S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[janjan]

Jon is just mostly dead. We need Miracle Max, STAT.

 

Agree that Jorah and Daario are seriously in need of a game plan. As was Dany when she wandered away from Drogon. What was she gonna do, catch dinner? Walk home?  Call in an air strike?

 

O Mighty Stumbler, First of Your Name, King of the Annals, are you back now? Well, now the season is over, but are you on for next season? I'm not sure I am. I might check in briefly to see if Jon gets revived. If not, there's not much left that I care about. And if the mutineers killed Ghost -- a sensible precaution, for sure -- then I resign. My oath goes the way of Sam's -- pfft. Farewell and damn you, Show.

[Coxfires]

I really am mixed bag about this episode. In a way I could despise it, but since everything ended up on a cliffangher I might not.

I'd be super disappointed if Sansa's story ended up there, so I kinda hope she landed on a lot of snow, but at the same time it'd take me a huge suspension of disbelief to have her be unscathed by this fall.

Brienne finally did something I guess, too bad she missed Sans's signal. I wouldn't have minded Stannis suffering a little longer by realizing he burned his daughter for nothing while Brienne saved Sansa, but oh well.

Nice moment between Jaimie and Myrcella so of course she had to die, which was a stupid move from Ellaria, Tristane will pay for this surely

Arya's story could lead somewhere, but it stalled too much this season.

Not that interested in Denaerys' enamored servants chase after her, but I'm glad Varys is back with Tyrion.

as much as Lena Headey killed it, I can't feel bad for Cersei, because she is the one who had a kid thrown from a tower, who humiliated her dwarf brother at the first occasion, who subjected Loras to the same fate as hers to get back at Margery, who participated to Sansa's horrendous time after Ned's death, and so much more. So yes, it was humiliating, but she had it coming, and this isn't worse than innocent Shireen being burnt for her father's ambition. For all she has done, Cerrsei gets out of it well in the end.

Finally, Jon's death at the exact time of Mel arrival is interesting, even though the betrayal was totally unsurprising given all the clues left since the beginning of the season.

All in all, this for me wasn't a good season, well far less engaging than the previous ones , but it might have set up the pieces well for next year's.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Coxfires

[Llywela]

I find myself wondering about the usual fate and life expectancy of Lords Commander of the Night's Watch just at the moment, since this is now two in a row have been attacked and killed by their own men and that...well, it occurs to me that, in times of impending zombie apocalypse, probably not the best idea to have your first line of defence manned almost exclusively by violent criminal types incapable of seeing beyond their current grudge!

Edited June 16, 2015 by Llywela

[Shadowlass]

Heh, Stumbler, about Jon.  As for Ghost...for now, I'm just going to decide that he was out for the night, the plotters knew and left it at that, planning to kill him when he returns.  But he won't.  Maybe he'll fend for himself on the outside, and wait for Alliser Thorne to head off to Olde Towne some night.  

 

They'd better not kill Ghost--Lady and Grey Wind's murders made me cry like a baby.

 

I want Ghost and Nymeria to meet up and roam Westeros together until they meet up with Arya and form a lethal justice-dealing pack. Dany can have her dragons; Arya definitely needs a whole pack of direwolves.

[Mackey]

It never hit me for a second that Sansa and Theon were trying to kill themselves. Theon seemed to be quickly and with thought picking the best escape jump place.

I assume that we will see them wandering around next season.

As far as John Snow, something about the setup makes me think we will see him wandering around again in some form or other. Maybe, his friend's studies will have a role here. Maybe the hideous red lady will have a role. Maybe he will be a kinder, gentler White Walker.

[ChocButterfly]

Shadowlass, it's not dumb, but...where the fuck ARE the Wildlings in all of this? And where is Red Beard dude? I thought he and Jon were compatriots now. And WHY didn't Jon call an all-Nights Watch meeting and have him and some of the Wildlings tell what they saw at Hardhome? I mean come the fuck on people! WWs can raise the freakin dead so yeah, they have a huge army amassing. JesusHChrist on a cracker, how hard is it to debrief folks as soon as you come back from an encounter like that?!?

