S05.E02: The House of Black and White

[ChocButterfly]

Pallas:

Pretty much!  "Gray scale."  Or, since this is Westeros, perhaps "Grae scael."

 

Oh, thank you!

 

I'm also liking the parallel that you guys have mentioned about Rob's decision of beheading Karstark and Dany's decision here. It's like I said, a lose-lose situation. I don't really think Dany was merely stupid, she should have read the situation better, but she tried her best.

[stillshimpy]

It is a parallel and then it also isn't.  Didn't Karstark kill those very young Lannister prisoners as retribution for his son's death? 

 

Robb executing Karstark wasn't the same kind of mistake.  He was adhering to the Stark way of life where the law was the law and technically Karstark murdered kids who were arguably innocent of any wrongdoing :-/   It turned everyone against him, but it weirdly is what his father would have done.  

[WhiteStumbler]

I still think it is a very close analogy at the very least. The former slave killed the Sonofaharpy because the Son appeared to want a return to the old (slaving) way, but the show also threw out the possibility that the Son was merely paid by the rich and powerful ("They pay him. Great families, afraid to do a thing. They pay poor men to do it for them"). The guilt or innocence of the Son hadn't been determined. If the Lannister kids had been a few years older and had actually participated in the war and had killed a few Northern troops, would that have made their murder in their cells OK? Maybe it would have made it less horrific, but Karstark still disobeyed his King.

 

The former slave killed the former master to have his vengeance and he disobeyed the Queen in order to please the Queen, while Karstark killed the Lannister boys so that he could have his vengeance regardless of what his King wanted.

(Robb) was adhering to the Stark way of life where the law was the law...

 

And Dany said "the law is the law" right before she passed judgement. I'm not saying that it is a perfect analogue, just that it is an analogue.

[stillshimpy]

I still think it is a very close analogy at the very least. The former slave killed the Sonofaharpy because the Son appeared to want a return to the old (slaving) way, but the show also threw out the possibility that the Son was merely paid by the rich and powerful ("They pay him. Great families, afraid to do a thing. They pay poor men to do it for them"). The guilt or innocence of the Son hadn't been determined. If the Lannister kids had been a few years older and had actually participated in the war and had killed a few Northern troops, would that have made their murder in their cells OK? Maybe it would have made it less horrific, but Karstark still disobeyed his King.

 

I don't think they are particularly comparable in the specifics of what went down, Stumbler.   In Robb's case, he brought Karstark to justice without any real "I don't know what to do" about it.  He didn't seem to have the same level of doubt about what the right thing to do was.    I don't think the Former Slave was right to kill the son of the Harpy prisoner (wow, these sentences) , but he thought he was doing it as an act of service to Dany.  As an act of loyalty.  As a freaking favor.  

 

Karstark did it as an openly rebellious act, for his own personal reasons.  I don't think the murder of those Lannister boys would have been made any less or more incorrect by anything, because they were being killed in Jaime Lannister's stead.   In some ways I suppose that's where the most comparable element might lie:  both Son of the Harpy and the Lannister boys were killed as symbols for the crimes of others.  

 

But I don't think Dany and Robb's dilemma's were the same.  The Former Slave Dany had executed thought he was doing her a good turn.  

 

 

Karstark knew he was defying Robb's orders and defied his King.   Robb set his jaw and did it, I think understanding what it might cost him and deciding that was the price that had to be paid.  I don't think Dany understood that the price of following the law might be worse than granting leniency in the long run.  

If anything I think it stood in contrast to her father.  Who reveled in killing his enemies.  Dany was torn to shreds about having to kill someone in the name of actual justice and seemed surprised by the backlash of doing the just thing and taking no pleasure in it.  

Edited April 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Drogon . . . looked almost cuddly, but he wouldn't let her pet him. Mixed signals confused A Viewer.

 

Drogon was roosting on the roof of the Temple -- the palace Dany claimed for herself well after Drogon went missing -- and cooed at Dany as she stepped out onto the balcony.  He then preened for her before approaching her carefully on his sensational, non-vestigial dragon-legs, and extending his head.  It looks to me as if he allowed her a faint touch before taking off.  

 

The tension of that reunion made me squeak.  But did Dany really achieve a "faint touch?"  I thought she didn't.  Her face was a marvel of Mixed Signals.  (Such a face.)  But it looked to me that she hesitated too long.  Did Dany touch Drogo?

[gingerella]

Did Dany touch Drogo?

No, I didn't think she did, which is why I didn't get the warm fuzzy vibe between them at all. It seemed like he bent down eying her and she reached out trying to touch him, but not quite, and he bared his teeth and sniffed her, then popped up and flew off. That's what I thought I saw. I wasn't so sure that Drogo was into her like he used to be. It felt like he was moving on, not really as connected to the Mother of Dragons anymore, and so I wonder what the hell he's going to do now. It doesn't seem like he checks in very often.

