Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

Any giggling is because we were all there once, reading along happily, forming our own opinions about what was happening, when, BOOM! Martin fooled us again. (Not that I'm referring to anything that may or may not be happening in the next 900 pages.) Ah, nostalgia!

[mac123x]

Regarding the difference between Show!Jon and Book!Jon's actions around Mance's death, part of it is the show's limited cast.  After the S04.09 Battle of the Wall, the Night's Watch is reduced to 50ish people.  In the book, it's closer to 500, so Jon actually has men he can command instead of having to DIY everything.

 

So Jon talking to Bowen Marsh and the whole pantomime with the Wildlings being forced to ape bending the literal knee, it's clear where that is all heading, but the key thing is that Jon isn't blind to that.  He's the one sussing it out.  He's the one making note of how it's meaningless and you can't buy actually loyalty with a bowl of onion soup for starving people.

 

Yeah, Jon knows the risks are really high, but he's thinking big picture, that the threat from the Other's is much worse.  I do find it a little frustrating that despite his arguments, he's unable to convince the senior NW guys like Marsh.  I understand Marsh's perspective, based on his experience the Wildlings are the enemy, and in normal times Jon would agree, but these aren't normal times.  Their willful blindness, despite the first-person accounts from the survivors of the Fist of the First Men, just grates.

 

Season 5:

Show!Jon is even worse, since he doesn't even seem to try to convince the senior NW.  Maybe it happened off-camera, but he never gathered all 50 NW in a room and gave them a briefing about Hardhome.  "Yeah, so, the White Walkers attacked, we barely got away with a few survivors, and the Army of the Dead just got 10k new soldiers.  They'll be coming for us next, and we ALL need to work together to stop them."  He gave a great rousing speech to the Wildlings, but it doesn't look like he bothered to fill in Thorne or anyone else.

[WindyNights]

@mac But they (don't read this shimpy)

do get convinced to go along with Jon. It's only when Jon turns full on obvious oath breaker and make himself look like a second Night's King that some of the brothers have enough.

[stillshimpy]

Any giggling is because we were all there once, reading along happily, forming our own opinions about what was happening, when, BOOM! Martin fooled us again.

 

Oh and you know, even if there are times that it's just laughing at me, I'm totally cool with that.  I'm aware that sometimes I pursue things in odd directions, or in very willful ones.  I've mentioned my son has read the books now.  When he started, I explained the whole Unsullied thing and told "We try to figure out what's going to happen" and I will never be able to do his tone of voice justice with this, but it was like the most pleasant poker player in the world, concealing whatever was in his hand, because he didn't scoff, he didn't roll his eyes, he just very levelly said "Good luck with that" and only because I know him well, did I realize "oh wow, that has to mean some truly bizarre stuff happens because he just made the effort to make his voice entirely neutral."  He's my kid.  He usually has pronounced opinions (I'm sure you're all incredibly shocked). 

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ImpinAintEasy]

@mac But they (don't read this shimpy)

do get convinced to go along with Jon. It's only when Jon turns full on obvious oath breaker and make himself look like a second Night's King that some of the brothers have enough.

 

They follow orders, as does Ser Alliser in the show. I don't believe they are ever "convinced". I think FTW was planned far before the Pink Letter, and the wildlings were still the main reason for the mutiny. The Pink Letter simply accelerated the plan, IMO.

[WindyNights]

They follow orders, as does Ser Alliser in the show. I don't believe they are ever "convinced". I think FTW was planned far before the Pink Letter, and the wildlings were still the main reason for the mutiny. The Pink Letter simply accelerated the plan, IMO.

 

That seems very unlikely (don't read this shimpy)

as the plan was really spur of the moment and the wildlings were only one factor to the equation. It really did seem like an "Oh, shit, guys, we better kill him now before he takes the Watch and the Wildlings south and do every possible amount of oath-breaking in the process." Like Bowen is most likely about to get killed for what he just did like in the next 10 seconds after Jon dies. There's also the fact that Jon confirmed in front of a big audience that he did a bunch of shady shit behind the NW's backs and that he was oath-breaker the entire time. If parts of the NW only killed Jon because of the wildlings then it erases that what happened to him was a consequence of his constant oath-breaking. Plus GRRM already confirmed that this was what he was going for.