 

As for Olly, WHY didn't Jon call him up to his chambers and have a 1:1 heartfelt talk with the boy, reveal some of Jon' own vulnerability and personal history, and help Olly see why this alliance with the Wildlings is urgent and necessary and is in no way denigrating the memory of Mr. & Mrs. Olly?  Shit man, these people all need some good old fashioned interpersonal communication training! They need a Nights Watch Encounter, like Marriage Encounter for the NW! Arghhhh.

 

One thing I'm still rolling my eyes and having a WTF moment over is how easily Jorah and Darios can just saddle up and saunter right on outta Mereen like it aint nothin' and they're off for a picnic or something. I mean, they just got the ambush of a lifetime, barely survived and somehow the Unsullied Army are suddenly able to hold back the Harpies to the extent that two of Dany's closest protectors can just ride on outta dodge?  And where the hell are they going?! I mean, damn, did you see that expanse that lay outside of Mereen? What are those two numnuts gonna do, just ride in whatever direction the wind blows (I mean that literally) and hope they bump into Dany? Stop at taverns along the way and inquire of the locals, "excuse me my good man, have you perchance seen a woman riding atop a black dragon recently and if so, which direction were they headed?"  It's a stupid, nonsensical plan.

 

WORD to your entire post, Ginger! I mentioned this last week, The first thing Jon should have done was discuss the WW attack as soon as he got there. Communicate, people!!

Plus you made me laugh so much!! Specially the bolded parts. See? This is why we need to preserve our Habitat guys, Ginger always says what I'm thinking, but a lot more funnier. Pallas also usually posts things that were on my mind, but so more beautifully and poetic. Shimpy makes me think about things I hadn't even thought about the show. KFH (WhiteStumbler) gets all the details and clarifies stuff I didn't get from the show. I could go on about all of you, but I'm not that good at writing. Thing is, all of you for sure come up with these crazy smart theories and funny occurrences. Take this, for example:

 

Shimpy:

where the hell was Tommen the Useless?  First of his Name and Missing His Spine?

Direwolf:

Mountainstein lives!! He's going to keep his silence until all Cersei's enemies are dead? That sounds like an excuse to me Qyburn. You were behind schedule and didn't put vocal chords as a priority, right?

 

Hahaha!!!

[Llywela]

I don't have much to say about this episode that you guys haven't already said, but I guess it at least answered my question about where Arya's story was headed and what she'd learned with the Faceless Men. I guess she learned how to borrow faces and use them to transform her entire being - because she wasn't just wearing a different face, she had different hair and everything, that changed back when she took the face off. When did she learn how to do that? Off-screen, I guess. It was good though to see Maisie Smith actually being called on to emote - she's spent so long being little other than stone-cold stoic, she could be forgiven for forgetting how to do anything else!

[Pallas]

Here's something that bothers me more about the Pfffts! Season than the Pfffts! Season did as it unfolded.  Or unraveled.  

 

We wondered why Stannis delayed in moving on Winterfell, especially as he was justifiably concerned about launching his assault before the snows grew too deep.  We wondered why Brienne stayed put at the quaint little B&B, waiting for a signal that might prove impossible for a prisoner to arrange, could gutter out at any moment, or could easily be missed in any kind of inclement weather -- snow, for instance.  

 

Now we know.  King Stannis -- The Man Who'd Waited Long Enough! -- had to bivouac and wait some more at Castle Black, so he could leave late enough to get trapped by snow.  Brienne had to hang around outside Winterfell, standing on ceremony, so that she could (1) not rescue Sansa and (2) still be there to kill Stannis when he attacked.  

