Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

nksarmi · February 23, 2016

As outlined, the original trilogy would have needed polishing, but no - it's more than it would be done - it's that it sounds like it could have stayed a tight, logical read. My problem with this series isn't JUST that it's gotten all kinds of bloated - it's that it feels like the author is spinning his wheels to let something happen and lord knows if I can figure out what that something is. So he keeps throwing more characters and world building at us and making the story bigger and bigger and why?

I understand that GRRM didn't want to make Dany just a conqueror and he got enchanted with the idea of showing what happens when you conquer and then leave, but the time to get one of your main characters bogged down in a story like that is not BOOK 5. No, he should have skipped the war issues and just pretended that everything was working where she overthrew the slavers - the former slaves were making it work - yea freedom! Then they needed what I think that bit at the Citadel with Sam foretells - someone to show up and tell her that she is needed to save the world from the Long Night and give her a reason to name Hizzy boy King and appoint a trusted council while she sails with Quentyn to Dorne.

I don't want to see Dany go full circle. I don't want to see the return of her Dothroki horde (which weren't all that great and as others have said, should be defeated easily by the armies of Westerous). And I don't want to spend another book waiting for her to get off her butt and go take the Iron Throne. If he wanted me to care about her - he squandered my good will in book five. It's gone. I don't even care if she ends up trapped with the other former Khallissi's for the rest of her life. Free the dragons from their "mother" and let them find someone who cares about them!

This is one of the easiest explanations. They're waiting for Winter and maybe for the Wall to come down.

Winter is pretty clearly there in the books. They should be gathered in a menacing mass on the other side of the Wall making what's left of the Night Watch pee in their pants every night.

John Potts · February 23, 2016

WindyNights They're waiting for Winter and maybe for the Wall to come down.

Maybe so - but those are both things entirely under the author's control. Winter HAS arrived (with the white bird's appearance) and as for the Wall coming down - well there are a number of horns about that are said to bring down the Wall. GRRM doesn't NEED to resolve the "Battle for the North" FIRST - it would be somewhat ironic if what saves Stannis (not that he has to save him, necessarily) is the crash of the Wall coming down followed by an oncoming wave of the Others and the two sides have to unite against the Undead.

Delta1212 · February 23, 2016

Maybe so - but those are both things entirely under the author's control. Winter HAS arrived (with the white bird's appearance) and as for the Wall coming down - well there are a number of horns about that are said to bring down the Wall. GRRM doesn't NEED to resolve the "Battle for the North" FIRST - it would be somewhat ironic if what saves Stannis (not that he has to save him, necessarily) is the crash of the Wall coming down followed by an oncoming wave of the Others and the two sides have to unite against the Undead.

Well, really, though, everything is under the author's control to some extent. Sure, he can make Winter "arrive" when narratively convenient, but it does mean that there is a potential in-story reason for why the Others haven't stormed the Wall beyond just "the author hasn't said so yet."

I mean, practically speaking that is why, but there is a difference between setting up a reason for why something hasn't happened (that you have complete control over the timing of) and simply not having something happen for no apparent reason until you are ready for it.

Edit: In both cases, events are flowing directly (and visibly) from the author rather than from the previous events of the story, but in the former case they are at least aligning with the logic of the story, whereas in the latter case the timing of events is breaking the internal consistency of the story, which is a problem.

There is nothing terribly inconsistent about not having had the Other launch a full scale invasion yet, in part because Winter is only just bearing down on them, and in part because we don't yet know enough about the motives and tactics of the Others to tell what is inconsistent yet.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Delta1212

WindyNights · February 23, 2016

Well, really, though, everything is under the author's control to some extent. Sure, he can make Winter "arrive" when narratively convenient, but it does mean that there is a potential in-story reason for why the Others haven't stormed the Wall beyond just "the author hasn't said so yet."

I mean, practically speaking that is why, but there is a difference between setting up a reason for why something hasn't happened (that you have complete control over the timing of) and simply not having something happen for no apparent reason until you are ready for it.

Edit: In both cases, events are flowing directly (and visibly) from the author rather than from the previous events of the story, but in the former case they are at least aligning with the logic of the story, whereas in the latter case the timing of events is breaking the internal consistency of the story, which is a problem.

There is nothing terribly inconsistent about not having had the Other launch a full scale invasion yet, in part because Winter is only just bearing down on them, and in part because we don't yet know enough about the motives and tactics of the Others to tell what is inconsistent yet.

This.

@nksarmi Also narratively the Others can't invade too early or you risk Daenerys coming too late and she ends up invading an apocalyptic Westeros and then she'd wonder why the hell she'd want to live here and turn back to live in Merreen.

Also I think your version leaves Daeney much more of boring, straight hero which isn't something GRRM wants to write about. He wants to explore people's choices and their internal struggles.

He also wants to explore Daenerys' heroic and villainous side.

Edited February 23, 2016 by WindyNights

nksarmi · February 23, 2016

This.

@nksarmi Also narratively the Others can't invade too early or you risk Daenerys coming too late and she ends up invading an apocalyptic Westeros and then she'd wonder why the hell she'd want to live here and turn back to live in Merreen.

Also I think your version leaves Daeney much more of boring, straight hero which isn't something GRRM wants to write about. He wants to explore people's choices and their internal struggles.

He also wants to explore Daenerys' heroic and villainous side.

See here in lies the problem, you say my desire to have Dany sail for Dorne at the end of book five is boring. However, I think Dany is boring as anything right now - and was for the whole of book five. But what is far worse than boring - is that I do. not. care what happens to her. I am on record as saying I don't care much for Sansa's story, but because of who she is related to - I care more about what happens to Sansa than I do Dany. Hell, I'm more invested in Cersei right now because I want to see her fall. If Daenerys Stormborn, blah, blah, blah, never sees fit to grace Westerous with her presence - I couldn't care less. Maybe he can change my mind in book six. But at this point, I think the only investment I might make in her character is wanting Jon/Starks to defeat her if she ever gets her dragons under control enough and finds an army willing to set sail with her.

Now maybe if he hadn't given us (f?)Aegon in the same book where he - in my opinion - made Dany completely intolerable, maybe I could have held on to a small amount of investment. But I have to say, at this point, I want them to find a way to beat the Others without the dragons. They did it before. I'm routing for Jon to be the absolute savior of this piece, complete with magic from the Old Gods, Dire Wolves, and Greenseers. I'm almost at the point where if Jon and Dany ever meet, I'd be ok if it was on the battlefield - just as long as Jon wins.

Edited February 23, 2016 by nksarmi

John Potts · February 24, 2016

I agree with nksarmi - there are perfectly good "real world" reasons why Dany is stuck in Mereen, that doesn't make it interesting to read (and the fact that FAegon managed to build an army and do in one book what Dany had failed to do in three only makes that worse). And "realistically", it makes sense that she can't just turn up and save the day with 3 dragons: she doesn't want to abandon her people in Essos, just like Joffrey couldn't create a royal army. But The Others don't have those limitations, or at least, what limitations they do have are entirely at the whim of the author: maybe one of Quaithe's prophecies explains how they can't bring down the Wall until they find the Stone of Erech and perform the Rite of AshkEnte but until we get a White Walker POV, that could happen any time (or could have happened already). There is no reason why they need to wait for anything "human" to happen - the fact that their intervention might come at a terrible time for the people in the North shouldn't be seen as a negative, but a positive thing (from an authorial standpoint) because it builds dramatic tension: can Stannis and the Boltons (for example) who were killing each other moments before trust each other enough to fight an army of Ice Zombies that wants them ALL dead? Just because it would be disastrous for everyone in the North doesn't mean it can't happen.

And maybe the Others just want humanity to appreciate their performance art involving frozen horses, but after 5 books of "imminent threat" (they turn up in the Prologue of Book 1, FFS!) shouldn't they be seen to be doing SOMETHING by now?

WindyNights · February 24, 2016

I agree with nksarmi - there are perfectly good "real world" reasons why Dany is stuck in Mereen, that doesn't make it interesting to read (and the fact that FAegon managed to build an army and do in one book what Dany had failed to do in three only makes that worse). And "realistically", it makes sense that she can't just turn up and save the day with 3 dragons: she doesn't want to abandon her people in Essos, just like Joffrey couldn't create a royal army. But The Others don't have those limitations, or at least, what limitations they do have are entirely at the whim of the author: maybe one of Quaithe's prophecies explains how they can't bring down the Wall until they find the Stone of Erech and perform the Rite of AshkEnte but until we get a White Walker POV, that could happen any time (or could have happened already). There is no reason why they need to wait for anything "human" to happen - the fact that their intervention might come at a terrible time for the people in the North shouldn't be seen as a negative, but a positive thing (from an authorial standpoint) because it builds dramatic tension: can Stannis and the Boltons (for example) who were killing each other moments before trust each other enough to fight an army of Ice Zombies that wants them ALL dead? Just because it would be disastrous for everyone in the North doesn't mean it can't happen.

And maybe the Others just want humanity to appreciate their performance art involving frozen horses, but after 5 books of "imminent threat" (they turn up in the Prologue of Book 1, FFS!) shouldn't they be seen to be doing SOMETHING by now?

Well no. I mean what do you want the Others to do? They can't invade until the Wall falls down. And presumably because it's not Winter yet as well.

Personally, I really don't think think the Wall will fall down because the Others suddenly will it. Seems more like it'll be human means and realistically it seems the Wall will be involved in a mini civil war. The NW just assassinated Jon Snow one of the lynchpins for the Wildling alliance.

And if the Others invade while Stannis is fighting the Boltons then Stannis' forces die like immediately, You can't expect Roose to actually let Stannis into Winterfell. Roose wouldn't realize what's going on and the severity of the threat. Neither would Roose care. The guy just does things for mild amusement.

Okay and on the topic of Aegon, can I just say that I really like his concept just on meta reasons:

"There’s nothing organic about the way Young Griff was raised, and GRRM emphasizes this by introducing him to us as if assembled from hidden Hero Parts just offscreen. Aegon feels fake, in a way that has less to do with his lineage than with his own individual story. Namely, it isn’t his."

"Specifically, it’s half-Jon’s, and half-Dany’s. Let’s review: Aegon is Rhaegar’s son hidden away from Robert Baratheon’s revenge, posing as the son of a lord who has come to love him like one; the lord is upholding a vow to a loved one fallen during Robert’s Rebellion, and is permanently haunted by his memories of those days."

"And he’s also a Targaryen claimant returned to Westeros to overthrow the Usurper’s domain and reclaim the Iron Throne with Fire and Blood, with an exile lord and a bunch of sellswords and idiosyncratic wanderers by his side. "

"So on one hand, Aegon’s hijacked our protagonists’ destinies, a marvelous formal trick on GRRM’s part. On the other hand, it’s tragic that he can’t have one of his own; even his decision to invade Westeros is driven by Tyrion, seemingly on a whim. (How perfect is it that Tyrion makes perhaps his most consequential move when he’s seemingly at his most powerless?)"

WindyNights · February 24, 2016

See here in lies the problem, you say my desire to have Dany sail for Dorne at the end of book five is boring. However, I think Dany is boring as anything right now - and was for the whole of book five. But what is far worse than boring - is that I do. not. care what happens to her. I am on record as saying I don't care much for Sansa's story, but because of who she is related to - I care more about what happens to Sansa than I do Dany. Hell, I'm more invested in Cersei right now because I want to see her fall. If Daenerys Stormborn, blah, blah, blah, never sees fit to grace Westerous with her presence - I couldn't care less. Maybe he can change my mind in book six. But at this point, I think the only investment I might make in her character is wanting Jon/Starks to defeat her if she ever gets her dragons under control enough and finds an army willing to set sail with her.

Now maybe if he hadn't given us (f?)Aegon in the same book where he - in my opinion - made Dany completely intolerable, maybe I could have held on to a small amount of investment. But I have to say, at this point, I want them to find a way to beat the Others without the dragons. They did it before. I'm routing for Jon to be the absolute savior of this piece, complete with magic from the Old Gods, Dire Wolves, and Greenseers. I'm almost at the point where if Jon and Dany ever meet, I'd be ok if it was on the battlefield - just as long as Jon wins.

Oh the end of book 5 is more understandable than the end of book 3 . She'd just get curb stomped at the end of book 3 especially since her dragons are as big as dogs at that point, She still needs troops to win though and book 5 is setting her up for more. Ironborn, mercenaries, Unsullied, Dothraki hordes, and Essosi free men. She might actually have power to take Westeros once she's done.

Anyways I think part of the fault is that GRRM expected to skip or partially flashback to events that we read in book 5. Like her beginning chapter was supposed to be Dahznak's pit. But he cancelled the timeskip and we had trudge through some of that material that he never expected to write.

stillshimpy · February 24, 2016

I'm going to go back and read the most recent posts, but I completely forgot to answer Mya's question yesterday, because I sidetracked myself. It's my main lifeskill: Sidetracking. Pays little, I'll have you know.

So first up, meant to mention the We Have Concerns had a show about a town in Norway, where no one is allowed to die....or rather, they really discourage dying in the area, because your body will have to be removed. Why? Too fucking cold. Bodies don't decompose. This was discovered when they tried to dig some graves atop older graves back in 1911, because of a huge outbreak of Flu which couldn't have been the Spanish Flu, unless it started in Norway and one of the flu victims there was eventually transported elsewhere for burial...finally thawed and wiped out more people than WWI.

So many things in the recent posts actually brought that back to mind. Anyway, they tried to dig more graves atop older ones, assuming that the residents had returned to the soil, only to find they had a bunch of peoplesicles. So you can't die in this place of an illness, because they ship you right the fuck out to some place else and if you do break the rules, curl up your toes and die there, they basically FedEx your remains elsewhere. The natural question of "Why in the world wouldn't they just build a crematorium?" was not raised in the podcast.

This, of course, made me think of Zombonies on Zomponies and made me wonder if Martin actually had heard of this place when he started planning this novel. It also made me think of Coldhands "He died long ago" and yet was fully whole.

And Mya asked me if I had figured out which actors had read the books yet (not related to Norwegian Dead) .

Kind of yes, and kind of no. The one I absolutely figured out was Lena Headey and when I did, back in this thread, someone mentioned that I guess mom read the books and told her some basics, but she didn't want to know. Someone early said that Peter Dinklage says he has not read the source material. That genuinely surprised me, as I would have guessed him for a "yes" and that burns through people I know for sure one way or another, other than the actor who plays Brienne -- who apparently read the books when she was told fans wanted her to play Brienne. So I know her for sure also.

Okay, here are my final guesses:

Sean Bean: At first I would have said "yes, absolutely" but then Mya, you told me that he asked George Martin if Jon was really Ned's son (and that letter adds to the mountain of "Well, duh. No. Obvious from the first book, "Promise me, Ned!" and how only Arya and Jon looked like Starks from Cat and Ned's children...and Arya looked like Lyanna ) ...so I would have said yes, but that left me thinking, again, that it's "no".

Honestly, Sean Bean is the one I go back and forth on the most. I wish they had not cast the elder Starks older, to be honest. I love Sean Bean and he is a wonderful actor. After having read the books, I can't help but feel he wasn't quite right for Ned. Ned Stark wasn't dim after all. I wouldn't have gotten that from Sean Bean's portrayal.

Michelle Fairley: I'd say yes, absolutely without a lot of further comment. Cat is changed, but not the changed.

Stark kids using the character name, vs. the actor, because you know the downside to not having read press for five years? I genuinely don't know a lot of the actors names.

Robb Stark: Richard something or other? Yes, absolutely. I think he absolutely read the books, cover to cover and back again. Robb not being a POV character, and the performance the actor gave...either he takes direction incredibly well, or he read those books.

Jon/Kitt Harrington: Yes. I do think he did. Jon is such an internal character, he got stuck with some unpleasant tasks: voicing inner thoughts made him seem self-pitying when Jon was actually rather stoic, but that was the script decision.

Sansa/Sophie Turner: Too young when she started, I would think. Probably had her parents synopsize for her at the start, but then probably read all Sansa chapters and that was it, past a certain point.

Arya...Maisie Williams? (is that right?) Again, I bet the actor had parental duty at first, maybe read some later.

Bran: Same thing. I think maybe his parents would have let him read Bran's chapters after that first "saw the siblings screwing" thing, but nothing else.

Rickon: No and then there was seriously no need.
Osha: oh hell yes, she read the books, not that it would help her much, but she's another in the "I will PREPARE" actor pool.

Lannisters:

Cersei/Lena Headey: I would have said "no" anyway at this point, but actually know it is a firm "no"

Jaime: Nikolai Waldau...can never remember his name....No. I don't think he has read the books. Like EVER. When it comes to his character, apparently he has the showrunners for company on that.

Tyrion/Peter Dinklage: Would have said "yes" just learned it was "no".

Tywin: Actually , that one I know is a firm "no"....a fan told him he was going to die. So, no. What would I have guessed? Uh. Yes, I would have guessed "Yes" and been wrong.

Lancel: Maybe? Actually I'm going to ammend that to "Yes." I think he did, but that it wouldn't really have informed his performance. Season five

but by season five, the way he was playing his arc, yes, I think he did read them.

Joffrey: This one really surprises me, but I think Jack Gleason read the script and interpreted things from there. His Joffrey was AMAZING...but that's the not the character on the page. That's the Lena Headey Special for a Lannister. More than Martin envisioned.

Boltons (to get them out of the way)

Roose Bolton: Don't even have a guess at the actors name any longer. Yes, I think he read them.

Ramsay: Uh...maybe? I don't care. That's not the same character on the page to the screen, so it's hard to tell. Nothing wrong with the actor, just HAAAATTTTTTTEEEE the character onscreen and on the page.

Assorted King's Landing:

Littlefinger Aidan Gillan (I knew him from The Wire): Yes, I think he has. I think he's made really different choices when it comes to how he interacts with Sansa in particular, but I think they were purposeful. Just like playing him as almost disinterested in all thing sexual. I think he did that on purpose, but that it was a choice he made after reading the text. Just strikes me as an actor who fucking PREPARES.

Varys Colin Hirth (maybe?) Yes. I remain convinced that he really has availability issues, but that the showrunners love him so much, they work around his schedule and let him dictate it. That's wise.

Pycelle: Probably. Same reason as Gillan. Strikes me as an actor who prepares.

The Hound: I still don't know. I think ...maybe...? Or not? He lacked a lot of the menace page hound had in some of his interactions with Sansa, but it may have been that the actor, just like Aidan Gillan, got that it is just disgusting to have a grown man perving on a teenage girl. That that will end up defining the character beyond ALL else for most audience members. If the two characters ever meet again, I would not be surprised if he plays to that a little, but that's because Sophie Turner is now an adult.

The Mountain: Oh, it so wouldn't matter. The role has been a revolving door.

Daenerys Side of the World:

Jason Momoa/Kahl Drogo: I think yes, he did. I think Jason Momoa is actually a far more serious actor than people like think he is and he'd want to have the chance to be considered for something more than his looks. Specifically I think this because I remember him from Stargate Atlantis, where he was hired for beefcake and still brought a lot to the role.

Viserys/Harold Lloyd (and easy one to remember) : Yes. I think he did and he was another one who just made the character more. I sometimes wish there was a way for him to be back in the story.

Jorah Mormont/ ...name escaping me...no. No I don't think he read the books. If he did, he made a choice to only take a bit of it to inform his choices. One thing about the actor's Jorah is that he's an incredibly graceful actor. He has beautiful posture. There's a scene when he's walking towards the pit where Dany burned and ...he's a classically trained actor, I'd swear to it, that's a guy who has taken all kind of movement training and he's as graceful as cat. Jorah Mormont decidely isn't.

That's the one that I'm fully prepared to just be wrong, but am just sure. If he read it? He then threw it away and started from scratch with a character outline.

Daenerys/Emilia Clarke: Yes, I think she has read the books and I think she has done a very good job. She makes very...ardent...choices for how she plays against the tennis ball that are her dragons, but it works and I think she has read the books.

Daario. First guy...yeah, maybe? I thought that actor was horrible, but then it turned out, "oh, that's the character? Turns out that actor is awesome, who knew?"

Second Daario: No and I think that was very intentional. When one actor is fired because "we decided to go in a different direction" ...most actors take that hint.

Anyone else?

Oh The Wall Crew:

Sam. No. That actor did not read the books. His initial Sam is just pervy. Fits for a teen boy, had nothing to do with Book Sam who is, almost literally, afraid of his own penis, so ...no, that actor did not read the books.

Thorne: Eh? Yes. Same "strikes me as a trained actor who does his prep as a way of life"

Aemon: Yes, same deal. Older British actors who primarily work on stage? They prep out the Wazoo. Honoring The Craft and all that. Remember that scene when Jon finally clues in and asks, "Who are you?" to Aemon Targaryen? The actor knew exactly who Aemon Targaryen was. It was ....eerie...because he absolutely looked like he was a relative of Harold Lloyd's Visery's in that moment, just a tiny glimmer of crazy without the cruel.

Lord Commander Mormont. I am completely unsure on him. I think yes, but that is, again : Listen, stage actors are just a different kind of actor. They don't go all Method on shit....they read the living shit out of things.

Wildlings: Jebus, does it matter?

Mance Rayder/Ciaran Hinds: One would hope not because he was not playing Mance Rayder, even a little.

Ygritte: I think so. I think Rose Leslie read the source material.

Thormund: uh....maybe? Probably? Could be? I mean, he's good and he's an awful lot like character, so I think...yes. However, I also think that Thormund is a broad character, and a type. So it kind of doesn't matter.

Stannis Baratheon and various Baratheons:

Mark Addy: Yes. Yes, I think he read the source material and like a lot of the first season crew, he just did more with what was there because he had to. Robert is a thin character on the page, so I think he built from: Okay, so this guy loves Ned Stark like a brother? Make that one of his animating forces. It's why screen Robert is kind of awesome, whereas page Robert? Jackass.

Stannis: I honestly don't know. I honestly don't even have a strong guess. I think ...no? I mean, he played that scene with Melisandre where he says "I killed my brother for this!" in a way that...it turns out book Stannis doesn't realize he's murdered Renly.

Daavos: Maybe, but his Daavos is sooooo much fun.

Selyse: Eh...? I think so, but that's not based on much.

Melisandre: I can't believe she actually did, if that Melisandre POV was available to her ....and it should have been....because she's not playing the same character.

Bringing up the Rear because these were two of the biggest failures in characterization on the screen, I think: The Reeds. I think that Jojen's actor might have? Meera? I don't know. I would have said no, until the whole "Oh shit, they put the 'we distrust you!" behaviors that were aimed at Coldhands (and...dude was dead, so ....yes, distrust that, it would be prudent...people who don't eat, sleep, drink or poo are to be viewed with a leery eye) ....on to ...Osha. The only reason the Stark boys lived."

So I think the actors did and then the show kindly shot them in the foot for it.

dragonbone · February 24, 2016

edit:

I removed this

Edited February 24, 2016 by dragonbone

WindyNights · February 24, 2016

Mark Addy (Robert) read all the books.

Sophie Turner (Sansa) has confirmed that she's only read Sansa chapters.

Kit Harrington ( Jon) read the first four books but he was holding off on reading the fifth book for a reason. I think it was partly that he got too way ahead of the character's mindset when he was still trying to portray early Jon. He might've read it before season 5.

Allie Allen(Theon) read all the books.

Maisie Williams (Arya) had her mom read her the first book only. But before that her mom read all the books and filled her in on a little of Book Arys's story because she was too young to read them.

Nicolaj (Jaime) hasn't read the books but his mom has. And she fills him on stuff from time to time.

Harry Lloyd( Viserys) has absolutely read the books.

Interview with Harry Lloyd:

"You became a fan of the “A Song of Ice and Fire” book series [after being cast in the Game of Thrones pilot]. Has your opinion of Viserys changed at all from playing the character to reading the book? How did one inform the other?"

"When you read the books, you see him through is sister’s eyes, so you see him as this simple, spoiled, frustrated brat who’s cruel and belligerent, and obnoxious, and very unlikable. In terms of playing him, I had to move away from that to find that even though he’s done terrible things, what’s his point of view? Where did he come from?"

"As soon as I looked into more of the history of the Targaryen family and actually read the other books, I found out more and pieced together his backstory, and he became sympathetic. I understood more what motivated him, and the fear he had, and the responsibility he had, and his childishness. I mean, he never really had a parent. That changed a lot my view from reading it to playing it."

And can I say that Harry Lloyd's Viserys is so fantastic that I always picture him when I read the books as well as his voice.

I'll have to check on the others.

Edited February 24, 2016 by WindyNights

ImpinAintEasy · February 24, 2016

I maintain that NCW's portrayal of Jaime was one of the best on the show the first 3 seasons, and the writing has really let him down since, at least to the point where he can't do much with the character. I believe he has done everything short of reading the books, including reading fan message boards.

As for the others, I know Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke read the first four books. I believe Alfie Allen(Theon) has read them, but not positive. Harry Lloyd(Viserys) read them. Ciarin Hinds was photographed with one of the books, surprisingly. The actress who played Shae read the books, and is actually fairly chummy with GRRM. Rose Leslie(Ygritte) read them. As for the rest, I have no idea. I'd guess most of them haven't.

WindyNights · February 24, 2016

NCW made a huge mistake in episode one. Show Jaime said "The things I do for love "in a smug voice rather than with loathing like his book counterpart

I felt that was huge difference and made Jame a lot more unsympathetic.

But the show might have done it on purpose as Jaime is a darker character in the beginning seeing as he's a also kin-slayer on the show as well

stillshimpy · February 24, 2016

iarin Hinds was photographed with one of the books, surprisingly.

Was he spitting on it, by any chance?

NCW made a huge mistake in episode one. Show Jaime said "The things I do for love "in a smug voice rather than with loathing like his book counterpart

That was a giant, mammoth, gargantuan, entirely avoidable mistake. It was...not worthy of him as an actor, honestly. He was better than that as actor, honestly, so I am going to blame the hell out of the director and the onset writer for that.

I actually know a tiny bit about the first season "writer's room" ....there wasn't one. The writers were hired and given an assignment to read the material and recreate it. I only know this because of long Jane Espenson podcast interview I listened to. So the writer flopped there (and if it was George Martin...oh the humanity....for not giving any kind of direction) the director flopped for not knowing it was wrong and you know what? So did the actor. He should have done better research and found out that Jaime wasn't a POV character, that he's only ever seen through other characters in that first book. That by itself should have made him decide to read it, because he'd ALWAYS have room to take it in his own direction. It was frankly lazy as fuck.

And a child picked up on "with loathing" ....I mean, seriously, I'm embarrassed for the actor on that one...and he's a good actor. He just made the wrong choice there.

Edited February 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

Audreythe2nd · February 24, 2016

I will defend NCW's portrayal of Jaime with my dying breath (uh... ok, maybe too intense). I think several changes to his character are a natural result of having to adapt a book to TV, especially in this case where in the books you have a third person limited PoV structure where Jaime isn't even introduced until the third book. Therefore, Martin has the luxury of having the negative portrayal of Jaime mainly be through everyone else's eyes, and then when you hear (ie. read) his voice finally, you're like: "Oh. He's not the guy everyone thinks he is." The show actually hinted at this duality nicely during Season 1 with some scenes like the one with Tywin, and the ones of him and Ned in the throne room, him and Robert in his chambers, but overall it's more effective on TV to make it a true redemption story - ie. give him slightly darker shades and have him change his ways. I suspect Jaime becomes a great hero or leader by the story's end, and it's much more impressive and effective on TV to do a full "villain" ---> "hero" transition rather than a "guy who is misunderstood and not so bad" ---> "hero" transition. It's not that I'm saying what GRRM is doing in the books with his character is ineffective (on the contrary, it's incredibly effective) I'm saying that he has a different trick and narrative tool at his disposal, one that makes a huge difference in perception.

I don't think there's anything that has happened in the show that puts him irrevocably off-track from where he's supposed to be in the books, not even Dorne (the character is barely in ADwD, and NCW needs screentime). They're probably getting to his main AFFC/ADwD arc this season.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

ImpinAintEasy · February 24, 2016

My problem with show Jaime is that (season 5)

he has still not turned away from Cersei. That's not to say it won't happen, but delaying it has stalled his development. Cersei has been compared to a drug that Jaime was addicted to, and I feel sober Jaime is far more interesting. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner he and Brienne are reunited on the show, the better. Nicolaj and Gwendoline have such great chemistry together.

WindyNights · February 24, 2016

I think this is semi relevant:

Interviewer: Both Jaime and Cersei are clearly despicable in those moments. Later, though, we see a more humane side of Jaime when he rescues a woman, who had been an enemy, from rape. All of a sudden we don't know what to feel about Jaime.

GRRM: One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don't have an answer. But when do we forgive people? You see it all around in our society, in constant debates. Should we forgive Michael Vick? I have friends who are dog-lovers who will never forgive Michael Vick. Michael Vick has served years in prison; he's apologized. Has he apologized sufficiently? Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise? Or Roman Polanski, Paula Deen. Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you're a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard? I don't know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then? [Martin pauses for a moment.] You've read the books?

INTERVIEWER: Yes.

GRRM:Who kills Joffrey?

Interviewer: That killing happens early in this fourth season. The books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey.

GRRM: In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

Interviewer: I don't know if somebody like Jaime or Cersei can be redeemed. Cersei's a great character – she's like Lady Macbeth.

GRRM: Well, redeemed in whose eyes? She'll never be redeemed in the eyes of some. She's a character who's very protective of her children. You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they're her children? There's certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization. At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don't have any kids myself, but I've talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn't just trying to kill Bran because he's an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I've asked people who do have children, "Well, what would you do in Jaime's situation?" They say, "Well, I'm not a bad guy – I wouldn't kill." Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he's going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, "Yeah, I would kill someone else's child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent." These are the difficult decisions people make, and they're worth examining.

I like hearing GRRM talk and explain things.

This interview was one of the more enlightening interviews that he's given. Would rec people to read it.

Here 's the link if anyone wants to read it: http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3

Edited February 24, 2016 by WindyNights

Lady S. · February 24, 2016

Nicolaj (Jaime) hasn't read the books but his mom has. And she fills him on stuff from time to time.

I think that was just a joke he made after Maisie said that. I know there was another interview where he said he read the first three books and then read only Jaime's chapters in Feast/Dance.

I maintain that NCW's portrayal of Jaime was one of the best on the show the first 3 seasons, and the writing has really let him down since, at least to the point where he can't do much with the character. I believe he has done everything short of reading the books, including reading fan message boards.

As for the others, I know Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke read the first four books. I believe Alfie Allen(Theon) has read them, but not positive. Harry Lloyd(Viserys) read them. Ciarin Hinds was photographed with one of the books, surprisingly. The actress who played Shae read the books, and is actually fairly chummy with GRRM. Rose Leslie(Ygritte) read them. As for the rest, I have no idea. I'd guess most of them haven't.

Alfie read the first two books then gave up when he realized Theon was off-page in Storm. I think he caught up with Dance because I remember him saying he looked forward to filming Theon before the heart tree, which never happened on the show. I don't think Sibel actually did read the books because at one point she was unaware Shae was going to die. I know Finn Jones (Loras), Hannah Murray (Gilly), and Ron Donachie (Rodrik Cassel) read the books, as did Esme Bianco, even though she knew that Ros was an invented characters. Oh, and Kate Dickie, who played Lysa, she read the first three books to really understand the character. It's hard to tell with some of the others unless they're outright asked, because I think they're all pretty spoiled about what happens in the books.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Lady S.

Terra Nova · February 24, 2016

I remember an interview with Kit Harington And Richard Madden together and them exchanging knowing looks when one of the two talked about the mystery surrounding 'Jon Snow's parentS', so I would say both have read the books.

Rory McCann (Sandor), totally, and he gets super embarrassed when someone asks him about SanSan (obviously, since in Season 1 he was more than thrice the age of Sophie Turner).

Conan Stevens (the first Mountain): yes and he was super excited about the role, he kept suggesting ways to delve deeper into the character.

Nicolaj Coster-Waldau, I would swear he read the books because of some interview with Gwendoline Christie (but the two of hem go along really well, so maybe she filled in the book details)

Stephen Dillane (Stannis): not at the start, for sure, since he said he came on set knowing virtually nothing of the character and his motivation and being forced to extort some information from the showrunners (again, they never gave a fling about Stannis and their 'improved' version SAtannis the Burner)

Finn Jones (Loras Tyrell): yes and in first seasons he complained loudly with the way Loras was portrayed; in later years he has made a 180° and now is bashing those pesky booksnobs who criticize the show (together with Maisie Williams... it's the invasion of the body-snatchers!)

Natalie Dormer (Margaery Tyrell): no and she's been led to believe that Tommen and Marg have an active sexual relationship in the books (she said so in an interview saying she was not comfortable with that, but the showrunners cannot stray away from source material, so... *lesigh*)

Iain Glen (Jorah Mormont): only the first book, and as he said (from here :http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-07-23/game-of-thrones-showrunners-tell-the-cast-not-to-read-george-rr-martins-books):

But beyond that, the writers themselves, David and Dan, they didn’t particularly want actors coming to the scripts from the book, always suggesting what the book did and how it was different – I could see the glazed look in their eyes when that happened.”

He concluded: “They were quite happy for us to move forward and treat them as screenplays with no history, so that’s the reason why I only ever read the first novel

Fun fact: the actor playing Podrick Payne is the son of the actor playing Rodrik Cassel :)

Not-so-fun-fact: the commentary for 'The Rains of Castamere' was the first time Michelle Fairley had a look at the finished episode, and she was bawling her eyes out by the time they were killing Robb; the director, on the commentary too, was so embarrassed that he started to fill the awkward silences punctuated by Fairley's sobbings with some 'commentary for the visually impaired' in which he just spelled out what was happening on screen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBIAzBwadCc

Edited February 24, 2016 by Terra Nova

WSmith84 · February 24, 2016

God, I used to watch the episodes with commentary. I even watched the Red Wedding episode with the commentary from the weapon designers or whoever. Season 5 I could barely force myself to watch after the first few episodes. There's actually quite a funny bit between Michelle Fairley and Nikolaj Coster Waldau in season 2 where they're talking over Robb and Talisa's sex scene.

And yeah, the writers never had a clue what they were doing with Jaime, except in season 3 where I thought they did a decent job. But otherwise, he's almost a different character and an inconsistent one at that. I find it impossible to predict how he'll behave in any given scene, and I really don't think that this is down to any kind of necessary change to the character.

stillshimpy · February 24, 2016

I like hearing GRRM talk and explain things.

Michael Vick and Hitler? Really, Martin? Way to live Godwin's Law there.

I understand that the actor is popular and super good-looking, which is often a very purposeful choice when casting characters who are ....I'll go with not good men, at least at the onset.

For instance would it matter if Ramsay had a huge change of heart in the books? He's been described as essentially ugly. Martin does seem to be playing with the reaction people have to beauty: that a beautiful person must have done something to earn, to merit that beauty. We will forgive a beautiful person a great deal more than a plain person. So I think that's probably one of the psychological strings he plucks with Jaime.

I did get a laugh out of the Hitler thing, because good lord, talk about the well trodden road there. "Would you kill Hitler in his cradle?" being the "we got really, really stoned Freshman year in the dorms and three history majors decided they were feeling particularly deep that day."

I think Martin has done an interesting job with Jaime in the books, but holy crow, that interview doesn't really go far towards making it seem a dazzling intellectual pursuit.

Maybe Martin is actually unaware that he's playing with that societal notion, but there's almost no question that's part of what he's doing, as witnessed by meeting up with the Unquestionably good Brienne, the opposite of Cersei, and a character who it is rare that Martin will go a full three paragraphs without reminding us: Boy is she a woofer.

This is probably going to shock the shit out of everyone, but I think that Michael Vick was a product of an environment that prized dog-fighting. He did so many insanely cruel things. People who grow up in extreme often lack empathy and compassion. However, people can't change if we won't let them. We should let him try. We should encourage him to try. We should make him earn and if he does? Let him earn it.

Ted Kennedy left a young woman to drown and ran the fuck away, tried to protect his own ass. Did something reprehensible. By the time he died, he was known as the Lion of the Senate. A champion for people with little recourse in their life.

Oscar Schindler was apparently a real piece of shit as a human being, and he still did something unquestionably good.

No one is defined by their worst or their best act in a vacuum. Or they shouldn't be. Accumulated actions though, that does bring a person more into focus. Michael Vick can never atone for what he did in my eyes, but he should keep trying. Also? If he ever comes near any of my dogs, I don't care how big he is and how brutal he is. I will find a way to heave a Volvo at his head if I need to to keep him away.

But as this all pertains to the actor's choices when it comes to Jaime? He left no room for ambiguity in that line-read. None. It was a bad call by everyone and he is a good actor, but that was a bad choice. Doesn't define his entire performance, or his abilities, but it was not a good performance choice because it was too definitive. Lena Headey in that exact same moment made entirely different choices and left room to consider "Whoa....? What precisely did she want in that moment?" NWC just...kind of didn't and it's a very high-definition medium. To explore what Martin is expressing I think the actor genuinely needed to shade that choice more.

Edited February 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

stillshimpy · February 24, 2016

Just thinking about it some more: I think Martin is doing something more interesting with Jaime and less frequently acknowledged as a deciding factor in our world than he either realizes, or is admitting to there.

The question of redemption, who is redeemable, etc. is so old there is actually an entire religion based around it. It's not fresh stuff.

However, when I went to do a few chores something kept nagging at my mind: Hey, he can't really think that's all he's doing, right? Because the stuff with Brienne is very frequently revisited. However, there's nothing to say that writers have tremendously keen insight into everything they are doing when writing a story. Things slip in subconsciously and I wondered if that was the case here.

I don't really know much about George Martin as a person and I'm actually not going to speculate beyond this: He seems to go out of his way to have fan interactions, answer questions, prize fan art. Seems to love his wife, his friends. Seems like a good egg to me. That's my sole speculation on him.

But I think he's doing with Jaime and that the beauty = merit equation is purposefully at play, because to start Jaime's redemption he maimed the character. I honestly don't think he's unaware of some of the stuff he's doing. He may just not be voicing it.

ETA: Sorry, one other thing that interview unintentionally answered for me is what the hell Martin is doing with all that shit about the ....turkeys....because it was way the fuck out of control in Dance. But it got weird in Dance because he just incorporated into a culture he was writing. As much as I rant, rave, hop up and down and use excessive profanity whenever it comes up, it isn't as if I have failed to try to figure out: Why?? Are you doing this.

Martin just answered that, whether he understands that he did or not with the inclusion of having friends who think Michael Vick can never be forgiven. The way that was phrased indicates to me that he's on the opposite side of those arguments when they come up with his friends.

For once having no "I commence hopping" reaction, I'm just going to talk about this as normally as I can. I currently live in a suburb of St. Louis. I will soon be moving to a suburb of Los Angeles. Two things those places have in common? Bad problems with dog-fighting rings. I fucking hate dog-fighting on a level I can't adequately express. I've seen what happens to bait dogs, I just....you guys get the gist. Every time you've ever seen dancing around with rage on page, there's something that fed that feeling and a lot it came from my four years in this area. I didn't realize how prevalent dog-fighting was.

It's a beyond disgusting practice. I cheer every time a ring is busted. I mean, I literally do a little dance of joy. But I'm also aware that there are many things that feed that problem and one of them is poverty. One of them is economic inequality and despair for the future that leads to desensitization and loss of compassion for suffering of animals, of people, in general.

It's a symptom of something that ought to draw compassion from people, towards the people who live in a world, where the rest of humanity cares so little about their own fate, they've turned around and taken that out on the animals around them. In the SATs of life Society is to poverty, what poverty is to dog-fighting.

That is about as calmly as any rescue person can ever discuss that. There's a cause, callousness and cruelty are the results in many cases.

I think George Martin has likely argued that when talking about Michael Vick. So when in Dance he switched to ...turkeys....as a food source and special mention will always go to the concession stand at the fighting pits (<---- NEON SIGN....you think that was any kind of accident, because I sure don't) ....I wonder why he was inviting his readers to view this with increasingly less and less outrage.

I now see what he was doing. Hey the first time some spectacularly shitty happened to a ...turkey....in this series, how did you react? When Lady, with her ribbons and her pet-status was unjustly, but humanely killed, I bet a lot of people cried. I cried.

By the time the Wildling Lady with her fucking Turkey Head Fetish rolls around, it's becoming more and more commonplace in the story.

By the time we hit Mereen, it's dinner and by the time we hit fighting pits....it's popcorn.

I hate that vein in the story, but I now know what he was doing and why. Or think I do.

Edited February 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

Mya Stone · February 24, 2016

That's the first time I've ever watched the Red Wedding with commentary.

Why am I crying?

mac123x · February 24, 2016

I thought it was weird that he mentioned Paula Deen in the same breath as Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. I thought her grave offense was using racial slurs in the past. That's bad, but I don't think it belongs in the same category as abusing underage girls.

Maybe I missed something considering I don't give a damn about any of those people.

Terra Nova · February 24, 2016

D: here, Mya, take this snippet, the one WSmith was talking about, it's funny!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ufu9ekQmMI

But yeah, I didn't cry when I saw it the first time - actually, I was a little underwhelmed but hey, booksnob ^^' - and yet I was crying like a fountain with the commentary T.T

Delta1212 · February 24, 2016

There are too many examples of GRRM playing with the Beauty = Good, Ugly = Bad trope that exists both within stories and society at large for that to be a coincidence. He knows exactly what he's doing there, even if he didn't voice it in the interview.

And really, I don't expect that he's going to go into every layer of meaning and things that he is trying to do with each character in any given interview. Most interviews like this are fairly shallow by their very nature, so of course it's mostly going to be the most well-tread material that gets discussed because those are the easiest themes to articulate and talk about with your interviewer, and most of the stuff that makes any one particularly interesting character exploration good is often the details of how the author goes about it, which is obviously going to get lost in the broad overview of the subject.

So in an interview, of course you're just going to say "I'm interested in exploring redemption" and give a few easy to understand examples to make your point. You're probably not going to go into very much depth on the subject of all the different ways you are playing with that theme, how someone's appearance affects how their actions are viewed, how variable information on motives and the timing at which that information is uncovered impacts how people view things, how other circumstances interact with the whole process.

You have beautiful people doing terrible things, ugly people doing wonderful things, beautiful people doing wonderful things and ugly people doing ugly things.

You have people slipping slowly into darkness from a place of goodness. You have good people making compromises.

You have conflicting values and loyalties where both options presented may be good or evil depending on how you look at them. How are these things prioritized?

You have people who do seemingly terrible things for good reasons.

You have people who do terrible things and are then punished severely for them or rewarded handsomely.

And I think to some extent, a lot of this is GRRM setting up a variety of different circumstances and seeing which ones more readily allow us to empathize with a character, agree with them or simply forgive them.

But these are things that might be difficult to discuss with any depth in a coherent manner in a typical interview.

Audreythe2nd · February 24, 2016

I think one of the things that George R.R. Martin cements in that interview linked upthread, is that how we're supposed to feel about Jaime (insofar as author intention goes) is that he's slowly being redeemed. Martin doesn't actually leave room for the reader to really consider otherwise with his responses, like when the reporter discusses how terrible his/Cersei's actions are, he talks about his sociopathic portrayal of Cersei, but has a completely different outlook on Jaime's choices. Whether or not you think he's been particularly successful as a writer at portraying this is another thing, but I only mention it because there are a lot of people that I've had discussions with who feel Jaime is completely irredeemable. And I'm just like, "That's all well and good, but you might want to understand where the author is taking this character so that you're not surprised at the actual plot." What is the actual plot going to be? I'm not sure, but his comments about redemption and forgiveness don't make me think that Martin has Jaime slotted for some comeuppance that we're supposed to rejoice at. He has a relatively straightforward and predictable character arc in this respect, at this point in the story (because he's made it this far). JMO.

stillshimpy · February 24, 2016

But these are things that might be difficult to discuss with any depth in a coherent manner in a typical interview.

I can't quite agree there, but I can definitely see why he might take a pass on broaching the subject. It's just not a comfortable one for people to contemplate, or even necessarily a helpful thing to underline in his work. "I'm actually just experimenting with our obsession with exteriors" isn't exactly going to have crowds yelling, "Yay!! Thank you! We love being lab rats, reflecting societal pressures in our preferences!"

Same deal with playing around with how people can be desensitized to things through almost any kind of repetition. That people can fairly quickly start to accept things as a norm.

He's actually been fairly overt with the themes of superficiality and how it determines opinions even with characters in the books. Quentyn is someone Dany easily dismisses and a lot is made out of how plain Quentyn is, vs. outright ugly.

I think it's probably just easier to talk about "I'm writing about the Redemption Road and why do we let some people on it, while others can never pay a high enough toll to earn their place on it?" vs. not being able to concisely or coherently talk about subject.

I rarely read what authors have to say because, honestly, they're storytellers. That's not the same as saying "What shocking liars writers are" because...no, that's not it all, it's just sort of dog chasing it's own tail, you know?

I wish that the show had given Jaime's character more of a chance to develop along the way. It sort of comes and goes in sneezy spurts. He saves Brienne: Oh! He wants redemption. They get back to King's Landing and Infamous Crypt Scene Action.

Season five

although for sheer "well, that was darkly comedic and seemingly intentionally so" was Myrcella's death scene -- who I can't help but notice made it out of Dance alive -- "I'm glad you're my father! I'm proud you're my father! And from your perspective it will now look as if the gods themselves have smote me for being proud of such a thing. *dies in judgment of Jaime's sins*" You kind of have to hand it the show, it takes some serious chutzpah to have Stannis tell Shireen he loves her and is proud of her, specifically so her burning scene will suck that much more....and then reverses that dynamic "I love you and I'm proud of you, daddy" ....and dies in judgment of all things Lannister. * Although, I don't think I'll ever quite get over the sneering cartoon they turned Elaria Sand into. I spent a lot of the fourth book waiting for her to enter, calling for pieces of a child and instead it was "are you insane? Wanting to take this out on an innocent child?"

I know I should read Dany's chapter. I do. I just....I have so little interest in it. So far I've learned that she craps herself and that was not exactly the best lure. "Oh good, involuntary defecation. What ho, fun times!"

Martin doesn't actually leave room for the reader to really consider otherwise with his responses, like when the reporter discusses how terrible his/Cersei's actions are, he talks about his sociopathic portrayal of Cersei, but has a completely different outlook on Jaime's choices. Whether or not you think he's been particularly successful as a writer at portraying this is another thing

What I said was that I don't really think that's all that he's doing. Redemption has been around as a book theme since the New Testament, if not before. So it's a case of "Okay, that's a given, that's clear....that's a fairly common theme....doing anything else?" and I don't think Martin chose to talk about what else he was doing there. However, I think he is purposefully and intentionally doing something else as well. Additionally.

In the book I think Martin's done a good enough job with that, actually. It's the Show I don't think has.

Edited February 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

WindyNights · February 24, 2016

@shimpy If it helps, the last Daenerys chapter is really good imo and her best one in the book.

I also find it kinda beautiful in certain areas.

Edited February 24, 2016 by WindyNights

Terra Nova · February 24, 2016

I will put under spoiler a sort of teaser of Dany's chapter, something I think can pick Shimpy's interest; but please, Shimpy, do not feel urged in any way. This is your topic after all, and if you should still feel so uninterested, even after reading the spoilers in this topic, discussing some fan theories, and who knows, even after eventually reading the two short 'stories' about the first Dance of Dragons, well, there is always the small recap on A Wiki of Ice and Fire, so that you can at least see how Dany arc ends. Anyway, among other things:

Dany has a 'dream' where Viserys confronts her and she deals with the responsibilities she bore in his death.

As I said upthread, it's the best part of the chapter for me, and one of the highs of Dance. And I am far from a Dany fan. It is also another good example of the show transposing the same actions of the books but with an opposite outcome.

OR, you can always hope the poo accident is the beginning of the bloody flux that will strike down Dany in the first chapter of Winds XD

Edited February 24, 2016 by Terra Nova

Audreythe2nd · February 24, 2016

What I said was that I don't really think that's all that he's doing. Redemption has been around as a book theme since the New Testament, if not before. So it's a case of "Okay, that's a given, that's clear....that's a fairly common theme....doing anything else?" and I don't think Martin chose to talk about what else he was doing there. However, I think he is purposefully and intentionally doing something else as well. Additionally.

Sorry, my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular (apologies if it came across that way), just a general response to the interview posted and thoughts on conversations I've had with fans of the story in general. I agree with you that's not all he's doing. I just meant that it's one interesting piece of evidence that if (not saying anyone here is) a reader is thinking, "This Jaime guy is still the "villain" of the story and should be/will be getting his just desserts very soon because I can't forgive him for trying to murder a child," while those are justifiable natural reactions, the author's comments lead me to believe that's not really what he intends the reader to be feeling, and therefore such emotions shouldn't necessarily inform the future storyline. Not really a response to anyone's particular comment, just my own spitballin'. :)

WSmith84 · February 24, 2016

Well shimpy, there is something in that Dany chapter that will probably make you tear your hair out and yell 'why the f&^% did the show leave that bit out?!'

stillshimpy · February 24, 2016

Well shimpy, there is something in that Dany chapter that will probably make you tear your hair out and yell 'why the f&^% did the show leave that bit out?!'

Okay, well you all know I think fury is good for the complexion so onwards it is. Thanks Terra, good to know because as someone else who is just a little over the Dany Helter Skelter thing (Beatles Song, not Manson Family) ...okay, I can do this. I'll take priobiotics or something.

Aha! Okay, I did misunderstand, Audrey . Even the "good", lawful good, characters in this series have done things that are into the grey zone. I mean, I think Ned's always going to be the Whitest sort of Hat that this particular story produced and among other things, he lied to his wife for the entirety of their marriage, on a matter that was a source of pain for her. Not up there with Gravity Checks for Eavesdroppers, but he also killed Ser Arthur Dayne, the brother of the girl he might have been in love with, in the course of doing his own duty, to try and get to his sister ....not saying that was wrong, but poor Arthur Dayne must have died thinking, "This royally sucks, because it's not like I couldn't see his point, but an Oath's an oath, dude....and now I'm dead....because I was trying to keep someone from rescuing a family member. Awesome way to die conflicted."

Also, no matter how "I was doing my duty" about it they all were, for every man killed in a rebellion, there's a chance many are left to starve because of his absence. For every village won and sacked, there are innocent people just trying not to get dead. Pretty much as soon as anybody starts killing anyone in the name of anything....the need for redemption might come into play.

I think that was sort of Martin's point also, in that interview, might have been better to leave a few of those folks out of it and not just because apparently everyone feels the need to talk about Hitler's cradle.

Edited February 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

Ashara Payne · February 25, 2016

An alternative to killing Hitler:

(Trigger warning:rape joke)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xoiShfknA

stillshimpy · February 25, 2016

Oh, okay. Well I finished Dany's chapter and I can see what you mean. They should have included the dreams/visions/ghosts of Invasion Yet to Come telling Dany to get the hell back on her way to Westeros. She's the blood of the dragon. She's apparently had a miscarriage? So....womb, quickened?

I wonder what kind of Peyote type berries she's meant to have eaten?

Quaithe and the whole ....get back, get back, that's how you'll get to where you really belong stuff. Viserys, truly not looking his best and honestly, not adding a whole bunch other than a little bit of his own perspective, that he loved her in his own weird ass, psycho way and actually is part of the reason she made it to the age she did. Selling his mother's crown and all that.

She misses Jorah and....she better hope she really is immune to all manner of disease. It also sounded like the only way to make Mirri's stuff come true was to lock her dragons away, because when she turned her back on her children/dragons that's what...what...took the curse off her reproductive organs?

I did like the ants and the Wall....and laughed at "You are the blood of the dragon, blah blah blah, you can make a hat."

I don't know why, it was wonderfully mundane. But oh my god, more still with the repetition. "If I look back...." you'll see a horde of fans telling you to get the fuck on with it already. Gads. More "Daario! My Daario!" junk and still more mooning over Drogo.

So that's done. Dany thy name is Tedium and Repetition. Also, Jesus much, Martin?

WindyNights · February 25, 2016

@shimpy Excellent muahaha. You are officially over the wall.

But there are still the TWOW sample chapters to tackle:

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/twow

You'll find Theon, Alayne, Mercy and Arianne there. Choose whichever most interests you. They're all excellent imo but I do have a clear favorite. .

Tyrion I, Barristan II, Vic I and Arianne II are only available to us in summaries. You don't need to read those.

Tyrion II is available through an app and Barristan I is available with the US ADWD paperback editions.

Edited February 25, 2016 by WindyNights

Alayne Stone · February 25, 2016

Okay, you've read the Dany chapter so now we can all openly discuss it.

I think one of the big things about Miri's "prophesy" that people tend to point to is that it has been largely misunderstood by the fanbase. People have misinterpreted it to mean that Dany is barren and will never have children, but the line (and I'm sure someone will come along and quote it for me) seems not to suggest that she's barren, but that her "sun and stars" will return to her when her womb quickens again. Apparently she has, as she seems to have just miscarried.

So ... prophesy seems to be fulfilled. What exactly it is that will return to her remains to be seen.

On the concept of redemption: I'm still not entirely convinced that Jaime's actions are redeemable, but I can understand the idea of the value of forgiveness. I think when all is said and done, Jaime will be remembered for both good deeds and bad. The fact that whether or not he is a redeemable character is what makes him such a compelling character in the books. It spawns discussion. I'm one of those people that does not believe the good washes out the bad but I suppose there is something to be said in how a person is at the end of their life; how they choose to examine past misdeeds, hopefully learn from them, change from them, etc. The book does a wonderful job with this.

The show (and Nicolaj ... who has said in interviews something along the lines of it being ironic that the two people who truly love one another are siblings) ... just completely picked up on the wrong aspect of his character arc. They seem determined to focus on this supposed love story that really doesn't even exist in the novels. Consequently, Jaime's character has probably suffered the most for it in the show but that whole dynamic between them, the refusal to break them apart, has had an affect on all three of the Lannister siblings.

I am also of a mind that seasons 1-3 did a wonderful job in adapting book Jaime to the screen with the exception of a few already noted moments (like the "things I do for love" line). Or rather, I think seasons 2 and 3 did an absolutely fantastic job. I find it so hard to believe that Nicolaj has not read the books at all because the bath tub scene was so very on point in season 3. They were going in the right direction with him and then things just changed in season 4. And it seems irreversible now. I'm sure the show will still hit the major plot points of the books, one of which I believe will be Jaime as Cersei's volonquar ... but it's going to fall flat in the same way Shae and Tywin's death fell flat because the journey has been forever altered for show Jaime.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Alayne Stone

WindyNights · February 25, 2016

@Alayne and everyone else

This is actually something that people mess up on all the time. Drogo will not return when Daenerys' womb quickens. The quote goes:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Emphasis on when your womb quickens again and you bear a living child. Daenerys didn't bear a living child at that moment so it can't refer to Drogon.

Either Daenerys will never be able to bear a living child and MMZ's just being fancy when she says never or......Daenerys will meet Drogo again in the afterlife once she bears a living child.

Meaning she dies in child-birth just like her mom did.

ImpinAintEasy · February 25, 2016

I was sort of surprised at how much people were hyping the final Dany chapter. I don't consider it one of the better chapters in the book. Sure, crazy Dany hallucinating again is pretty telling, and her decision to go full Targ at the end hopefully finally drives her toward Westeros in TWOW, but other than that, I'm not sure what is so special. Did people expect the show to bring back Harry Lloyd for the hallucinations? While that would have been interesting, they haven't been willing to delve into dreams/hallucinations, unless it involves Bran.

stillshimpy · February 25, 2016

I thought the "you won't be able to believe they left that part out" referred to Dany clearly deciding the time had come to roll forth towards the Seven Kingdoms.

I can sort of see why the show didn't, because it has taken so long in the story, it would be a case of "What's that Lucy? Another football for me to kick?"

Sadly, it was one of the better Dany chapters in the book, I thought. It's just most of Dany's chapters were less than stellar in Dance. There were a couple of good ones in there. In the Dragon Pit and then Hallucinating were both good chapters.

I wonder if Miri's curse/prophecy meant...when your womb quickens again....okay, if she's miscarried that means she can conceive....and (much later you then) bear a living child...(not Drogo's) then he will return to you....?

I don't know, I feel bad about this, but Dany is just boring me nearly to death at this stage. I used to really, really have no patience with the story at The Wall. Well in the books, that becomes one of the most interesting stories. Meanwhile, I guess something had to fill that "Oh, this soporific. Goody" void in my life: Enter the Dragon.

Ashara Payne · February 25, 2016

Barristan I, Tyrion I, Mercy, Theon and Arianne I are all available in the WOIAF app, which is actually a lot of the content that they left out of the book due to lack of space.

Delta1212 · February 25, 2016

Also, there are indications that the great grass Dothraki Sea is drying out.

It'd be kind of tragically funny if Mirri Maz Duur was just telling Dany how long it would be before Drogo came out of his coma and then she went and killed him when he would have eventually been fine.

Autarch · February 25, 2016

I haven't actually haven't checked if it was legitimate (and I don't really know how anyone could unless they were there and remembered it word for word), but apparently Arianne II is floating around out there as well. Seems some bad fan did record the reading and typed it out afterwards.

Terra Nova · February 25, 2016

I wouldn't say we were overhyping the chapter (I have to defend myself from this baseless slander! :P), but truly is the culmination of Dany's journey in Dance.

Shimpy said something really poignant after the first Dany's chapter, the one in which she deals with the petitioners, that she was learning the wrong lessons. I told myself I would have brought up that specific point after this last chapter.

The point is not only that she decided to go to Westeros: she decided that dragons do not plant trees, that's to say that they don't and can't create anything, only destroy. And she now decided that's what she wants to be.

She tried to rule, and while her intentions were good, her grasp on the 'rules of the game' was pretty poor: she swinged back and forth on several matters (I will never stop saying it, once you decide to abolish slavery you HAVE to renounce any dream to sail to Westeros, it's something that will take the rest of your lifetime and then some more!), put her trust in the wrong people, took care of too much micro-managing and then left the important stuff to her husband to do as he pleased, and so on. And nothing went as she wanted anyway. Again, I know she tried her best, but now, instead of thinking 'maybe I am ill-prepared for ruling, I should learn some more', or even 'I don't like to rule, it's plain, maybe I should not be Queen of Westeros', she decided 'that's not who I am, I hate all these freaks, and from now onward I'll do as I please with FIRE AND BLOOD!' And lo and behold, now she forgot the name of the burned girl, the only thing left to separate her deeds from those of the slavers she punished (I listed the rest after Shimpy read that chapter).

And this is underlined by her changed attitude towards Viserys: in the first half of the book she thought that he would have had Daario beheaded for the insolence he was showing to her, then she resorted to a very Viserys-esque line with the 'I am the blood of the dragon, do not presume to teach me lessons'. So he's been floating on the edges of her mind for most of the book, with itself is a departure from the oblivion he ended up in books 2 and 3.

And the dream is important because here Viserys is a figment of Dany's mind: she's been telling herself that he was right, that she betrayed him (she doesn't really manage to convincingly absolve herself from his accuses). And the last we see of him is that truly chilling scene were he laughs madly at the thought of unleashing terror on the world through dragons. Something Dany comes to agree with few paragraphs later.

Same applies for Daario: now, first a small clarification, since it's a tricky topic and I've seen how easily people get accused to slut-shame Dany and 'internalized misogyny! Patriarchal brain! Why don't you talk about Jon mistakes?!' (I'm sure no one in the current topic would actually do that, it's just to make myself clear).

I think Daario as a plot device, character facilitator, prop for other storylines, symbolic figure, whatever name you want to call him, has a much heavier weight than 'Daario as a character in his own right'. So, while I mantain that Dany can sleep with whomever she pleases, I also think that we as readers are supposed to second-guess her decisions here, because, as said upthread, Daario represents her most violent instincts, even more than the 'Daario=war, Hizzy=peace' comparison (which I think is true anyway, considering Dany has to learn that peace is a compromise and should leave both parties unsatisfied, to be a really good and fair deal); and Dany since book one has already equated sex with violence and power (see her musing that the best part of Drogo is his hair, the proof he's an undefeated warlord, and in the Pit the frantic 'yes yes take me take me' when she mounted Drogon).

In the first half of Dance she says herself she should be horrified by Daario's lack of conscience, and tells herself she must not allow him into her bed, or he would 'master' her. Then she changes her mind, but only before her marriage! Then she starts to have doubts about that and sends him away as a hostage. Now she chose him over Hizdahr and peace and compromise, again in a situation were she's bloodied to the elbows (and between her legs, lol). This is the same attitude she had with 'violence', or her inner dragon. From being scared of it and of becoming a monster to embrace it. In the end she chose Daario, the one who proposed the Red Wedding: Slaver's Bay. In the end she chose to be the conqueror, with the conquer and the inevitable bloodshed as her final goal and that alone.

So, a lot of people say that her rule in Meereen should symbolize her making increasingly bigger concessions to the other parties until she loses herself, and that when she's at her lowest, her inner self comes to rescue her in the form of Drogon! Yay! And later she finally reasserts her identity, averting the risk of losing herself! Double yay! We should cheer for a character that stays true to himself, right?

Except... her inner self is a child-eating monster, the identity she reclaims is the one of a ruthless conqueror who won't compromise anymore. Are we truly supposed to be happy? It's like a young Hannibal discovering and embracing his murderous tendencies and his true self... yay?

No, in my mind her rule in Meereen was unsuccessful not because she compromised with the slavers, but because she had no long-term plan and not enough skills to handle it and when everything went south she blamed someone else and picked the wrongest lesson out of it. I do not doubt that she will be more than happy to attack Pentos, kill some thousands and give it to the Tattered Prince once she'll learn that Illyrio 'betrayed' her by having a spare Targ with him.

Nor I doubt she will unleash Drogon on the Dothraki and relinquish them for her own purposes after styling herself as the Khal of Khals and the Stallion that mounts the world. That's what I meant with my last comment on the events being the same, the take the complete opposite on the show: she's not gone full-Targ and she's again a damsel in distress, but don't worry! Aragorn and Legolas will soon find the brooch she left in the plains of Rohan and save her before the Uruk-hai take her to Isengard (♫ to Isengard to Isengard-gard-gard-gard! ♫)

I will post on another completely different topic this evening once I'm home, I have there all the quotes and links I need for that (I beseech you, spirit of AppleMartini, give me courage and give me strength XD)

Also, something funny:

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/139921836273/asbraveasrobb-grrm-why-did-you-put-a-dick

Edited February 25, 2016 by Terra Nova

feverfew · February 25, 2016

I think one of the things that George R.R. Martin cements in that interview linked upthread, is that how we're supposed to feel about Jaime (insofar as author intention goes) is that he's slowly being redeemed. Martin doesn't actually leave room for the reader to really consider otherwise with his responses, like when the reporter discusses how terrible his/Cersei's actions are, he talks about his sociopathic portrayal of Cersei, but has a completely different outlook on Jaime's choices. Whether or not you think he's been particularly successful as a writer at portraying this is another thing, but I only mention it because there are a lot of people that I've had discussions with who feel Jaime is completely irredeemable. And I'm just like, "That's all well and good, but you might want to understand where the author is taking this character so that you're not surprised at the actual plot." What is the actual plot going to be? I'm not sure, but his comments about redemption and forgiveness don't make me think that Martin has Jaime slotted for some comeuppance that we're supposed to rejoice at. He has a relatively straightforward and predictable character arc in this respect, at this point in the story (because he's made it this far). JMO.

The thing about author intent is that it'll only get you so far. It can't be the reader's job to hunt down interviews with the author to understand what he's getting at. I don't doubt that Jaime is on a path of redemption of sorts, and I do enjoy his chapters, but I don't know if his redemption comes from that inner sense of having done something morally wrong, or if he simply feels compelled by that empty page in the book about King's Guards. And this is coming from someone who thinks they botched his characterization on the show. But for Martin to stand up and tell me I got it wrong; that Jaime truly has realized that his moral compass (always pointing to Cersei) is wrong - I hope that wasn't what he meant, because I don't get that from the pages. "...and Moonboy for all I know" makes me think that his rejection of Cersei has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with sex.

The line reading never bothered me much, because I'm one of those who thinks that Jaime will never be truly redeemed for what he did, at least not in the sense that he'll ever be a celebrated hero, forgiven by the Starks. Besides, that line in itself always bothered me. I know it's a fan favourite, but I never felt that it was natural, if that makes sense. It's too constructed, too clever. For me, "The things I do for love" could never be read as anything other than smug - it's too much of a quip. I try to imagine it said with pain or remorse, and ... nothing. If he had simply said something in the vein of "I love you" I think I would have liked it better. It's not nearly as fancy (or lends itself to fan quotes), but it would have been more real.

Terra Nova, I loved your reading of the last chapter. I still can't let myself believe that Martin would turn his magical princess into the enemy (I'm one of those fan who thinks he's not nearly as subversive as people think he is), but oh, how I wish he would At least it would finally make her interesting again. (On the other hand, the romantic in me would have her ending be her return to house with the red door, prefereably with Jorah in hand. But I try to quell that voice ;))

mac123x · February 25, 2016

Terra Nova, I loved your reading of the last chapter. I still can't let myself believe that Martin would turn his magical princess into the enemy (I'm one of those fan who thinks he's not nearly as subversive as people think he is), but oh, how I wish he would At least it would finally make her interesting again.

Her inner journey might not be complete yet. She could be on the path to learning to integrate her peace-loving-I-want-to-plant-trees self with her fire-and-blood self. There's no reason she has to be one or th other -- Aegon the Conquerer was both a conquerer and a just ruler.

GertrudeDR · February 25, 2016

Sweet Jesus I have finally caught up in this thread. Sorta. There was liberal skipping of side discussions and spoiler bars and lots of focusing on Shimpy's take and conversations immediately following her posts. That was a fun (and exhausting) read.

Shimpy, I love your take on things. It comes from a pragmatic place that kind of cuts through the bullshit to the core of what's there. You don't excuse people for their actions, but rather understand where they are coming from. In fact, I've been pleasantly surprised by the quality of the discussion from all participants. The fan-base is large and it's often quite ugly. So thank you all :)

There have been many things I've wanted to comment on as I've been reading, but that's on me for not being here and if it comes up at this point, I'll chime in. If it doesn't, that's ok too. The one thing I do want to throw out there is Cersei's show portrayal. I like Show Cercei, and I like Book Cersei. My problem is that Show Cersei doesn't exist in a vacuum and her impact on Jaime's show arc is damaging. I love Lena Headey and what's she's done with the character, but the showrunners have taken her in a direction I think is long-term damaging for a short-term gain. I about had a fit when Show Cersei told Tywin 'Screw you Dad! I'm going to tell everyone about me and Jaime and you can suck it!'. I mean .... what the hell did I just watch?!

Haleth · February 25, 2016

WindyNights, thanks for the link to the TWOW chapters. I'd read a couple of them but hadn't seen the rest.

I just finished Theon's chapter and it was a lightbulb moment regarding the pink letter. It seems clear (to me, anyway ;) ) that Stannis will force the maester to send word that Stannis is dead and his army defeated. Stannis can use the ruse by displaying Karstark colors and walk right up to Winterfell's gate, which will then be opened to let him in. (Of course he has to defeat the army of green boys heading toward him first.) Until this happens Ramsay will believe the message to be true and will send off the letter to Jon.

stillshimpy · February 25, 2016

And the dream is important because here Viserys is a figment of Dany's mind

I'm going to have to go back and read the rest in a bit, Terra, but here's the thing: We actually don't know that any of that was a figment of Dany's imagination. In this supernatural forces are real. So why do you think that was just a hallucination and just things from her head? I didn't.

I did not assume that was Dany's subconscious talking to her. Every time she's seen Quaithe I assumed she was seeing Quaithe, not hallucinating. Fate in this story is a real force and Dany spent the entire book trying to play a different role than fate has in store for her.

I did not think that was Dany talking to Dany about things she's been repressing. I could be wrong -- because that is always a possibility in every darned thing I say -- but I thought that much like Bran's dreams are not Bran's dreams, I thought Dany was encountering her actual spirit guides (sorry for the new age terminology, but I'm not sure what to call it....her fateful string pullers, maybe?)

So I have to run errands, but on my way out, there has been something I've wanted to ask since I started Feast....which was sort of chore-like to read, but I ended up liking it quite a bit. I don't quite know how I feel about Dance. It felt like a filler. It felt like stalling.

Is there any general consensus in the fandom about what rank of preference the books have? I'd be really interested to know. I'm also really excited to finally read everyone else's thought on the full story.

That was a fun (and exhausting) read.

I get that a lot ;-) "You're fun, but not for the iron deficient, am I right?" Seriously, thank you.

The thing about author intent is that it'll only get you so far. It can't be the reader's job to hunt down interviews with the author to understand what he's getting at.

Fully agreed on that, feverfew, but in all fairness to Martin, he's not subtle about whether or not that is viewed as a forgivable action or his intent. I didn't need to read that interview to know where he was headed with Jaime.

He had both Catelyn and Ned Stark essentially absolve him in their minds. "For my own children, would I have not...." blah blah, bloo bloo, quack" ....now, as I've said, that's horse shit. No parent would do that in those circumstances. There might be some circumstances where a parent would think "Yes, you tried to kill my child, but I understand why and think I would have done the same...." but that involves shit like "The parents of the would-be-axe murderer/gun-wielding-maniac/deranged-rapist might actually think "Oh man, I get why you had to try and kill my son for that". It completely didn't fit those circumstances because Jaime and Cersei got themselves into that trough of shit and no one in their right mind would think "To protect your almost lifelong mistake and deviation from all that is good or justifiable, I get why you tried to kill my son and think I would have done the same thing..."

But it did make Martin's intent crystal clear.

Edited February 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

vibeology · February 25, 2016

Is there any general consensus in the fandom about what rank of preference the books have? I'd be really interested to know. I'm also really excited to finally read everyone else's thought on the full story.

I'm not too deep into the fandom, but my understanding is that A Storm of Swords is the consensus favourite, then A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings and then the final two have much more mixed reviews. I could be wrong, but that is what most of my fandom reading has led me to believe.

Edited February 25, 2016 by vibeology

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