Edited December 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

@Imp I would specially read this part to understand what I mean more (don't read this shimpy)

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/other-wars-part-v-the-peace-the-pink-letter-and-the-shieldhall-speech/

Go to the part down this link that has the sub-title Bowen Marsh- For the Watch

 

DON'T READ ANY OF THESE SPOILERS SHIMPY

 

It starts off from this paragraph in the link btw 

 

Bowen Marsh is bigoted against wildlings, is rather cowardly, had grave misgivings about Jon’s leadership, and complained and criticized until his throat was dry. Yet despite everything, in Jon’s penultimate chapter Bowen stood aside and let 3,119 wildlings through the Wall. He followed orders. This indicates that Bowen had no intention of killing or deposing Jon before the Pink Letter and the Shieldhall speech. It simply makes no sense for Bowen to wait until just after the Watch becomes vastly outnumbered by wildlings, rather than launching the attempt the day before the wildlings cross. So, why did he end up doing it? Well, there’s more to Bowen than irrational hatred of wildlings. For one, he feared the consequences to the Watch of a Stannis loss, but Jon promised he’d choose no side

Edited December 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

I just ... want you to keep reading, Shimpy.

 

I haven't been saying as much lately because I don't want to inadvertently spoil anything because as someone has said earlier, the trickiest thing to not spoil is the things that don't end up happening.

 

Not for Shimpy:

I can't wait for her to realize that wasn't Mance burning. I don't trust myself to even remark at all on that chapter. She's right on the money without being right on the money with that "this just doesn't seem like the way Mance would handle it" comment.

 

I'm also very much looking forward to being able to have completely open discussions about all the characters when this is over and done with.

[ImpinAintEasy]

@Imp I would specially read this part to understand what I mean more (don't read this shimpy)

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/other-wars-part-v-the-peace-the-pink-letter-and-the-shieldhall-speech/

Go to the part down this link that has the sub-title Bowen Marsh- For the Watch

DON'T READ ANY OF THESE SPOILERS SHIMPY

It starts off from this paragraph in the link btw

Bowen Marsh is bigoted against wildlings, is rather cowardly, had grave misgivings about Jon’s leadership, and complained and criticized until his throat was dry. Yet despite everything, in Jon’s penultimate chapter Bowen stood aside and let 3,119 wildlings through the Wall. He followed orders. This indicates that Bowen had no intention of killing or deposing Jon before the Pink Letter and the Shieldhall speech. It simply makes no sense for Bowen to wait until just after the Watch becomes vastly outnumbered by wildlings, rather than launching the attempt the day before the wildlings cross. So, why did he end up doing it? Well, there’s more to Bowen than irrational hatred of wildlings. For one, he feared the consequences to the Watch of a Stannis loss, but Jon promised he’d choose no side

I actually have read that before, and while I understand the role Jon's oathbreaking had, I do feel like it wasn't the sole reason for the mutiny. That blog does a very good job at making the reader understand Jon's role in his own downfall, and I mostly agree with it. However, I believe FTW was in the works before the pink letter. We know Ghost was hostile to some NW members the day before the PL arrived. Also, in Jon's final meeting with Marsh, he arrives 'snuffling'. Could it simply be the weather that caused this, or was he already getting emotional about the plan to kill Jon? As quick as things happened, the mutineers had to have been prepared to kill their LC. Surely they had already discussed the possibility of assassinating him, and the Pink Letter and the chaos that ensued with Wun-Wun gave them the opportunity.

Edited December 23, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[WindyNights]

It depends on whether )don't read this shimpy)

Ghost knows what's about to happen that day before even Bowen knows or he only knows because they're planning on it that second. Remember these direwolves are magic animals. The wolves also reacted to Tyrion even though he hadn't done anything wrong or planned on doing anything wrong at that moment.

Edited December 23, 2015 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

Didn't mean to spark a flurry of spoiler bars.  I'd suggest we postpone that discussion until later.

[nksarmi]

shimpy - I'm sure this is no surprise to you, but over the next 900 pages you will get into areas where there lies nothing but theory and waiting for GRRM to publish that next damn book! :)  So if it makes you feel any better, some stuff people have inadvertently hinted at here aren't really even spoilers exactly - just some people prescribe to some theories more fervently than others (like the meaning of some of the many prophesies that have been mentioned over the course of the books).