[Jan Snow]

Hadn't noticed that the name of each dragon represents a family member Daenerys has lost:

-Drogon (Drogo)

-Viserion (Viserys)

-Rhaegal (Rhaego her unborn son or Rhaegar her brother)

 

I loved, loved, loved the reintroduction of Kevan, who knew that there was a second competent hardass in the family. I hope he sticks around and keeps lecturing Cersei. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Jan Snow

[stillshimpy]

Did Dany touch Drogo?

 

No, I didn't think she did, which is why I didn't get the warm fuzzy vibe between them at all. It seemed like he bent down eying her and she reached out trying to touch him, but not quite, and he bared his teeth and sniffed her, then popped up and flew off. That's what I thought I saw. I wasn't so sure that Drogo was into her like he used to be. It felt like he was moving on, not really as connected to the Mother of Dragons anymore, and so I wonder what the hell he's going to do now. It doesn't seem like he checks in very often.

 

Add me to the list of didn't-achieve-warm-fuzzy and closer to "and it's almost like Jorah was prophetic about the nature of dragons"  --- yes,  when they were tiny they loved and needed Dany, but they can't be tamed and they will always be dragons.   I didn't get "love, need, I'm here for you Ma!" from all of that.  I thought it was that Drogon knew something was wrong.  He was drawn to Dany because he knew something was wrong, but that ultimately it was a farewell, not a touchstone moment.  

 

I think it was goodbye, with an acknowledgement of having cared.  I don't think he bared his teeth as much as he bent down towards her, as if nothing had changed, but was ultimately demonstrating that it had.  Probably permanently, and then he flew away.   It wasn't like a kid leaving for college "see you in six weeks with a metric ton of laundry"  to me it seemed more like, "Before I go, I wanted to see you one last time, but I know what you did to my siblings and you're not forgiven for it.  Goodbye."  

[Anothermi]

The return of Kevan Lannister is neither here nor there for me, but now that you've reminded me that we've seen him before I realize he's got an entirely different personality. The Kevan I remember appeared (IIRC) in the episode where we first meet Tywin (or perhaps the next one) and he was subservient to say the least. Perhaps that was the result of being reminded of how tenuous Lannister-ness can be if you get "above yourself" with Tywin by the ubiquitous strains of the Rains of Castemere wafting about Tywin. Maybe that's why his hardassery is coming out - it's just a song now. 

 

I'm not even sure it's the same actor, but haven't gone back to check it out yet. 

 

On a completely different topic... That young boy who killed Ygritte for Jon has been getting quite a bit of screen time (and we know it was going to have to be Jon or her, so the kid saved him - and us - from the angst of having killed her... or the lack of  angst of being killed himself). Olly is his name (via UICG - Unspoiled Index & Character Guide). He's been in both episodes so far (nearly always looking at Jon with admiration) which makes me wonder WHY? Perhaps he's to become Jon's "podrick"?  Not sure how I feel about that. Eh, as long as Sam, The Wiz, Tarly isn't supplanted!!

 

 

[WhiteStumbler]

anothermi: That young boy who killed Ygritte for Jon...

Ouch. I never got the sense that Jon wanted Ygritte dead!

 

Jon seemed genuinely glad to see her alive at the Battle for Castle Black, even while she was aiming a fully drawn bow at him (for a stupendously ridiculous amount of time), and he seemed heartbroken when he prepared her funeral bier near the face tree north of the Wall. Maybe there was no way that both J + Y would survive the battle, though.

 

Which makes me wonder -- what the Seven Hells will become of the Free Folk if they won't bend the knee to Stannis? If Stannis sends them back north of the Wall and he moves south to begin the long march towards his rightful throne, the FF will just attack the Wall again and overwhelm the Nights Watch. If he reinforces the Wall with sufficient men, he won't have enough to defeat his enemies. If he leaves the FF south of the Wall, "they'll roll over everything and everyone for 1,000 miles before they reach an army that can stop them." Ugh. Another command decision for The One True King.

[Anothermi]

Ouch. I never got the sense that Jon wanted Ygritte dead!

 

Yeah, I didn't think so either, WS.  It was this:

Maybe there was no way that both J + Y would survive the battle, though.

that was the point of that post. Olly reeeeally admires Jon and Jon has not (or so it seems) blamed him in any way for killing his lover. He's been quite philosophical about it all and Olly gets to be proud that he saved the new Lord Commander's life. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

. Olly reeeeally admires Jon and Jon has not (or so it seems) blamed him in any way for killing his lover. He's been quite philosophical about it all and Olly gets to be proud that he saved the new Lord Commander's life.