 

What pisses me off most about this contrivance is not only how naked and cumbersome it seems now-- like Mountainstein, undraped -- but how A Show hopped right over a chance to create a real dilemma for Brienne.  Not just the pathetic, "Oopsies!" when she missed Sansa's signal, but a tragic dilemma entirely in keeping with the theme of the season: justice, mercy and revenge.    

 

Brienne had sworn two vows, to Renly and to Catelyn.  She was about to be given the epic chance to act on either, both or none. With her magic key, Sansa is taking advantage of the distraction inside Winterfell to escape and light the candle. And now? All that is required to give Brienne a hero's choice between two internal imperatives, is to have her see Sansa's signal.  Stannis is advancing on foot, in mud:  Brienne has plenty of time to be torn by her decision and then, nonetheless, put it into action, shouldering the consequences.  Instead, she and we were spared that searching of her soul.  Her decision between now, and then: between an act of mercy or an act of justice.  Instead of a hero's dilemma, what we got was just another girlish mix-up.

[gingerella]

I know Choc, right? We are a motley crew here at the Spitball Wall but we each bring our own gifts to this ongoing conversation...let it continue until the end! Grog for all!

Lywela, we need more voices here so think of this place as the scene from Jon's being voted into Lord Commander, everyone should voice their opinions regardless of whether another has already done so because how each one of us contributes to the conversation makes this such a great place. Well, that and our amazing White Cloaks watching over us!

Anyway, about Arya...I am so torn about where she is in all of this right now. Arya has shown that she is a good fighter, fearless, and can get the job done when the chips are down, just ask pedo bear Meryn Trent...However, if Arya has released all her rage in her recent killing, then perhaps there is hope for her to in a sense rest her mind for a bit with this current blindness. Being unable to see would, in essence, allow her to finally perhaps relax and regroup and reevaluate her life...? Or am I being too Pollyanna?!? Lest we forget, there must be a reason going forward that Arya hid Needle, instead of throwing it into the sea, right? That can only point to Arya reclaiming Needle and venturing out into the world again, as Arya Stark though. I dont think she could steal a face forever, and I dont see Arya giving up the essence of herself to become Nobody. A Girl is Arya Stark, after all, hardly a nobody!

ETA:

Pallas, cross posting! I love what you just wrote and it is soooo true! A Show had such an amazing moment to deliver and it just crapped on us and gave us a romcom instead. We could have been given Shakespeare and instead we got a cold, congealed serving of A Weekend at Bernies! It pisses me off to think how amazing that scene could have been, argh!!!!!!

And speaking of pfffts...Why the fuck would Sansa open her door and drop a potential killing weapon???

Edited June 16, 2015 by gingerella

[ChocButterfly]

During that final shot of Jon's face, I couldn't help but notice how beautiful he looked. His dark hair, and fair skin, and handsome face. Don't laugh, but Snow White came to mind, and not just because they both have "Snow" in their names. While I was enjoying that lovely thought, I immediately found myself fearing his eyes would suddenly pop open, revealing an icy blue color. Shiver. Then the next thought I had is that he would then be a Snow Wight.  

Ha! That's hilarious!! But even though the name suits him so much, that's not how I want him back.

[DirewolfPup]

Pallas. That was pretty brilliant. I've had a hard time expressing my frustration with this season. That whole sequence just hit the nail right on the head. Why is Stannis waiting for Winter to Come before moving out of Castle Black. Why doesn't Brienne do her duty a little more logically. WHY WON'T A SHOW GIVE US ACTUAL CONFLICT.

 

Every decision that every character has made has been "of course." The only exception I could remember is Stannis burning Shireen, but most of us saw that coming and assumed it was coming a mile away.

[Pallas]

So true, Pup.  All the conflict we saw this season was external, and every character was Petyr Baelish: opaque.  It's as if the showrunners were most concerned with not tipping their hands, rather than actually playing the game.  As if they forgot or never knew that we're not watching for the shocks, not watching to outsmart the show.