[jellyroll2]

That seems very unlikely (don't read this shimpy)

as the plan was really spur of the moment and the wildlings were only one factor to the equation. It really did seem like an "Oh, shit, guys, we better kill him now before he takes the Watch and the Wildlings south and do every possible amount of oath-breaking in the process." Like Bowen is most likely about to get killed for what he just did like in the next 10 seconds after Jon dies. There's also the fact that Jon confirmed in front of a big audience that he did a bunch of shady shit behind the NW's backs and that he was oath-breaker the entire time. If parts of the NW only killed Jon because of the wildlings then it erases that what happened to him was a consequence of his constant oath-breaking. Plus GRRM already confirmed that this was what he was going for.

That seems very unlikely (don't read this shimpy)

as the plan was really spur of the moment and the wildlings were only one factor to the equation. It really did seem like an "Oh, shit, guys, we better kill him now before he takes the Watch and the Wildlings south and do every possible amount of oath-breaking in the process." Like Bowen is most likely about to get killed for what he just did like in the next 10 seconds after Jon dies. There's also the fact that Jon confirmed in front of a big audience that he did a bunch of shady shit behind the NW's backs and that he was oath-breaker the entire time. If parts of the NW only killed Jon because of the wildlings then it erases that what happened to him was a consequence of his constant oath-breaking. Plus GRRM already confirmed that this was what he was going for.

Not for shimpy

I don't think the plan was spur of the moment. I think the execution of it was. I do think that group was at least discussing the idea of doing this. Once Jon was about to march on the warden of the north with a wildling army behind him, essentially deserting his post, did the assassins pretty much choose to kill him at that moment, the worst possible time. I doubt those particular 3 or 4 guys all came to an agreement to off him in the 5 minutes between Jon ending his speech and then getting Caesared without that having been a topic of discussion beforehand.

[Ashara Payne]

I'm keeping quiet as I don't trust myself not to spoil things. Shimpy, do you think there's any chance you might re read the entire thread (i.e. including spoilers) once you're done? It could prolong it till Season 6!

Edited December 23, 2015 by Ashara Payne

[Terra Nova]

Muahahahahah, not for Shimpy

I'm reading few chapters ahead and after Dany there's already Reek I and Bran II: Rise of the Bloodraven! Weeeeeeee! *giggles* *laughs maniacally*

Edited December 23, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, do you think there's any chance you might re read the entire thread (i.e. including spoilers) once you're done?

 

I figured I would, but if you all would rather I didn't, then I won't :-)  Progress on reading will be slow for a couple of days as it's the final rush to actually get all gifts wrapped, house cleaned and last minute gifts purchased.  Doesn't help that there's a veritable monsoon blowing through town and I have to keep going out and standing around like the low meteorologist on the news desk totem poll, necessitating frequent trips out into windy gales (where presumably my words of "come on, come on, please pee already" meet their kin). 

 

I ate my over-explanation flakes this morning.  

 

Anyway, I should be able to get through a couple of chapters this afternoon.  

Edited December 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

What the fuck?  Bloodraven is King Root Dude?? 

 

Yeah, I'm still in the middle of a chapter, but fucking Bloodraven is hanging out in the Weirdwood Underground castle.  He's the Three Eyed Crow??!? 

[Delta1212]

Hahahaha

[WindyNights]

What the fuck?  Bloodraven is King Root Dude?? 

 

Yeah, I'm still in the middle of a chapter, but fucking Bloodraven is hanging out in the Weirdwood Underground castle.  He's the Three Eyed Crow??!? 

SURPRISE! lol

[bobbybuilderton]

One of those reveals that meant nothing to me due to not reading the side stories

[ImpinAintEasy]

Bloodraven! Yes, he is the Three Eyed Crow. This is one of the major reasons I recommended reading the D&E tales before AFFC/ADWD. We were waiting for you to get to that reveal. They actually used the 'Thousand Eyes And One' line in the show, but the character in the show looked nothing like Bloodraven, as he wasn't an albino and he wasn't missing an eye. I hope they update his look when he re-appears on the show, as they certainly upgraded the actor portraying him. 

[Chris24601]

And now you see why people wanted you to read the novellas Shimpy.

[stillshimpy]

Between that and "This grows tedious," said the lord in the mail byrnie. "Kill him and be done with it." about Reek I had the weird feeling that the text was waving at me again. 

 

So Bloodraven aka the guy I always referred to as King Root Dude, having actual roots growing out of his eye socket was another case of "Oh...hi.  Well, at least the nickname was apropos...?"  

 

I was dutifully taking notes about what Qaithe said (TileFace) because it kind of turns out that she's more than a walk-on character in Dany's story, she's sort of a regular "Hi!  I'm astrally projecting! Cool huh? Well, hold onto that 'this is nifty' because apparently beaming directly into your night has used up all my powers of clarity and I will proceed to be cryptic.  Here we go!"  