 

I think the focus on Olly means a) he'll die, because ....this show, you know?  and b) it's to show that Jon is now a mentor and a leader of others.  That he's become someone who others look to for an example and for training.   I think it makes sense that they had to do that, it wouldn't have felt particularly genuine or earned had all the other men of The Wall been all "That Jon Snow, go him! Jon, Jon, he's our man, if he can't lead us...well, the next in line will, because that's the way that works, but we still like him!"  

 

Plus, Olly didn't kill Ygritte for Jon as much as Olly killed Ygritte for his parents and all of his family, who died because the Wildlings couldn't FIND ANOTHER GATE (still bugs me) or send an emissary or do pretty much anything other than kill the one nice dad (remaining) in the Seven Kingdoms.  Thenn the Worst made sure to really let Olly know that too.   So Olly was killing Wildlings because Olly had other people in whose name he was killing.  

 

He just nodded to Jon because the poor dude was going to stand there like a turkey in the rain until Ygritte plucked up the resolve to release that arrow, and she would have.  I think even Jon knew that.  But Olly killed Ygritte for his people.  

Edited April 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Jan Snow]

The return of Kevan Lannister is neither here nor there for me, but now that you've reminded me that we've seen him before I realize he's got an entirely different personality. The Kevan I remember appeared (IIRC) in the episode where we first meet Tywin (or perhaps the next one) and he was subservient to say the least. Perhaps that was the result of being reminded of how tenuous Lannister-ness can be if you get "above yourself" with Tywin by the ubiquitous strains of the Rains of Castemere wafting about Tywin. Maybe that's why his hardassery is coming out - it's just a song now. 

 

I'm not even sure it's the same actor, but haven't gone back to check it out yet. 

 

Its the same actor, I checked. (He was also in a season two Lannister war council in Harrenhall and was referenced by Joffrey in season one as a posible ruler of the north). Always nice to get those callbacks. From the way he told Cersei that he was there to give his respects I gathered that he really admired Tywin. His direct command of the Lannister armies probably started once Tywin settled down in King's Landing. So there must have been some degree of mutual respect and trust between the two brothers.

[Anothermi]

He just nodded to Jon because the poor dude was going to stand there like a turkey in the rain until Ygritte plucked up the resolve to release that arrow, and she would have.  I think even Jon knew that.  But Olly killed Ygritte for his people.

No argument from me there, Shimpy.  He had seen Ygritte kill people in his community but he also could see that she had her arrow drawn at Jon. He also knew that killing her would save Jon. He didn't know (at the time) what Ygritte meant to Jon nor why Jon was standing there like he'd been bitten by a pale spider the size of ... I forget just how big, but BIG.  I think Olly's complex enough to have more than one motivation during the battle. Heck when it started he was cowering in fear behind the lift until Sam told him he should find a weapon and fight too.  He took pride in the fact he was fighting like a NW brother and that he had protected Bro Snow.  That said, I agree that he's probably the same as Tommen. Dead. Child. Walking. 

 

---------

 

Other tidbits that I remember from Ep 02:

I'm very late to posting my reaction - which was much like the rest of yours' - so these are random things I thought while watching. 

 

Braavos - It's kind of a mash up of Rhodes and Venice (water ways for streets). We didn't get many exterior shots when Stannis and Davos were there. I liked it. Doubt we'll get to see the sights though. Pity. 

 

Dany & her history - I think ChocButterfly posted  Dany should learn more about her own history after the home truths provided by Barriston Selmy. I recall that at her wedding, Jorah's gift to her was a collection of books about Westeros, so she may have read them when she was learning Dothraki and figuring out how to survive being a Kaleesi. However, now that we know Jorah was Varys' spy and that Varys was in cahoots with Illyrio to get a Targaryen back on the Iron Throne, I speculate that the thoughtful gift may have come more from Varys than from Jorah. (random, I warned you)

 

Other North related -  We got two 10-year-olds references. One was Osric Stark, the youngest elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Did Jon have a reputation for being a ditherer? People kept trying to dissuade him from joining and making him wait and he was way past 10! <grin> Maybe Starks were tougher way back then - or almost everybody else at the wall had been killed when he was elected? <'nother grin> But then there was the 10 year old niece of Commander Mormont who is head of Bear Island and gutsy enough to tell Stannis that he's not northern enough to bend the knee to.  So just Jon not mature enough in his teens? Yeah, I thought so.  

