Sarah's Sober Second Thought Series: Third Through Sixth Verses, Same As The First (Evil)

[Primetimer]

The Big Bad throws down a mean-girl gauntlet in the Buffy Rewatch.

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[AndySmith]

"From Beneath You, It Devours".

It = the writing, You = season 7

 

And everything you said about Anya and her relationship with Buffy & Co. was spot on. Seriously, why do any them give a crap about her if she is no longer with Xander?

Edited April 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[sinkwriter]

 

 

WHY IS TARA BURIED IN SUNNYDALE? She's not from there. We've met her family.

 

I thought her family pretty much disowned her for being a witch and hanging out with the "weirdos" in Sunnydale. Buffy, Willow, Xander and crew became Tara's true family, so Sunnydale is her home.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I think you're right, but I still wouldn't buy that Buffy et al. wouldn't try to contact them/they wouldn't want to take custody of the remains. Never mind the fact that Buffy is not next of kin, couldn't have afforded the funeral costs/headstone, etc. And the headstone wouldn't have been ready in the third place, but that's just a TV/movies thing that's always wrong.

In a larger sense, I could let the Tara-burial thing go if there weren't so many other things, and nothing else to occupy my mind. I'm sure S3 is riddled with the same sorts of logical squishy parts; I'm just less inclined to pay them any mind because the pacing is better, Big Bad is more believable, subplots are integrated better, and so on.

[sinkwriter]

 

 

Never mind the fact that Buffy is not next of kin, couldn't have afforded the funeral costs/headstone, etc.

 

Given all the crazy deaths on that show, maybe the funeral homes started giving discounts on headstones.   ;)

 

 

 

In a larger sense, I could let the Tara-burial thing go if there weren't so many other things, and nothing else to occupy my mind. I'm sure S3 is riddled with the same sorts of logical squishy parts; I'm just less inclined to pay them any mind because the pacing is better, Big Bad is more believable, subplots are integrated better, and so on.

 

Most definitely. In fact, when you brought up this point, I didn't even remember seeing a headstone or a burial for Tara. That's how long it's been since I've watched season 7. Because I had so many issues with the final two seasons, I haven't rewatched them yet, whereas I've already rewatched the first few seasons of Buffy repeatedly over the years because of everything you've listed (pacing better, more believable, etc.). 

[Fat Elvis 007]

To clarify: Zachary Ty Bryan and hooded secret societies were both part of Veronica Mars, but they were not one and the same. :)

"Help" is my favorite episode of the season, and one of only two or three genuinely good episodes in S7. It's slow, but it makes up for it with a really compelling story of the week. It's great to see the gang focus on helping someone outside their inner circle again.

I've ranted before about how overrated I find "Selfless." It's a very entertaining episode in and of itself, it just doesn't fit anything we know about Anya or vengeance demons up until this point. Why did NO ONE remember that you can reverse a wish by destroying the vengeance demon's amulet? You can't convince me that Anya never told them how she lost her powers in the two plus years she was with Xander. And even then, no one even bothers to do any research before debating the merits of killing Anya.

Also, does she have a soul when she is a demon or not? Gee, it's a good thing the writers weren't simultaneously doing a big storyline about a newly ensouled demon, otherwise people might ask these types of questions!

[AndySmith]

She has a sooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuulllllll! Or, not.

[Spartan Girl]

You know that episode would have been a great opportunity for Xander to acknowledge that his situation with Anya wasn't much different than Buffy's with Angel and now he understood how difficult it was for her, and using that as a way to plead for Anya's life. But noooooo....

Not only does he have the nerve to say "you don't know how I feel", but when Buffy DOES bring up Angel, Xander just blows it off saying that it was "different". Yeah right, different because he was fine with killing Angel.

Maybe both of them were hypocrites in this scene, but Xander even more so IMHO.

[Jack Shaftoe]

That's what often happens when a late addition to the writing team decides to try to achieve the success of a classic episode by copying its formula. In case people didn't notice the "subtle" parallels between Becoming and Selfless, Goddard even had the Scoobies raise the specter of Xander's "Lie", which, shock and horror, led absolutely nowhere. Of course, as already mentioned the situations are not that similar at all. Not only there was a way to take away Anya's powers that the Scoobies should have be aware of, but also her being a demon was utterly irrelevant. She had been Anyanka 2.0 for months now and had helped the Scoobies a few times, so obviously she wasn't totally evil. Killing her would be completely fine by me, because she was one blood-thirsty psychopath, albeit a funny one but that's beside the point. The point is it was not a kill the bad guy or let the bad guy kill many people situation - the third option was the most obvious solution, actually.

 

 

Never mind the fact that Buffy is not next of kin, couldn't have afforded the funeral costs/headstone, etc. And the headstone wouldn't have been ready in the third place, but that's just a TV/movies thing that's always wrong.

 

Didn't several months pass between seasons 6 and 7? How much time does it take to make a headstone?

[Llywela]

Didn't several months pass between seasons 6 and 7? How much time does it take to make a headstone?

It's not about how long it takes to make the headstone. Headstones are not placed on a grave for about a year after burial because the ground is still settling - put it up too soon and it'll just collapse.

[Fat Elvis 007]

We've seen vampires rise from headstone-affixed graves since Season 1, despite the fact that we know vampires are supposed to rise the same night they are killed. It seems odd to complain about headstone issues at this point. Though it's true that plot holes become more noticeable when the show isn't good enough in other areas to sustain our attention.

I have a big problem with Buffy trying to kill Anya, especially after last season when she was vehement that Willow must! Not! Kill! Warren! The explanation we're given is that it's OK to kill demons but not humans, but at this point the definition of "demon" has been so thoroughly abused that there is virtually no moral basis to this. There is no difference in personality, conscience, or outlook between Human Anya or Demon Anya. She is written as the exact same person, only with powers. She feels remorse as a demon which should be impossible.

In the first few seasons--hell, even this season when it comes to Spike's storyline--we are told that the human soul is what allows beings to feel remorse and what gives them moral worth. It's ok to kill vampires and demons because they lack this. But now we have good demons and neutral demons and remorseful demons. How is this possible? Would it be OK to kill, say, Lorne? "Angel" says no and seems to argue that it's just because he is harmless, but never explains why if he has the potential to be that way others don't as well. Both shows still have their main characters drawing a bright line between killing even the most evil of humans and killing demons, but the reasoning for that line just doesn't make sense anymore.

Say what you will about Spike's storyline, I felt that it was always clear that as an unsouled vampire he did not have the same moral worth or potential for goodness as the humans in the cast. Even though he did good things it was always for a selfish motive. Plus the chip could be looked at as a behavioral conditioning tool--he adapted, but he didn't gain a true conscience until he gained his soul.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

There is no difference in personality, conscience, or outlook between Human Anya or Demon Anya.

 

If anything, Anyanka 2.0 showed more remorse than Anya ever did. But that's to be expected when midway through the show they decided to turn the demons into basically aliens but kept on calling them demons and having the protagonists slaughter them without hesitation, while going to extreme lengths to avoid killing even the vilest of humans.

 

 

It's not about how long it takes to make the headstone. Headstones are not placed on a grave for about a year after burial because the ground is still settling - put it up too soon and it'll just collapse.

 

Thanks. I guess it's true that you learn something new every day.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe

[paramitch]

I like "Conversations with Dead People" as a standalone, but as a part of a contiguous whole in S7, it drives me nuts. It's artful and well done, except for the question, as the recap beautifully points out, of why the First Evil would even want to bother with terrorizing Dawn. There's just no logical reason for it. Although I will say that in terms of real spookiness, those scenes with Dawn and her Joyce visions were terrific, as was that final, eerie reveal of the First Evil to Willow.

And even with Buffy, there's nowhere for those conversations to really go, because the show has already set in stone from day one that vamps are irrevocably, irredeemably bad unless ensouled. So for me, the only plotline that was even worthwhile in that episode was Willow's -- and there, the fact that they couldn't bring back Amber Benson for a guest appearance seriously lessened the impact of the character (although I love Skye and did think she did as well as possible in her return role, and especially in the original "Help," where she was just lovely).

The funny thing about the dilemma of Anya's character this season is that it simply exaggerates that she has always been a completely illogical problem. She's just even more illogical in S7. I love "The Wish" -- it remains my all-time favorite episode -- and in that, as many of us have noted, as well as these rewatches, Anyanka bears no relationship to the tactless, stumbling, unfunny/hilarious character she turned out to be in later episodes. So that's frustrating, as is the group case of amnesia among the Scoobies about resolving the crisis without killing Anya.

The show's simplistic approach to good and evil is more apparent this season than ever (which was probably why Buffy constantly keening about Spike's soooooooul got so freaking annoying) -- ironic, because someone else here mentioned "Angel," and to me that show was, from day one, far richer and more complex in its painting of a world in which humans and demons mix at will. Lorne there was unquestionably demonic yet unquestionably a power for good, and I loved that the writers simply allowed the characters' good or evil to be dictated by their actions.

Because, on "Buffy" at about this point, the moral relativism was just so, so strange it was very hard to follow. It had nothing to do with what people did or even with who they were, but only with WHAT they were. And that got really disturbing for me -- something "Conversations With Dead People" could have captured, if they had been willing to give us a vampire who even for a moment wrestled with his nature, and did so without a soul.

But as always, great rewatch.

Edited April 15, 2015 by paramitch

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"on "Buffy" at about this point, the moral relativism was just so, so strange it was very hard to follow" - Thiiiiiis. And yet at the same time it was simplistic as far as its being expedient for whatever plot or conflict they were trying to make happen that week.

[Halting Hex]

Exhuming, as I will sometimes do, a Waybacked link to Sarah's original essay.  Because, if the internet isn't forever, what is?

Also, she used a very nice screencap:

It would be nice if our S7 Three Musketeers Moments are a) more frequent and b) about something other than shared Dawn-lust, but to a dehydrated man Mountain Dew tastes like Dom Perignon, or something like that.

And some clips from the essay, for those of you who are too busy to just read the thing:

Quote

Conversations With Dead People, a genuinely creepy and upsetting hour that nevertheless takes too long to tell us things we already know

Yeah, 7.07 is one of the few examples of craftsmanship in this season, but aside from my standard complaint about how it's just set-up and the follow-up sucks, it does drag a bit.  And not just in the completely-useless teaser or the "deep" Holden scenes.  Or Jonathan getting misty about his locker combination…

Quote

Again I have to wonder why the First Evil is bothering to mindfuck Buffy, Dawn, and Willow when it is, by definition, an abstraction that cannot per se be defeated.

Yeah, other than "this is Buffy's show", there doesn't seem to be much reason for Windbag to care about our cast.  To quote Chuck Palahnuik, "On a long enough timeline, the life-expectancy for anyone drops to zero."  Buffy's gonna die.  She has died, twice already.  She's almost boring now, allegedly:

Why should the Evilest Evil Ever give a shit how long it's going to be until Buffy takes the permanent dirtnap?  Because Buffy screwed up its plans to mess with Angel four years ago?  Well, piling even more guilt on King Brood has its pleasures, but come on, now.  To quote the wisest person on the show, 

I mean, if freaking Glory had enough self-image to not obsess over Buffy, you'd think The First would, too.

To quote Sarah again:

Quote

the FE's pettiness and divisive tactics are sort of impressive (of course "Buffy won't choose you" is going to work on Dawn) but at the same time absurd (see above re: the FE having, one assumes, bigger fish to fry)

I mean, yeah.  Is "I mindfucked Dawn Summers" really worth putting on your EEEEEEVIL résumé?  This is the girl who can't work a crossbow, for Pete and Debbie's sake.  Just toss a ball of yarn into a corner and you're done with Key-face, I'd imagine.

And speaking of somebody who wasn't even in CwDP, but still won't go away:

Quote

The most irritating element of "Selfless," though, is the hammering on how Anya is their friend and needs redemption. I understand the realities of the situation vis-a-vis 1) Caulfield having a contract and a spot in the credits and 2) the writers needing Anya around in some capacity for the climactic fight, but sing it with me if you know the words: the Scoobs only ever tolerated Anya for Xander's sake. I still don't understand why he had to leave her at the altar if it was this important to the S6 and S7 stories that she stick around, or why, if she went back to being a vengeance demon, she'd have a home base at all, much less in Sunnydale -- it kind of doesn't work that she's still on the show as a regular, but if they're going to force that fetch to happen, don't try to retcon it so that everyone's friends and Buffy refuses to let Anya go down whatever killy road. She is A DEMON. When she was a human, you THOUGHT SHE WAS ANNOYING.

Seriously.  Anya's entire arc is about Xander:  Anya dates Xander, Anya wants to marry Xander, Anya wants to kill Xander. If Anya's done with Xander, we should be done with her.  And if we have to follow her "finding out who she really is", then hanging out at Buffy's place doing dishes probably shouldn't be it.

It actually feels as though Joss was keeping her around just so he could kill her off in the finale.  Which, way to shit on Spike's Big Moment, dude.  Poor Spikey:  he goes from having his impressive debut turned into a joke so the show can fluff Joyce, of all people, to having his big climax copycatted by Vengeance Girl. 

Dude just can't catch a break in this town.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

the Scoobs only ever tolerated Anya for Xander's sake

Don't wanna start this song all over again but if the Scoobs really cared about Xander, they shouldn't have tolerated Anya at all.