 

Soon comes the pale mare, after the others.  Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon.  Trust none of them.  Remember the Undying.  Beware ...basically Reznak (perfumed seneshcal).  

 

Trying to figure out what that meant when the first child of the Forest showed up talking about having walked among men for 200 years and I was trying to figure out "So...have I seen her before then?"  when...."Hi!  Get a lot of my distinctive birthmark and one eye....guess you never made the "suspiciously colored like a Weirwood connection before, huh?"  

 

So Bloodraven is King Root Dude and Bloodraven is some very close relative of a Weirwood tree, if not the actual soul and ruler of the Weirwoods...the Weirwoods that inspire everyone's dreams if they do things like pillow their heads on it.  The same Weirwoods that Stannis had Wildlings burning to symbolize their rejection of the old gods.  Swift of you, Stannis.  Pity you never Rip Van Winkled up a dream or two of your own.  

 

Okay, back to Dany's stuff: Soon comes the pale mare after the others.   Oh boy.  Hmmm.  Who's that?  Is it Melisandre?  That doesn't quite fit.  The Others is easy enough.  I've been sitting over here going through synonyms for a female horse.  Nag, filly...I'm going to have to keep mulling that over, because no one leaps easily to mind for a Pale Mare.  

 

Finally a sort of easy one:  Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin ...so Kraken is going to be Euron, I take it.  Dark flame should fit Stannis/Melisandre R'hollor's Homies.  Lion (Lannister) ...Griffin ....motherfucker, I knew I should have been paying more attention to the sigils.  Someone just had a crest that had a griffin on it and I'll be damned if I can remember. 

 

Unless that's Griff, which would make sense.  Lion and Griffin.  Tyrion and Griff.  

 

The Sun's Son and the Mummer's Dragon.  Okay, the Sun's Son is Quentyn.  The Mummer's Dragon.  The only thing I can think of there is actually Vary's as a Targ supporter.  

 

Oh and I've met Reek.  I'm going to be honest, it's just so excessively horrible.  It's very Gothic and lurid and really seems to be work that nipped in from another genre.  It must have been so freaky for anyone wandering into that and finding out "HOLY SHIT, it's Theon!!"  but I came into this knowing Reek is Theon and having watched excessively horrible torture porn for a full season, so ...mostly I just want that poor pathetic thing to die so he can be out of his misery and I don't have to read about him. 

 

 

 

And now you see why people wanted you to read the novellas Shimpy.

 

Indeed :-)  That was pretty funny.  So it was for more than spotting Dunk's crest on the shield Brienne had painted.  

 

ETA:  So...this might not mean this much to you guys, but it was something we were always mulling over in the Unsullied threads.  That Luwin had told Bran there was no magic and that magic appeared to be reawakening.  What caused it.  What came first, was it like Winter coming, only on a much longer cycle?  

 

Bloodraven being in residence in the Underground Great Hall suggests that it either never went to sleep in the first place, or it's been waking up for quite a while. 

 

ETA2: I honestly never noticed the Thousand Eyes and One line in the show, but I never went back to listen to his dialogue.  He was never that big a focus for me, because he was clealry just the next part of Bran's journey and the focus of that scene seemed to be the "you will fly" of it all.  

 

ETA3: Oh hell, I've just read Qaithe's stuff again and realized she's telling Dany not to trust any of them?  

 

I don't know why I've been assuming Tile Face was not inherently bad or fucking with Dany, but I had been.  I'm not sure of that at all now. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

I didn't feel any particular annoyance at having to read reeks disgusting existence because I am a heartless demon who's only concern when reading is being entertained. So it was stlll very easy to read for me because I was interested in seeing what would happen next.

 

My indifference to reading horrible thibgs described is why i can easily have people like littlefinger in my top 3 favorites. Shitty things happenig to fictional peple never viscerally affects me.

 

I'm pretty much the worst. That said, You can probably guess what happens with Theon probablt won't match the show, having already read what sansa is up to.

[WSmith84]

That's the chapter where Dany orders the wineseller's daughters to be tortured in front of their father, correct? This is where I really started to go off of Dany as a character. A protagonist that tortures would always be a difficult sell (for me at least) but the torture there just seems so downright cruel, not to mention pointless. Then there's the fact that Dany doesn't sit in on the torture, so that she can at least call it off if it appears useless and listen to any confessions and judge whether or not they are true. There's something really cowardly in that that rubs me up the wrong way.