 

It was great to see Sam and Sheerin in the library. One more book on Sam's quest to learn to become a wizard (OK, my quest for him). 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

Other North related -  We got two 10-year-olds references. One was Osric Stark, the youngest elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

 

Yeah, I thought both were odd and a little goofy, because a 10-year-old is still going to be an actual child.  But then I remember something else and I cant' figure out what the hell it would mean.  Maybe that this story just has an obsession with the age of 10?  

 

Ned about Bran and then again in Bran's vision, "Which one of you was an archer at ten?" 

[Pallas]

About dragons, because dragons.  

 

I think it was goodbye, with an acknowledgement of having cared.  I don't think he bared his teeth as much as he bent down towards her, as if nothing had changed, but was ultimately demonstrating that it had.  Probably permanently, and then he flew away.   It wasn't like a kid leaving for college "see you in six weeks with a metric ton of laundry"  to me it seemed more like, "Before I go, I wanted to see you one last time, but I know what you did to my siblings and you're not forgiven for it.  Goodbye."

 

Maybe!  Drogon's showing his teeth as he sniffed at Dany's extended hand could have been modeled on the gesture a male horse makes when he picks up a scent that interests him: he furls his upper lip flat back on itself, which flares his nostrils and opens his sinuses, while also having the effect of baring his teeth.  (Think Mr. Ed, getting off a good bon mot.)

 

Along with that, though, I guess we'll learn soon enough if Drogon was signalling his independence or his ire.  Maybe both.  I'm still unwilling to believe that he will separate permanently from Dany.  (I know: what show have I been watching, then?  Surely not the one where -- among the major protagonists alone!  -- Sansa and Arya saw their father killed, Cat and Cersei saw their sons killed, and Tywin saw his son see his father killed..)  If Drogon was putting Dany on notice for her lapses as a mother, and she then mends/tears down fences with his siblings, Drogon may in turn relent.  He could show mercy.

 

[Anothermi]

Maybe!  Drogon's showing his teeth as he sniffed at Dany's extended hand could have been modeled on the gesture a male horse makes when he picks up a scent that interests him: he furls his upper lip flat back on itself, which flares his nostrils and opens his sinuses, while also having the effect of baring his teeth.  (Think Mr. Ed, getting off a good bon mot.)

 

I thought his response was rather horse-like too. (after a long search of my memory banks - or mind palace, if you will - because my memory of horse behaviour is ancient and not long). Drogon made a sound, a kind of breathe out snuffle, when Danys hand got closer to him and I had a memory ping. Wasn't dog or cat, or bear. Turned out to be horse (and I thought of you and janjan (IIRC), the horse people on the thread). It's not an unfriendly behaviour either. Curious perhaps, so I left that scene thinking there had been a kind of closeness between them. 

[Pallas]

Horses, like primates, will also indicate displeasure by showing you their rears.  It's a very deliberate gesture that reads exactly like a formal shunning: first a long look in the eye, followed by a stern raising of the head, and then a stately reversal of direction a few angles at a time, like a dinghy changing course.  Finally the looming, unmoving-and-unmoved, more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger, "talk to the butt."  Maybe one swish of the tail.  It's so on point it's comical.  

 

Drogon certainly gave Dany a good view of his rear as he departed, but the flight away was a different message.  It could well be real rejection or dismissal or even indifference.  I'm  just not there yet!

[stillshimpy]

(I know: what show have I been watching, then?  Surely not the one where -- among the major protagonists alone!  -- Sansa and Arya saw their father killed, Cat and Cersei saw their sons killed, and Tywin saw his son see his father killed..)

 

I think Dany's story is really just setting the stage to make it plausible for her to accept Tyrion Lannister as a friend and adviser.  Whereas the "Hi, I'm Tyrion.  My father would have killed me at birth if he thought he could get away with it.  Put me in harm's way as often as he could and may have actually been going to have my head cut off for something he knew I didn't do.   So I killed him before leaving town.  Nice to meet you."  as a calling card really does explain why Dany isn't just going to have his head lopped off, there needs to be something that happens to make him the new Jorah.  Feeling utterly bereft of any kind of familial relationships would do that.  

I can't even believe I am about to type this next sentence, because I really disliked this character when he appeared, but the re-cast for the role has done such a good job of establishing a character I could see Dany liking:  I hope they don't kill Daario in order to further set up the chess board of plausibility. I know, right?  The hell?  When he first appeared I thought he was an unctuous toad, what a rescue job the actor has done on that character, the other guy could never have pulled this stuff off.   What makes that even more of a gobsmacker is I've seen that actor in both Treme and Nashville, and on Treme he was so loathsome I kept hoping his character would try ironing in the bathtub or something else that would take him out of the picture.  Turns out he's just a good actor.  

Anyway, that leads me to something else:  I guess I am not going to get the Jorah and Tyrion:  Exiled Together story.  That would have been fun and if Jorah is gone from this story, I am going to be bummed. 

 

As for the Gray Scale disease that apparently turned two of the Craster girls into animals, I guess it has nothing to do with with Targ lineage after all.  I mean, we know that Craster's gene pool could have practically danced on the head of a pin, so I don't think he had a hidden Targ in his bloodline.  

 

Is his wife's fanaticism supposed to be somehow related to that?   Probably.  Again. Snore.  Although the little girl is cute as a button and I appreciate that she roams that world, bringing literacy (symbolic empowerment, woo!) to the masses, mostly I felt like that scene existed to exposition for her face and establish:  Nope, not a genetic thing. 

 

On Stannis the King of Rulebooks offering to make Jon the Lord of Winterfell and give him the last name Stark, that seemed to be our annual check-in with "No, really.  Jon takes that Oath very, very seriously and even having had sex, still wants to be a monk forever.  Deal."  state of affairs.   It just seemed to be the yearly "Watch Jon choose.  Watch Jon choose the Wall.  Watch Jon be tempted by (insert appropriate temptation: Sex, Power, Power and Sex) .  Watch Jon virtuously recommit to his Oath."  Whereas Kit Harrington is a good actor, he sort of should be at that sort of scene, seeing as every stinking season he has to play that same round of emotions.  

 

Mostly though, it just seemed such an unlikely thing that Stannis would really be ready to set the rules aside so much.  Still, for a weird reason I bought it.  I do think Stannis wants to be King, vs. feeling it is his duty to be King.  As I've said before, I think he believes it to be his just reward for being so dutiful his whole life.  I think that offer is the only acknowledgement that we will ever get that Stannis knows full well he would never have known about his claim to the throne if it wasn't for Ned Stark.  

 

I sometimes wonder what the director says to the actor playing Stannis.   "That was good, good work.  Can we try it again with less evidence of a working circulatory system?  Try blinking less than a real person would and....action!"  

Edited April 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

shimpy: Whereas Kit Harrington is a good actor...

While he may have been only a fair-to-middling actor IMO until the end of last season, Mr. Harrington has really started to pick it up since then. I think a big part in this has been the character -- now that Jon Snuh gets to do something other than stand around knowing nothing, KH has more to work with.

 

If it all ends in tears for Lrd Comm Jon Snow (as it might, now that there are more characters who can be our prism thru which to view the events at the Wall), his crypt should be engraved as follows...

 

"Here Lies Jon Snow: Too Much a Stark to Be Made a Stark"

[stillshimpy]

While he may have been only a fair-to-middling actor IMO until the end of last season, Mr. Harrington has really started to pick it up since then. I think a big part in this has been the character -- now that Jon Snuh gets to do something other than stand around knowing nothing, KH has more to work with.

 

Sincerely, I think he's a better actor than he is often credited with being.  No one ever ends up looking good playing adolescent angst and the "no one understands me and my own special pain!" because, realistically, it's a thankless role to be asked to play.  Yes, almost all of us went through a truly charmless age like that.  I am sure at the age of about 17-19 I was just a true delight myself  (irony alert) , but most of really do go through a case of the poor-pitiful-mes.  

 

So combine that with a couple of circumstances that gave Jon genuine reason to complain and whinge a bit and it's small wonder that the actor took a lot of guff for his portrayal.  The reincarnated Laurence Olivier could not have brought some of that stuff to delightful life.   I think Kit Harrington has always done well in the role, it's just in the last couple of seasons he's moved from "I am a developing person, with all the sharp elbows and awkward knees of emotions that go with that...." into "I am becoming the grown version of myself and with that comes the grace to handle distress without feeling the need to bemoan it."  

 

It's basically the character development, would be my point and I have to hand it to the show and the actor.  They took Jon through a lot of that development.  Candidly, part of the reason I called him Jon Snore for so long wasn't that he was boring me to tears, it's that, once you're well past it, adolescent angst is the least compelling thing to watch because it is a transient part of any person.  Or hopefully it is.  If it isn't....well.....we've all met that person as an adult too and the less said, the better on that one.  

[Pallas]

I think Dany's story is really just setting the stage to make it plausible for her to accept Tyrion Lannister as a friend and adviser.  Whereas the "Hi, I'm Tyrion.  My father would have killed me at birth if he thought he could get away with it.  Put me in harm's way as often as he could and may have actually been going to have my head cut off for something he knew I didn't do.   So I killed him before leaving town.  Nice to meet you."  as a calling card really does explain why Dany isn't just going to have his head lopped off, there needs to be something that happens to make him the new Jorah.  Feeling utterly bereft of any kind of familial relationships would do that.

 

That's such a great passage, shimpy, and you've convinced me: Drogon did a "Shane!" on Dany, at least for awhile.  I'm afraid we'll next see him on a milk carton.    

 

Is his wife's fanaticism supposed to be somehow related to that?   Probably.  Again. Snore.  Although the little girl is cute as a button and I appreciate that she roams that world, bringing literacy (symbolic empowerment, woo!) to the masses, mostly I felt like that scene existed to exposition for her face and establish:  Nope, not a genetic thing.

 

I recall Lady Burn-Them-All Baratheon telling Stannis that Melisandre had healed Shireen.  It was an early scene at Dragonstone where Stannis was almost apologetic with his wife about Melisandre's influence within their family (following the defeat at Blackwater, so well after the conception of Smoke Baby).  But Lady B. waxed exultantly about Mel's glory.  Excellent point about what the scene last week was really for.  

 

It just seemed to be the yearly "Watch Jon choose.  Watch Jon choose the Wall.  Watch Jon be tempted by (insert appropriate temptation: Sex, Power, Power and Sex) .  Watch Jon virtuously recommit to his Oath."

 

More greatness. It's true: Cersei is less serious about her vices than Jon is, about his Oath.

 

"Here Lies Jon Snow: Too Much a Stark to Be Made a Stark" 

 

All hail WhiteStumbler.  And once more, thank you, Ciaran Hinds.  You faced off with Jon Snore, and you woke him up. 

[janjan]

Pallas: Drogon did a "Shane!" on Dany, at least for awhile.  I'm afraid we'll next see him on a milk carton.

There's a Great Debate over whether Shane died at the end. Was he slumped a bit over his horse or not?

 

Drogon, OTOH, has no natural enemies and so is set to live long and prosper. And that might be a reason for A Show to whisk him offstage. Like Aegon, Dany would be invincible with dragons under her command -- even to WWs, who presumably melt, and to Wights, who burn up. So the wars to come would be a single big spectacle with an assured outcome.End of show, no room for a sequel.

 

Oh okay,, this is kind of meta, rather than coming from within the universe of A Show. But it does suggest that Exit the Dragon might be the showrunners' intent. Or else not.

[gingerella]

I cannot imagine thwt A Show will get rid of the dragons, I just cant see it at all.

[stillshimpy]

I cannot imagine thwt A Show will get rid of the dragons, I just cant see it at all.

 

I don't think they are going to, I just think that Dany's relationship to them has fundamentally changed.  I think the two that are locked up, at present, will be there to be worked with and a story developed around them.   

 

I really do wonder if my husband was right in the first episode when he said he thought Drogon (well, he said "the missing one") was going off to find Bran Stark.  

 

Remember King Root Dude telling Bran "You'll never walk again, but you will fly"?   So I don't think any of the dragons are gone from the story, necessarily, but that Dany's primary identifier has stopped being The Mother of Dragons and is more "The keeper of two of them, while the third seems to be following his Bliss, or something."  

 

That Dany's role within the story thus far has really been about searching for love, acceptance, a place to call home and a family.  At least, that's one element of it, as far as I can tell.  But she loses those things over, and over.  First Drogo, then most of the Dothraki blood riders and her relationship to the It Is So trio, then her truth in and relationship too, Jorah.   Now her relationship to her dragons has changed too.  

 

So it looks like we're moving past Questing for Love and Belonging Dany, into "Dany:  The Regent" .  

Edited April 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

There's a Great Debate over whether Shane died at the end. Was he slumped a bit over his horse or not?

 

The book makes it pretty clear -- though even so, in a way that parents could explain it away as, "He went to a ranch upstate where he had room  to run and shoot things, all day long..."  

 

I do think Drogon, though, will return.  As a sign that Dany has moved in the right direction. In the battle likely to come with the White Walkers, I imagine three dragons and three riders: a Targareyn, a Stark and (maybe) a Lannister.  Or Drogon riderless, either on the point, or maybe even waiting until then to appear: a one-dragon cavalry.  

 

I loved your depiction, shimpy, of the apotheosis of Dany, from wandering child to Warrior Queen.  Seeing how the wandering child remains part of her psyche -- how she is, for the moment, still vulnerable within that persona -- was what made her plight in this episode poignant.

 

Dany Regent, or Dany Regnant: Dany Regina?

[stillshimpy]

Steering away from gendered terms, Pallas ;-)  Tis the new thing, you know.  Although it gets ass-awkward when you have to refer to the Chair of a committee because  it feels like a reductive term, "you blend with the furniture, Marlene, I mean, you're the Chair."   Thanks for the kind words though, Pallas, you always have been and remain, the most elegantly encouraging poster on the Wall or elsewhere.  It's genuinely appreciated and I suspect, not just by me.  

 

Anyway, onward.  I keep forgetting to acknowledge this:

 

 

 

 

"Here Lies Jon Snow: Too Much a Stark to Be Made a Stark"

All hail WhiteStumbler.  And once more, thank you, Ciaran Hinds.  You faced off with Jon Snore, and you woke him up.

 

All hail, indeed :-)  You speaketh (typeth?) the truth, Dude.   Whenever anyone wonders about his parentage I think pretty much everyone agrees:  That kid has got have some Stark in him.  Like....whoa.  The Starkensian Aspect is strong in that one.   

 

I still vote Ned, just because it tickles me to truly believe that Ned got to have an actual "I was your first choice" love in his life, rather than Catelyn learning to love the sub for Brandon.  

 

I have almost no romance in my soul, at all.  A fact for which my husband seems eternally grateful, but having said that?  Even my nearly romance-devoid-soul can't take the thought of Ned being so dutiful that he never was in love as a young man.   Yes, I know, he and Cat found their way to be happy, but those first few years had to SUCK what with the "here's my bastard son!" and I know the show got silly with the language, but I think Cat believed Jon was Ned's son because the story she told Talisa would seem to support that.   She vowed to tell Ned to give him the Stark name if Jon lived through the night and that suggests (pretty strongly) that she believed Ned was his father, since the in this world the Paternal side determines the name.  

 

Besides, there's always the thing that brings me up short on believing "he's the love child of Lyanna Stark and ________"  a monarch, essentially because:  

 

 

 

I imagine three dragons and three riders: a Targareyn, a Stark and (maybe) a Lannister.  Or Drogon riderless, either on the point, or maybe even waiting until then to appear: a one-dragon cavalry.

 

This isn't a story prone to the precious or sweet.  It's not a twee story.  The closest thing to sweet that this story does is have Jaqen revealed to Arya as he takes her inside the building to lose her identity and become a feared assassin.  I mean, the dialogue completely outlines that too "That is what A Girl must become" (no one) and I admit, I let out an "Oh thank god" when the actor who played Jaqen was standing there, because he was great.  I hope we continue to see them together.  My heart was freaking broken when he turned around with some other dude's face the last time and I thought we'd never see him again.  

 

But that's as close to heartwarming as this story gets.  So I don't think there's a secret love child roaming around, ready to save the world somehow.  I don't think the enemies will ride together to stop their common threat.   

 

I don't think Roose Bolton will have a spiritual awakening and if we ever find out what happened to Benjen the Perpetually Missing it will be when Bran recognizes a Zomboni or a stray thigh bone as being all that remains of Benjen Stark.  

 

The story doesn't just veer away from the sweet and fanciful, it actively spits in its eye.   So...I don't envision things like that.  Maybe the three dragons each eating a Stark,  a Lannister and the last Baratheon, then kicking back to pick their plentiful teeth with their bones before flying off to flambe an army of the dead....before becoming completely extinct again for another thousand years when the Drowned God rises from the sea and extinguishes their heart fire, or whatever keeps the winged suckers alive.  

 

This is a cynical story if ever there was one.  The closest it gets to "yahoo!" is when Joffrey chokes on his own vomit and that leads to the guy trying to avenge his brutally murdered sister and her children getting his head squished into a gooey puddle and his charming paramour starts thirsting for the blood of the innocent and drinking bile to go along with her bitter tears.  

 

My motto for watching this show is brought to you by Ronald Spiers, of Band of Brothers fame.  Weird story, but I used to be in touch with one of his stepsons back when BoB aired and apparently Spiers had no memory of saying this, so it was dramatic license, but still great, great line:  "You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead."

 

Although it is worth noting that the biggest mistake BoB made was in the way it completely misrepresented Blithe's story.  He lived.  He went on to be a decorated war hero who didn't hide in ditches or die of throat wounds and who, presumably, either accepted that he was already dead and thereby lived....or never gave up hope.  

 

For this story?  I accept the fact that everybody is already dead so that I'll be pleasantly surprised when someone lives.  

 

It will just likely be Ramsay, is all. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Anothermi: Drogon made a sound, a kind of breathe out snuffle, .... Turned out to be horse (and I thought of you [Pallas] and janjan (IIRC), the horse people on the thread).

Uh oh, I've been made. Gotta change my avatar.

[Anothermi]

Uh oh, I've been made. Gotta change my avatar.

 

Hee! One thing I love about this thread is that I've learned about a lot of wide ranging things. All being at least tangentially related to some aspect of GoT. I loved one fairly long exchange back on TWoP that was horse related. Learned a lot (as I said, my own horse knowledge is not much and ancient). So your outed yourself. :-P Love your new avatar, btw. (also liked the little dragonette)

 

Stillshimpy:  But that's as close to heartwarming as this story gets.  So I don't think there's a secret love child roaming around, ready to save the world somehow.  I don't think the enemies will ride together to stop their common threat.

Yeah. There's that.  I cling to my (and others) pet theory on Jon's parentage, linking Lyanna with Rhaegar, because I don't want to let this show become Ramsay to A Viewer. But pragmatically I am quite prepared for Ned and some unknown, mundane "other woman" to be Jon's parents. It's my back up plan to ward off being "Reeked".

[Pallas]

Thank you, shimpy!   What you said means a great deal to me. 

 

I see the storytellers as a coven of recovering romantics.  I see them as recovering romantics who celebrate their ongoing recovery with scenes like Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding and Joffrey's existence and...who will steer us all a far, far, twisted way before they fall off the wagon: but fall off the wagon they will.  Or rather, leap off.  I see the nearly unremitting darkness as their seeking to earn credence for a story that aligns with principled people in an amoral universe.  A story that takes sides, and offers a way of being and a course of action -- acting for the common good -- that may save a world: even if it fails, with this fictional world.

 

So the blight and the viciousness are there not only to make a stir and advance the plot -- cruel twist by cruel twist -- but to establish the authors' bona fides as no twee spinners of yarns, no minstrels of the sylvan school, no shrewd vicars.  The horror plays the role of Nixon in an "Only Nixon could go to China" way.  By the end, though, I believe that a romantic view of what people might be, what people might do, will prevail -- even if the people do not.  Good may not win, but good will show what good is worth. 

[gingerella]

Holy shit, Pallas, that was beautiful, man...seriously.

*claps slowly and with deep appreciation and affection*

[stillshimpy]

By the end, though, I believe that a romantic view of what people might be, what people might do, will prevail -- even if the people do not.  Good may not win, but good will show what good is worth.

 

That was beautifully put, Pallas, but I sincerely doubt it and there are a lot of reasons.  I don't think the author knew when he first started this "Wow, this will be a wildly successful story!" and the first season wrapped up with very little hope of good things to come, other than Dany standing in the ashes with Dragons, suggesting that she would get to the Kingdoms and take down all the players, but having lost all personal ties.

 

I think the story tellers are actually the grow children, or you know, Martin is the grown child, because whereas there are show-runners, it's all based on his stuff who read all the nice stories as a child.  This was born in the mind of one man.  

 

I think he's the guy who grew up and realized that all the nice fantasy stories he read as a child did nothing to prepare him for the real world.  That he also studied The Wars of the Roses and a couple of other "boy, it's sort of easy to spot some historical influences here"  or at least is familiar with the highly fictionalized stuff (Richard III , for instance) and he decided to start combining the two.  

 

But one thing has remained constant in this story:  goodness and honor take it in the nuts over and over.  The only belief that goodness has a reward here is that at least they usually get swift deaths, rather than the lingering brutality afforded to most of the others.  Although, Joffrey's end was nowhere near as awful as it should have been.  

 

Anyway, I just don't think you're right on where the story is ultimately going.  We're  in the fifth season here and reliably very little good happens to anyone, but the good reliably die.   

 

Jon Snow still wanders around, sticking to his Oath and whereas he's alive....it's more like he's the surviving member of the Stark squadron as opposed to an actual victor .   

 

We'll see though.  I just think this is not that story where the writers believe in the higher nature of men.   Four full seasons and yeah, I say with a lot of confidence: this is not that story.  If you're right, you're right and I will be the first to congratulate you on it.  We've known each other long enough for you to know that's true.  

 

But I think Hemingway nailed this one already, "Yes, isn't it pretty to think so?"  

 

Truthfully I think this story teller is determined to stick with cynicism.  

 

ETA: You know what else?  When I got done posting that I went and did something else for a bit and it occurred to me to ask myself this question: Do I hope you're right?  

 

At the end of season one, I did.  By the end of season two?  I still sort of did.  By the end of season three I was well into the "Why do I even watch this show?"  and by season four the sea change came "Well, they've pretty much killed off anyone I actually cared much about, or liked and this last one ....Oberyn....felt like an actual punishment for daring to like a character....but it didn't take me by surprise in the way it should have..." and I stopped asking stuff like, "Why do I watch this show?"  because it was just a sort of detached, "I still sort of want to see what is going to happen, because this isn't like other stories."  

 

And that's why I guess I can't even hope you're right.  It's pretty much committed to the "Look, this isn't the kind of story you're used to, okay?  But you're still watching, aren't you?   It's still an intriguing story, even while it repels you, isn't it?"   

 

It's shooting for interesting, I think and never sweet.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy