Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Delta1212]

Has a decision been made on when the Tales of Dunk and Egg will be read?

My personal suggestion is that it waits until after the fifth book.

My reason is there is a certain question I had in my mind from the AGoT that kind of niggled away until the events of ADwD. I read the 5 books as a block then only went back to read ToDaE after I'd seen a few seasons of the show. There is one plot device in there I found to be all but a confirmation of my suspicions due to GRRM's writing pattern.

I am fine with whatever is decided, but as shimpy hasn't yet voiced the question that I have seen, I am interested to see how things roll out.

The issue:

Is Varys a Blackfyre?. It would explain his head-shaving. The 'power in a king's blood' explains the sorcery story. It potentially explains his rise and placement in the Small Council from being a slave boy.

I didn't even know who that group was until I started reading up on fan theories. I don't think it's really a reason to hold off on reading them until after book five, and I think that there is a good case to be made in favor of reading them beforehand (based on what I know as someone who hasn't read them, obviously) in that

the reveal that the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven will have more impact if you know who that is and enough about him to spot that that's a reveal, which I did not on either count.

My vote is still for reading the short stories after Storm. I think that's a natural break point for them.

[Reader of Books]

I didn't even know who that group was until I started reading up on fan theories. 

 

I actually had thoughts he might be a distant Targayen until the whole JonCon and Young Griff thing played out.

[nksarmi]

You know, you would think someone would have raised Joffrey with the understanding that while you can get away with a lot as a king - your "father" only got to be king because three kingdoms decided to rebel and fight a war to usurp the real king because he started killing off the wrong freaking people.  And then later if he still didn't get it - hey you little crazy prick, killing off Northern lords got the Targs conquered - maybe you should let Ned live - especially when you have uncles, a Targ queen, and living siblings who could all replace you.

[mac123x]

Tywin did tell Tyrion that Joffrey needed "a sharp lesson."  It would have been interesting to see what Tywin came up with.  Too bad Joffrey died before he could receive it.  If you buy the "Tywin was in on the murder" theory then it becomes an incredibly sharp lesson, though not particularly effective as a teaching tool since the student is, you know, dead.

[Holmbo]

Tywin did tell Tyrion that Joffrey needed "a sharp lesson." It would have been interesting to see what Tywin came up with. Too bad Joffrey died before he could receive it. If you buy the "Tywin was in on the murder" theory then it becomes an incredibly sharp lesson, though not particularly effective as a teaching tool since the student is, you know, dead.

I don't get why people would even consider it possible that Tywin was in on it. No way he'd do something that make the Lannisters look that vulnerable. If he killed Joffrey (which I don't think he would) he'd do it discreetly. Pass it off as an illness.

[WindyNights]

Tywin wouldn't kill Joffrey. He couldn't even kill Tyrion.

[Alayne Stone]

I don't know if you noticed it Shimpy, but the "We don't kill little girls in Dorne" line was a show contrivance for Oberyn. That entire scene never occurred in the books at all.

 

Though, little does Shimpy know ... Ellaria is a completely different creature in the books from show Ellaria. And Myrcella's not even dead. I'm very curious to get her opinion on the whole Queenmaker plot.

[Delta1212]

I don't know if you noticed it Shimpy, but the "We don't kill little girls in Dorne" line was a show contrivance for Oberyn. That entire scene never occurred in the books at all.

Though, little does Shimpy know ... Ellaria is a completely different creature in the books from show Ellaria. And Myrcella's not even dead. I'm very curious to get her opinion on the whole Queenmaker plot.

Well,

she's not dead yet

[stillshimpy]

I don't know if you noticed it Shimpy, but the "We don't kill little girls in Dorne" line was a show contrivance for Oberyn. That entire scene never occurred in the books at all.

 

Yes, in the Show they clearly went for Uncomplicated Good for Oberyn's character makeup.  I can see why they did that.  It really upped the horror of his death by a lot.  Plus, it kept with the established rules of the show 'verse: 

 

Only the Good Die Horribly. 

 

Book Oberyn is simply a player of the power structure game in his own right.  He isn't even really pretending that it is otherwise, from the first moments he talks to Tyrion, they have a fairly long "I'm here to kill Lannisters"  "We'll kill you right back and more importantly; first" exchange. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

I think GRRM mentioned that he was surprised by his Oberyn's popularity.

Anyways I wouldn't say show Oberyn is an uncomplicated good. He practically lives in a brothel and makes some really creepy advances to the brothel owner. He comes off as sexually predatory.

[Haleth]

But...but... It gave the show an opportunity to show more boobs!

<bangs head on desk>

[netlyon2]

Alayne Stone, that [book/show]

regarding Ellaria Sand was the proverbial straw that caused me to give up the show after Season 4.  I was already considering doing so, and when I heard that rumor regarding one of my favorite characters, I was done.  I know a lot of people will say that it was a minor change to a minor character, but I just really connected with her point of view, which was refreshing to hear from another character after Catelyn's death.  I also am the rare creature who likes the Dorne storylines, so there's that. 

 

Windy Nights, I don't know about Tywin not being able to kill Joffrey because he couldn't bring himself to kill Tyrion.  While Tywin couldn't bring himself to directly bring about Tyrion's death, he didn't have a problem plopping his inexperienced son in the van heading up a group of clan fighters whom he expected to break at the first opportunity.  Also, the stakes were much higher with Joffrey, an active nutcase king who was a loose cannon poised to wreck Tywin's carefully laid plans, than they were with Tyrion, who was just an embarrassment that was difficult to dispose of by marriage.

 

I do agree that Tywin would have made Joffrey's death look like an accident.  Then again, there are many who hold that Joffrey's death would have been considered accidental if Cersei hadn't flipped out and accused Tyrion (based on Joffrey's bullying during the reception, which only Littlefinger might have predicted).  Without that suspicion, there's no "autopsy" performed to reveal that there was nothing blocking Joffrey's throat.  Hmmmmm, I don't know where I stand on this one.

[WindyNights]

play with her ass

(Never forget)

[jellyroll2]

I can't wait until shimpy reads

Tywin's death so we can talk about the theory that Oberyn was poisoning Tywin. That Tywin was a dead man anyway but Tyrion just killed him faster.

And as for the minor character in the Wall arc, she becomes slightly more prominent later and is just awesome and badass and smart and yes. Lol

Edited October 27, 2015 by jellyroll2

[WindyNights]

Alayne Stone, that [book/show]

regarding Ellaria Sand was the proverbial straw that caused me to give up the show after Season 4. I was already considering doing so, and when I heard that rumor regarding one of my favorite characters, I was done. I know a lot of people will say that it was a minor change to a minor character, but I just really connected with her point of view, which was refreshing to hear from another character after Catelyn's death. I also am the rare creature who likes the Dorne storylines, so there's that.

Windy Nights, I don't know about Tywin not being able to kill Joffrey because he couldn't bring himself to kill Tyrion. While Tywin couldn't bring himself to directly bring about Tyrion's death, he didn't have a problem plopping his inexperienced son in the van heading up a group of clan fighters whom he expected to break at the first opportunity. Also, the stakes were much higher with Joffrey, an active nutcase king who was a loose cannon poised to wreck Tywin's carefully laid plans, than they were with Tyrion, who was just an embarrassment that was difficult to dispose of by marriage.

I do agree that Tywin would have made Joffrey's death look like an accident. Then again, there are many who hold that Joffrey's death would have been considered accidental if Cersei hadn't flipped out and accused Tyrion (based on Joffrey's bullying during the reception, which only Littlefinger might have predicted). Without that suspicion, there's no "autopsy" performed to reveal that there was nothing blocking Joffrey's throat. Hmmmmm, I don't know where I stand on this one.

what I should've said is that Tywin couldn't actively bring himself to kill Tyrion. I mean of course he hopes that he dies but he wouldn't plan to off him.

And if Tywin wanted to kill Joff he'd do it after Marge popped a few sons out for him. He wouldn't do it during the wedding

[nksarmi]

Regarding Dorne....

 

The queen making plot that is hinted at here by Oberyn is the ONLY plot I liked about Dorne in the books. I spent all of season five hoping all this talk of "killing" Myrcella was BS and we were still going to get that plot. Hell, I had hoped up until the moment she fell down poisoned, they had just changed it so that it was Doran's idea and that's what he sent Tyrstane to KL to do. And I STILL hold out the tiniest bit of hope that someone on that damn boat has some antidote because I find it so hard to accept that the best part of Dorne - that they crown WOMEN over younger brothers is being left out of the show.

[polyhymnia]

I finished KotSK (or whatever we're abbreviating it to) over the weekend.  I had read a few summaries before (as well as TWoIAF) because I am someone that often enjoys backstory more than actual story, but it was nice reading all three D & E stories together at once.

 

I think in some ways that the momentum of this story gets a little stymied because of the power of the red wedding followed so closely by the purple wedding - those are both tough acts to follow - and agree that the show suffered from having a season break between them.  I was spoiled a tiny bit for the Red Wedding (I knew there was such a thing but not really what it entailed) but was just slack-jawed that they killed Nero/Caligula/Joffrey at almost the same time.  For the show Mr. Polyhymnia was spoiled for the purple wedding (he knew from pretty close to the beginning of the series that Joffrey died because he was looking online on info about Valyrian steel swords) but not the Red.

 

I forgot that there was more ambiguity about who killed Joffrey in the books.

[bobbybuilderton]

Regarding Dorne....

 

The queen making plot that is hinted at here by Oberyn is the ONLY plot I liked about Dorne in the books. I spent all of season five hoping all this talk of "killing" Myrcella was BS and we were still going to get that plot. Hell, I had hoped up until the moment she fell down poisoned, they had just changed it so that it was Doran's idea and that's what he sent Tyrstane to KL to do. And I STILL hold out the tiniest bit of hope that someone on that damn boat has some antidote because I find it so hard to accept that the best part of Dorne - that they crown WOMEN over younger brothers is being left out of the show.

When you abandon hope that they will do a storyline justice, you feel unburdened. Trust me. It's kind of strange that adopting a negative view makes you feel better....

 

Also,

I liked Dorne in the books. Just didn't care for it on a first read because I didn't care about the new characters and kinda sped through it. As a result I didn't see how it fit at all. After I finished book 5 and reread the two understanding who was who and what they were after, I liked it MUCH better.  I'm not even a Daenerys fan and Doran's "Fire and Blood" still gets me so excited. It would have been very cinematic imo, but apparently nearly nothing about books 4 and 5 were cinematic (read:shocking) enough to make it into the show

Edited October 27, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[nksarmi]

More or Dorne.....

 

Ok I do like one thing other than the queen making plot - but that IS my favorite part. I also like that Doran has this long game plan that he has just been laying in wait to spring. I was SO excited when they cast Alexander Siddig (yes I'm a DS9 nerd) to play that part and I couldn't wait to see him play his long game. And then it just. didn't. happen - like at all.

I mean I don't really care that Quentyn was left out because I was all kinds of irritated that GRRM added him in just to kill him off. And losing Arieena kind of sucked because she really is an interesting character, but I wouldn't have missed either of them if they had kept the master-planner/schemer Doran who always planned to put a Targ back on the Iron Throne. That and I thought it was a brilliant way to show how Dany already had an in even if she didn't know it. Really not sure what disappointed me more - the lack of Riverlands story or what we got of Dorne.

[bobbybuilderton]

More or Dorne.....

 

Ok I do like one thing other than the queen making plot - but that IS my favorite part. I also like that Doran has this long game plan that he has just been laying in wait to spring. I was SO excited when they cast Alexander Siddig (yes I'm a DS9 nerd) to play that part and I couldn't wait to see him play his long game. And then it just. didn't. happen - like at all.

I mean I don't really care that Quentyn was left out because I was all kinds of irritated that GRRM added him in just to kill him off. And losing Arieena kind of sucked because she really is an interesting character, but I wouldn't have missed either of them if they had kept the master-planner/schemer Doran who always planned to put a Targ back on the Iron Throne. That and I thought it was a brilliant way to show how Dany already had an in even if she didn't know it. Really not sure what disappointed me more - the lack of Riverlands story or what we got of Dorne.

I'd say they're equally disappointing, since we had one because of the other. IMO they have a lack of understanding of what makes stories resonate with people and they are limited when it comes to something other than "wow how horrible/shocking/epic." I mean just look at Troy's rotten tomatoes consensus: A brawny, entertaining spectacle, but lacking emotional resonance.

[Alayne Stone]

netlyon2 ...

Ellaria is one of my favorite minor characters too. And her voice is so important, because she really does kind of serve as the voice piece for the fact that vengeance is a never ending cycle of death and misery. I completely understand your feelings regarding this. All I can say is the only consolation I took from the show and this plot line (and it is quite literally the *only* consolation I took) is the fact that show Ellaria is soooooo different that it just doesn't even feel like the same character. My other favorite minor character in the books is Tyene and the show just killed that as well. I'm going to wait to comment any more on the Queenmaker plot until Shimpy gets there. But I'm honestly not surprised that it was cut. Why would the show bother with the crowning of an older sister over a younger brother when they didn't even keep the true female heir to Dorne in the show? Given the way it all went down though, it's probably just for the best. It's sad that it has come to that. "I'm glad LS and Arienne aren't in the show because at least the show can't ruin them." And yes, yes. I know. Myrcella's not dead yet. Gold shall be their crowns and gold shall be their shrouds, blah, blah ... I get it. Myrcella's doomed just like Tommen.  

 

Yikes. Did not realize that using paragraphs would break the spoiler tag. Hopefully no one saw the rest of this post before I was able to edit. :(

Edited October 28, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Haleth]

More or Dorne.....

 

Ok I do like one thing other than the queen making plot - but that IS my favorite part. I also like that Doran has this long game plan that he has just been laying in wait to spring. I was SO excited when they cast Alexander Siddig (yes I'm a DS9 nerd) to play that part and I couldn't wait to see him play his long game. And then it just. didn't. happen - like at all.

I mean I don't really care that Quentyn was left out because I was all kinds of irritated that GRRM added him in just to kill him off. And losing Arieena kind of sucked because she really is an interesting character, but I wouldn't have missed either of them if they had kept the master-planner/schemer Doran who always planned to put a Targ back on the Iron Throne. That and I thought it was a brilliant way to show how Dany already had an in even if she didn't know it. Really not sure what disappointed me more - the lack of Riverlands story or what we got of Dorne.

I know!

I love that Doran has tried to hedge his bets, allying his children all over the map, even if they don't all work out, someone us going to end up on top.

. The book is soooo much more complex.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I'd say they're equally disappointing, since we had one because of the other. IMO they have a lack of understanding of what makes stories resonate with people and they are limited when it comes to something other than "wow how horrible/shocking/epic." I mean just look at Troy's rotten tomatoes consensus: A brawny, entertaining spectacle, but lacking emotional resonance.

The 25th Hour and City Of Thieves. Look into them. Benioff has written some very good original stuff. He is not without talent.

[bobbybuilderton]

The 25th Hour and City Of Thieves. Look into them. Benioff has written some very good original stuff. He is not without talent.

Nor did I just say he is. I said I think they are lacking in some ways that make the stories they write uninteresting for me.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I finally caught up with everything. Just wanted to say that I followed the Unsullied from season 1, and the 'spitballs' that you guys came up with were the best. Shimpy, reading your opinions on the books are equally enjoyable. Can't wait to see your thoughts on the end of ASOS and the 4th and 5th books. I may even join in on a 'Dunk and Egg' read through, which I also would recommend reading prior to AFFC.

Nor did I just say he is. I said I think they are lacking in some ways that make the stories they write uninteresting for me.

Don't want to hijack this thread, just thought I'd mention his original work, as I feel it is quite good, better than his adaptations. I enjoy the show for what it is, but I can't disagree with many of the criticisms lobbied at it.

[mac123x]

And if Tywin wanted to kill Joff he'd do it after Marge popped a few sons out for him. He wouldn't do it during the wedding

 

That's an excellent point.  Book!Joffrey is only 13, and Tywin also commented that he still had time to whip him into shape to be a good king.  So he'd probably take a couple of years to evaluate whether he'd be able to reform Joffrey (once Cercei is married off and her bad influence is gone) before deciding that he's irredeemable and quietly get rid of him via a "hunting accident" or something.  Then put either Joffrey's spawn (assuming any were born by then) or Tommen on the throne and continue to rule through a minor-king.

[Brn2bwild]

Regarding Dorne....

 

The queen making plot that is hinted at here by Oberyn is the ONLY plot I liked about Dorne in the books. I spent all of season five hoping all this talk of "killing" Myrcella was BS and we were still going to get that plot. Hell, I had hoped up until the moment she fell down poisoned, they had just changed it so that it was Doran's idea and that's what he sent Tyrstane to KL to do. And I STILL hold out the tiniest bit of hope that someone on that damn boat has some antidote because I find it so hard to accept that the best part of Dorne - that they crown WOMEN over younger brothers is being left out of the show.

 

Maybe I'm naive to ask, but (spoilers for book and show)

did they confirm that Trystane was the heir, or did we assume it because he's the only one we've seen?  Maybe Arianne is hiding out at the Water Gardens (since I don't think the location in Season 5 was supposed to be them), estranged from her father, and Doran will seek her out once Trystane is in danger.

[Delta1212]

Maybe I'm naive to ask, but (spoilers for book and show)

did they confirm that Trystane was the heir, or did we assume it because he's the only one we've seen? Maybe Arianne is hiding out at the Water Gardens (since I don't think the location in Season 5 was supposed to be them), estranged from her father, and Doran will seek her out once Trystane is in danger.

Pretty sure that was confirmed.

[Lady S.]

Maybe I'm naive to ask, but (spoilers for book and show)

did they confirm that Trystane was the heir, or did we assume it because he's the only one we've seen?  Maybe Arianne is hiding out at the Water Gardens (since I don't think the location in Season 5 was supposed to be them), estranged from her father, and Doran will seek her out once Trystane is in danger.

Yes,

when they have the family meeting with Jaime and Myrcella, Doran talks about Trys learning to rule Dorne. I also think the s5 location was identified as the Water Gardens, it's Sunspear we haven't seen yet.

 

Then again, there are many who hold that Joffrey's death would have been considered accidental if Cersei hadn't flipped out and accused Tyrion (based on Joffrey's bullying during the reception, which only Littlefinger might have predicted).  Without that suspicion, there's no "autopsy" performed to reveal that there was nothing blocking Joffrey's throat.  Hmmmmm, I don't know where I stand on this one.

I don't really think Joffrey choking at his wedding feast would be Tywin's preference either, his death would still be a public spectacle ruining his own wedding, a 77-course extravaganza which was supposed to be a huge Lannister celebration. The idiotic boy king choking on his own wedding pie could still be an embarrassing death, for the same reason that Jaime didn't want to be the first Lannister to drown in a bathtub. There was no real reason given why he couldn't have died peacefully in his sleep, Tywin could have easily had Pycelle give him an overdose of the sleeping medicine, so why let him die any other way? Edited October 28, 2015 by Lady S.

[Reader of Books]

I don't really think Joffrey choking at his wedding feast would be Tywin's preference either,

 

Yep. I can't see Tywin taking any action on this particular front until there was an heir and spare.

[stillshimpy]

There was both an heir and a spare: Tommen and Myrcella, although Tywin would only care about Tommen, in all likelihood.  Plus, Tywin would know from the Targaryens: madness tends to be genetic and the blood will out, as they say. 

 

But I actually don't have a firm opinion on whether or not Tywin was aware of, allowed to happen, or involved in killing Joffrey.  In the books they play off the central problem of Tyrion's alleged plot to murder his nephew as if that problem doesn't exist:  If you're going to stoop to poison, there's no reason in the entire fucking world to make it such a spectacle.  Tyrion managed to poison Cersei once -- which is part of the reason she likely believes he really did it -- but if you want to murder someone there has to be an easier way than in front of everyone.   

 

The books are just rolling with the "sure, he'd choose that moment to enact his plan" but since we only get Tyrion's POV , it's really difficult to tell if Tywin is equally troubled by the "dumb ways to commit regicide: in front of thousands of people" and just goes with the "clearly, he thought The Red Viper would be blamed", because that has a whole host or problems with it too.  

 

Anyway, I currently don't know, but in the Show it was always difficult to believe that Tywin actually thought Tyrion did it,  particularly because Tywin and Cersei participated in framing him with fabricated evidence.  As for not being willing to kill Joffrey:  yeah, but this way he wouldn't actually be doing the killing, which is a distinction that Tywin seems to think important.  Having him lead men in battle with the clear intent that he die and get out of the way?  That was fine.   Let him die in the dark with little attendance after the Blackwater?  That seemed fair game to Tywin too.   So it's hard to say. 

 

 

 

Anyways I wouldn't say show Oberyn is an uncomplicated good. He practically lives in a brothel and makes some really creepy advances to the brothel owner. He comes off as sexually predatory.

 

Yeah, I don't agree with that assessment.  He's buying what people are selling and the brothel owner was ...just another prostitute.  He just happened to be male and Oberyn's bisexual.  He wasn't Purely Good, just fairly Uncomplicated Good: The dude really liked sex of a lot of varieties and otherwise was there on a mission of justice.  

 

Not the same in the books.  

 

By the way, I'm up super early and read a Danaerys chapter and there's something that is bugging me:  Okay, so first off, Jorah spied for longer in the Books and Varys wanted Dany watched, but not harmed.   The Show never got around to divulging that, which I guess they just didn't want to straight up confirm for all time, "Yes, Varys is a Targ supporter. Or at least he is like Selmy, watching to see which way the coin flipped before committing.  

 

Okay, that's a relatively small detail , but it changes Jorah's character a lot more than it did Varys.  

 

More on that later, but here's the thing that is bothering me:  Summer and Shaggy saw a dragon over Winterfell.  At the time I assumed the stories were on different timelines and that it had to be one of Dany's dragons.....but that's not syncing up at all.   The book is making it clear, it will be years before the dragons are big enough to fly around and across seas. 

 

So did they see the red comet and what everyone else saw as a comet was actually a dragon, woken from stone by some lightbringing knight?  Again, rhetorical question.  Or did the wolves see the metaphor and interpret it literally?  That's been bugging me for a while.  So there's either a stray, random, unaccounted for Dragon just flying around the North, and the only creatures to have noticed it were the wolves, or the wolves see the future?  

I keep waiting for something to reveal "Yeah, they totally saw a dragon ....and so much for it eve being mentioned again so far".   

 

It's just with Melisandre wanting to murder people in order to wake sleeping dragons from stone, I kind of wondered if maybe someone hadn't already.  However, no Northern mentions of "Oh holy shit.  An actual dragon" that seems to be the wrong theory.  

 

Anyway, I must drink some coffee before attempting to think more.  

 

Hi, Impin welcome to the word party :-)

Edited October 28, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

For some reason, I missed or forgot Mel's bit about using king's blood to wake dragons from stone.  Because here's the thing - as much as I don't want to like Mel and I want her to be a villain and all......but isn't that essentially what happened to wake Dany's dragons?   I mean I thought it was the life for a life blood magic thing, but actually when her child died, king's blood was paid to wake dragons from "stone", right?

 

I mean if Mel is right, that puts another check in the column of Dany is the "Prince that was Promised."  But I keep waiting for there to be something wrong with her interpretation like - show spoiler - 

seeing the Boltons defeated and thinking it was Stannis who did it, when it will cleary be someone else - possibly a resurrected Jon.

 

shimpy - so I didn't even catch that the wolves could have seen a dragon over Winterfell on first read.  I am guessing because the only discussion on the show was of the comet (from Osha I believe) that they saw that.  However, Martin certainly gave himself a lot of room to mess with us in later books if he wants to!

[stillshimpy]

For some reason, I missed or forgot Mel's bit about using king's blood to wake dragons from stone.  Because here's the thing - as much as I don't want to like Mel and I want her to be a villain and all......but isn't that essentially what happened to wake Dany's dragons?   I mean I thought it was the life for a life blood magic thing, but actually when her child died, king's blood was paid to wake dragons from "stone", right?

 

Yeah, it startled me in the Book to find out that was why Mel wanted to murder Edric Storm, but that turned out to be the reason.  I'm sure the Show was trying to keep it simpler, but it made Stannis seem bizarrely blood thirsty.  I do think that is part of the reason Balon Greyjoy didn't die in the show.  Since they dropped the "Stannis is trying to wake the dragon from dragonstone" of it all , and they had the Red Wedding and Purple Wedding in different seasons, there didn't appear to be any reason for Stannis to kill Gendry.  "Uh....try some more leeches, you fire addicted fiend?" In the book, the leech deaths are proof that the fire magic will work. 

 

And yes, that is what Dany did.  Drogo, the Witch, and Dany were all in that fire, but that parallel did strike me when it is mentioned in one Davos chapter.  That's why she wanted to burn Edric Storm: to wake the dragon.   Drogo was a Kahl , the Witch was...I don't know if she held a position of power among her people....and of course, Dany is King's Blood (but did not die).   So she clearly didn't wake all the dragons in the land with what she did, if Mel is still trying to wake the one from Dragonstone (and I didn't realize it was meant to be a literal dragon until that plan was outlined).  

 

Which brings me back to the perplexing: "Okay, so then what did the Wolves see?"  Everyone looks up at the sky and sees a blood red comet and takes it as a herald.  The wolves look up and see a dragon over the skies of Winterfell and it's supposed to be one of Bran's dreams, and everything it pared down to wolf-speech, but the thing described is a freaking dragon, not a comet.  

Edited October 28, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

Yeah, it startled me in the Book to find out that was why Mel wanted to murder Edric Storm, but that turned out to be the reason.  I'm sure the Show was trying to keep it simpler, but it made Stannis seem bizarrely blood thirsty.  I do think that is part of the reason Balon Greyjoy didn't die in the show.  Since they dropped the "Stannis is trying to wake the dragon from dragonstone" of it all , and they had the Red Wedding and Purple Wedding in different seasons, there didn't appear to be any reason for Stannis to kill Gendry.  "Uh....try some more leeches, you fire addicted fiend?" In the book, the leech deaths are proof that the fire magic will work. 

 

And yes, that is what Dany did.  Drogo, the Witch, and Dany were all in that fire, but that parallel did strike me when it is mentioned in one Davos chapter.  That's why she wanted to burn Edric Storm: to wake the dragon.   Drogo was a Kahl , the Witch was...I don't know if she held a position of power among her people....and of course, Dany is King's Blood (but did not die).   So she clearly didn't wake all the dragons in the land with what she did, if Mel is still trying to wake the one from Dragonstone (and I didn't realize it was meant to be a literal dragon until that plan was outlined).  

 

Which brings me back to the perplexing: "Okay, so then what did the Wolves see?"  Everyone looks up at the sky and sees a blood red comet and takes it as a herald.  The wolves look up and see a dragon over the skies of Winterfell and it's supposed to be one of Bran's dreams, and everything it pared down to wolf-speech, but the thing described is a freaking dragon, not a comet.  

 

The following is not really a spoiler but a theory based on what you are saying (though I didn't understand the theory until your read through lol) - but just in case:

 

There are fans who think Jon and Dany will end up opposing each other and Jon will ride a dragon that is NOT one of the three Dany currently owns. I also read speculation that he will ride an ice dragon (though I don't know if that matches the wolves vision) and that the title of song of ice and fire refers to Jon and Dany battling on ice and fire dragons. So yea there's that.

Edited October 28, 2015 by nksarmi

[Delta1212]

Yeah, it startled me in the Book to find out that was why Mel wanted to murder Edric Storm, but that turned out to be the reason. I'm sure the Show was trying to keep it simpler, but it made Stannis seem bizarrely blood thirsty. I do think that is part of the reason Balon Greyjoy didn't die in the show. Since they dropped the "Stannis is trying to wake the dragon from dragonstone" of it all , and they had the Red Wedding and Purple Wedding in different seasons, there didn't appear to be any reason for Stannis to kill Gendry. "Uh....try some more leeches, you fire addicted fiend?" In the book, the leech deaths are proof that the fire magic will work.

And yes, that is what Dany did. Drogo, the Witch, and Dany were all in that fire, but that parallel did strike me when it is mentioned in one Davos chapter. That's why she wanted to burn Edric Storm: to wake the dragon. Drogo was a Kahl , the Witch was...I don't know if she held a position of power among her people....and of course, Dany is King's Blood (but did not die). So she clearly didn't wake all the dragons in the land with what she did, if Mel is still trying to wake the one from Dragonstone (and I didn't realize it was meant to be a literal dragon until that plan was outlined).

Which brings me back to the perplexing: "Okay, so then what did the Wolves see?" Everyone looks up at the sky and sees a blood red comet and takes it as a herald. The wolves look up and see a dragon over the skies of Winterfell and it's supposed to be one of Bran's dreams, and everything it pared down to wolf-speech, but the thing described is a freaking dragon, not a comet.

There are a lot of theories about that Winterfell dragon, ranging from a wolffish interpretation of the comet, to a metaphorical dragon made of smoke to a secret dragon living under Winterfell that was responsible for its hot springs.

As for whether the stone dragon at dragon stone is meant to be an actual dragon, I've long thought that a lot of what Melisandre does and says needs to be interpretted through the lens that she really believes Stannis is the chosen one, and that she is also wrong.

So if she thinks the chosen one needs to awaken a stone dragon to claim his throne, and Stannis is sitting on a giant stone dragon, well, there you go.

Meanwhile, Daenerys is sitting across the sea next to three dragons she woke from stone.

So I don't think the Dragonstone dragon is an actual dragon turned to stone, so much as Melisandre is just very wrong about a lot of things.

Once you notice how many people are doing the things she says Stannis is supposed to be doing, and doing them in a way that better fits the description, everything in that plotline makes more sense.

Heck, even Beric Dondarion better fits the description of her chosen one than Stannis, what with being repeatedly resurrected by her god and wielding a flaming sword.

[nksarmi]

How cool would it be if there WAS a dragon at Winterfell and when the last Stark left, he/she left as well?  Brings new meaning to "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell."

[Reader of Books]

Brings new meaning to "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell."

 

My spitball on that was that it had something to do with the coming of the Others and a certain crypt filled with human remains,

[WindyNights]

There was both an heir and a spare: Tommen and Myrcella, although Tywin would only care about Tommen, in all likelihood. Plus, Tywin would know from the Targaryens: madness tends to be genetic and the blood will out, as they say.

But I actually don't have a firm opinion on whether or not Tywin was aware of, allowed to happen, or involved in killing Joffrey. In the books they play off the central problem of Tyrion's alleged plot to murder his nephew as if that problem doesn't exist: If you're going to stoop to poison, there's no reason in the entire fucking world to make it such a spectacle. Tyrion managed to poison Cersei once -- which is part of the reason she likely believes he really did it -- but if you want to murder someone there has to be an easier way than in front of everyone.

The books are just rolling with the "sure, he'd choose that moment to enact his plan" but since we only get Tyrion's POV , it's really difficult to tell if Tywin is equally troubled by the "dumb ways to commit regicide: in front of thousands of people" and just goes with the "clearly, he thought The Red Viper would be blamed", because that has a whole host or problems with it too.

Anyway, I currently don't know, but in the Show it was always difficult to believe that Tywin actually thought Tyrion did it, particularly because Tywin and Cersei participated in framing him with fabricated evidence. As for not being willing to kill Joffrey: yeah, but this way he wouldn't actually be doing the killing, which is a distinction that Tywin seems to think important. Having him lead men in battle with the clear intent that he die and get out of the way? That was fine. Let him die in the dark with little attendance after the Blackwater? That seemed fair game to Tywin too. So it's hard to say.

Yeah, I don't agree with that assessment. He's buying what people are selling and the brothel owner was ...just another prostitute. He just happened to be male and Oberyn's bisexual. He wasn't Purely Good, just fairly Uncomplicated Good: The dude really liked sex of a lot of varieties and otherwise was there on a mission of justice.

Not the same in the books.

By the way, I'm up super early and read a Danaerys chapter and there's something that is bugging me: Okay, so first off, Jorah spied for longer in the Books and Varys wanted Dany watched, but not harmed. The Show never got around to divulging that, which I guess they just didn't want to straight up confirm for all time, "Yes, Varys is a Targ supporter. Or at least he is like Selmy, watching to see which way the coin flipped before committing.

Okay, that's a relatively small detail , but it changes Jorah's character a lot more than it did Varys.

More on that later, but here's the thing that is bothering me: Summer and Shaggy saw a dragon over Winterfell. At the time I assumed the stories were on different timelines and that it had to be one of Dany's dragons.....but that's not syncing up at all. The book is making it clear, it will be years before the dragons are big enough to fly around and across seas.

So did they see the red comet and what everyone else saw as a comet was actually a dragon, woken from stone by some lightbringing knight? Again, rhetorical question. Or did the wolves see the metaphor and interpret it literally? That's been bugging me for a while. So there's either a stray, random, unaccounted for Dragon just flying around the North, and the only creatures to have noticed it were the wolves, or the wolves see the future?

I keep waiting for something to reveal "Yeah, they totally saw a dragon ....and so much for it eve being mentioned again so far".

It's just with Melisandre wanting to murder people in order to wake sleeping dragons from stone, I kind of wondered if maybe someone hadn't already. However, no Northern mentions of "Oh holy shit. An actual dragon" that seems to be the wrong theory.

Anyway, I must drink some coffee before attempting to think more.

Hi, Impin welcome to the word party :-)

Yeah but the brothel owner said he's not for sale anymore and Oberyn kept pressing.

[mac123x]

Which brings me back to the perplexing: "Okay, so then what did the Wolves see?"  Everyone looks up at the sky and sees a blood red comet and takes it as a herald.  The wolves look up and see a dragon over the skies of Winterfell and it's supposed to be one of Bran's dreams, and everything it pared down to wolf-speech, but the thing described is a freaking dragon, not a comet.

 

I'm being really dense.  I don't remember this at all, can someone point me to the book / chapter this is in?  Early Bran chapter in Clash?

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, all I can say is keep your questions of waking dragons from stone as well as the vision Bran had of the dragon over Winterfell in mind as you continue to read the next couple of books. There are several theories pertaining to both and several interpretations. Some people believe the dragon to be a literal thing. Some people believe the dragon(s) to be metaphorical and more related to waking a person from stone. Right now it's all speculation. You're touching on one of many theories that have occupied people for years, but before you form a solid opinion on where you stand with all of it, you will probably want to have read all five books.

 

Evidence for these "theories" are not always obvious either. Which brings me to a question I know has been posed to you before, but I don't remember seeing an answer ...

 

When you've caught up with all the books, are you going to engage in more book related discussions? There's a slew of these theories all over the internet that are really fun to engage in.

 

mac123x - The chapter in question occurs toward the end of ACoK when Bran and co. are in the crypts of Winterfell after Ramsay has burned it. The direct passage and a brief interpretation of it can be found here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1816

Edited October 28, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[jellyroll2]

Yeah, there's all sort of different theories about the dragon the wolves see. And actually, as per Targ history taken from other sources, there are actually several dragons unaccounted for. Only problem is we don't know how long dragons live but unlikely many or any of them are still living. But you never know.

[Haleth]

Hopefully there are no more than 3. Dany is going to be hard pressed to find two other riders as it is.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah but the brothel owner said he's not for sale anymore and Oberyn kept pressing.

 

And was persuaded.  So either it was a case of no longer being for sale, but under the right circumstances; sure.  Or it was a case of "I'm saying I'm not for sale any longer, but what I really mean is that I'm extra expensive."   

 

I'm just not too het up over the a guy who runs a brothel being persistently hit on while negotiating the price for other human beings to have sex for money.   Either everyone in that scenario is gross and dirty, or no one is, you know?  I go for the "well, in this world, no one is being creepy and pervy when it's a brothel where the people aren't property....even if they can be bought...being bought is their choice rather than their lot in life in this world" .   

 

Just saying, hitting on the guy who "wasn't for sale any longer" (and clearly ended up in bed with Obeyrn and Elaria anyway) isn't going to be any more or less creepy than going to brothel in the first place.  Since Show Oberyn is really flipping off what he considers to be prudery in the Seven Kingdoms by bringing along his paramour as his wedding date, introducing her as such and having orgies in the bargain, it's kind of neither here nor there on the "good" or "creepy" scale.  

 

We've absolutely seen some stuff in brothels that was just beyond the pale in terms of creepy (poor Ros and her poor companion) , but persistence in bargaining doesn't rate the creepy designation for me.   

 

Which brings me to a question I know has been posed to you before, but I don't remember seeing an answer ...

When you've caught up with all the books, are you going to engage in more book related discussions? There's a slew of these theories all over the internet that are really fun to engage in.

 

I honestly don't know, A. Stone.  I think there's a really strong probability that I will, but I sort of can't predict how I'm going to feel at the end of the existing books.  I sort of assume that I will.  I know I'm looking forward to reading a lot of the Book Talk threads when I'm all caught up.   

 

However, spoilers for season 5 to follow

I was about a half an inch away from being done with the whole business over that Sansa is married to Ramsay thing and it took Mya a fair amount of patience to actually convince me not start ripping up just random books, that's how mad I was over the Shireen thing.   So it's really difficult for me to predict how I'll feel about the story when I get there, because here's the thing: I don't know what that whole Shireen thing was replacing in the story.  I know Ramsay marries someone that isn't Sansa.  

 So I can't really say for certain one way or the other.  

[Haleth]

I know Ramsay marries someone that isn't Sansa.

 

 

I think we all were expecting that to be a "wait, what???" moment from you.

 

I hate, hate the way Oberyn and Ellaria were portrayed, even though I adore the actors.  At TwoP my user name was Ellaria Sand when I had to abandon Haleth for a while, but after seeing her portrayed on tv this way, I regretted my choice.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

I think we all were expecting that to be a "wait, what???" moment from you.

 

No, that was a "To keep me from doing iced vodka shots, while screaming about feminism-my-ass, I-knew-there-was-a-reason-I-took-kickboxing"  on the night I nearly went over The Wall, out of the compound and became illiterate as a form of protest, Mya said something like, "Okay, but before you topple all the steeples, raze the village and build a mighty soapbox, would it be okay if I told you one thing?"  I answered something like, "Is it where you're hiding my Xanax?"" and she said, "No, it's that

Ramsay marries someone, but it isn't Sansa

".  

 

Then I guessed who it was the other night while we were chatting and I have a bottle of Grey Goose in the freezer, just in case :-) 

[Haleth]

Keep it handy, because

the marriage still happens, maybe not to Sansa, but to another unfortunate young girl.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Haleth

[Reader of Books]

shimpy rest assured that your reaction was mirrored by a great many book readers and accusations of being 'book snobs' and 'hate watchers' were leveled at any who dared voice their displeasure at the rendition.

[Dev F]

There were a number of rather extravagant changes in season 5 that I defended on general principal, arguing that I didn't think it mattered whether the show was scrupulously faithful to the book as long as their changes were interesting and faithful to the story the show itself was telling. And then I had to eat my words when these altered storylines ended up being completely incoherent and stupid by any measure.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Dev F

[nksarmi]

OMG there are pages and pages upon pages of ranting over that substitution on the show.  And there are also pages and pages upon even more pages of some of us trying to figure out a reason why they did it only to be disheartened over the outcome.  You say you have dedicated thousands of words to a subject - well, we all did you proud over that one back in the day. :)

[Alayne Stone]

I'm sure the question will come up again when you finish your read through. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say you'll probably be up for the book discussions. Especially since you've already touched on several theories all on your own. :)

 

That's the very same plot that nearly made me stop watching the show all together. I think I had the same exact reaction as you did, though for different reasons. I'm still debating whether or not I will come back for season 6, or just watch certain scenes on youtube. Sansa was not the only character who was done a great disservice in that plotline. And the way it was handled was just completely poorly.