 

On Griffins: the House with a Griffin for a sigil is House Connington. You met Ronnet Connington in Feast, maybe even before that, I'm not sure. He was one of Brienne's suitors when she was younger and he was cruel to her. He was also in the melee that Brienne won; Brienne beat the crap out of him. He was at Harrenhal with Jaime in Feast and he insulted Brienne, calling her a freak or somesuch. Jaime hit him with his golden hand. I think he's the only member of that House that you've met.

[WindyNights]

That's the chapter where Dany orders the wineseller's daughters to be tortured in front of their father, correct? This is where I really started to go off of Dany as a character. A protagonist that tortures would always be a difficult sell (for me at least) but the torture there just seems so downright cruel, not to mention pointless. Then there's the fact that Dany doesn't sit in on the torture, so that she can at least call it off if it appears useless and listen to any confessions and judge whether or not they are true. There's something really cowardly in that that rubs me up the wrong way.

 

Yeah having a guy's innocent daughters tortured in front of him just so she could get some info and because she was pissed is probably one of her biggest dick moves along with ordering the Unsullied massacring any male over the of 12 wearing a tokar at Astapor. 

 

Keep in mind that a tokar doesn't signify a slave master but a free man.

 

Also actual torture rarely gets reliable information out of anyone.

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

I only read the Reek chapters once. That was enough for me.

[stillshimpy]

That's the chapter where Dany orders the wineseller's daughters to be tortured in front of their father, correct?

 

It is and just to contrast that with a big load of WTF?  It's also the episode in which Dany is struggling with feelings of guilt because of the child Drogon killed.  Frankly, the entire chapter is Dany kind of floundering around quite a bit.  First Missandei's brother dies, and she tells a very sweet story about him and how she loved him.  So Dany doesn't order the wineseller's daughter tortured, she orders the wineseller to be questioned and at first basically says "go easy on him, don't get too rough" when asked about how rough the questioning should be.  

 

As she gets angrier it becomes "Yeah, you know, fuck that: torture him.  He may not know anything, but I have to find these bastard Sons of the Harpy because they are killing my loyal crew here and they will be avenged.  So beat the crap out of him and see what he says."  Then the guy being charged with that suggests "No, torture his daughter in front of him and you'll find out what he knows with a quickness."  

 

Dany agrees to that, but it's a chapter where she wonders if she's going mad because of Qaithe and her "No, really, be paranoid.  And apparently never question why you're trusting me, because you're distracted by my nifty parlor tricks ..." and then she basically plays to Dany's fears a lot with the "don't trust anybody" which isolates her even more.  

 

Also, Dany is taking a very long time indeed to question the veracity of Viserys version of events.  Despite, you know, being pretty much fine with him being killed because he was a crazy, cruel, treacherous bastard...she still parrots the Usurpers Dogs stuff.  She's also thinking dreamily of Daario's blue trident beard...which...righty o!   

 

She's sort of all over the map in that chapter.  Queen of Compassion as she comforts Missandei.  Budding Ruler as she listens to Barristan's tales of his escape from King's Landing.  Still struggling with opening up the fighting pits and then all the stuff with "no, no...it's okay...don't torture him....oh fuck that, torture him" and not being too troubled by the whole "Uh, sincerely, what if they weren't in on the plan and were just given wine to serve by some third party?"  stuff, which just means that the wineseller will make up stuff to save his daughter. 

 

if he even cares about his daughter, which is somewhat up in the air.  

 

Yeah, the problem with Reek for me isn't just the dwelling on torture, which is just gross and not interesting to me on any level...it's not that I'm such a tender flower...it's just shock value shit, and I think it's a weak writing tool.  

 

 

 

I only read the Reek chapters once. That was enough for me.

 

Plus, it always just requires so much suspension of disbelief for me.  Oh sure, someone would survive all that shit...without being fed...and being kept in filth because sepsis was too scared of Ramsay to come and snack Theon's life away.  Same deal with the whole "Lady Hornwood ate her own fingers!" idiocy.  Yeah, yeah.  I'm not scared, or distressed, it's just so implausible and it's like maudlin movies that have lingering deathbed scenes. 

 

It's like Beaches demanding that you cry, dammit, cry!! Aren't you moved?  Isn't this SAD?  Not really, it's just tawdry and lurid manipulation only instead of sentimentality, he's using horror.  It's a weak story telling tool.  This is Spinal Tap! It goes to eleven!!! I have to admit, I was just wildly unimpressed and ended up laughing at the long, bone-sucking detail of Theon munching on his warm rat.   It was just so....overwrought. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

I'll just say that people loved the Reek chapters and many think it's some of Martin's best written stuff.

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

Not everyone.

Also, Dany is taking a very long time indeed to question the veracity of Viserys version of events. Despite, you know, being pretty much fine with him being killed because he was a crazy, cruel, treacherous bastard...she still parrots the Usurpers Dogs stuff

It drives me nuts that no one has told Dany the story about how the war began, how her father's and brother's actions tore the seven kingdoms apart. Edited December 24, 2015 by Haleth

[WSmith84]

Also actual torture rarely gets reliable information out of anyone.

 

Yeah. Especially when the information desired is not really verifiable. It's not like the Sons of the Harpy have a uniform or anything.

 

Season 5

Speaking of, I found it a strange adaption choice in the show to have all the Sons of the Harpy wear those masks, because that would surely make them really easy to track down? Nice visual I guess, but... Just find the guy who makes the creepy masks and make him tell you who his customers are. And it kind of made that whole 'give this man a trial' thing odd, because, well, he had a terrorist uniform in his house and was basically like 'yeah, f@%& the Queen!' What more did they need to condemn the guy?

[stillshimpy]

Well and I'm not saying anyone else should have the same opinion as I do on that, but thus far, I'm really unimpressed with it...but you have to remember, I also knew it was coming, so there's no 'Whoa! Holy crow, what a great twist! Did NOT see that one coming!!" for me.  Instead, I had to sit through a really long, lingering, idiotic "Now we'll make sausage jokes about Ramsay potentially eating Theon's penis.  Hardy har!"   

 

So part of my, "Oh for suck's sake, enough" is that....I was already at the "Oh for Fuck's sake, enough."  more than two years ago.  

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

I said many not everyone, Haleth. There's a difference.

[stillshimpy]

Well and I was just telling Mya this, you know I'm aware that it's considered to be some of Martin's best work....but that chapter isn't representative of that for  a couple of understandable reasons.  Whereas I've already reached the "This is tedious" point with that story long, long ago....readers hadn't.  I trust that part of the reason it's just over-written to an almost comic degree is that...it's partially Martin's response to fandom claiming that no one every gets punished for bad deeds, I"m sure.

 

So I'm guessing that's why Martin turned it up to "I CAN PROJECT TO THE BACK ROWS!" In terms of lack of craft there. 

 

But that also has to do with Theon being gone for two books and there being NO hint of what has been happening to him, so he didn't just throw a reader into the deep end, Martin pitched everyone into a well.  I'm assuming there will now be room for less "IN YOUR FACE" shock value stuff.  He is actually trying to gut punch the readers and shock them, having actually put in the time and patience to build that "OH HOLY SHIT" because how long was Theon gone from a page?  Like fifteen years, right?   So I'll grant him the "okay, I'll give you that over performance there, because you really did sit on this and are now dropping the hammer DOWN, motherfucker!"  

 

It just sort of falls on bored ears over here because...it's been tedious for kind of damn long time for me. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Most people love Reek's stuff in Winterfell. I find the first two chapters more difficult to get through, but his Winterfell stuff is great. That material is probably the biggest book-to-screen letdown, worse even than Dorne.

[WindyNights]

Most people love Reek's stuff in Winterfell. I find the first two chapters more difficult to get through, but his Winterfell stuff is great. That material is probably the biggest book-to-screen letdown, worse even than Dorne.

Quoted for truth. 

 

In fact, the whole Northern storyline was the best part of ADWD and the show completely gutted it.

 

@shimpy Are you going to read "The Winds of Winter" chapters that have been released after ADWD?

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[Avaleigh]

Most people love Reek's stuff in Winterfell. I find the first two chapters more difficult to get through, but his Winterfell stuff is great. That material is probably the biggest book-to-screen letdown, worse even than Dorne.

I hated reading Reek's chapters.

 

Not for Shimpy.

 

I loved Theon's chapters though. His conversation with Lady Dustin was one of my top five favorite moments in ADWD. Possibly my favorite Theon chapter period. Also, I don't remember where exactly it is that Theon looks at Roose and wonders how he could have been mad enough to ever joke about him to his face or something like that and how he thinks that as awful as Ramsay is that Roose is the real danger between the two of them. There's a lot of good stuff coming up with Theon.

[stillshimpy]

Well and again, I was just telling Mya on Facebook that I'm sure that chapter would have been amazing if you had no idea it was coming.  Turning stuff up to an implausible level works when you've just genuinely BOING'd someone's emotional response system with that big of a "Holy Shit!" because Martin actually gives only tiny hints in a previous book that Theon might not be dead and it has more to do with "Well, who knows what happened to him" said in a completely dismissive "crows probably at that fucker" type of way.  

 

Also, this just in: I told you guys I wouldn't change my mind on Coldhands being Benjen unless I had more information.  Bloodraven is more information.  Dude was in the Night's Watch and clearly can warg/skinchange.  He had the dead bodies of men of the Night's Watch outside his root palace.  

 

Coldhands is clearly a warged Wight, because no blue spark....but it was more likely Bloodraven warging one of the things outside his door. But whatever was warging that dead guy had also been a brother of the Night's watch, because of the way he called out to Sam.  

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

Well given that Theon had disappeared for two books, I'm fairly certain the absurd amount of physical damage is more to illustrate the horror of his situation. It's not really a "shock value" writing tactic, since it has reason for being in the story and is trying to make a thematic connection between characters. It has purpose in the story, and the purpose goes beyond surprising or unsettling you, so...

 

It's characterizing aspects of the story. Also the somewhat over the top aspect of it just makes it kind of morbidly entertaining in a way. Not in like a sadistic kind of way, but more like watching a play kind of way. 90 percent sure that this part is just me being weird though.

 

Oh and there is nothing to indicate that Martin wrote the setting with the boltons and reek the way he did in response to people saying that nobody ever gets punished for bad deeds. Largely because I'm not sure anyone had ever brought that up to him prior to the show deciding to take bla bla bla happy ending paying attention bla bla and run with it

Edited December 24, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[stillshimpy]

Pretty sure that Martin would have been aware that he was considered someone inverting tropes prior to the series, which is part of that. 

[bobbybuilderton]

Not to start unleashing my rage on the show again, but can I just say that the way that it has impacted your reaction to this is part of why I hate the show being closely associated to the books? It just completely sours the experience of reading them, imo. Their story being conflated with asoiaf...it disappoints me

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, there have been a couple of things that the series definitely did no favors to.  For instance, you know, I'm pretty aware of how much I've been loving all the stuff that wasn't in the series.  Right on down the line.  It makes me wonder if maybe I wouldn't have just wholesale loved it if I'd experienced the books first, instead of having Post Traumatic Show Disorder. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Not to start unleashing my rage on the show again, but can I just say that the way that it has impacted your reaction to this is part of why I hate the show being closely associated to the books? It just completely sours the experience of reading them, imo. Their story being conflated with asoiaf...it disappoints me

 

Quoted for truth yet again.

 

 

A fun list of bad guys getting their comeuppance:

 

Tywin gets killed on the shitter by his dwarf son and later gets a humiliating funeral.

 

Gregor Clegane suffers the most agonizing torture possible at the hands of the brother of one of his victims and then gets vivisected while alive.

 

Amory Lorch gets fed to a bear who Arya notes reminds her of Yoren who Amory Lorch had killed.

 

Arya stabs the Tickler repeatedly to death while screaming his favorite phrases at his face.

 

Biter gets stabbed through his mouth by Gendry.

 

Rorge, Timeon, Pyg and Shagwell get slain by one of the women (Brienne) they tried/threatened to rape.

 

Janos Slynt gets beheaded by the son of the guy he betrayed and helped get beheaded.

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[Avaleigh]

Thank you for that list, Windy Nights. I've always disagreed that this is a world where the bad guys always get away with everything and never have to pay. 

[stillshimpy]

And we've already been through that list multiple times.  What happens to the honorable people is so much worse.  

 

Also, for fucking real, boo-boo-ba-hoo on the way Tywin died.   "I was stressed! For at least ninety seconds! and then expired within twenty."   Catelyn Stark was brought back to life after tearing her own face off in horror and became a voiceless thing wandering the woods, with half decayed brain and animated by vengeance.  Tywin died taking a poo.  Boo hoo. 

 

What the fuck ever.  As for his caring about his legacy and now painful that would be for him to contemplate.  Again, that last a minute tops.  Then he was dead and didn't care. 

 

This one is new:  

 

 

 

Biter gets stabbed through his mouth by Gendry.

 

Which he didn't even see coming because he was EATING BRIENNE'S FACE.  

 

The scale, she is unbalanced. 

 

 

 

Gregor Clegane suffers the most agonizing torture possible at the hands of the brother of one of his victims and then gets vivisected while alive.

 

That one I'll almost entirely give you.  He's just kind of not dead.  He's Mountainstein. But he did suffer a lot. Then I remember the story of the innkeepers daughter and you know....bastard had that and more coming. 
 

Also

 

Rorge, Timeon, Pyg and Shagwell get slain by one of the women (Brienne) they tried/threatened to rape.

 

You mean the half eaten, pummeled, shattered woman we last saw being hanged by the Vengeance Demon formerly known as Catelyn?   Because, once again, she's had to walk through the fiery pits of hell in this story, pretty much constantly and repeatedly. They were unrelenting evil and horrible...and then died.  

 

Here's the thing: bad things happen to small bit players and Rorge and Biter kept getting away from all sorts of situations to go and wreak more sadistic havoc...and part of the reason they do?  Arya saved them from burning alive.  

 

It's not that nothing bad ever happens to bad people in this story, it's that it's pretty unbalanced as to scale and scope.   

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

To be fair, Cat, or rather Lady Stoneheart, at least gets to know that Arya is actually alive and that Sansa got out of her marriage with Tyrion and escaped.

But on the whole I really agree that Tywin got let off too easily. I almost kinda wish he had survived to see his house fall.

[Avaleigh]

Lady Stoneheart is still around to get revenge on her enemies. Tywin surely wishes that he could do the same. Lots of good characters are around to fight another day while the bad guys are steadily going down as the series progresses. 

 

Even taking the Tywin death out of the equation there isn't one good guy who's had a death as grisly as that of Vargo Hoat or the Mountain. 

[Alayne Stone]

Theon was pretty reprehensible and the stuff that happens makes you really question if it was still justified.

 

I'm very much of the persuasion that Reek in Winterfell is some of George's best writing. The chapters before that, especially that first one, was really hard for me to get through because we are essentially playing catch up with him.

 

But now you see that all the torture stuff with Theon happened completely off screen. That's probably why I don't see it as being simply done for shock value. It's certainly shocking, but it's not as if there is no purpose to it.

 

As for Quaithe, I don't know ... I've never really viewed her as being a "bad" person. We simply don't know enough about her to decide one way or another. I can see your point about her warnings isolating Dany but ... well, they will all begin to make a little more sense as you continue to read Dance. Some of it will reveal itself, some of it remains a subject for speculation. It's one of those things you should keep in mind when you finish reading all the published material and we start discussing everything openly. :)

 

And YES. Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow! It wasn't as big a reveal for me when I first read it either having not read the three novellas at the time but now ... yeah. Pretty big deal. So glad we can finally talk about it openly. :D

[stillshimpy]

Lady Stoneheart is still around to get revenge on her enemies.

 

But here's something that really bothers me about Lady Stoneheart:  Catelyn Stark would be fucking appalled by her.  Just horrified beyond the telling of it.  Even the "Wandering around after death, with my face hanging off in ribbons" of it all.  I think she'd consider her an abomination.  

 

I think that's half the point of the character.  She's not kicking righteous ass in those woods.  

 

Catelyn was a difficult character, but she did a couple of daft things and oh my god, did everyone ever pay for it, including her.  Just for being stubborn and bullheaded, she thought she got ....pretty much all...of her children killed.  She had to live through her husband's death, her...oh my god, I'm just going to stop because she lives through the death of people who aren't dead.  

 

She's emotionally punished on every single known level.  She's also treated like crap for just desperately trying to save her daughter's life and gods help her, she foolishly still takes people she doesn't even trust at their word, if the swear oaths to her.  

 

She believed in order and law and all things decent.  Even if she snapped like a wet carrot because of extreme trauma, the person she was in the seconds before they killed Robb dead in front of her would have hated Stoneheart and wanted her put down like a mad dog as an act of mercy.  

 

Stoneheart is just more punishment for Catelyn. 

[WindyNights]

I dunno if that's completely true. There is development of Catelyn Stark towards the Lady Stoneheart character even while alive.

 

She admits that some part of her wants to hug the grisly trophy of Theon's pinky finger skin when Roose gives her the message and the trophy Ramsay sent them and other stuff she thinks.

 

But then I always saw Lady Stoneheart as a way to bring peace back to Catelyn before she dies again as abominable as she is.

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights