Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[ambi76]

The Bastard names go:

 

Snow = North

Rivers = Riverlands

Pyke = Iron Islands

Hill = Westerlands

Stone = Vale

Waters = Crownlands

Storm = Stormlands

Flowers = Reach

Sand = Dorne

 

There is this funny argument in fandom that Jon Snow should actually be Jon Sand (as he was probably born in Dorne) but i'ts not consistent if it goes after birth area, or where the mother is from (both things we are not supposed to know about Jon anyways)  or where you're raised. (For the most part it's where your mother is from, so Jon Snow is right after all).

Edited July 25, 2015 by ambi76

[SeanC]

Changing Asha's name to Yara doesn't make any sense to me, unless they were afraid that all the A names would sound Targ-ish? 

They thought "Asha" would sound too much like "Osha", the wildling nanny.

 

Theon's characterization is definitely very different on the show.  The show version is a lot more outwardly pathetic -- the book version is a sexist douche, but he's handsome and a skilled fighter, whereas the show version is just a loser.  And yeah, his attitude toward the Starks is very different.

Edited July 25, 2015 by SeanC

[ambi76]

And Yara sounds way too much like Arya. :-P

Edited July 25, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

Well, I'm weirdly grateful that Theon has a vastly different attitude towards the Starks in the book.   In the show, he's just disgusting to me, because his affection for the Starks seemed real and his loyalty seemed real...until he was bloody well sacking Winterfell and murdering Rodrik in front of a shrieking Bran, who was supposed to be someone he cared about.  That Theon had affection and loyalties that seemed to be attached to a light switch that could just as easily be set to "off" as "on" just made him seem weak and without worth to me.   

 

Eventually the story did such horrible, horrible things to him that even I felt sorry for him, because no one, or thing could ever deserve the horror that happened to him.  You guys all read the Unsullied threads, so you may recall that my chief complaint about Theon was that he killed two children as props.  The story treated him so horribly that eventually it became a case of "Even so, cut the shit, story, and release him from the mortal coil.  This is just horrible and unwarranted, no matter what he did."  

 

So at least Book Theon's actions already make more sense.  He always resented the Starks and thought of himself as a hostage.  In his mind, even Jon Snow was accorded more respect (makes perfect sense to me that it would Jon Snow...since Ned Stark claimed him as his son and all things Ned were Wintery ) , which was at least amusing because Jon had a completely different take on that.  

 

Dany's endless wandering in the desert, where she was simply dirty and thirsty for half a season are the contents of freaking chapter for goodness sake and we now have another answer to a question that the show never bothered to answer: Tile Face ws Quaithe of the Shadow (although I've no idea what that means) and Ducksauce (Daxos) has made his appearance along with Preet.   I loved the description of Vaes Tolorro (City of Bones) and wish that it had been part of the show.  Once again, you can feel the accounting department in these decisions.   I kept waiting for something horrible to happen there.  For the Figs to be poisonous or the water to be contaminated.  

 

I am really confused about something though:  Why the hell did Jorah's father take the Black if it wasn't out of shame over his son's dishonor?  What did he do?  (don't answer that if I'm yet to find out), did I just miss it?  

 

Jon and company rolled out into the North and again, "Hi, budget and accounting! How's it hanging?  How much of this story did you take out with the click of a 10key and an eye on the bank account?"  ...there are little Wildling Towns -- something that never made even a whit of sense to me in the story, that the Wildlings couldn't figure out how to make shelter (which, if nothing else, was a case for keeping them on the other side of the Wall "Quick! Lock them out before they further dilute our already regrettable gene pool!  Turkeys in the rain have more sense than people who can't think to cut down a tree or two to make place to live, for the love the Fickle Friggin' Gods" ).  I live in fear that they're about to roll up on Craster and spend endless amounts of time there, but Dany's short desert wanderings give me hope that they won't spend an entire book there, contemplating Incest to the Nth Power.  

 

Arya's journey North is, of course, far more detailed and interesting....and much, much sadder.  It's a weird thing, but despite the story urging me to just love the hell out of Arya on the show, after a while she just started to alienate me.  Nihilism as a defining characteristic only ever mitigated by a need for Revenge doesn't exactly endear a character to me.  I felt sorry for her, but I lost all sense of her personality after a a while.   So she's breaking my heart by doing things like trying to save that (undoubtedly doomed) crying girl and caring what happened to the animals.  

 

I try not to dwell too much on why the hell Yoren would take Biter and Gash (or whatever their names are) as recruits.  If you can't bloody well let them out of the cage, for fear that they will slaughter the lot of you, they might not make good Brother Crows, dude.  What were you planning on doing? Pushing them off the Wall as some sort of sacrifice to appease a man-eating tree? 

 

So they seem to be there to add color to the tale and just don't make any actual sense.  Jaqen is just coming off as a predator at this point, "Sweet boy, nice boy" eek.  Thank goodness I already know who he is, or I'd think Yoren had picked himself a lovely Offender to join the tree-appeasers.  Yikes.   As if having a bunch of rapists to train (and arm, because that's freaking smart, book) wasn't bad enough.   

 

They thought "Asha" would sound too much like "Osha", the wildling nanny.

 

Oooooh.  Okay, that one I guess I can grant them.  

Edited July 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Changing Asha's name to Yara doesn't make any sense to me, unless they were afraid that all the A names would sound Targ-ish?

 

Yeah, I thought it was to prevent confusion between Osha and Asha.  Whatever.

The only thing that was ever frustrating about being part of the Unsullied is that without fail, every year, someone would decide that Jon was a Targaryen and then we'd have to have the "Well, even if he is, he can be burned....remember the lantern?"  thing over and over and over.   So there were several subjects that had that happen and the Lord of Light was one of them.  Thus far I think the books have been much clearer about "Look, even if these things have any power, they aren't the same thing....everyone has their different thing they think is up to something...."

 

It is my strong belief that when Jon rises again (because there is no way to convince me it won't happen) he will be impervious to fire.  I am sure that GRRM had him get burned in book 1 to show that when he does get resurrected that will be the most obvious change.  Which brings me to a point I have been thinking about since rereading Clash:

 

Dear Mel,

I know your heart is in the right place and you utterly believe that Stannis is the chosen one of your god to save the world, but maybe you should consider one thing.  That little test with the flaming sword?  If your candidate has to wear oven mitts and the Westerosi version of a hazmat suit in order to grasp the flaming sword, perhaps, just perhaps you might have the wrong guy?  Just sayin'.  After all, other people with other flaming swords (see "Thoros of Myr" and "Dondarion, Beric") don't need extra special padding to keep from being burned.  Love ya and love Stannis, but keep your options open for when you do find a person who doesn't mind getting a little toasty.  

Love, Haleth

[stillshimpy]

God the stuff with Stannis and Lightbringer was darkly hilarious.  The descriptions of the gods were really the stuff that inspired awe, as were the descriptions of what happened to them as they burned, but Stannis practically being coated in Teflon and still getting burned cracked me up on a black comedy level I have difficulty describing.  

 

No natural charisma?  Check! 

Nothing that naturally inspires men to wish to follow him?  Double Check!

No actual freaking heir or the likelihood of siring one?  Checkity, checkity, boo! 

Not even close to being impervious to the cleansing fire you so love?  Great Big Smoldering Check! 

 

Was it just that his big eared queen was so devout that had Mel attach herself to him like a beautiful barnacle to a dishwater dull hull, because it's making Zero amounts of sense at present.            

[Protar]

I think the whole "Targs/Chosen ones need to be fireproof thing" is blown out of proportion. It seems to be canon in the show, but in the books Dany in the funeral pyre was just a one time magical event according to Martin (not a spoiler as that isn't cleared up directly in the text.). I think that Jon getting burned was to show that, assuming he is a Targ. That said, Stannis kind of failing hard in holding up Lightbringer was probably intended as a "hint" that he's not truly Azor Ahai. 

[SeanC]

I am really confused about something though:  Why the hell did Jorah's father take the Black if it wasn't out of shame over his son's dishonor?  What did he do?  (don't answer that if I'm yet to find out), did I just miss it?  

He didn't do anything,  He just joined because he, like Ned, cares about the Night's Watch, and as an experienced soldier with an adult son he could afford to "retire" to the Wall.  I believe that was alluded to back in AGOT (at a minimum, it's not something that comes up in future books, so it's not a spoiler).

[unworried well]

Tile Face ws Quaithe of the Shadow

 

My first post was about Tile Face Lady. :-)

[chandraReborn]

Yeah, I don't think Mormont ever comes out and says why he took the black. It just seems to be a northern tradition, and a useful one: heirs aren't tempted to move against their dads because they know their dads will retire to the Wall one day, and the Wall gets experienced leaders. 

[SeanC]

I wouldn't say it's a tradition, since we see plenty of elderly Northern lords in the series.  Mormont is unusual amongst his peers.

[Protar]

It's more traditional for third sons in the north to join the watch, rather than old lords looking to retire. So perhaps Mormont was a third son and his brothers died. Or perhaps he just felt the honour of the NW calling him. I don't believe it's ever specified. 

[Delta1212]

I think the whole "Targs/Chosen ones need to be fireproof thing" is blown out of proportion. It seems to be canon in the show, but in the books Dany in the funeral pyre was just a one time magical event according to Martin (not a spoiler as that isn't cleared up directly in the text.). I think that Jon getting burned was to show that, assuming he is a Targ. That said, Stannis kind of failing hard in holding up Lightbringer was probably intended as a "hint" that he's not truly Azor Ahai.

Normally, I'm in the "if you have to explain why it's not a spoiler, it might best be left unsaid" camp, but in this case, I'm not entirely sure GRRM is telling the truth, anyway.

[Protar]

Normally, I'm in the "if you have to explain why it's not a spoiler, it might best be left unsaid" camp, but in this case, I'm not entirely sure GRRM is telling the truth, anyway.

 

Well I mean it would be one thing to spoil something that was revealed later. But in this case it seems like Martin thought it was self-evident? And was just clarifying it later because it wasn't clear as he thought.

 

So Shimpy I'm really sorry if you consider that a spoiler. :(

[Lady S.]

I think the whole "Targs/Chosen ones need to be fireproof thing" is blown out of proportion. It seems to be canon in the show, but in the books Dany in the funeral pyre was just a one time magical event according to Martin (not a spoiler as that isn't cleared up directly in the text.). I think that Jon getting burned was to show that, assuming he is a Targ. That said, Stannis kind of failing hard in holding up Lightbringer was probably intended as a "hint" that he's not truly Azor Ahai.

Yeah, I also now think Mel knew the sword wasn't Lightbringer and this was all just a show to draw people in. Assuming she learned the story of Azor Ahai that Sal Saan did, she could be waiting for Stannis to get in on human sacrifice to prove himself. But first she had to build up a base of converts of Dragonstone and get other people onboard the Stan as prophesied hero hype train. It's a small train, but it's probably the loudness of the fanaticism that she's going for.

[plurie]

IIRC, they changed Asha to Yara so the viewers wouldn't confuse her with Osha. Nothing to do with Targs. But, speaking of Targs, the reason Robert wad able to take over Westeros was because of his (and Stannis') Targ blood. Otherwise, it might have been Ned or John Arryn, but they weren't descended from the ruling family.

[Brn2bwild]

IIRC, they changed Asha to Yara so the viewers wouldn't confuse her with Osha. 

 

Which turned out to be rather pointless given that Osha then disappeared for a couple of seasons.

[stillshimpy]

Which turned out to be rather pointless given that Osha then disappeared for a couple of seasons.

 

As did Yara, for that matter.  Yara's last appearance was beating feet away from her rescue of Theon, who practically stood there shrieking "Master! Save Renfield!" the entire time she was trying to rescue him. 

 

Protar, if you could maybe stop clarifying things with what Martin has had to say,  I would appreciate it as I'm still not reading author, actor or media pieces.   It isn't truly a spoiler, but as a for instance, Dany being fireproof happened more than once on the show.  So it's the same as telling me that her things play out really differently there, because the way Dany gets away from Preet involves that.    It really isn't a big deal, but when it gets to enough details, then it stops being a case of "eh, that's okay, so now I know one more thing that is yet to come" , you know? 

 

I'm still not reading extra materials, or cast or author interviews at present.  I might at some point in the future, but for now, I'm doing the same thing with the books that I did with the series, sticking only with what is in front of me.   It truly is okay, but I really would appreciate it if you gave it a pass in the future.  I also fully understand that it has to be a little bit wearing for you guys, and I apologize for that aspect of the discussion.   I do know that part has to be a pain for you guys. 

 

 

So far book two has been a much more intriguing read, because there are bigger differences.   I admit, the first book was a bit of a slog for me in some instances, but this one is genuinely interesting.  We always used to have people say "I only read the first book, so can it isn't as if I know anything more than any of you..." and want to join in the second season.  I can now understand more fully why that wasn't going to work.  They were always going to know things we just wouldn't.   That's really the only thing that book one did though, it provided a tiny bit of detail here or there that would then inform how a person viewed the series.  

 

Or you know what would also work?  If whatever it is that someone is adding pertains only to a plot point that is present in the tale right now.  I really, really appreciated knowing that Martin truly did not mean to set Sansa up to take the blame for Ned's execution, as a for instance and it really helped to know that.  But it also had to do with a detail I was currently reading about and discussing.  

 

The one about Targs being fireproof is really my fault though, as I was just talking about the "every year, without fail, we'd have the same discussions about something because _____ got forgotten".  The only good thing about learning the Petyr had Lysa kill Jon Arryn (good lord, that was not a great plot point otherwise) was that it help shutdown the "who sent that assassin to kill Bran, who killed Jon Arryn?" treadmill too.  

Edited July 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

Again, my bad. I really should have just held my tongue :3. I guess I had a kneejerk reaction because this is something that even bookwalkers discuss. So I sort of have a reflex to say "actually Martin clarified blah blah blah" on that particular topic. 

[Haleth]

I hope I'm not saying too much. My point about Jon turning out to fireproof in his next incarnation (complete speculation on my part) is not so much that he may or may not be a Targ, but because I believe Mel will need to figure out he's the savior sent by R'hollar (however it's spelled). I'm trying to be very careful not to jump ahead with any concept you haven't read yet.

[stillshimpy]

No you guys are great and seriously, when I bring up something, it's completely reasonable for you guys to respond.  So that really wasn't on you, Protar, I just tend to range far and wide when discussing things and it is completely natural for you guys to say, "Oh....about that...." and respond.  

 

So more than anything?  I need to keep my own butt on the topic at hand.  It isn't you guys.  

 

I know this entire discussion has weird challenges for all of you, and you're all being super nice about it.  I truly appreciate it.  

 

I need to be more aware of the stuff I'm randomly bringing up, because when I bring something up, it's completely natural for you all to respond.

 

ETA:  Ha!  This just occurred to me and Mya Stone will likely know to what it pertains.  I just got caught in my own, "Okay, so if you bring something up, don't expect someone to know your wishes on it, unless that someone is wearing Genie pants and hailed from a lamp.  Also?  Be sure to watch your wording when you state those wishes, dude."    So again, that one is all on me and I know it.  You guys have nothing for which to apologize. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

Can't wait for Shimpy to reach the Baratheon parley.

 

Renly: Your mother was a hamster!

Stannis: And your father smelt of elderberries!11!1

 

Catelyn: Erm? You guys are aware that you have the same parents, right?

 

:o)

Edited July 26, 2015 by ambi76

[Haleth]

Ha! You could almost do a Monty Python skit for the three Baratheon brothers.

[Protar]

I've long held that they could do a Small Council comedy set before Jon Arryn's death. It could be like Archer. I would pay all the moneys to see that!

[Delta1212]

Protar, I hope you don't think I was being critical. I've been trying to provide interesting background information, and lord knows there've been more than a few times that I typed out several paragraphs that I wound up deleting from a post because I decided they were skirting the edge of hinting at, or addressing, future events too much.

I'm a bit of a spoiler-phone myself with a bad habit of figuring out a <i>lot</i> from very innocuous seeming comments. Growing up, my mom and I would race to see who could figure out the ending of whatever movies we'd watch first. I got very good at it, and consequently became very aware of just how much you can figure out about a story with minimal information.

I remember reading about a book reader whose significant other got mad at them for spoiling early in season 1, because they asked who they thought would end up on the throne, and from that the other person was able to deduce that Robert Baratheon must die. It just becomes very easy to take the direction you know the story is going in for granted and even if you avoid directly spoiling what does happen, you can often wind up spoiling what doesn't happen simply because you forget that some things ever seemed like possibilities, or may not even have occurred to you while reading.

Personally, I "spoiled" a friend while we were both reading because I mentioned something that I thought happened at the end of a book (which we both had finished, but I was a ways into the next book and he hadn't started yet). He got upset because he didn't know that had happened.

It turns out I was, in fact, wrong about it happening at all, and the something that I thought had happened had been left up in the air and went the opposite direction from what I had thought. Of course, then I couldn't go back and tell him I'd been wrong without further spoiling him. Which shows the dangers of any conversation between between two people with different levels of information about a story when you're trying to avoid spoilers.

I'll elaborate on what I'm talking about once we've gotten safely past that point since I don't want to compound the mistake.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

So Bran's chapter was one of the more interesting ones when it came to world-building and all that ruling anything -- North, South, the Kingdom -- entails.  Poor Lady Hornwood of the much picked-over Wishbone.  Everyone trying to lay claim to either her lands, her hand, and all that would entail.  Poor thing.  

 

Bolton apparently had a son?  A legitimate heir named Domeric and Ramsay knew his mother pretty well.  So I suppose that puts to rest the entirely horrifying origin tale Roose Bolton shared about "I looked into your demonic eyes and knew you were my son....of course...I killed your poor mother, who I'd raped...because gods know it would suck if I was subtly evil, vs. Broadly Evil Designed for the Silent Screen.  Since they forgot to have me grow a mustache primed for twirling, instead I raped and killed the mother of the kid I made my legitimate heir.   Fuck nuance! Which I would and then put it to death after calling it degrading names....of course."  

 

That at least makes Ramsay make a tiny bit more sense as a character, but what the hell?  Reek is a character?  That can't be Theon, so does Ramsay just always make a poor creature named Reek?  Or does Theon not become Reek?    I guess that's all stuff I'll find out, but that was a giant WTF right there.   I'm going to guess that Ramsay always has a Reek, he kills that one (because...Ramsay) and eventually just makes poor Theon into his next one.  

 

The most interesting thing about Tyrion's chapter was the stuff about the Chain and again, showing that he is actually good at governance and handling all matters related to the small council.  Other than that it was mostly more questing to get to Shay, which is a little dull and would be even if it wasn't for the fact that I know what becomes of her, making it really difficult to invest in "Ah, he really does love her and need her."  Far fewer reports on what is happening in Tyrion's pants would be appreciated too. Tthe pant-action report is this book's version of the Movements of Sam's Multiple Chins and boy...I didn't think I'd end up wishing for more chins and fewer "I wonder if Tyrion's parts are stirring?  Please do tell me, because the not-very-secret life of Tyrion Lannister's phallus sure never gets boring as hell, only because it starts out being boring as hell".  Longing for the days of Chins. 

 

So I loved Bran's chapter and found it fascinating.  Particularly when he begins to remember why Jaime Lannister shoved him out of a window.  Poor Bran.  

 

But that was swiftly followed by a feeling of disappointment that there was another Tyrion chapter so soon.   I guess I'm off to see what goes on in his britches.  Woo. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

Tyrion's chapters are totally the best part of CoK! Or at least they were for me, although I'll admit that Shae isn't the most engaging part of that story. There's a specific small detail - I think it's next chapter - that I'm looking forward to you reading. Maybe you'll get a laugh out of it. 

[SeanC]

Bolton apparently had a son?  A legitimate heir named Domeric and Ramsay knew his mother pretty well.  So I suppose that puts to rest the entirely horrifying origin tale Roose Bolton shared about "I looked into your demonic eyes and knew you were my son....of course...I killed your poor mother, who I'd raped...because gods know it would suck if I was subtly evil, vs. Broadly Evil Designed for the Silent Screen.  Since they forgot to have me grow a mustache primed for twirling, instead I raped and killed the mother of the kid I made my legitimate heir.   Fuck nuance! Which I would and then put it to death after calling it degrading names....of course."  

Just a point of clarification:  Roose in the show never claimed that he killed Ramsay's mother.

[Delta1212]

Tyrion's chapters are totally the best part of CoK! Or at least they were for me, although I'll admit that Shae isn't the most engaging part of that story. There's a specific small detail - I think it's next chapter - that I'm looking forward to you reading. Maybe you'll get a laugh out of it.

I was wondering what it was, so I went and read the chapter. Now I'm looking forward to seeing what shimpy says, too.

[stillshimpy]

Didn't he say he had her hanged?  Or was it that he found her hanging not long afterward?  It just happened this season.  

 

He raped on her wedding night or something and she showed up at the gates of ...wherever it is that he lives, the Dreadfort...claiming that she had his son.  He looked into Baby Ramsay's face and saw his eyes, and knew he was his son.  

 

Then there was something about her hanging from a tree  (or was it that he hanged her husband? ) and I thought Roose had done something like hand her over to his men and have her hanged.   I really, really didn't like this season, so the sound of my own seething probably drowned out a lot of details. 

 

I could be misremembering that because I hate Roose Bolton just about violently and I despised every last stinking thing about that wretched story as it was.   

 

On the stuff with Tyrion, the thing that is frustrating when it comes to Shae, is I really feel like the show very specifically and purposefully yanked me around when it came to her character.  I thought she really cared about Sansa, really loved Tyrion, etc. etc.  So when she ended up being strangled by Tyrion in his father's bed it really was a giant "WHAT THE HELL? Where did that come from in all of this?"  

Tywin despised prostitutes.  It was an utterly bizarre twist in the tale that the story didn't even HINT was possible.  Maybe the entire tale will come off better in the books, but every time I see Shae's name, I just get angry with how screwed with I felt by that story. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[SeanC]

Then there was something about her hanging from a tree  (or was it that he hanged her husband? ) and I thought Roose had done something like hand her over to his men and have her hanged.

It was the husband he hanged.  The wife he raped.

[stillshimpy]

Oh goody.  

 

Did he say what he did with Ramsay's mother, because knowing Roose Bolton he likely fed her to his geese (after slitting her from her guggle to zatch....Thurber fans unite).  

[Protar]

Well I think with Shae in the books, even at this point she's a much more straightforward character. She's a prostitute and there's not too much more to her character. She doesn't have this mysterious past, she's not ferocious. In the show they tried to make it this idealised, healthy and genuinely loving relationship. Which to say the least whitewashes Tyrion's actions. It came across as very jarring when she suddenly turned on him.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Protar

[SeanC]

Oh goody.  

 

Did he say what he did with Ramsay's mother, because knowing Roose Bolton he likely fed her to his geese (after slitting her from her guggle to zatch....Thurber fans unite).  

In the show, no, there was no further discussion of his mother in that scene, though Ramsay referenced her in season 3 in one of his scenes with Theon (though given that Ramsay is a serial liar, I suppose you can take that however you want).

[Eegah]

One of the more utterly baffling adaptation choices in Season 2, to the point where I honestly have less than no idea what they were thinking and I don't know why no one seems to have ever asked them about it, is what the deal was with Doreah. In the book, she simply dies crossing the desert, loyal to Dany the whole way. In the show, she betrays Dany for pretty much no reason at all, and ends up just as dead. Just...why? It seriously comes off like D&D just grew to hate the actress for some reason (especially if you've seen the deleted scene where she kills Irri in the most absurd manner possible).

 

Since I wasn't here to talk about it at the time, I'll bring this up now: it was interesting to see almost everyone talk about how they instantly latched on to R+L=J, because until now I'd assumed that it was a similar thing to RAB from Harry Potter, where with millions of devoted fans out there, a few happened to catch a couple scattered clues and posted online about them, and then everyone else realized how much sense it made and adopted it as their own theory (remember all the complaints about how "obvious" RAB's identity was, based on his being mentioned a grand total of two times across six books?).

Edited July 26, 2015 by Eegah

[nksarmi]

Actually R+L=J was kind of like the Sixth Sense for me - I was spoiled on the possibility before I read the books.  I admit, I think GRRM set it up well if that is what he does with it and frankly, I think it would be hard for him to write it any other way at this point, but I can't say if I would have put it together all that quickly if I was 100% unspoiled.

 

And as far as GRRM quotes - I don't necessarily consider them canon.  So while it doesn't bother me if I read something he says, I don't hold him to it either.  So to me the idea that "Dany isn't fireproof that was just a one time thing" isn't actually canon until he proves it in the books.

 

Interestingly enough, I can't remember Ramsey's background story in the books. 

[stillshimpy]

What in the world is RAB?  I've read the HP books and have no clue to what that refers.  

 

As for the whole Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon....I still don't know if that's the case, but it does seem pretty freaking obvious that Lyanna had a baby.  The term "bed of blood" is associate with childbirth and Ned barely got to have a full POV chapter without thinking about Lyanna and "promise me" etc.  So it really does seem like Jon has to be her son, seeing as in all that dwelling, Ned never even thought about the woman who was supposed to be his mother :-/  

 

I do think that it is pretty darned clear and Martin made sort of a strange fuss about Ned, whoever is supposed to be Jon's mother (and the whole...wouldn't ever speak of her...and then never spared her even a thought...but thought obsessively about his dying sister).   It really could still turn out to be that Jon is Lyanna's son by someone else, but then I can't make it make sense as to why Rhaegar would have made his Kingsguard guard her, even when they knew Rhaegar was dead.  

 

But RAB?  Huh? 

 

ETA:  Oh, Sirius's brother?  Yeah, I never figured that out and honestly, I thought the poor HP books became sort of bloated and overly convoluted....and yet, I still loved them :-) 

 

I really don't think that's comparable though, Eegah, I'd be surprised if there were fewer than six "Ned could hear Lyanna's voice, "Promise me, Ned...." s ....and that's not even counting the "never allowed to speak her name" stuff about Jon's mother...which comes from Catelyn and Robert and Jon.  I mean, dude went hammer and tongs on that sucker.  

Edited July 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Eegah]

Yeah, mostly I think I was just trying to justify my not catching anything about it until I looked up some message boards. In fairness, I spent a large part of my first read actively struggling to keep everyone straight (it really does help tremendously to have faces and voices to attach to the names, plus foreknowledge of who you should keep an eye on). I also read most of book one while on vacation in Mexico, with plenty of distractions.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Eegah

[stillshimpy]

Oh absolutely.  For it to stand out the mile that it does, you need to go into the book knowing, "So...Ned's totally one doomed mothafucka...so you might want to pay extra attention to the stuff he's mulling over...." because choices like that in a fictional construct are purposeful. 

 

But if anyone ever re-read the first book, even without ever seeing a fan theory or having read the second book, that stuff about "Wow, pretty much every chapter Ned has he ends up thinking about Lyanna making him promise something as she's dying...".  On a first read-through though?  I think Ned would have to be someone's favorite character from jump to have that stand out hugely.  It would still stand out, but Ned would need to be the character you're focusing on...and there are a million, jillion characters in this series. 

[Eegah]

One more neat tidbit: you may have noticed that it's Davos' left hand that lost its fingers in the book, which was changed because Liam Cunningham is left-handed.

[stillshimpy]

I never noticed that, Eegah.  I was one of the people bored almost stiff by all things Stannis until he showed up at The Wall in a very timely manner.  That proved to be the only time I liked him, as the whole thing with Shireen was going to be the thing that made me stop watching the show, if I hadn't decided to read the books.  I did find him interesting again when Brienne finally found him.   So I never paid a lot of attention to Davos and the strange "You have my loyalty for cutting off my fingers, you chilly jerk"  plot point.  

 

Now that is something I'm really looking forward to in the story: finding out if Brienne is anywhere near as luckless and useless as she tends to be in the series.  I like the character, but holy carp and other godly fishes, you need to get your affairs in order if Brienne is charged with safeguarding you or returning you to your family.  Poor woman is bloody well cursed in that regard.   I'm truly hoping (and again, please don't feel the need to fill me in) that her story will be better on the page. 

 

Tyrion's really is and  of course, one of the most frustrating things the series did, the book actually addresses:  Alliser Thorne actually shows the hell up with that hand.  Oh my god, that drove me INSANE ( more so) for years on the show.   Tyrion opts not to see him because he dislikes him?  Swell.  But at least it's an answer to "What the hell happened???"  which was made even more irritating by Thorne eventually just reappearing at the bloody Wall, as if nothing had ever happened.  

 

I am enjoying watching Tyrion's plans and actual skills at the whole managing and massaging of the various influences in Kings Landing.  That is fun and again, fleshes out something the show always told me, but never really showed me:  That Tyrion is actually gifted at the things that constitute ruling for the good of all vs. simply wanting power to have it and crow about it. 

 

I see that horrible bullshit with Dontos is introduced much, much earlier in the books than on the show.  Poor freaking Sansa.  I can sort of understand how fandoms became divided, because Sansa is so often juxtaposed with Arya.  Whereas it is entirely possible to be heartfelt sorry for both of them, poor Arya is dwelling in a damned hellscape and trying her very best to be loyal to the people around her, pretty much all the time.  

 

Admittedly, the story is pulling at least a little bit of a fast one when it comes to that:  Arya consistently encounters people who are protective, older males.  She ends up with a series of surrogate family members and Syrio's words practically guide her at every turn.  First there was Syrio, then there was Yoren, Gendry was clearly being a friend and keeping her secret, soon we'll be on to Jaqen ...and whereas I was never as fond of The Hound and Arya as others tended to be, he was yet another "she had a figure straight from the patriarchy, on her side".   

 

That doesn't change the fact that Arya is just brave as hell and at this point still compassionate enough to care about Weasel, Lommy (who ....oh my god...shut up with the yield, you poor, dead creature) , Hot Pie, and doing things like needing to bury Yoren.  She's not just some "seems like you always have a fairy godfather" type of figure, she's honorable, brave, smart and quick-witted.   It's just she really does seem to end up with figures that are almost like creations from a fairytale at her side.  She's easy to admire.  

 

Contrast to Sansa who has people actively messing with her, on purpose, trying to deceive her and use her.  Full grown adults who are trying to play some sort of Chess game with her...and she's a friggin' child.  She's completely outmatched and has no allies at present and worse still, she's being purposefully manipulated by her known traits.  

 

So I feel sorrier than hell for both of them and seeing as Arya is traveling through an actual war zone and being confronted by things that would psychologically traumatize me to this very day, it's difficult not to feel sorrier for her.  

 

Yet Sansa is completely helpless. She doesn't know how to fight anyone.  She never had anyone instruct her in the fine art of "What to do when people are purposefully fucking with you" and grown men punch her in the stomach wearing a glove made of mail if she says the wrong thing.  

 

I guess what I'm saying is that at least Arya stands a chance of living by her wits and escaping via the skills taught to her.   Those are the very things that are screwing Sansa over so thoroughly: the things she was taught.  A belief in honor.  A love of silly stories in which being pretty and good would reap some reward.  That acting in a way that was approved of by all would pave your way towards good fortune and happiness.  

 

All things Stark in Arya are the things that give her a fighting chance, including and especially Ned's decision to hire a fencing master for her, but also her Starkian inclination to act honorably.  Freaking Sansa grew up in the same household and believes that doing what she is told is what constitutes being good and honorable.  I feel sorrier than hell for both of them, but Sansa doesn't stand a damned chance in her circumstances.  

 

This is another area where having already learned what is to come makes things stand out more:  I want to squish Dontos like a damned bug for being willing to deceive and manipulate Sansa like that because whereas she isn't the wonderfully brave and honorable Arya, she did actually save his damned life.  Nice way to repay her, jackass.   Argh.  

Edited July 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

I think the big parallel between Arya and Sansa is that neither would have survived in the other's situation. If Arya had been captive in KL she wouldn't have been able to hold her tongue, she would have made some poorly planned bid for freedom and probably would have ended up executed or at least locked in a dungeon. And Sansa wouldn't have faired well out on the road. She has no fighting or survival skills. Sansa actually does a pretty great job navigating her situation, using courtesy as her armour and squeezing what agency she can from her captivity. 

[Delta1212]

Yeah, it's an interesting parallel. Arya is surrounded by dirt and muck and blood, and all of the allies she has tend to be gruff and dirty and occasionally nasty... but ultimately do protect her and look out for her to the best of their ability, each in his own way.

Sansa, meanwhile, is surrounded by finery and people who whisper sweet stories to her, but every person she thinks is on her side at every turn winds up lying to her and betraying her to a worse position than the one she was in before.

Arya has nothing but the trust of those around her and Sansa has everything but that, and what a difference it makes.

[chandraReborn]

Agreed. Arya is a girl who dreams of swordfighting and adventure; Sansa is a girl who dreams of castles and princes. Both get their dream and realize it isn't what they want. But there's a lot of different ways to read Sansa, and her acts of resistance are subtle but real. For example, from Chapter Two in ACOK, Joffrey tells her he's going to challenge Robb to a duel, and Sansa's all "I'd like to see that," and she saves Dontos from execution. So even though she's in a bad spot, she manages to find ways to fight back. 

[Eegah]

A couple adaptation choices I really liked in season two (god knows there weren't many, so I'll be fair here) were that Yoren gave Arya the idea for her nightly revenge list (as I imagine it would be kind of tricky to get across what she was doing without the benefit of her inner narration) and merging Bronn into Jacelyn Bywater to spare them from having to cast another actor and get invested in a new character when the show was really starting to get top heavy.

[SeanC]

This is the point in the telling where the show's version of Sansa really starts to go off the rails compared to the book version. The writers of the show really don't regard Dontos as anything more than a hairnet delivery mechanism, but his involvement is a lot more important than that. He gives Sansa something active to do, choices to make. Sanaa's still a child, but in this chapter she:

1 - Receives a secret communication inviting her to the Godswood, and has to decide whether to risk going, because it could easily be a trap. She chooses to risk it and try to escape.

2 - Having made that decision, she actually arms herself (with a kitchen knife, but hey, use what's there) and sneaks through the castle at night to get to this meeting.

3 - Upon arriving, she has to decide whether Dontos is trustworthy. She can see he's kind of a loser, but ultimately decides that it's better to try, since nobody else is offering.

The TV version never gets anything remotely like that. Indeed, the closest show equivalent to this sequence is Sansa sitting around in a sunlit garden, running away from Dontos before he catches up, and, rather than being enlisted in an escape plan, is given the necklace on a pretext. Sansa in the books gets to make real choices and show gumption, but the TV version is just dragged around.

Edited July 27, 2015 by SeanC

[Eegah]

I've heard that they did try to put in more of Dontos' story, but the actor did such a horrible job that none of it was usable. Granted, after the mess they made of last season I'm rather less inclined to give the show the benefit of the doubt on this stuff.

[Protar]

I've heard that they did try to put in more of Dontos' story, but the actor did such a horrible job that none of it was usable. Granted, after the mess they made of last season I'm rather less inclined to give the show the benefit of the doubt on this stuff.

 

There's been some truly abysmal acting in this show. The cast is mostly strong but there's been some really bad performances. I really have a hard time believing that Dontos' actor was so bad that they had to cut out his part. I think the show suffers from some poor planning. I kind of feel like Ros was all set to take Dontos' role, but then they changed their minds. 

[SeanC]

I recall the rumour about Dontos' scenes being cut for that reason, but I don't think there was ever a real source for that. Moreover, they brought the actor back in Season 4; if he was that big a problem they would surely have recast.

I don't think the Ros thing is likely either. That was also common speculation, but the writers made a point of introducing Dontos. They just didn't feel the need to have him around more than he ultimately was.

[nksarmi]

Yeah, it's an interesting parallel. Arya is surrounded by dirt and muck and blood, and all of the allies she has tend to be gruff and dirty and occasionally nasty... but ultimately do protect her and look out for her to the best of their ability, each in his own way.

Sansa, meanwhile, is surrounded by finery and people who whisper sweet stories to her, but every person she thinks is on her side at every turn winds up lying to her and betraying her to a worse position than the one she was in before.

Arya has nothing but the trust of those around her and Sansa has everything but that, and what a difference it makes.

I won't say too much because I can't remember how much the story differs from the show, but the one person in either situation that actually was honorable and true enough to help Sansa was Tyrion and to me - at least at the time - she just didn't get it.  I understand he is a Lannister, a dwarf, and at some point disfigured/scared (ugly) - but he was really the only person in all of KL that would have helped Sansa and - for a short time - had the power to do it.