differences. Ho-dee-hum. Get on with it."

Okay, so I've red Ned's chapter with Varys, then Tyrion's (more on that in a second) and then Arya's . I actually had to take a break after Arya's because even knowing, perhaps especially knowing the story's outcome, I found all three to be among the most frustrating experiences of my reading life. I'm sure that part is dependent on how pear-shaped and corpse-shaped this whole adventure will turn out to be for Ned.

I now understand why, for the first few years over on TWoP when we pretty obviously and regularly had readers in amongst us, there was such a heated dislike of Catelyn that truly seemed to be based on things not on the screen. That entire Tyrion chapter made me want to slip Cat some sedative-laced tea and take over for her. Also, I don't think I actually caught on to the tears of lys thing in the series until much later than it is mentioned in the book, but that's kind of neither here nor there because it never occurred to me that the word "Lees" would be spelled "Lys". I just need a time machine to fix that sucker.

Onward though. ARGH. So it was nice to read Tyrion marveling about how clever Catelyn had been and to get his take on the situation. As well as the fact that so few actually heed the call and that Lord Frey's men weren't really among them. But...but and some more but....the book makes it LOADS clearer that that isn't Tyrion's knife. To that freaking fucking moment I did not realize that Knifey was never Tryion's knife. Although retroactive bookwalker spotting in the form of that person who kept arguing with me that Tyrion would never bet against his family...which is something we had no reason to believe at the time...yay, another instance of "Oh goody, I got to be gullible in a verbose manner in front of a bunch of people. Some more. Thank goodness I was so practiced at it and comfortable in my own foolishness. Whee." I'm totally going to have to stop tallying how many times I clearly argued with a bookwalker for pages on end. Having a good memory for that kind of thing is sucking for me right now.

Again, onward. So Tyrion is impressed with Cat's mental acuity and we've reached a rare instance where the show toned down Book Tyrion and Dinklage managed to render the material in a truly deft manner, meaning that he brought more to it than the page has. Dinklage is great, but thus far, he's been a snarkier, bawdier version of the page Tyrion. In this instance he had his company manners on for Cat and it's a little more fitting to what he's trying to get her to believe. Tryion's book attempt to persuade Cat that Littlefinger was lying to her was about the stupidest tact to take. He bragged about boning her. That had to be the easiest way ever to get Cat's back up and not in a way that would make her hear him more easily.

Also, jebus, show. We argued over who sent the assassin to kill Bran for YEARS. Just freaking YEARS, because the show never got around to just having Tryion say, "That isn't my knife, I swear it." Nope. They had him say the line about "What kind of idiot" etc. but not the "That isn't my knife" part. I guess they wanted Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned to be as big a surprise as possible.

Still seems like they passed up golden opportunity to clear that mess up when Tryion eventually gets back to Kings Landing, but by then, I guess it was intentional. Fine. Fifty million words, and not even close to just mine, wasted on something that is cleared up less than half way through the book?

So that HAD to be an instance where you all were just freaking dying to tell us all "Oh my God, SHUT UP. It was never, ever Tyrion's knife? Okay? Page ______ he tells Catelyn and we're also dealing with his inner thoughts and HEAR THIS....Not.His.Knife. Do the math. We'll wait."

That is one of the reasons I had to stop reading after Arya's chapter for a bit. It was just frustrating to know that they actively took a pass on something that still, to this day, gets argued when the Unsullied get bored. If it was Petyr's knife and never anyone else's, it wasn't Joffrey (which always seemed possible because he's a psycho and hated Tyrion...and wanted to get him back for the slap) , it wasn't anyone named Lannister or Lsya Arryn or Varys or Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum. It was fucking Littllefinger. Thanks show! I practically got carpal tunnel syndrome typing out arguments for that plot element alone and I wrote a complicated theory about Knifey, in which The World's Most Distinctive Knife was actually behind the entire gig.

I'm a little frustrated. Yo.

Anyway, Arya was clearly not doing anything hideous to the cats after all. That conversation in the tunnels contains the same "Huh, what is Varys freaking up to, really?" material....but so hot on the heels of his scene with Ned, I'm going to have to say that Varys was really a Targ supporter and that's going to become weird and confusing. I look forward to the mud-like clarity I will eventually NOT achieve, because that's another element that's a little "Huh."

Again, excising the Stannis plot must have felt like the right thing to do, as well as the Renly-trying-to-bait-Robert's Lyanna obsession with Margaery (who is TON younger than I thought she was supposed to be....which is kind of a relief, really considering the eventual Tommen plot).

So mostly that chapter just highlight a) the specifics of Arya's Syrio training -- which were actually very lovely to read b) that the whole Games gamesmanship had more layers (which is a pity to have lost) c) it's so frustrating that Ned thinks Arya has overheard freaking Mummers, I just don't even know where to start. However, he had a lot on his mind.

A mind that apparently Varys respected for his ability to puzzle things out. Again, a detail it is sad that the series lost.

But mostly what I keep thinking is that you all must have been downright tickled to death with how faithfully so much of this was translated to the screen. That must have been a lot of fun for you.

What were your disappointments up to this point? Since I've so thoroughly flogged my own "Oh my GAWD, that muthfucka of a knife....and FOUR YEARS OF MY LIFE....cleared up half way through the first book."

Time to walk my dogs, in part to walk off my embarrassment. I wrote SO MUCH about that knife and I was so far from alone in that. God, it's like getting caught with boogers on your nose after a group photo.

Edited June 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

Seerow · June 23, 2015

Shimpy: If it makes you feel better, Knifey was still a subject of debate even among bookwalkers for at least a couple more years, until more details were provided in a later book. While the book at this point makes it pretty clear it isn't Tyrions, the question of who it DOES belong to remains pretty open for quite a while.

As for disappointments in the adaptation for season 1? I don't actually remember having a lot. I've always been pretty happy with the show even when it goes totally off the rails. There is a couple of scenes omitted about 2/3rds of the way through the book (you'll know them when you see them) that a ton of people were really upset about not having though.

Haleth · June 23, 2015

Bah, think nothing of it. If anything your arguments point out the glaring incompetence on the part of the show writers to convey subtle plot points. It isn't the last time either. I can think of another matter you all discussed at length that is cleared up with a sentence. That will come later.

Avaleigh · June 23, 2015

So that HAD to be an instance where you all were just freaking dying to tell us all "Oh my God, SHUT UP. It was never, ever Tyrion's knife? Okay? Page ______ he tells Catelyn and we're also dealing with his inner thoughts and HEAR THIS....Not.His.Knife. Do the math. We'll wait."

It was a little frustrating but only because I felt bad that you guys weren't getting answers that should have and could have easily been provided if the showrunners had paid a bit more attention to detail.

As for disappointments in the adaptation for season 1? I don't actually remember having a lot. I've always been pretty happy with the show even when it goes totally off the rails.

I mostly enjoy the show. One thing in the first season of the show that is hugely disappointing to me though is that we never really get to see Jaime fight. He fights with Ned in the streets of King's Landing for like fifteen seconds and that's it. It pains me that the show just didn't take the opportunity they had by blowing up the Battle of the Whispering Wood a bit. It would have been beneficial for the characters of Robb and Jaime and would have been entertaining. I would have taken that over something like that lame Dothraki wedding.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Avaleigh

plurie · June 23, 2015

I was disappointed by the addition of a certain character in the first season, but, since you don't know about that yet, I'll leave it for later.

Both Jorah and Ser Barristen were MUCH more interesting on the show (silver foxes!) than in the book. Especially Jorah, who was a lot less likeable in the books.

benteen · June 23, 2015

I would have liked to have seen the Battle of the Whispering Wood. Although when I read the book after seeing the show, that Battle was about 4-5 pages long and described in the most general of terms so I didn't feel like I lost anything. Not seeing the Green Fork battle felt like a lost though.

One book moment I liked that wasn't in the show...I think it was from Ned's POV where it's mentioned their first night at King's Landing, Ned took both Sansa and Arya to a weirwood tree to pray from Bran. I think it's mentioned that both of the girls fell asleep but when Sansa woke up, she told Ned that she dreamed about Bran. It was just a nice moment in the books and a nice moment for Sansa. Anyone else remember that scene?

It's funny with Iain Glen, who plays Jorah. Whenever I read the Davos chapters in the books, I always pictured him looking like Iain Glen. I'm not sure why...maybe it's because Glen has a Richard Chamberlin in Shogun look about him and I just associated that with Davos, who is a ship commander.

Edited June 23, 2015 by benteen

Delta1212 · June 23, 2015

This far in the book/season 1, as you've noted, there hasn't been a lot that was changed except for little omissions. Since that's pretty standard for an adaptation from book to screen, there hasn't been too much to get disappointed about quite yet, the one exception being the size of the Hand's tourney, which we talked about before.

Point of note, the book doesn't actually tell us who the two men Arya overhears are, although you can figure it out based on the descriptions. There is a lot of that that happens in the books, and the show tends to gloss over that because it's hard to have an actor on screen that the POV character doesn't know and hide their identity from the audience as well.

Incidentally, the Three Stooges made their appearance in that Tyrion chapter.

Avaleigh · June 23, 2015

One small detail that I liked that didn't make it into the show is the way that Ned is literally forced to temporarily wear another man's clothes when he attends his first meeting with the small council. He totally feels like he's been placed into this role that was meant for another man and he feels out of sorts in every way right down to his clothes.

Dev F · June 23, 2015

Onward though. ARGH. So it was nice to read Tyrion marveling about how clever Catelyn had been and to get his take on the situation. As well as the fact that so few actually heed the call and that Lord Frey's men weren't really among them. But...but and some more but....the book makes it LOADS clearer that that isn't Tyrion's knife.

Yep. There's a tiny exculpating detail earlier in the book, even, when Tyrion's guilt is still kind of up in the air: Tyrion goes on for while about how much he loves the library at Winterfell, and then the assassin creates a diversion by torching the library tower, which is something Tyrion would never have allowed the guy to do if he'd hired him.

As Seerow points out, though, the Knifey story still isn't quite resolved at this point in the story, as we only know that Littlefinger lied about the knife's origins to cast suspicion on Tyrion, not the details of how/if he hired the assassin in the first place.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Dev F

Lavignac · June 23, 2015

Wow it's fun to listen to you Shimpy in this new context.

I have been a follower of the Unsuillied almost since the beginning. I used to say on Watchersonthewall.com (and earlier on winteriscoming.net while it was still a good fansite) how your Completely Unspoiled Speculation thread was a GREAT spectator sport. Right or wrong, the fresh take by bright minds based on a different set of evidence than what the readers had access to, it was always entertaining.

So, my questions to StillShimpy: Do you believe you'll be interested in following the SpitBall wall silently now? Will you be willing, in your unique position, to tell them spoiler-free your dominant impressions from transitionning to the books?

Delta1212 · June 23, 2015

Also, just from a re-read perspective, there was a lot more packed into that Vary/Illyrio conversation than I remembered. It's been so long since I looked at that dialogue as a whole rather than just specific lines, and obviously the first time I read this chapter, I was lacking a lot of context and didn't know who was talking, so it's quite a different experience when you know who is talking and what it is they are talking about (in total, rather than just a reference here and there that I would have been able to grasp the first time through).

Lady S. · June 23, 2015

One small detail that I liked that didn't make it into the show is the way that Ned is literally forced to temporarily wear another man's clothes when he attends his first meeting with the small council. He totally feels like he's been placed into this role that was meant for another man and he feels out of sorts in every way right down to his clothes.

On the show, they actually had Ned walking into the meeting in his dirty traveling attire because he was so manly he just didn't care. I think I could go on a whole rant about how shabbily dressed the Northern nobles are most of the time, compared to the books. Dressed no better than their guardsmen, except when Robb suddenly got some nice duds for the Red Wedding. It's much easier for me to believe that Theon became a dandy while growing up in book Winterfell. Show Ned and Robb only appreciated the finer things slightly more than Balon.

IA with you about the tourney and Jaime's badass swordfighting skills, but I think that was more a choice forced by budget than anything. Like how the show

had Tyrion knocked out so the entire Battle of the Green Fork could happen offscreen.

stillshimpy · June 24, 2015

Incidentally, the Three Stooges made their appearance in that Tyrion chapter.

Heh, boy okay, I'm trying to think who they likely are and I think it might be simply more apparent on repeated readings. The one I would have pegged as being a Three Stooge stand-in didn't make it out of the journey to the Vale alive. I'll have to pay more attention. I think I should probably also add that I don't actually like the Three Stooges and only know the Larry, Curly and Mo thing because it's ingrained in the pop culture atmosphere.

I am beginning to understand NCW dilemma with playing Jaime Lannister in the series even if he read that first book from cover-to-cover and back, the only heads up he'd have on how to play the character, thus far, is in one word "loathing" and it's also becoming apparent why Lena Headey didn't read the books. That was the one actor I already knew about because back on TWoP I'd written something about how it almost seemed like Cersei Lannister sort of liked Ned as a human being. I don't mean that in any romantic sense, then or now, but just in a general "didn't think he was a complete schmuck for being honorable and gave him more than one heads up to get the hell out of Dodge"....and got a PM correcting me (that's the kindest way to put that) and also informing me that Lena Headey did not read the books.

I've never really had reason to question that as being valid and now I think it has to be true, because I'm halfway through and they are side characters -- walk-ons in the POV of others. There has been no "What are you doing here?" scene from to Ned and it is past the point in the story when it could have happened. The scene in which Cersei tells Ned that the Lannisters kill their enemies. Since that was a scene that went a long way towards determining my view of Cersei , because it was practically a warning shot across Ned's bow, that would have given him the chance to get his family the hell out of Kingslanding, I'm left sort of at a loss.

Boy, it's a good thing they got Mark Addy for Robert, because the Small Council meeting where they decide to kill Dany was not endearing stuff for Robert's character. I think the best "Oh wow, so they made that up?" scene so far was the "Which is mightier five or one?" conversation, which was beautifully played all around and was the first glimpse into what the hell had happened between Robert and Cersei that created such a mess. So...they never did have a child together? This season when the witch is telling Cersei about the three children she'll have, it wasn't the show thinking the viewers would have forgotten about the first boy, it was that the scene contained information that was made up for the show? Still not great that they seemingly forgot about it (they actually usually have an assistant whose job it is to catch continuity errors in scripts) , but more understandable.

Barristan being so fully in the know about Jorah makes me wonder about a lot of the story with Dany in later seasons. I need to be on the look out for clear and present alterations.

Point of note, the book doesn't actually tell us who the two men Arya overhears are, although you can figure it out based on the descriptions. There is a lot of that that happens in the books, and the show tends to gloss over that because it's hard to have an actor on screen that the POV character doesn't know and hide their identity from the audience as well.

I did notice that, but thought that the chapter made it very clear who they were...even if Arya was focused on facial scars to an almost distracting degree (because I had to search my memory and for a moment it didn't click ...plus, the unshaven thing sort of unsettle me too...because it raised a troubling "wait, he is actually a eunuch, right?" question)

So Varys is a really confusing character, by the way. If this was my first introduction to him, that would have been a long march of "Wait, what?" because he is obviously the man Arya sees, but in the very next scenes he's advising that Dany be killed. Nice to have the "Okay, I'm not entirely insane, this was presented to us as an almost exclusively patriarchal society" confirmation. So he really seemed all over the map.

Wow, the trip to the Eyrie contained the most delightful descriptions of the landscape and a keep yet. It's fun to know that Robert and Ned grew up there together. I lived in Colorado the majority of my adult life and it reminded me of the high plains in terms of its description. The show made some style choices in depicting the Eyrie that are a little disappointing.

I did have to laugh that there is a character named Mya Stone. Heh, all this time and it never occurred to me that that was a character name, because we didn't have the confirmation on last names. Stone for the illegitimate children of the Vale, Sand for Dorne, River for the Riverlands, Snow for the North.

It's too bad they didn't include the character for the show. There was a bit of irony to be had in an illegitimate person being Cat's saving grace in those circumstances, but I admit, Cat gets harder to take with further exposure. I mean, disliking Jon is petty, if human. Being so weirdly insecure that she can't even hear about other illegitimate children is a bit much. I think it bugs me so much in that she was supposed to have been in love with Brandon and when he died, was married off to Ned. So it irks me that she begrudges Ned having ever loved anyone other than her. It's the most small-minded characteristic and it doesn't actually fit with the rest of this confident character's demeanor.

Brynden Tully, eh? Okay, can I just stick with calling him Blackfish? That spelling makes me wince. No one could accuse Martin of being overly creative with names in this books "take name from known history. Swap out vowels and reuse names a lot" ...I think the show made a smart call in changing Robert Arryn's name to Robyn, by the way. That would officially have been one too many Robb and Robert types running around.

So....that's actually a passage in the book that is a little irksome because it relies on a weird soap opera device: People refusing to just have a clear conversation with one another. Blackfish is a) present in this story b) warns Cat but for some reason doesn't outright warn her...just hints heavily....which is the irksome part. Spit. It. Out. "Your sister? Yeah, not going to help. Lost most of her mind. Want to stay at my house while we rethink this stuff?" c) whereas I appreciate that the men of the Vale aren't presented in that same fully corrupt "everyone knows she's crazypants, and are taking advantage of it, they all seem coated with slime" way the show did ...which was not the best choice to my mind...better to have people trying to behave honorably, but caught in a tough situation and unsure what to do, I think.

Anyway, I anticipate that whole thing at the Vale giving me an even bigger headache than it did in the show and it drove me nuts in the show.

Also, I hope that this guy Mychel (again, that's a fairly tortured attempt at converting real names to "this world" names, but it is consistent as a world detail) marries Mya and that freaking Cat learns of it before her horrible demise.

One thing about the horrible-demise-to-come: So, the Red Wedding thing. In the first season of GoT I was involved in a discussion for a completely different show, people were discussing shocking twists and someone said "Well it's not like Game of Thrones. Red wedding! Red Wedding!" and three different people seeminglyflipped their wigs and started essentially berating the poster with "Stop it. No spoilers. Cut it out." type stuff. I was confused as hell, but what I thought was "Okay, whose family colors Red in the show? Lannister? Huh, I wonder which Lannister character is forced to marry?"

It was the one instance where someone mentioning something and indicating it was from the show, completely led me down the wrong path and actually set me up to be more "Oh holy shit!!!!" about a thing that was already pretty "OH HOLY SHIT!" anyway. I think I'm likely the only GoT watcher who was unspoiled for the Slaughter of Starks, who was caught even more off guard. I didn't know until the next morning, when everyone was referring to it as "The Red Wedding" and my BIL sent a link of "People react to the Red Wedding" assuring me there were no spoilers (except that the show didn't call it the Red Wedding).

But it actually gets slightly better, in that because I thought, "Oh wow, so that was the Red Wedding? That was sickening. Why am I even watching this damned show?" but because I thought, "Okay, that was that...." I then thought, "Okay, so there is no Lannister wedding thing? Good to know." and got set up again for -- in that instance -- a much better surprise when Joffrey died at his own wedding (infuriating shit with necklaces aside) .

Fun with misconceptions, I guess.

Point of note, the book doesn't actually tell us who the two men Arya overhears are, although you can figure it out based on the descriptions. There is a lot of that that happens in the books, and the show tends to gloss over that because it's hard to have an actor on screen that the POV character doesn't know and hide their identity from the audience as well.

There really, really is. Like a gobsmacking amount of stuff with what everyone else is up to. Including that they were trying to use Margaery to turn Robert's head. Or were planning on trying.

Hi, Lavignac, nice to be talking to everyone here too :-) Thank you. I am starting to get why that thread was fun for people, because I can remember a LOT of what we talked about and tried to puzzle out. It really must have been like watching people create a (sometimes plausible, sometimes not) AU.

So, my questions to StillShimpy: Do you believe you'll be interested in following the SpitBall wall silently now?

Actually no, but it's not because of any ill will or anything. It has to do with something I actually already told Mya -- there are few enough people left among the Unsullied and we had been doing that together long enough that I usually know how each person will react to a particular story. Pallas always has the most poetic and emotionally generous reactions to things. Stumbler is the best with remembering names and keeping track of everything , but is chiefly a Stannis fan (which is why the Shireen thing made me furious...but also had me thinking, "Oh God, poor Stumbler." pretty much as soon as it happened). gingerella it hilarious and the best at trying to figure out the structures of power, and whereas Pallas has the most poetry, gingerella has the most heat about things (making the inclusion of ginger in her name wholly fitting), but in a fun way. I could keep going on with the breakdown , but that's the gist of it, it would be odd to watch that go down and not play my own part in it....I also don't think it's the same kind of fun for me, because again, finding out where we really chased the wrong rabbit down a hole is equal parts fun and uncomfortable for me.

As for giving a wholly unspoiled version of anything to Spitball gang: I can't. That's against the rules. You can't unknow what you already know. It was why people who were reading the guides and were watching the previews weren't the best people to have around from our perspective....you can't really excise actual knowledge and it influences whatever you say. Like my deciding that I really just needed to not be part of the group any longer, because whereas almost every important thing that I ended up knowing involved stuff that is in the past on the show (Stannis is dead, and I suspect the other situation also involves "okay, so already dead in the story is the most probable reason that was made up for the show') ....I could spot how it was influencing a level of anger in what I was saying.

So about the only thing I'd be able to tell any of the Spitball Wall gang is what almost every reader has told them and what the one Bookwalker I fully trusted to know whether or not I'd find this to be the case or not: No really, the books are WAY better, which is my current take on it. That might change with subsequent books, I'm not sure yet.

I can't even tell you the number of people who told me that over the years. I know that someone named TheSulliedMute made a plea for all of us to read the books. I never saw that post, but someone else from our group did and just reported what was said. It's possible that hearing that from me would make a difference to them, because just like I tend to know their positions before they even post, the same can be said in my direction. "Oh here comes shimpy, she'll defend Sansa, hate on Bolton and really, really, violently hate on Ramsay. She'll talk about finding Jon boring and make fun of Stannis to tease Stumbler" ...but that doesn't mean that they would think, "Well, she'd know my tastes."

I knew my son would actually know and prior to his reading the books, I had NEVER planned on reading them. Ever. Like as a point of pride. I frequently said there are themes that I did not want to see expanded upon on the page. Sure, I was confused by how many people I genuinely like had read the books and told me, "They are sooooo good." but everyone has different tastes. I just tried watching Outlander on a friend's recommendation and I'm still soldiering through the it....but I can't stand drippy romance tales. I just ...nope. So far Outlander is a very drippy romance/time-travel experiment and not at all suited to me. One of my closest real-life friends was the person recommending it. Thus far I'm hoping she doesn't ask me about it.

Basically all I'm saying is all of those folks have come this far and the only people who would budge their opinions are people so close to them, they'd know for absolute certain, without a doubt: I think you'd like this. There are two people I'm confident would like the books. I think Janjan and Pallas would both really like them. Stumbler...I don't know. Maybe. I think I'd know better after the first book. gingerella might or might not, I think she'd have a ton of fun with them and probably have the funniest stuff to say, particularly about anything that made her angry, because she's hilarious when ticked off. She coined the term Bookwalker, which I still think is brilliant.

But I'd never been entirely certain if I was recommending the books because "I'd totally recommend these to you based on your actual personalities and tastes!" and more concerned that I was recommending them because I missed playing with them on the internet playground.

I actually PM'd one person from the group who was wavering and told her to do what felt right, but to remember that pretty much immediately there's no going back. You really can't unsee, so be very careful where you look. That's been my only attempt to persuade anyone beyond the initial "I actually can't stay. Sorry, want to join?" and it was to give a heads up on the "Nope, really....by the time you're a dozen pages in....that's it. Different stuff and things you can't unknow." type of thing.

I do think the books are much better. Furthermore, I think they are telling a subtler and more sophisticated story, by kind of a freaking lot. But they are different and I only know for certain that the people left in the group are there because they are invested in the story onscreen...and this is actually a different story. Case in point: my Robert affection has already taken a couple of blows. I defended Cat up one side and down the other -- because I hate it when women characters are held to such different standards then male characters -- and truth be told, I'm not really liking her on the page at present.

I'd been really braced for "Okay, so the thing I need to keep an open mind about is going to be Jaime Lannister." The guy I saw on the screen was not the character I saw kind of a lot of people reacting to for a good four seasons. I saw a guy who tried to murder Bran with no perceivable threats. Had a truly troubling relationship with his sister, while appearing to hate her and everything, as opposed to being troubled by his own actions. Who did things like stab someone through the damned eye, specifically as a tool to goad another person into a fight. A guy who taunted Catelyn about her losses and was so callous he was just grotesque to me. Who then murdered one of his own relatives again, as a tool or prop (that level of callousness is something I cannot abide in a character).

I was so ready to wear my "Okay, I'm going to have to accept being wrong." garments and just take it on the chin. I probably still will, but thus far? That's been a complete no show. I can't anticipate for other people what their "I'm prepared for....huh. Well....ah shit." on other things.

Will you be willing, in your unique position, to tell them spoiler-free your dominant impressions from transitionning to the books?

Well above this is the too long/didn't read answer, but basically that just wouldn't work for them.

Edited June 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

Delta1212 · June 24, 2015

I'll admit to being similarly semi-spoiled about the Red Wedding when I first read it, but in a "There is a thing called the Red Wedding and it is a thing" kind of way. When I got to that point in the books, I knew that both Edmure's wedding and Joffrey's wedding were coming up, and I wasn't 100% sure which one was going to turn out to be the Red Wedding. My initial thought was that maybe Joffrey got killed at his wedding or something else along those lines was going to happen, but once there were two weddings lined up, I was reduced to nail-biting because I didn't know which one was going to turn into a disaster (ha).

So the whole time I was reading about the wedding at the Twins, I was bouncing back and forth between seriously hoping that this wasn't the Red Wedding and having a deepening sinking feeling that it was. Looking back, I find it funny how much my brain just outright rejected everything that was going on, but that's starting to get into thoughts best saved for later books, I think.

Edit: I really enjoyed one reviewer that thought Tyrion and Sansa's wedding was the Red Wedding on the show, and went on at some length about how it was just as tense and horrible as he'd been led to expect. That was a real kick until, of course, a huge crowd rushed into the comments to berated them about how "this wasn't the Red Wedding!" which just, Jesus, can't you let someone get misdirected for like two seconds so it's more of a surprise when it happens? I mean, that was like episode 8 or something that season, wasn't it?

Edited June 24, 2015 by Delta1212

ambi76 · June 24, 2015

Brynden Tully, eh? Okay, can I just stick with calling him Blackfish?

Heh. That's fine. Most folks just call him Blackfish anyway, not at least because they're almost as many Brandons/Bryndens in the story than Roberts. I'm a weird nerd though, and often use the proper name of a ASOIAF character despite them being much more associated with their nickname. I almost always call the Hound Sandor, the Mountain Gregor and Littlefinger Petyr too and was really thrown on re-read when Sansa (minor Clash or Storms stuff)

used Horror and Slobber unironically for the Redwyne twins.

Edited June 24, 2015 by ambi76

stillshimpy · June 24, 2015

I'll admit to being similarly semi-spoiled about the Red Wedding when I first read it, but in a "There is a thing called the Red Wedding and it is a thing"

I didn't connect the word Red to blood on any level, so I wasn't expecting there to be a massacre anywhere, at all. In fact, I thought Cersei was going to be forced to marry again. I knew it was a thing, but I only got the sense of "there will be a twist! M. Night Shyamalan in the house!" type of thing. I was not thinking "Wow, the body count will be stunning and I the horror I feel now will only be slightly eclipsed by what Arya ends up having to see." I

So much of Arya's story was the reason I thought this was horror story, by the way. I don't actually recall what I thought about Tyrion marrying Sansa in terms of the Red Wedding mention I saw, just because it seemed unlikely that was anyone's idea of big twist. I have to admit, to this moment, that was just mainly a weird thing to do in the story. I had a hard time understanding why Tywin thought it would help with anything from the North, because marrying her off to someone deemed "a grotesque" within the actual story seemed more likely to make the North feel insulted, to my mind. I thought it would hurt more than it would help. So I wasn't thinking "There it is!" as much as "What the hell was that?!?"

That was a real kick until, of course, a huge crowd rushed into the comments to berated them about how "this wasn't the Red Wedding!"

Yeah, the whole thing with being taken to task or scolded for getting something wrong was the thing that really caught me off-guard the first time it happened. I totally understood why people wanted to leap in on the Jon's mom thing, "you guys guessed it, good job!" seems like a natural thing to me. "Hey, you're having fun in there, I like fun...I'll join the fun!" is just something I totally get.

But the person who seemed sort of angry that I was reading Cersei's take on Ned wrong really caught me off-guard. I never even replied to the PM because I didn't know what to say, "Uh....I'm ...sorry? I didn't mean to do whatever is I did to you? You seem upset and if I caused that, it was unintentional" But I think it's difficult to know things, "Listen, the animosity between these two families is something you clearly aren't getting and you're wrong. Stop it. You are really prone to going on for some time and you're ....wrong. Just stop. It's exhausting." seems to be the spirit behind it, which I can more easily understand.

I guess it's just difficult to watch someone be wrong and then have a few dozen people follow along and go in the wrong directions, because it stops being interesting when the direction is just too darned wrong, or too many people are talking about it.

So I can see that aspect, I just don't get the preemptive irritation. I guess I could get it if there had been four pages of speculation, all of which a person was expected to read, that irking someone....and maybe that really is the source of the preemptive irritation. 'oh jeez, not again, I am NOT going to read 100 posts about that...gah."

Edited June 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

Protar · June 24, 2015

I guess it's just difficult to watch someone be wrong and then have a few dozen people follow along and go in the wrong directions, because it stops being interesting when the direction is just too darned wrong, or too many people are talking about it.

So I can see that aspect.

Have you ever watched let's plays of Portal? Or any other puzzle game? Sometimes the Unsullied thread was like watching one of those :P

Delta1212 · June 24, 2015

I think some people just really lack patience for people who don't know things they do. And while I do totally get the frustration inherent in having that little voice in the back of your head screaming "No! That's wrong!" I think learning when to act on that and when to hold back and let people figure it out for themselves is rather important and not nearly common enough.

On the subject of the many repeated names, I actually like that a lot. People in this world are given names that make sense. Where most fiction tends to give basically everyone a different name in order to differentiate characters, in real life, there is a lot of repetition, especially within families.

It makes sense for Ned and Jon Arryn to both name their first born sons after Robert, a man they are both very close to and, as the new king, you'd want to honor. It makes sense that Ned would give his other son the name of the other man he was closest to in the world, and it makes sense that his other two eventual sons are then named after his closest male blood relatives.

There is a lot of naming of characters after people in power or historical figures, and that leads to a lot of repeated names, both as children share the name with the original inspiration for it and with others who drew from the same inspiration. I think that's quite realistic, and I appreciate the thought that actually goes into what people would likely name their kids in various circumstances and how that reveals the politics of the people involved.

But I've always contended that Martin's very best worldbuilding went into the creation and interplay of his various political dynasties and familial relations. I look at his family trees and and histories as being akin to Tolkien's languages and myths: the detailed backbone on which the rest of the world and story is built.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Delta1212

plurie · June 24, 2015

Boy, it's a good thing they got Mark Addy for Robert, because the Small Council meeting where they decide to kill Dany was not endearing stuff for Robert's character. I think the best "Oh wow, so they made that up?" scene so far was the "Which is mightier five or one?" conversation, which was beautifully played all around and was the first glimpse into what the hell had happened between Robert and Cersei that created such a mess. So...they never did have a child together? This season when the witch is telling Cersei about the three children she'll have, it wasn't the show thinking the viewers would have forgotten about the first boy, it was that the scene contained information that was made up for the show? Still not great that they seemingly forgot about it (they actually usually have an assistant whose job it is to catch continuity errors in scripts) , but more understandable.

I'm STILL not sure that Cersei was telling the truth about the baby she and Robert had on the show. If it was stillborn, I guess Maggy the Frog's prophecy could still be true, as it would be if Cersei was lying to Cat.

Show Cersei is a lot more sympathetic than book Cersei, and, IMO, more realistic.

Delta1212 · June 24, 2015

Oh, and that "five and one" scene is another one that they filmed after the fact because they needed to pad the episode by a couple of minutes. I personally think it wound up being one of the best of the first season.

ambi76 · June 24, 2015

Oh, and that "five and one" scene is another one that they filmed after the fact because they needed to pad the episode by a couple of minutes. I personally think it wound up being one of the best of the first season.

It's an absolutely fantastic scene and I'm not exactly a fan of D&D's original stuff otherwise.

Show Cersei is a lot more sympathetic than book Cersei, and, IMO, more realistic.

Show Cersei is less of a fantasy trope I guess but then I for one am really digging

(totally bonkers AFFC Cersei)

although I seem to be in the minority of fandom here.

Edited June 24, 2015 by ambi76

stillshimpy · June 24, 2015

'm STILL not sure that Cersei was telling the truth about the baby she and Robert had on the show. If it was stillborn, I guess Maggy the Frog's prophecy could still be true, as it would be if Cersei was lying to Cat.
Show Cersei is a lot more sympathetic than book Cersei, and, IMO, more realistic.

Well, the baby was mentioned in the Five and One scene also, and I fully agree. That isn't just one of my favorite scenes from the first season, that is one of my favorite scenes from the show altogether. For one thing, it did add a lot of dimension to both characters for me. It gave Robert an intellectual process and life that even his closest friend didn't realize was there. It added a lot of depth to his characterization and it also helped explain how Robert ever got into that position in the first place.

Lots of big men can wield a mean weapon, but it actually takes a fairly skilled tactician to win wars. I remember my husband being so excited by a book I got him about Joan of Arc, not because he has even a passing interest in saints....he doesn't, he's a lapsed Catholic....but because he was so hopeful that there would be an in-depth exploration of the tactics she used to lead in battle, which was supposed to be her real gift. Unfortunately, the hyper specifics of those battles are actually lost to time and instead, only the legend of her tactical prowess survived.

Anyway, that scene was so great because it showed the areas in which Robert did think things through in a way that had nothing to do with "Argh! Hulk! Smash! Kill Targ! Smash!" and everything to do with, "Guess what I have a responsibility to all these damned people. I hate it. I try to avoid it, and I'm a crap peace-time king...but the peace is held because I deeply get war."

The repeated names thing is super realistic, by the way. It's a historically accurate thing for our world, but the show made the right call in changing it up a bit, I thought.

ETA: Also, thank you so much for the links to the maps, guys. At the time I was more of the "Hey, I don't poo-poo it, but I'm not actually a map sort of person....I'm good with just the descriptions...." and we have officially reached the point in the tale where I needed to go look at maps to really get the scope down. Thanks again.

Edited June 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

Delta1212 · June 24, 2015

I think you're probably right about the name thing being a good call, although there is one instance where I think they might have been a little overly cautious about the audience's ability to keep track of similarly named characters, but that's not for a while yet.

And yeah, I was (very mildly) irked by the way Cersei's "little black haired boy" scene kind of fouled up the prophecy, but at that point, I honestly don't think the show runners were fully expecting to make it to season 3, let alone that far, and they made any early decision to avoid doing prophecies, dreams and flashbacks, all of which later pulled a Bran and went completely out the window.

They've talked a bit about how their early mentality was ""If we can just make it to season 3 and do the Red Wedding" without putting a lot of thought into what came next. Once that was clearly going to happen, I think they had a bit of an "Oh shit, we're actually going to be able to finish this story" moment and had to really start planning for the long haul instead of just adapting whatever was on the page at the point they were at.

They actually had a sit down with GRRM at that point and got a bit of an outline from him on where each character was heading and the end points for the major plotlines of the story, and I think around season 3, and especially in season 4, you can start to see them transition to laying groundwork for stuff that is coming two, three seasons down the line.

There's been a bit of tea leaf reading within the fandom trying to work out the implications for the end of the series from the choices that D&D have decided to make in terms of what has been cut, what has been left in and what things have been condensed or transferred to other characters.

benteen · June 24, 2015

Agreed about Five and One. That's the kind of great stuff that D&D are capable of.

On the Cat and Mya Stone scene, she does seem to realize how ridiculous she's being with Mya and I swear I could remember reading that something about Jon Snow made her ashamed. I took that as acknowledgement that she was ashamed of the way she treated Jon the last time they were together. Did I read that right?

Mya Stone · June 24, 2015

Hee hee, glad you met my namesake, shimpy! I actually still think cutting Mya was a travesty, myself. ;)

stillshimpy · June 24, 2015

On the Cat and Mya Stone scene, she does seem to realize how ridiculous she's being with Mya and I swear I could remember reading that something about Jon Snow made her ashamed. I took that as acknowledgement that she was ashamed of the way she treated Jon the last time they were together. Did I read that right?

Well she didn't feel shame, at least not in that moment, she felt guilt. Her thought process is described as thinking about him and feeling "guilt" combined with anger, I believe. It was the word guilt that stood out to me also. I mean, usually parsing a word choice by an author is really nitpicking, particularly because guilt can indicate remorse. It can also just indicate an awareness of having acted badly without any shame or remorse.

Again, normally chasing down words at that level is just splitting hairs, but Martin clearly has an extensive vocabulary at his disposal and I think he chose the lesser of the two words in terms of a feeling of personal responsibility intentionally. I don't think Cat felt guilt for her reaction to Mya, as much as she was aware it was not a reasonable reaction...but it was specifically because it stirred up the anger and guilt that anything associate with Jon brought about.

I think she'd have to feel ashamed of herself. Jon does refer to things like "When he was little those same words would have sent him running away, crying in confusion and pain" (or something like that) ...which indicates he knows that from firsthand experience. Cat is a decent enough human being to actually know that she behaved poorly and even if some of that is the result of Ned asking more than was reasonable to ask of a young woman, who was also his wife, I think she'd still feel bad about hurting Jon's feelings. Apparently not enough to stop entirely though.

Plus, there's just no way a grown person can say something like, "It should have been you" to another person in regards to a crippling accident and not realize "I am so far over the line, the line is dot on the horizon behind me..."

But yeah, everyone has faults and Martin certainly assigned one to Cat that is difficult to overcome and forgive....or even see past at points. It's clearly such a kneejerk thing for Cat that it isn't voluntary, regardless of how petty it is. She's admiring Mya in that moment, asking her name because of that....and then because of a mental association she has a hard time holding on to her smile ...but she does....because whereas she's petty, she's presumably not that much of an ass.

It was the end of the "What a neat, plucky, wonderful young woman" type of inner thoughts and instead she thinks things like the young man who is in love with her wouldn't marry her because whereas he might truly love her, his family wouldn't allow that....because she's illegitimate.

Delta1212 · June 24, 2015

While we're at this section, there was a long-running freak out among a certain segment of the fanbase because the Blackfish didn't show up at the Eyrie. And then still didn't appear in the next season.

Everyone was beginning to think he might have just been straight up cut and a lot of his fans were flipping out for a long time because of it.

(Almost every character in the series, great and small, has some fans, but the "will-they-won't-they" nature of whether the Blackfish was ever going to be cast made that one stand out)

stillshimpy · June 24, 2015

Wow, what did his fans think when he did show up, because I have to say that part of my "Oh my god, just have a straight-forward conversation and be done with it. Why exactly are you beating around the bush about 'you may not find her as helpful as you think' 'she's afraid' rather than plainly speaking to Catelyn, "listen, I don't even know what has happened to your sister, but she's not well and she's not going to be of any help". Part of my frustration stemmed from that fact that the merry, smiling, "we ran to him as children for comfort" character I was just introduced to, has only a nodding acquaintance with the character in the series.

I mean, the guy I met on scene would have been roaring, "She's bloody useless, Cat. Flew over the cuckoo's nest. Lost her damned and then went out and borrow more mind to lose....which she then did. Also, she's yet to wean her son, if you need further "she's lost her mind" proof." This is the guy I met when he snatched the bow and arrow from Edmure's ineffective grasp, pretty much called a dud a dud in the same moment, and set fire to the corpse of a relative. As you do.

I was not expecting "Oh....who's Brynden? Mild dude with a ready smile and fondness for....holy shit...? Is that the same character?"

Edited June 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

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