Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Skeeter22]

They were definitely, definitely in the minority though. One of the reasons I loved that place (and now PTV) is because we have a really thoughtful and intelligent group of people for the most part. When I venture over to other places to see this show discussed I sometimes forget how crazy, creepy, and unsettling a lot of the comments are.

With Tyrion and Sansa and the wedding I remember a poster talking about how Sansa was a rude bitch for not being thankful to Tyrion. Another poster responded with something like 'Take a moment and think about what you're saying. You're saying that Sansa should thank Tyrion for not raping her.' I liked the post as did roughly 49 others.

FB and Twitter though yeah, it's mind boggling.

ETA:

I love that you made it to the story about the Night's King.

It was in the minority. This, and TWOP before it, is one of the only places to have in-depth discussions about the books and the show where there is little tolerance for that kind of misogyny. But it still happens sometimes, and it's hard to ignore or forget. Edited October 21, 2015 by Skeeter22

[Reader of Books]

 

I really do enjoy that when this story just goes to the fantasy lore place, it swings from the heels. The show really did choose to lose a lot of that "The Starks have some old time Weirwood magic in them".  Sam's entrance was much more interesting in the books and I wish they'd figured out some way to convey that only a sworn brother of the Night's watch could open that gate in some other fashion.   They did eventually just have Bran hearing the tree in his dreams, so it's a pity that they just took a pass on any sense of magical mystery in this story that isn't....tainted, you know?  

 

Bran being hauled around like a parcel, looking for a three-eyed crow and eventually meeting up with what looked like the Fae from True Blood.

 

So glad you are enjoying that. I am saddened when people say 'Bran is boring' based on the show's telling. His story is 'proper' fantasy: a lad who becomes a paraplegic then gradually learns about a magical level that he is a critical part of. And its all handled in a manner that is fed in a subtle way that matches his own learning process. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Reader of Books

[jellyroll2]

You know what many of us found interesting about that gate, Shimpy? That only part of the vow had to be read in order for the door to open. All of the "I am" parts. "I am the sword in the darkness, I am the watcher on the walls...", etc. None of the "I will" parts about holding no lands and fathering no children. Which is why many feel the "I will" parts were added later and the "I am" parts are the original vow and more important.

 

Also interesting, does the door work for any member of the NW? Or only those who've sworn their vows in front of a heart tree as Sam did? It is a weirwood door after all.

[Reader of Books]

 

Also interesting, does the door work for any member of the NW? Or only those who've sworn their vows in front of a heart tree as Sam did? It is a weirwood door after all.

 

Interesting. I had never really considered that...

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so a couple of unexpected things:  Dany sent Barristan and Jorah away together?  When Selmy is revealed, she just tosses both of them out?  Hmmm.  The Show's method of dealing with the "Wouldn't Selmy have known Jorah had spied?" by making it a point that Selmy never attended the Small Council.  I don't know why it never occurred to me that Dany would be upset that Selmy remained on Robert's Kingsguard -- I didn't think that was an optional thing on his part.  

 

But she was ticked that he accepted Robert's pardon?  

 

Plus, the chapters leading up to Joffrey's wedding are really well paced and balanced on POVs.   So that theory that Joffrey sent the assassin with Tyrion's knife was the right one?  Interesting.  I thought as soon as it was revealed that Petyr had Lyssa kill Jon Arryn and then lie to Cat about it, it seemed most likely to have been Petyr.  

 

Hehe, at least gearing up to Joffrey dying is much more fun than waiting for the Red Wedding.  I never realized they happened in the same book.  At least Shae being Sansa's maid was kept down to bearable time period.

[Delta1212]

Yeah, a lot happens in book 3. There is a reason it's most people's favorite.

ETA: And yeah, that knife got left for so long in the books that I think most people stopped caring, and then the show just sort of dropped it altogether, which I would fault them more for if it weren't for the fact that, again, most people stopped caring.

At most, I think the 'do-over' nature of the show meant they could have moved the reveal up a season or so to the point that maybe people would actually still care, but I guess not.

Unless it wasn't Joffrey after all?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Delta1212

[Alayne Stone]

I feel like the Sansa hate has died down over the years. For every Sansa hater there are probably two Sansa fans ready to defend her to the death, myself being one of them.

 

And yes, if I recall correctly, not much time separates The Red Wedding and The Purple Wedding. Not much time separates them in cannon show time either but for the fact that The Red Wedding happened at the end of season 3 and The Purple Wedding at the beginning of season 4. I remember us book fans were speculating that the Purple Wedding might happen in the season 3 finale, but the pacing would have probably felt completely off.

 

I love Bran's chapters if only because of all the lore we start getting from them in book 3. We had the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, The Red Cook and The Night's King ... in addition to the action surrounding Queenscrown chapter and The Night Fort. I really don't get why people say Bran's chapters are boring. They are amongst my favorites, especially as the books progress.

 

As far as Daenerys and why she also sent off Ser Barristan ...

 

I think it really ties in to the fact that he ... I won't say he lied to her, but he wasn't forthcoming. The visions/prophecies Dany experienced in the House of the Undying haunt her and she is constantly stuck on the "three betrayals" she will suffer. Myri was one. Jorah was another. And then she kind of lives in perpetual paranoia about who that third might be. She is also very biased against anyone who was ever allied with Robert Baratheon. She is probably the only character in the series (aside from Viserys, who she heard all about this from) who would ever regard Eddard Stark and The Lannisters with the same level of hatred. You'll notice she has never distinguished between Robert, Eddard or Tywin when she uses the phrase "Usurper's Dogs." It's not like she would have heard from Viserys that Eddard was deeply disturbed by the fact that Rhaenys and Aegon Targaryen were murdered with their mother, not that he would know himself. So anyone associated with Robert would give her cause for suspicion.

 

OH. And we were all waiting for you to finally discover who actually sent the assassin after Bran. Petyr Baelish had his hand in several pots, but that one just happened to occur on accident and work out to his favor. I can't remember, but the identity of who sent the assassin after Bran was never revealed in the show, right?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Reader of Books]

ETA: And yeah, that knife got left for so long in the books that I think most people stopped caring, and then the show just sort of dropped it altogether, which I would fault them more for if it weren't for the fact that, again, most people stopped caring.

 

 

I got the impression that was kind of the point. It was the event that kicked everything off because prior to that, everyone thought Bran's injuries were an accident. When the reveal happened in the books I found I was so tied up in everything else, I had to force myself to stop reading and take it in. It had become such an apparent non-issue when really it was critical. It felt like a message to my brain from GRRM "Remember when you used to care about the knife???"

[Holmbo]

I wonder if GRRM always intended to have Joffrey be responsible. His motives are pretty week. Also it's weird that Tyrion think so little of his plan considering he clearly got away with it. No one ever suspected him for a second.

[Lavignac]

Concerning the tunnel under the wall at the Nightfort:

 

I remember when in the show it boiled down to: an open tunnel that's always available, you clearly see light at the end of the tunnel,  and Sam just happened to read about it. It stretches disbelief that over the millennia, no wildling has stumbled about it and shared the discovery. Hence, i disliked the adaptation choice. I get it that they wished to tone down the high fantasy, but they could have made it so Sam found a padlock code or whatever medieval-equivalent seekrit maneuver in his books.

 

And to add to the common speculation about the magical weirwood door, one wonders whether anyone who learns the password will be let across, or whether the door detects magically the truth of the oath and that the person belongs to the Night's Watch.

[WindyNights]

I wonder if GRRM always intended to have Joffrey be responsible. His motives are pretty week. Also it's weird that Tyrion think so little of his plan considering he clearly got away with it. No one ever suspected him for a second.

He definitely knew who was responsible by Book One. I think he just wanted the beginning act to have been started by something as trivial as a son trying to make his dad proud or whatever.

Anyways

Tyrion wasn't the only one that suspected. Jaime did so too.

[Hecate7]

It was my impression that book Tyrion refused the bedding because HE didn't want to be stripped naked. Sansa was at best an afterthought or justification for him to refuse. His agreement not to consumate the marriage was far more noble and unique.

 

Really? That never occurred to me. Nobody was going to be interested in stripping Tyrion naked, and I think Tyrion would know that. He knew they'd be all over Sansa.

[Hecate7]

You know, I don't think it actually had anything to do with making Ned even more saintly seeming.  We never do see a Bedding in the show that is anything like what the books describe.  What the books describe is essentially a form of sexual assault and whereas, once again, Martin drew from history -- to an extent -- he took it a little too far by having everyone stripped naked and pawed by all and sundry.  

 

There was a (very rarely followed) tradition of a royal marriages consummation needing to be witnessed, back when royal marriages were about political (but far more importantly) military alliances.  

 

So I think that's part of why it got dropped.  Nothing to do with Tyrion or Ned, just somebody pointing out that the only person that would be okay with what was being described would be Joffrey and that's because he's a psychopath.   

 

Also, presumably someone was also keeping track of the "Are you kidding me with this shit?  Her intended and his brother and father had just been murdered, his sister is kidnapped and everyone is off to war come the morrow." 

 

It's funny that people think it has to do with Ned's Sanctification or Tyrion's either, it's that it is a ridiculous detail to have in the books.  It's based on (and I really do mean loosely based on) a kind of tradition, but literally none of them involve sexually traumatize people and then sticking them naked in bed together.  As amusing a concept as it may be, it sounds like the HBO team thought, "Uh....that might be going a bit too far...." just in general, but that they needed to have a line that showed that Cat was thinking back happily and proudly to her own wedding vs what's in the book, which practically includes Cat's saying she thought he was plain and somber...and bad in bed at least the first time out.   I think paring that down to  "Ned wouldn't let a crowd of strangers strip us naked" was the easiest shortcut to "I think fondly of my marriage, still love my husband ....which is good....'cause I'm going to be seeing him soon."  

 

Didn't they start to strip Roslin Frey and Edmure Tully?

 

I think you're right that Cat's reminiscence is mostly about giving Cat something to say about Ned at the RW that was nostalgic and reasonably happy.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Hecate7

[Dev F]

 But it does matter that it was a stupid plan, Dev F, particularly since the show really struggled with bringing across any sense of scale to the Wildlings and so it ended up feeling like there was very little peril, right up until the final  battle when Stannis practically popped up out of the tree roots to save the day.

 

Fair enough, though all that seems pretty far removed from the characterization of Olly, so I would still disagree that it reflects badly on him or his role in season 4.

 

Sure, they could have, but they didn't choose to do a lot of things with Jaime's characterization.  I get why fans of the books wanted that line in there, but I can also see why they didn't choose to include it.  They hadn't done enough background information on Jaime to have it do anything other than cause confusion for people who hadn't read the books.

 

Yep. I think there's a mistaken sense that the writers are making these sorts of adjustments carelessly, as if they didn't realize or didn't care that book fans were eagerly awaiting their favorite moment or favorite line. But I believe the producers have mentioned that they originally planned to keep with the original "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" wording but simply couldn't make it work.

 

In fact, I suspect that it's only one of several places in the Red Wedding that the producers tried to hew closer to the book but ultimately decided that they had to go in a different direction for the sake of legibility. For one, I'm pretty sure that the moment when Catelyn realizes Roose Bolton's complicity in the coming massacre was created in the editing room after the book's version of the revelation didn't work. That is, they couldn't figure out how to get across why Catelyn was motivated to look down at Roose's sleeve and discover that he was wearing armor under his tunic, so they switched around the shot of Roose following her gaze so that he looks down first to deliberately draw her eye and tip his hand. Which I thought actually worked really well.

 

Similarly, by the way that they cut away from Catelyn when she says "He is my son. My first son . . ." and then make a rather jumpy cut back to her as she says, "Let him go and I swear we will forget this," I'm pretty sure that they filmed and then edited out the book line that comes between those two passages, ". . . and my last." They must've realized that because of their rather awkward handling of the "Bran and Rickon are dead" revelation earlier in the season, viewers would've gotten confused about why she was forgetting about her other boys.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Dev F

[Lady S.]

I wonder if GRRM always intended to have Joffrey be responsible. His motives are pretty week. Also it's weird that Tyrion think so little of his plan considering he clearly got away with it. No one ever suspected him for a second.

The plan was a failure in that Bran wasn't actually killed, and there was no reason to give the failed killer a distinctive and valuable knife. The fact that he wasn't caught can't really be credited to Joffrey, that had more to do with Littlefinger's scheming, Cat's misplaced trust in him, and Ned's poor detective skills. If the knife was correctly identified as won by Robert, then maybe they could have figured out who took it from his possession.

[Holmbo]

The plan was a failure in that Bran wasn't actually killed, and there was no reason to give the failed killer a distinctive and valuable knife. The fact that he wasn't caught can't really be credited to Joffrey, that had more to do with Littlefinger's scheming, Cat's misplaced trust in him, and Ned's poor detective skills. If the knife was correctly identified as won by Robert, then maybe they could have figured out who took it from his possession.

OK that's true. If Ned showed Robert the knife and asked him who's it was. If Robert remember all his knifes.

[ambi76]

About Joff's motive or lack there off for sending the knife after Bran I think it becomes clearer when

Jaime and Cersei discuss it later.

 

I'm really looking forward to discuss my favorite part of the book series the "Purple Wedding" especially as all this discussion about the Red Wedding on the last pages, makes me feel like a total sociopath. All you nice people being so affected by it and I was all: *gigglesnort* (no seriously) & "Aw, kinda sad for Cat."

 

There are only two weeks at most between the RW and the PW in the book storyline. When D&D announced that they would make two seasons out of book 3 because so much happens, that sounded awesome at first, but in retrospect I find it much less so. Because unlike Dev F and many folks in fandom who consider it their favorite I really dislike the show's ASOS part 2 i.e. season 4. Just every little thing started to rubb me wrong there. I really wanted to give season 5 a chance though, but then ... oh well.

[Lady S.]

I think splitting up Storm kinda started the adaptation getting so off track, but short of making season 3 have extra eps (which really isn't an option since their 10-ep filming schedule is hectic enough) I really don't see how all that action could be fit into one season. It's hard to imagine having the Red Wedding in episode 4 or 5. 

[Holmbo]

I think the problem with four is that they wanted all the stories to stretch through the whole season. They could have ended the wall earlier and then had time to wrap up the rest of the stories in ep 9 and 10.

[Reader of Books]

There was too much material to cover for one season, but not enough for two. Then season 5 had even more material squeezed into 10 episodes. It just left everything unbalanced.

[vibeology]

Part of the problem is ASOS is backloaded. I know it's many fans favourite book, but the pacing is off. The first two thirds of the book very little happens. Jamie's plot is strong, Dany's is pretty good, Arya does okay but for most of the characters the big things really happen Red Wedding and after. You get the Purple wedding, Tyrion's trial, Oberyn, the attack on the Wall. I think it works okay in a book (though the pacing is why it's not my favourite) but it really isn't a TV friendly plot. Sometimes I have issues with D&D but I cannot think of a better way to break the book up or make it work in one season.

[plurie]

Really? That never occurred to me. Nobody was going to be interested in stripping Tyrion naked, and I think Tyrion would know that. He knew they'd be all over Sansa.

Tyrion is extremely sensitive about his physical appearance and any possible humiliation. Being stripped naked and made fun of by everyone at the wedding would be a nightmare to him. So, yes, they'd be "all over" Sansa, but they'd be laughing at him.

[stillshimpy]

I assumed that Tryion refusing the bedding ceremony had as much to do with his own dignity than that of Sansa, but that he was also considering her.  

 

Tyrion had been humiliated multiple times that day alone and so I do think his own interest in not being stripped naked and judged by his body motivated him just as much as keeping Sansa from being horribly mauled by people.   He is very sensitive to the feeling that people are mocking his body.  During Joffrey's wedding he even takes a moment to resent that Sansa didn't kneel down for him to spare him that humiliation. 

 

So yeah, I think it is safe to say that if Tryion had it in him to still be resenting Sansa for not kneeling down to spare him being laughed at, his own dignity entered equally into his refusing to allow a bedding ceremony.  Tryion makes sure to have Bronn tell Shae he is a dwarf, because he's had prostitutes hired before who weren't informed and didn't like the look of discomfort or judgment they had.   So it had to do with Tyrion also. 

 

Tyrion's a pretty self-centered guy, even during the wedding feast he momentarily forgets "Oh that's right, Sansa's entire family has been slaughtered ..." etc and is actually busily envying a man clearly in love with his own, pregnant wife.  Tyrion's a better man than most about the whole deal, but is is due, in part, to the desire to have his wife actually love him.  

 

It makes sense because he really was just a tremendously love starved person his entire life, but he has a hard time remembering that the situation is actually already pretty darned hard on Sansa.   

 

I enjoyed the book's version of the Purple Wedding a LOT more.  Even though it would have been obvious to any readers that they'd just swapped in the necklace for that hairnet, I do wish they'd figured out a way to use the relatively subtle hair net.  Sansa doesn't realize it has poisoned gemstones, but it makes a LOT more sense for Lady Olenna to be say that wind has mussed her hair and to take a few moments to allegedly tuck in stray strands.  

 

So hooray, one assassination plot comes off as being far closer to clever than in the show.   I'm sure all readers knew "So it's going to be a bauble from the necklace, instead!" but it was an insanely large and awkward contraption and then they had Diana Rigg pawing at Sansa's neck for so long and in an incredibly obvious fashion. 

 

I did feel sorry for Sansa when she found out, at long last, that Dontos was only helping her for gold, since it had been going on for a very long time from her viewpoint.  

Jaime's back and I see that they had that damned scene with Cersei right by Joffrey's dead body.  Yuck. Interesting that Jaime felt essentially nothing for Joffrey (or apparently any of his children with Cersei).   

[ambi76]

They made it pretty big on the show too, but in the books the PW is just gigantic. "A tad excessive" indeed. Tbh I don't see much difference in the hairnet vs. necklace thing, but yeah a hairnet would be easier to pluck from. I'm tired from work now, so I'll wait until tomorrow to unlash my PW and the aftermath musings.

Edited October 22, 2015 by ambi76

[Dev F]

I enjoyed the book's version of the Purple Wedding a LOT more.  Even though it would have been obvious to any readers that they'd just swapped in the necklace for that hairnet, I do wish they'd figured out a way to use the relatively subtle hair net.  Sansa doesn't realize it has poisoned gemstones, but it makes a LOT more sense for Lady Olenna to be say that wind has mussed her hair and to take a few moments to allegedly tuck in stray strands. 

 

I do agree that as a prop the hairnet is subtler, but the surrounding elements of the plot in the book always struck me as rather kludgy. "It's time for your escape, and the most important element is that you wear this hat!" I'm not sure the show version makes a whole lot more sense, since telling Sansa that wearing the necklace is a nice gesture doesn't guarantee that she would wear it to the wedding, but given a choice between two bad options I think I prefer "overly convenient" to "da fuh?"

 

So at this point I can elaborate on someone I mentioned a while back, which you may or may not have already picked up on. Namely, that after Ser Dontos disappeared from the story soon after his introduction in season 2, and the writers harped on Ros's involvement in the Varys/Littlefinger rivalry and her concern for Sansa, a lot of book readers assumed that Ros would take Dontos's place in the Purple Wedding storyline. I actually still suspect that this was the original plan, but that the producers changed their mind and killed Ros off early so that Varys and Littlefinger's rivalry could end on a more dramatic note. It would explain why Ros's death seems so awkward, and why Dontos disappeared from the story for so long before being reintroduced just barely in time to serve his main role in the story.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Dev F

[ambi76]

I do agree that as a prop the hairnet is subtler, but the surrounding elements of the plot in the book always struck me as rather kludgy.

 

I'm still of the tinfoil-hat brigarde that thinks something majorly kludgy was going on with this plot. Two plots colliding? Joff getting poisoned by accident? Hopefully we will find out someday. All I can say is: I don't trust Littlefinger.

Edited October 22, 2015 by ambi76

[Skeeter22]

I prefer the book version of the PW because at least Sansa has some agency. Yes, Dontos has been misleading her about his intentions, but she actively understood the risks she was undertaking and decided it was worth it. In the show, she's completely in the dark and Dontos basically drags her out of there. Sansa has few opportunities to take action, so I don't understand why they decided to rob her of this moment. They had to reintroduce Dontos anyway, why not have him tell Sansa about the escape plan? Joffrey's death is the big shock at the wedding, so it's not like they needed to keep Sansa's escape a surprise as well. Sansa ended up being an afterthought at the wedding, which is par for the course for events that occur in her POV chapters. She didn't even get the focus at her own wedding on the show.

[Holmbo]

I'm trying to imagine how the book PW would have looked on the show. It being in the throne room rather than outside, all those attempts to save Joffrey as he was choking (which feels realistic, that's how people would react if their king choked during a dinner). I think lots of viewers would have loved to see him being turned upside down. :)
 

[Alayne Stone]

I just love how outrageous everything is in the books. Seventy-Seven courses of food? How do you even do that even with taking only one bite of each course? And just imagine what a waste that would be ... especially during wartime.

 

That said, with the exception of a couple added scenes, I thought the show still did really good with adapting TPW. It probably helps that George wrote that episode.

 

And yeah, I wish they would have made Sansa a more active participant in her escape too. I loved all her Godwood scenes with Ser Dontos and the revelation that her poor, foolish Florian was still just out for himself in the end. There's a lot of things I wish the show would have done with her character but, eh ... I guess that ship has sailed. Sophie Turner still did an amazing job during the episode.

 

Shimpy, what'd you think of the dwarves in the books? Their act is quite different from the one in the show, which I was still thoroughly entertained by.

[stillshimpy]

I prefer the book version of the PW because at least Sansa has some agency.

 

I prefer the book version for a variety of reasons, the first being that no matter that Sansa failed to realize:  "So....there has to be something with this snood" ....which it just cracks me up that Martin will use outdated and archaic terms aplenty, but apparently just fucking balked at calling a snood, a snood.  However, at least in the book, Sansa is told specifically that she is to wear that specific thing on that specific day.  

 

In the show, oh my god, did they ever make a hash of that entire thing.  For one thing, it's not actually all that unusual for friend to say "Oh hold on, you have a leaf in your hair" (or whatever) and then spend either extract it and pat down down your hair with "there, got it"  there's pretty much only one reason to touch another woman's necklace and that's if the clasp has worked it's way to the front ....and you usually just point that out rather than pawing away at someone else neck endlessly.   

I felt so sorry for Diana Rigg trying to make any of that look natural trying to pull that move off, but at least if Sansa knew "this is part of your escape, you will be leaving the capital after this, wear this necklace" it would explain why she sat still for that.  As it is, Sansa just puts up with sort of a prolonged "Oh sure, it's normal for someone tug and otherwise handled the thing around my neck (spoiler: this only normal behavior for hangmen or lady's maids) " without  any sort of "What the hell are you doing?" look on her face.   

 

It isn't so much that the book gives Sansa more agency....it sort of doesn't....she's not complicit, or aware and if things had gone south she's wearing the fucking murder weapon so it was arranged so they could merrily toss her under the carriage wheels of busted committing regicide.   It's that she believes she is escaping that day.  She hides her own clothes.  She has to act on her own, even if, again she isn't made aware "oh we're totally murdering Joffrey and if things go wickedly South ....we just planted the hair ornament version of Knifey atop your pretty your head" ....at least she knows something is happening that day.  

 

She has some kind of hand in determining her own fate rather than "Huh, Olenna is very grabby today....but okay sure.....Wow, Joffrey appears to be dying and ....what?  you want me to run in my giant dress through the streets of King's Landing, in broad daylight?  Sure why....not."  

 

She doesn't have agency as much as she participates in her own trajectory.  No one gives her any choice there.  "Say, how would you feel about wearing poison on your head?  Do you sweat much when nervous?"   

 

It's that she's not toted around like an accessory.  Also, kind of nice to know that when Dontos is slaughtered in front of her face,  the reasons Petyr gives her for having to kill him are ones that makes sense and she actually does understand to be necessary....but that she's not exactly giddy with the thought that she's officially in on murdering the King and Dontos....and god knows what she'll make of Tyrion being left holding the bag, as it were (the part of that plot that still makes ZERO sense)....there was just no way to predict Tyrion's actions to that degree and the whole "and Joffrey will force him to be cup bearer" so I'm assuming everyone else involved just thought he'd be distracted by the sight of the dying King and that Sansa would have time to just turn heel and run for the ....woods, actually. 

 

 

 

Shimpy, what'd you think of the dwarves in the books? Their act is quite different from the one in the show, which I was still thoroughly entertained by.

 

Boy, I didn't like the thing in the show much, but I found the one the book even more distasteful.   The one n the show at least didn't feature dwarves on pigs and dogs.  

 

Speaking of ....poor Loras really thought Brienne murdered Renly?  That is one thing that I think the show did better, was having Margaery there, absolutely certain that could have been the case.  Margaery is one of those characters who is a much bigger presence in the series and is just sort of a pretty thing with hair in the books.  

Edited October 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lavignac]

Shimpy, I am most interested in your comparison of the hairnet / necklace plot. I remember how big a deal it was on the Completely Unsullied threads, that you guys felt the plot using Sansa as an unknowing poison-bearer was ridiculous... Do you really feel the different form, hairnet rather than necklace, makes it more believable? You still need a great talent at sleight-of-hand by the Queen of Thorns to pull off all the steps, and it's so easy for anything to go wrong... I thought your main comment on that today would be: "Nope, still don't buy it".

 

By the way, wouldn't you just see Loras in the future do to Brienne precisely what Brienne did to Stannis in the fifth season, for exactly the same murder? That would be priceless.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Lavignac

[Mya Stone]

I appreciate the hair net for so many reasons. Mostly, that GRRM previously introduced the poison used in the hair net by killing Maester Cressen with it in his prologue chapter of ACOK.

Truly, the subtlety and craft of the books was often lost on the show - and the necklace is a glaringly obvious incidence. It's almost ironic in that they made it so exaggerated so that you knew, without a shadow of a doubt, who and what was responsible for Joff's death.

[stillshimpy]

Do you really feel the different form, hairnet rather than necklace, makes it more believable? You still need a great talent at sleight-of-hand by the Queen of Thorns to pull off all the steps, and it's so easy for anything to go wrong... I thought your main comment on that today would be: "Nope, still don't buy it".

 

It is absolutely the most convoluted and ridiculous thing, if the sole aim was to kill Joffrey.  However, that wasn't the only aim of the plot:  The were also framing Sansa for it, on purpose.   In the Show they don't actually make that quite as clear as the book does. 

 

It's a nearly imbecilic way to kill someone if -- as in the show -- the whole thing revolves around a girl wearing a specific necklace, but not being told to wear a specific necklace.   So that was the dumbest part of the show -- "So if Sansa chooses a different necklace, Joff's just has his wedding night and Olenna's fine with that....?" 

 

But Lady Olenna actually needed to have the stupid murder weapon be on Sansa's person, in case she is caught.   For Littlefinger it is a plot to screw with things and get Sansa out of the capital.  For Lady Olenna?  It's a plot to kill Joffery and it doesn't really matter to her if Sansa gets away or not.    That's why it seemed so ridiculous on the show....Sansa had no clue and Olenna fiddled with her necklace for so damned long Aemon could have spotted it.  

 

So it makes sense to want to have the murder weapon on Sansa, and it's such a common thing for women to do something like, "You have a tag showing...." "You have a hair out of place...."  "Oh...hold on, you've got a thread...." and you never think back to it.  Lady Olenna pawing at the necklace was bizarrre.   A lady helping another woman with something awry about her appearance?  So commonplace no one else would even notice....and if Sansa gets caught on the way out of town....she's got the murder weapon on her and no idea that Olenna was involved. 

 

Also, the jewels on snoods, or hairnets are tiny.  They have to be or the weight will drag them off.  So yeah...a snood makes a LOT more sense than the Kitten sized baubles on Sansa's necklace. 

 

ETA:  The show in no way ever made it clear that framing Tyrion was kind of an accident.  I'm assuming at this particular point, they simply meant to frame Sansa and if she got away, good for Sansa, and if she didn't....no one would suspect Olenna....probably not even Sansa.   I can't even tell you the number of times friends will just pretty naturally do things like readjust something for another woman.   I helped someone who got their purse strap caught on a bar stool just the other day.   I'm sure she couldn't pick me out of a lineup if it came right down to it.  Olenna tucking in a piece of hair for Sansa?  Natural move.  

 

"Oh what an interesting necklace....with these large tear drop pendants that you won't notice if I tug at so hard that one of them actually comes away...."  

 

Not so natural. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I might have been so giddy over Joffrey's death that I didn't really notice if it was overly clunky lol.  I think Cersei's accusation of Tyrion was kind of just happy coincidence.  It occurred to me at some point that on the show - if Sansa had figured out what was up and refused to let Tyrion take the fall for a murder she knows he didn't commit, that some very quick lying could have laid the whole thing at Shae's feet (especially if Sansa and Jamie plotted their lies together). 

 

In the book, I don't think that would have worked.  Though I am looking forward to your review of the trial chapters because I must admit that I can't remember if it was ever made clear why Shae testified in the book or why she didn't just sail away like Tyrion tried to have happen.  In other words, was she captured, paid, etc...?

[Alayne Stone]

Was it really that noticeable for Unsullied fans though? Or did someone have to point it out first? Because I still remember seeing several people saying "Pay attention to when Olenna touches Sansa's necklace" on the boards to people who were unfamiliar with the plot. And then going out of their way to screen cap a shot where all the jewels are in place and then the shot with the jewel missing after Olenna pocketed it.

 

It really just goes to show that Dontos was right when saying the Tyrells were just Lannisters with thorns when you consider the fact that they clearly had no problem framing a girl who had her entire family massacred and has been a hostage/physically abused while in King's Landing.

 

I don't know why, but I always kind of assumed the dual framing of Tyrion was still intentional because of how well known it was that Cersei absolutely hated Tyrion ... along with Joffrey. They could not count on him being Joffrey's cupbearer, no, but it is not a far stretch to imagine that Cersei hated him enough that she wouldn't even need a reason to blame him. She would find one, one way or the other.

 

Is it safe now to bring up the fact that some people speculate/the crackpot theory that Tywin was actually in on the plot in order to make way for the much more pliable King Tommen?

Edited October 23, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[stillshimpy]

Was it really that noticeable for Unsullied fans though?

 

No.  It was not noticeable to us.  We ....oh jeez, let's just leave it at "had an incident from someone from clearly drawing from multiple source materials to reach those conclusions" ,  with helpful red circles and everything, shall we?  It's ancient history and it just doesn't really matter any longer.  But the actual Unsullied didn't really notice because Joffrey JUST FREAKING DIED and we were sort of in shock.  So for that one goober determined to spoil as much as possible, I do have to say: Holy crow, thousands of readers/Bookwalkers never gave that one away at all.  

 

However, it was precedent for setting a bunch of really helpful rules, so it's all good. 

 

True story:  Two or three days beforehand, David Cole asked if we cared if the episode titles were posted beforehand and I blithely replied: "Hey, as long as the episode title isn't "Joffrey dies at long freaking last" I can't imagine it would be a problem."  

 

And...basically the one time I guessed entirely right, I was trying to be ironic.  This is essentially the story of my entire life.  

Edited October 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[snarkastic]

shimpy, What are your thoughts on the change that Jaime and Brienne were at the wedding in the show but not in the book? I remember a lot of readers having opinions on that at the end of season 3.

[Reader of Books]

Ahhh the scene in the sept. Yes a deeply troubling and uncomfortable scene. And curiously looked on almost with a fondness by some given the adaptation's handling.

 

I remember clearly the Unsullied's confusion about it "Wait. Are we supposed to be disliking Jaime now?"

Edited October 23, 2015 by Reader of Books

[jellyroll2]

Is it ok to talk about the theory that Joffrey wasn't the intended victim at all?

[Holmbo]

It should be ok to talk about crackpot theories as long as they don't draw specifically from further books as support right?

Like if there are specific things that on page so and so in Dance it says this. Then we could wait until that to bring up that theory.

Perhaps easiest if shimpy makes the call. Have you looked into the world of crackpot theories yet shimpy? Or are you still keeping away from the rest of the asoiaf net?

[Lady S.]

 

In the book, I don't think that would have worked.  Though I am looking forward to your review of the trial chapters because I must admit that I can't remember if it was ever made clear why Shae testified in the book or why she didn't just sail away like Tyrion tried to have happen.  In other words, was she captured, paid, etc...?

Book Tyrion never tried to send Shae away, I believe they even had sex on the morning of the wedding, she was Sansa's maid at the time.

 

I'm probably going to regret opening up a subject that could easily turn into another rape debate, but shimpy, I'm curious to know more of your thoughts on Jaime/Cersei's reunion. Besides the timing and consent issues, the other difference Is Jaime begging her to go public and marry him.

[ambi76]

Is it ok to talk about the theory that Joffrey wasn't the intended victim at all?

 

It's a-ok with me! :D  Not sure about shimpy, though it's all pure fan speculation thus far.

I totally think they (Littlefinger and/or Tyrells) wanted to kill Tyrion and not (just?) Joff, especially with GRRM being  all "OMG no! They didn't want to frame the imp!11!", as it would be kinda hard to frame Tyrion for his own murder. Fucking Olenna acts and talks at the wedding as if Tyrion is already dead ffs! Silly old woman totally not trying to steal your wife (back), no ser. Right.

Edited October 23, 2015 by ambi76

[ambi76]

Speaking of ....poor Loras really thought Brienne murdered Renly?

 

Yup. And I find the Marg-Brienne thing from the show really forced, even if it makes my baby look technically better. Never mind Olenna fawning over Brienne like a teenager finally seeing her favorite boyband member. Wtf?

 

Well, at least book!Jaime's "... shoving my sword someplace even Renly never found" let the penny drop about Loras and Renly for some oblivious readers. Others where still "Omg he was not serious!" of course.

 

By the way, wouldn't you just see Loras in the future do to Brienne precisely what Brienne did to Stannis in the fifth season, for exactly the same murder? That would be priceless.

 

Going into slightly spoilery territory here so:

I was utterly baffled when Brienne killed Stannis on the show for very different reasons than most people I guess. And despite for a long time believing that neither Brienne nor Loras would get to kill Stannis in revenge, I can totally see it being Loras in the books now. Brienne makes no sense whatsoever there. At least from where we are yet. I think Jaime successfully talked Loras out of Brienne needing to be killed for anything, though.

 

I'm probably going to regret opening up a subject that could easily turn into another rape debate, but shimpy, I'm curious to know more of your thoughts on Jaime/Cersei's reunion. Besides the timing and consent issues, the other difference Is Jaime begging her to go public and marry him.

 

The last part you mention never will fail to amuse me, although I had to re-evalute my inital reaction to that scene in the books over the years quite a bit. When Altarsex-gate happend after that show episode I worte a rambling tumblr post about all that. There may be one or two extremely tiny AFFC spoilers in there, so maybe shimpy should wait to read it if she wants.

Edited October 23, 2015 by ambi76

[Which Tyler]

Could I just you guys that there are people here who haven't seen season 5 for fear of book spoilers.

[ambi76]

Not sure if I understand you right but I don't think season 5 of the show is off limits here, Tyler, as shimpy saw it. Maybe one should be cautious about reading spoiler tags if it is a bother.

[Reader of Books]

Could I just you guys that there are people here who haven't seen season 5 for fear of book spoilers.

 

The general idea is that discussion be about where shimpy is up to in the books, but those people should be aware that the onus is upon to be careful where they look.

[nksarmi]

Is it ok to talk about the theory that Joffrey wasn't the intended victim at all?

Wait?  That's a theory?  I thought it was very clear they wanted Joffrey dead.

[Haleth]

I remember the great debate in the Unsullied thread about what caused Joff's death.  There was a lot of scoffing about the necklace being too obvious and too clunky a plotpoint and just poor writing.  It was one of those times that I was talking out loud to the Unsullied, saying it comes off better in the book.  I never did hear an explanation of why the show went with a necklace rather than the hairnet.  Just because careful viewers could spot a missing (big, honkin') piece of a necklace but not a delicate jewel from the snood?  The way it was written in the book (as far as I recall, I'm just at that chapter now) it was not immediately confirmed that this was the cause of death, so they really didn't need eagle eyed viewers to play CSI Westeros.  Sure, the big red arrows pointing to it were there, but it wasn't outright said that Olenna put the pellet with the poison in the chalice from the palace.  Not until later anyway.

 

Ha!  The Dwarves.  I'd forgotten about Penny.  Shimpy will be surprised when she (and the dog and the pig) pops up again.

[nksarmi]

Book Tyrion never tried to send Shae away, I believe they even had sex on the morning of the wedding, she was Sansa's maid at the time.

 

I'm probably going to regret opening up a subject that could easily turn into another rape debate, but shimpy, I'm curious to know more of your thoughts on Jaime/Cersei's reunion. Besides the timing and consent issues, the other difference Is Jaime begging her to go public and marry him.

 

Oh see that is why I need shimpy's read through lol - my memories are too wrapped up in the show.  I am curious about shimpy's take on Shae in general though.  Obviously I now realized that the show muddled things for me, but again, Shae of the books is a very different creature than she of the show.

 

I am interested in shimpy's take on sept sex as well.  Not because I want to debate if the show did it as rape, but because I'm curious what the unsullied thought it looked like and what she thinks of it now that she has read it. 

 

My background is this:  I started reading after season two (I think) and then I read all the books and then skipped a year and started bing watching with my fiancé from the start up through the end of season four.  In the meantime, I had read about the rape on social media but having not seen it - I didn't get it because it didn't read as a rape to me in the books.  Then when I saw it, it was so hard for me to separate the fact that I knew Cersei wanted to in the books that I had a hard time seeing it as rape in the show.  So I'd like to read shimpy's compare and contrast.

[Delta1212]

Wait? That's a theory? I thought it was very clear they wanted Joffrey dead.

There are theories about people being secret mermaids. I think Joff not being the intended victim is relatively tame as far as crackpot theories go.