 

As fledglings four years ago, we foresaw Ned's death halfway through the first season: all that did was make it more wrenching when it came. Wrenching is better than shocking.  Well before the wedding, we realized that Robb and Co. should have sent candlesticks and their regrets: our dread as the Stark armies approached the Twins, wolf banners flying, actual wolf loping ahead of the horses, was awful and awesome.  To be waiting, a little diverted, almost-but-not-really hoping, just before the horror showed its face...then to be undone by the inevitable.  Undone is better than outsmarted.  

 

And before the season began, we anticipated Tyrion's teaming up with Dany, and that made it more delightful when it (finally) did occur.  Their two-hander together was the only revealing and complex conversation I can recall, all season long: one in which both characters were developed before our eyes.

 

Yes, this season A Show was bound to have a Stannis Problem.  Stannis, god help us, was to Season 5 what Ned, Tyrion, Tywin and Tywin were to the first four: the force embedded in its greatest events. That could be a puzzler, with so insular a man -- but that's what writing's for.  Ned and Tywin were hardly more voluble.  So, set up some set-pieces with characters who can rub against him, and set off an illuminating spark.  

 

If Stannis needs to hang around Castle Black, well, what's Mance got to do but spar with him, and hold court on whether or not it's good to be King?  Can Jon have a word with Shireen: two children acknowledged by their fathers and rejected by his wife, now the Princess and the Lord Commander...and what's Shireen willing to tell Jon about what she thinks of Stannis, and what's Jon willing to tell Shireen about what he thinks of Melisandre?   Stannis and Selyse: maybe if they had a scene together -- maybe even setting out how they met Melisandre, or reflecting on how fate has overtaken them, showing us what they're willing to confide to each other -- we'd be willing to remember her name.  

 

Brienne and Pod: nothing, nothing but time on their hands and okay, we got their backstories and they both even survived!, but. Good Pod was fulfilled serving a rogue, while Good Brienne was left unfinished serving two (more of less) idols of hers: any thoughts on that?  Tyrion with Varys: after six weeks in a box, the most inquisitive man no longer in Westeros can't be bothered with having the Minister of Whispers all to himself, as a captive subject? Nothing Tyrion might like to know, or try his hand at asking?  Danaerys Housebound: what do you do with yourself when you aren't enthroned or voguing in your council chambers?  Prior to your chat with Tyrion, can we see a little more about how you transformed from one-note imperious to sophisticated and enlightened?  Cersei and Jaime: here today, Dorne tomorrow.  

 

I'm not suggesting that the recipe for dramatic conflict is, Mostly, you talk.  But this season's characters were all either soldiers with time on their hands (inexplicably), or, caged political animals.  Talk is how you separate the soldiers from their armor, and put the political animals through their paces.  Talk is better than torture.

[Llywela]

I just, for the first time in all the years I've been watching this show, walked into the kitchen in work to find people actually talking about it. It was a very unsullied conversation that basically ran thus:

"What about that guy who came back, like, ten times?"

"He's coming back. He's coming back. We have to find out who his mother is!"

 

So, yeah.

 

I agree with everything you just said about the wheel spinning this season, Pallas. It has felt a lot like most of the characters were just marking time before their plot twists, and not marking time in a particularly meaningful way, either. How long have Loras, Margaery and Cersei been in prison without their stories moving forward? What was going on in the rest of King's Landing? How long was Jaime sunning himself in Dorne before striking the agreement to return? I guess I'm confused about the timeline because time seemed to be passing, yet so little actually happened in most of the sub-plots that it seemed like half of them could have lasted less than a week all told. There must have been better ways of marking time. Take Dorne, for instance - this season was the first time we've been there, after hearing it talked about for years. Yet it wasn't developed at all, and most of the characters there were little more than ciphers. Oberyn's daughters? I still couldn't tell you all three of their names, never mind which is which. They all seem to share the same sparse character bio: 'daughter of Oberyn, badass fighter, wants to avenge her father's death'. That's pretty much all we know about them, after a whole season - compare that with how well we were allowed to know Oberyn last season, with how swiftly the various Stark children were established, etc. Oberyn told Cersei that he last saw Myrcella playing in the water gardens with his daughters and having fun, implying that they were friends - we saw nothing of that friendship this season, yet it could have provided excellent character material to both flesh out those interchangeable Sand Snakes (vengeance versus friendship, internal conflict always a good thing) and to help us get to know Myrcella, so that we'd actually care when she was poisoned. I dunno. The production values have been as high as ever, but looking back over the season as a whole, a lot of the writing just feels...lazy, I guess. Maybe they're running out of steam.

[ChocButterfly]

Excellent thoughts, Pallas and Llywela, I agree with both. Sometimes I hear people saying this season hasn't happened much, but it has actually happened a LOT. The problem is that too much have happened without enough character development or depth. It's like what you say Pallas, all that time with Stannis at the Wall, and we couldn't get anything interesting from him? Not that it surprises me, I have never found anything interesting about Stannis, but we could at least have heard the story of how he met Mel, instead of seeing that Red Bitch opening her legs for Jon.

 

Take Dorne, for instance - this season was the first time we've been there, after hearing it talked about for years. Yet it wasn't developed at all, and most of the characters there were little more than ciphers. Oberyn's daughters? I still couldn't tell you all three of their names, never mind which is which. They all seem to share the same sparse character bio: 'daughter of Oberyn, badass fighter, wants to avenge her father's death'. That's pretty much all we know about them, after a whole season - compare that with how well we were allowed to know Oberyn last season, with how swiftly the various Stark children were established, etc.

Exactly. I think we didn't have that much more time with Oberyn last season, yet we all knew him in a couple of episodes and we cared about him. These Sand Snakes have been on our screen for an entire season, and yeah, I still don't know their freaking names!! I cannot even tell apart the two older ones. Though, I may say I do like the little one, she's cute and I like her haircut and her eyes, plus she saved Bronn. But they never even said her name, did they?

 

I think it all boils down to what Ginger was saying, communication between the characters, we didn't seem to have much of that this season. And when we did, the conversations were mostly boring and nonproductive. Except for Tyrion/Dany, that was awesome

[gingerella]

Great coments one and all. Llywela, I loved your entire post. Ditto Choc and Pallas.

I think what it all boils down to is that somehow this show decided that shock and awe was more important than story telling, and honestly? Story telling is what drew us in S1. I STILL get chills when I see that S1E01 scene where the gate opens and we finally see beyond the Wall...That? Was perhaps one of the most stunning scenes I have ever seen in either TV of film. It haunts me. I was IN in that moment. I was hooked! But somehow, this season we got lots of shock and awe and very little story telling. I think to tell a story well, and particularly when one has so many characters, is that there must be compelling dialogue. Alas as you all have noted, we had little of that. I think mentioned this somewhere here already but this season felt like New 007 vs. Vintage 007. In vintage old school Bond flicks we got nuanced dialogue, snark, and little bits and bobs that made us know and care about a character. Like how James Bond likes his martinis shaken not stirred. Like how he smirks and makes snarky comments upon learning his paramours name is Pussy Galore. Now the Bond franchise is nothing more than one car chase connected by an explosion of something or other that leads to someone being killed. I still watch them but I dont love them anymore. A Show has dwindled this season to that level and last week's finale was the stinkiest of the season.

Much of what I didnt like felt like gratuitous HBO driven "hey, wwe're HBO and we show tits, ass, snatch and dick, woo hoo, arent we cool?" For example, Cersei' walk of shame was so wince worthy that we didnt need to see two guys show their ugly, flacid dicks just because its HBO and they can. It was distracting and unnecessary in the context of that scene. Likewise, the endless Ramsey torture and terror scenes we get it already. Maybe show us WHY Ramsey is so twisted and fucked up because if you do that, and A Viewer starts to care about a monster like Ramsey you have done something remarkable in your story telling, you have made people feel for a monster. That? Would have been an interesting twist, but no, we dont learn anything about this monster, only that he is one. All the back story Yu guys mentioned above about how Stannis met Mel and what Stannis and his wife really think of her, that would have been interesting.

A lot of this shit could have been avoided if the show was a full 20 epi season, and they could unpack the story and characters so much more than they can in only 10 hours a season. Given the size of the books (hey, I have seen them from afar), longer seasons could have helped paint a richer picture of a story, allowing it to unfold in amore natural manner.

[ChocButterfly]

I was thinking about Cersei's punishment. Why didn't Lancel or that Polliver guy have to do any "atonement" for their sins? Cersei's fate seemed to be way too harsh for her crime, she only confessed the adultery part and the other crimes are still on pending. Polliver's sins, on the other hand, are a whole lot bigger. Not only the gay part, but he was a male prostitute and worked in Littlefinger's brothels. Speaking of which, they got Margeary in jail for supposedly lying but LF has a whole chain of brothels, buys and sells hookers and the Sparrow don't even mess with him?? I get it, The High Sparrow only wants to screw people he doesn't like, specially if they are uber rich and have a high title.

[gingerella]

Well, Lancel did have that symbol carved into his forehead and that was pretty fucked up so maybe that is his atonement finale?

[Pallas]

The symbol of the Seven branded into Lancel's forehead did look to be his (permanent) chastisement for his sins.  Or perhaps a mark for other believers: 'Here we have a man who has sinned and been redeemed.'  Whether or not that would promote confession or discourage it...Since the High Sparrow apparently still needs Olyvar's testimony against both Loras and Margaery, he may either have arranged a spiritual clemency deal with Olyvar, or postponed his punishment until after the trial.  

 

For example, Cersei's walk of shame was so wince worthy that we didnt need to see two guys show their ugly, flacid dicks just because its HBO and they can. It was distracting and unnecessary in the context of that scene.

 

I did like how the walk of shame indicated that A Show is aware that people of any social strata can be pricks, that people of every social order are quick to slut-shame.  Especially en masse against a single target, and given a moral cover.  That class warfare is still warfare.  When at the same time, I think the story may be leading toward a new and democratic social order.  

 

Speaking of which, they got Margeary in jail for supposedly lying but LF has a whole chain of brothels, buys and sells hookers and the Sparrow don't even mess with him?? I get it, The High Sparrow only wants to screw people he doesn't like, specially if they are uber rich and have a high title.

 

And I wonder...we know that Littlefinger's MO is the secret alliance with unlikely allies.  And that he burns with resentment of the aristos.  Could he somehow be behind the High Sparrow's rise? 

[ChipBach]

I was thinking about Cersei's punishment. Why didn't Lancel or that Polliver guy have to do any "atonement" for their sins? Cersei's fate seemed to be way too harsh for her crime, she only confessed the adultery part and the other crimes are still on pending. Polliver's sins, on the other hand, are a whole lot bigger. Not only the gay part, but he was a male prostitute and worked in Littlefinger's brothels. Speaking of which, they got Margeary in jail for supposedly lying but LF has a whole chain of brothels, buys and sells hookers and the Sparrow don't even mess with him?? I get it, The High Sparrow only wants to screw people he doesn't like, specially if they are uber rich and have a high title.

My take was that Cersei not only committed adultery, but adultery against the king.  The sparrow refers to Tommen as "his grace" so I assume he respects the monarchy which makes Cersei's a sin against the entire kingdom, not just her husband.  Hence, the atonement in front of the entire populace.

[janjan]

And I wonder...we know that Littlefinger's MO is the secret alliance with unlikely allies.  And that he burns with resentment of the aristos.  Could he somehow be behind the High Sparrow's rise?

Wow, Pallas, how convoluted is that?! Wow! LF has outsmarted everybody so far -- even Varys, who succumbed to his one weakness, humanity (in saving Tyrion). It would be somehow fitting if the whole Sparrow plague is also LF's doing.

 

OTOH, when Lancel & Co. confronted LF upon his (LF's) return to KL, LF got them to back off by saying he was there at the Queen's behest. That indicates that the Sparrows were still beholden to or in fear of the monarchy. Or else -- now you've got me thinking, Pallas -- only the Big Bird is in on LF's plot. The plot is deep and full of twisties.

 

BTW, Lancel didn't seem unhappy while he was being branded (cut, actually), not like Cersei did during her walk. So I don't think it was atonement, but rather a sign of belief or belonging. It reminded me of Charles Manson who carved a swastika on his forehead.

[Pallas]

Great point, ChipBach.  But this is interesting: I thought we only saw Cersei with Lancel when Robert was dead and Jaime off to war, then captured.  Thus, fornication (and infidelity of another sort), but not adultery.  It hadn't occurred to me that Cersei had taken up with Lancel while Jaime was present with her in the Keep.  So why did she confess to adultery, then?  Or did the affair with Lancel begin when Jaime took off to Casterly Rock after ambushing Ned and his men, and so, just before Cersei induced Lancel to taint and serve Robert the poisoned wine?  

 

That would make sense -- that in Jaime's absence, she seduced Lancel in order to manipulate him into conspiring to commit treason and murder.  It's just not how I'd understood it.  (Or how Lancel did, of course.)

 

ETA, to janjan's post

 

The plot is deep and full of twisties.

 

Heh!  Yes, I imagined that Littlefinger and the High Sparrow might be in cahoots, completely unknown to the Fledglings.  Was the High Sparrow actually Littlefinger's creation?  I don't think so; I just think that Littlefinger got wind of the High Sparrow and then, like Olenna (one of his other secret allies), sniffed out that this was a charismatic and crafty man with a populist pitch who wanted a seat at the big table.  No humble, ancient altar for him!  I wonder where the Sparrow came from?

Edited June 19, 2015 by Pallas

[Llywela]

I don't think the mark on Lancel's head is anything to do with atonement or punishment. He was already in deep with the Sparrows when he showed up this season - I think his confession of sin and any atonement for it took place way back when he joined the sect, and as a devoted convert he'd have been treated differently than a public figure being tried for a transgression they've sought to hide. Maybe like a monk joining holy orders, his sins were considered washed clean by the very act of conversion, or whatever they'd call it. 'Cause he's a true believer, no doubt about that - his circumstances, going to the High Sparrow to become a member of the order, would have been very different from Cersei's, having her confession forced out of her the hard way. And he isn't a public figure to be made a public example of.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Llywela

[janjan]

Pallas: I wonder where the Sparrow came from?

A nest?

 

Of vipers, of course.

[Pallas]

I don't think the mark on Lancel's head is anything to do with atonement or punishment.

 

More like, a badge of honor?  That does make sense.  

 

Oh, poor Lancel, poor dupe. I know, a cossetted Lannister, the pretty cousin brought to court.  But what a court.  Robert's drunken disdain and abuse, Cersei's...unceasing Cerseing...bastard baby double-first-cousins-once-removed, one of whom was Joffrey...And then, after one cousin coerces him into killing his stupid King, another cousin blackmails him and the first one abandons him, and Blackwater.  No wonder he was ripe to be born again, maybe after being put forward by Littlefinger as a prime candidate for recruitment.  

 

King's Landing took a cub and made him into a cur.  Lancel needs to learn a trade, and rusticate.

[Llywela]

More like, a badge of honor?  That does make sense.

I think so, because...and I'm doubting myself now, but I'm sure we've seen other Sparrows sporting the same mark. Like a badge of honour for the most devout fanatics. And Lancel definitely had his done ages after he confessed and signed on for Sparrow duty, because we saw him having it done. So...sometime between being wounded (whenever that was, the seasons have blurred) and reappearing this last season, Lancel found religion and cast himself on the mercies of the High Sparrow, confessed all and joined the sect, which at the time was just a toothless offshoot of mainstream Sevenism (or whatever the hell the religion is actually called). Like...most folk in King's Landing are nominally religious, in the same way that many westerners today call themselves nominally Christian, or lapsed Catholic, or whatever, but the Sparrows are true believers. So Lancel joined this sect, a bit like someone who'd been a lapsed Catholic having a road to Damascus experience and becoming a monk. And the order he joined was pretty much obscure, which is another good reason for whatever atonement he performed for his sins to be lower key than Cersei's, until Cersei got it into her head that she could use them for her own ends and gave them power and weapons, whereupon they caught fire and...well, the rest is history.

 

That's my reading of it, anyway.

[gingerella]

Llywela, your take on Lancel makes sense, though I dont remember seeing anyone else of the Sparrow sect with that mark on their forehead and I remember wondering, "why just Lancel?", but then again, as the cousin of the Queen Dowager or whatever the hell Cersei now is, his entry into the Sparrows would be HUGE for their legitimacy, dont you think? So its a win win for the High Sparrow to get a real live Lannister as a devout follower, let alone a Lannister who confesses to schtupping his cousin, the QUEEN! That's like a High Sparrow wet dream in terms of PR! I keep comparing the Sparrows to the Spanish Inquision (Nooooooobody expects the Spanish Inquistion, are main weapons are...ah nevermind...). Anyway, imagine if the head of the Spanish Inquision had a cousin of the Queen of Spain wander in one day and confess to playing hide the balony pony with his cousin the Queen, but he feels awful about it now, knows it was morally heinous and an act against God and all that is holy, but he wants absolution and desires any pennance the head of Church deems appropriate? Imagine if you were that head of Church...,you would be wetting yourself right about then, wouldnt you? Like, this is the best thing that could have ever happend to your cause. So you tell him part of his pennance is to wear the mark of the cross on his forehead and he's like, " hells yeah! Is that all after I fucked my cousin?! Sure! Got knife?" Then you have a walking medieval billboard for what happens to sinners and also that they can be rehabiliated and forgiven for the worst of crimes. Its actually brilliant if you look at it from a marketing perspective - basically Lancel has carved the Sparrow's logo onto himself, he is a walking advertisement now. Brilliant High Sparrow! Twisted, but brilliant.

Edited June 20, 2015 by gingerella

[ChocButterfly]

But it wasn't only Lancel, all of them got branding on their foreheads. So it wasn't about his atonement, but only about having a cool badge to fully join the club. That's why I still think Cersei's punishment was unfair, even though I hate her and I didn't feel bad about for her for all the things she's done, but she didn't deserve it for those particular sins she confessed.

 

That's why I think the High Sparrow wants to get mainly the rich, or he's highly misogynistic. We'll have to see what his punishment for Loras is, if he gets one, because so far he's let Lancel and Polliver go unscathed. Even that High Septon got a lot less of a punishment comparing with Cersei, even when his sins were worst, considering he was the High Septon, he mocked their religion (in a brothel, nonetheless!) and he was fornicating with a bunch of prostitutes, not just one woman. But, then they didn't have so much power, so I'll let that one slide as lack of resources.

[Glory]

But it wasn't only Lancel, all of them got branding on their foreheads. So it wasn't about his atonement, but only about having a cool badge to fully join the club. That's why I still think Cersei's punishment was unfair, even though I hate her and I didn't feel bad about for her for all the things she's done, but she didn't deserve it for those particular sins she confessed.

 

The way it's presented, though, Lancel chose to atone for his sins and sought out the Sparrows and willingly submitted to their nonsense. Cersei was basically forced which was why her punishment was so severe. 

 

If Cersei had run to the High Sparrow with tears in her eyes and turned in a bunch of other people for their sins and confessed hers I have no doubt she'd have been treated much more gently. Though, she'd probably be expected to dress like that creepy "Shame" lady. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Glory