Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[Anothermi]

 

Oh!  That reminds me: a meeting between Jorah and Varys should yield some interesting backstory.

Oh YES! The oblique snarkmeister vs. an unarmed man. Score one for us!

[gingerella]

But of course, Jorah could be exactly the means by which Tyrion finds his way to Dany.  And perhaps -- even more eventually -- the means by which Dany is persuaded to forgive Jorah.

When you first mentioned this idea I was thinking, "but, but, but how do we know Jorah and Tyrion will actually be on the same continent?" Again, I cite my shit for brains remembrance of anything related to A Show's past seasons! But seriously, if they do indeed bump into each other, this is an interesting and intriguing idea. Dany did say she'd kill Jorah if she ever saw him again, right? Though his admiration runs deep for her so I always sort of envisioned Jorah Mormont riding just out of view of Dany and her hoard, so, yanno, he could swoop in and save her lovely ass someday, should she require saving, and I'm sure she will one day the way she runs her mouth some times. You cant always have a dragon at your disposal when you're telling folks how sucky their lives are, yanno what I mean?!  But I digress...Watching Dany banish Jorah was one of the biggest bummers that A Viewer has had with A Show thus far. That really hit me hard and I'd love nothing more than More Jor, and more Jorny or is it Danorah? ;)  Jorah swaggering around with his giant sword hanging jauntily at the diagonal as he swarthily saunters around in front of Dany like a bird of paradise trying desperately to mate before he dies. I want those two crazy kids to do it - at least once - during A Show's reign. I don't even care if it's in the books or not, that is what I want, so there. *stomps foot and pouts*

[WhiteStumbler]

After Tyrion killed his father, he and Varys boarded a ship, about which Jaime had earlier said "A galley is waiting in the bay, bound for the Free Cities."

I don't think Jorah has had enough time to get very far, so I assume they are all going to be in Essos.

 

Of course, they could sail past each other, but I hope not!

[stillshimpy]

I can never make up my mind about how I feel when it comes to Dany banishing Jorah.  On the one hand, she's have died the night she tried, and failed, to save Drogo's life and lost her baby if Jorah hadn't sat up and protected her when she was unconscious.  Plus, so much of what she managed to accomplish and conquer was, in large part, also because of Jorah's help. 

 

On the other....he spied on her and lied to her for years afterward.  Even if it was a lie of omission in the aftermath, it was still one hell of a thing to omit.  I don't think Dany could ever forgive him. 

 

Similarly, I doubt Dany would be well disposed to Tyrion Lannister, I know, I know The murderer of my enemy is still....the son of the guy that had her entire family slaughtered :-/  I mean, sure Tyrion could use Patricide as a calling card and see how far it gets him.  I just don't think that anyone who was in power in King's Landing will ever be accepted by Dany.  Tyrion didn't kill Tywin because he sucked on every known level, he killed him for deeply personal reasons.  Just as Dany is like to want to kill anyone with the last name of Lannister.  

 

I guess I have been assuming that Jorah hasn't simply left the story, although I suppose that's possible, it would sort of suck from my perspective.  I do think he'd make a fun team with Tyrion though.  They are now both men who can never return home.  I guess another part of the reason I hope Tyrion doesn't go and join Dany in any capacity is that Cersei is so likely to just make killing Tyrion her life's friggin' mission.  In fact, I can't help but wonder if Cersei will dump one brother and try to hunt down the other.  I can't imagine she's going to be okay with Tyrion having escaped death AND having killed her father.  

 

As much as I would love to have more Bolton and Greyjoy blood spilled, it is a tough proposition to root for when it would empower LF.

 

Yes White Stumbler, in as much as I agree with the above in theory, in reality - well, A Show's reality that is - at least Littlefinger is a repulsive, creepy yet quite intriguing character to watch on A Show because one never really knows what is behind each move in his life's chess game or what his end game actually is. The Bolton's OTOH, are just nasty, debased pieces of fetid shite, so I'm quite happy to see LF get more power if it means finally getting the fucking Bolton's off A Show and out of A Viewer's mind once and for all, thankyouverymuch!

 

Littlefinger is, at least, interesting and unpredictable.  Plus, whereas he is every bit as monstrous as ...well, about half the characters in this show...he's a little difficult to predict.  Even before Bolton had nearly all the Starks killed, it was easy to see from a viewing perspective that he held Robb in little regard.  So when he betrayed Robb, it wasn't exactly a shocking twist, but rather a confirmation of how much he sucks.   Ramsay is just plain old-fashioned boring , he's too much of monster to enjoy watching on any level.  I just want him to die.  In fact, I hated watching Ramsay get his heart's desire.  I loath him entirely and completely. He's just grotesque and predictably so.  

 

Littlefinger at least keeps me guessing.  

[janjan]

No links included here, since I got my wrist slapped and learned my lesson. But anyone who hasn't seen the YouTube clip of Seth Myers inviting Jon Snow to a New York dinner party hasn't lived a full life. There are no spoilers in it.

[ChocButterfly]

Well, I'm sure Sansa and Tyrion's marriage could be easily dismissed, as it was never consummated. The thing is, he couldn't married her as long as Cersei is in power. He has to keep her a secret for now. If he indeed gains enough power to contrarrest Cersei's, then sure, he'll openly oppose the Crown, marry Sansa and get the North. If he manages to get rid of Bolton, that is.

 

I don't believe Dany would ever accept Tyrion on her side, even if he killed her worst enemy. He's still a Lanister, and she can really hold a grudge. Plus, there's no way she'd ever trust a traitor (in her mind). 

 

I don't know if Tyrion and Jorah could meet. I guess they're going to be in the same continent now, but I have no idea where either of them are. Plus, isn't Arya going to the same continent as well? I'd like to see Arya joining Dany. Now that could really work, even though Arya is a Stark, you could say they had more legitimate reasons to fight in the rebellion, you know, with Dany' s dad burning Ned' s father and brother. Of course, it seems like Dany hasn't heard the whole story or really doesn't care to hear it. But Dany wouldn't have to know who Arya is, just that they have similar enemies to take care of.

[Pallas]

Dany certainly does have reason to reject-with-extreme-prejudice anyone from any family connected with the rebellion that overthrew the Targareyns.  Tyrion is the brother of the man who slew her father, and the former brother-in-law of the man who hunted down her brother and assumed the throne.  He was himself Acting Hand to King Joffrey (blech).  It's also true, as ChocButterfly points out, that Dany has an old-school view of oath-breakers, and Tyrion's turning on his family and the reign he served may not recommend him to her, at all.

 

I just feel a narrative momentum toward unlikely allies slowly and reluctantly moving together to defend the world against the real threat.  (And to pull together a story scattered among several continents.)  It's already happening in the North, as Stannis and the Watch make common cause with the Free People.  Why not the South?  In the North, Jon Snow has acted as liaison between factions, and Barristan Selmy might do the same between Dany and Tyrion.  Dany has forgiven Selmy for failing to protect her father, and then going on to serve the rebel king.  Selmy could speak to Tyrion's continual rejection by his father, sister and nephew, and what Tyrion might add to Dany's circle by way of his knowledge and under-used capacities.     

 

And Tyrion is in the top tier of protagonists.  What will A Show do with him, just rattling around the Free Cities, near no one of consequence for him to chafe and yet abet?  "On the run" has been done to death.  And even those main characters perpetually in flight have each taken on a destination, a goal, however vague or ill-conceived.  Tyrion needs a new portfolio, a position where he can exercise his intellect, wield some influence, and perform his real job: to speak snark to power.  Dany and her story are painfully in need of such insight and irreverence. 

[stillshimpy]

I think Arya is definitely bound for Braavos so I'm not sure how likely she is to encounter Dany.  For once though, it isn't Dany's firm policy of "taking what is mine! Burn my enemies!"  that would stand in the way of Arya joining ranks with Dany.  Arya is pretty bound and determined to make sure the people responsible for the deaths of her family and friends suffer and die (she seems to prefer that they suffer as well as die, judging by the Hound's fate).  It doesn't take a lot of complex math to figure out that Ned Stark and the ruination of the Stark family is closely tied to the "a threat from the remaining Targaryens"  .  Ned was called to Kings Landing not just because Jon Arryn was killed (it occurs to me it would be a riot if the guy actually just died of a heart attack and everyone just thinks he was murdered cue the chaos!  Yes, I am joking, by the way), Ned was called to Kings Landing because -- among other things -- Viserys was joining forces with a Barbarian Horde to take back the throne.   

Arya's not likely to be too well disposed to Dany and her cause, would be my point.  She's more likely to be all, "Is there something wrong with your leg?  Need me to carry you? *slice, dice, julienne fry*" if given the opportunity.  Also, I doubt very much that Dany actually understands that Ned Stark found Tywin Lannister's complete slaughter or her family completely reprehensible. 

 

Last night, as prep for tonight, we rewatched the season 4 premiere and finale (great way to skip the Bolton/Ramsay/Theon in between, by the way) .  Once again, what the hell is wrong with HBO that they can't figure out that people watching season four might not want to see previews for season five?    So much loud singing and La La La'ing (being literal here, we started loudly freaking out to block sound while trying to blindly fast forward) ensued.  Seven gods and four stray aliens, HBO, cut.it.out.  

 

There were things I'd sort of forgotten (or blocked out) about the finale. One was that The Hound damn near killed Brienne,  until she put him down like a dog.  Now, I'd love to think that Brienne wouldn't attempt to save the guy who really made great inroads towards killing her and The Hound's wounds looked grievous indeed.   However, I'm now pretty firmly convinced that The Hound is not gone from the story.  He's in too close a proximity to Brienne and Pod.  Brienne is honor bound in the same way that Arya is bound and determined to exact revenge.  

 

So if nothing else, they'll try to save him.  

 

I still don't have a particular problem with Arya leaving him there.  He will always be the person who killed Micah, first and foremost in Arya's mind.  The only thing his -- if you're willing to expand the definition rather wildly -- "good" deeds did was stop her from actively trying to kill him.  

[Pallas]

I agree, shimpy: I think Arya is done done done with fellow travelers.  Jaqen is the one person left alive she trusts in any way, and who knows what face he's on to, by now.  Arya wants part of no family, no reign, no cause.  She was bound for Braavos or Bust, seemingly with one mission in mind: a completely new life of her own, on her own. 

[stillshimpy]

Pallas, oddly enough, she first tried to go The Wall, not Braavos.   When she asked the ship's captain for passage initially, she was trying to get to The Wall.  He said he wasn't going there, he was bound for home -- Braavos.  That's when she produced the coin.  

 

So she was initially trying to get to Jon, heavens and hells help her as that would have been a frying pan, fire situation "head towards the active war, possibly crossing through Bolton territory (?)  Whee?" 

 

That was something I didn't remember until I saw it again last night.  

Edited April 12, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Arya' s only goal now is to cross her list. She's definitely going to study a at Jaquen' s school of face-changing murderers, where he initially invited her, wherever that is. The problem is, I don't think she'll ever finish that list since she's bound to keep adding people to it. She's making a list and checking it twice.

 

I'm still not sure Dany would ever join forces with Tyrion to take the crown. Although I'm sure, by the end of the series, EVERYONE, will be joining forces, no matter which side they're on, to fight against the White Walkers. They have to, and that has to be the end of the series, the freaking winter finally coming!

 

I was watching yesterday the episode where Theon's sister says she's going to rescue her little brother, against her father's wishes. Damn, that was a fine heroic moment! I'm trying to ignore how it all ended after that... Which reminds me, where is she again?? She's alive, no? I really like her, even though I can't remember her name. But if I like her,  that means she won't last long. 

[Anothermi]

I agree, shimpy: I think Arya is done done done with fellow travelers.  Jaqen is the one person left alive she trusts in any way, and who knows what face he's on to, by now.  Arya wants part of no family, no reign, no cause.  She was bound for Braavos or Bust, seemingly with one mission in mind: a completely new life of her own, on her own. 

Yes. This is my feeling as well, but Shimpy's reminder of why she was trying to get on the ship in the first place (I'd forgotten that) indicates she still has a desire to reunite with any family who is left. She is still a child after all. She always felt supported by Jon Snuh (™ WhiteStumbler, thanks) and it was her plan, when she started out from King's Landing, to rejoin her family.  I think she'd also want to know that Bran and Rickon are not dead. 

 

But, the pull of revenge is very strong in this little grasshopper and I think if she joined Jon at this point he would probably disappoint her. Perhaps by treating her like someone who he has to protect. Despite knowing that women can be ferocious fighters, he too, has lost family members and was unable to help protect them, so that could easily be his primary need around Arya. 

 

I think there are a lot of ways Arya's story can go. Like, if she joins the face-changing assassins? What is the personal price she'd have to pay for that "skill"? Not to mention the Red God/Lord of Light aspect. (ergh)

[Pallas]

Pallas, oddly enough, she first tried to go The Wall, not Braavos.   When she asked the ship's captain for passage initially, she was trying to get to The Wall.  He said he wasn't going there, he was bound for home -- Braavos.  That's when she produced the coin.

 

Looks like I am oddly enough...Thank you, shimpy and anothemi, for the correction -- it's crucial.  Arya's making one more effort to connect with family...then chance steers her to Braavos.  So she first chose to trust Jon and not Jaquen, before embracing fate and turning away from the North.  All I remembered was the resolve and small triumph in her face, in the prow.  Not "I'm King of the world!" but rather, "Good luck and good riddance, all you kings of the world..." 

[Anothermi]

Stillshimpy wrote:

Ned was called to Kings Landing not just because Jon Arryn was killed (it occurs to me it would be a riot if the guy actually just died of a heart attack and everyone just thinks he was murdered cue the chaos!  Yes, I am joking, by the way),

I've only got as far as S04E05 in my re-watch and in it Lysa Aaron greets Littlefinger (after Sansa has gone to her room) with a demand that they marry that evening and, explaining her impatience, she recounts that they (she and Littlefinger) had their wedding night long ago. Then she goes on to speak of all the things she had done for him (out of love born from that one night together)...

She had put the poison into the wine of her husband, Jon Aaron. She had written to Catelyn accusing the Lannister's of the deed, as per Littlefinger's instructions. I had forgotten all about this!

 

All the evil conniving he has done makes me suspicious of Littlefinger always, but I'm surprised that I actually forgot when some of our suspicions were confirmed. (This makes me think that it must have been Littlefinger behind the attempt on Bran's life and the mystery of "Knifey", just sayin'.) 

 

So, back to the quote. "Cue the chaos" indeed! All part of Peter-the-Planner Baelish's master plan. I hope that there are others who are shown to have master plans (Varys?) because too much Littlefinger-directed chaos will undermine the scope of the story for me. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

 Big yes to this:

I just feel a narrative momentum toward unlikely allies slowly and reluctantly moving together to defend the world against the real threat.  (And to pull together a story scattered among several continents.)  It's already happening in the North, as Stannis and the Watch make common cause with the Free People.  Why not the South?

So who's "on the move" right now down South? We've got Tyrion and Varys bound for where exactly? The Free Cities, yes? Again, shit for remembrance, that's me...And we've got Dany and her dragoons in Mireen, yes? And we've got Arya heading to Braavos, yes? Is Braavos considered part of the Free Cities or it's own city, do we Unsullied know that yet? I know it's the financial epicenter of Westeros what with all the cryptic "oooooo, Bank of Braavos will be pissed..." this and that. IIRC, those three distinct groupings are "across the sea" yes?  Those on the move on the KL side of the sea include: Sansa & LF, the NW & Stannis and his F-Troops (please someone be old enough to get that reference...), Brienne and Pod, the Scooby Doo Crusaders, and Rickon & Co.  Oh, and the Wildling and Northern Folks north of the Wall.

 

But it feels like things in KL are proceeding status quo whence we last left A Story, as if the world Has Not Changed. ie: Cersei is still trying to fuck over everyone and acting all Queen Regent and puppet master-ish, Margie is still trying to give Tommen his first handy so he'll fall in lerve and marry her thus finally making her THE Queen, treachery and conniving continues in KL unabated or so it would seem. We're not sure what path Jamie is on yet until we see the fall out from Daddy Dearest's shitter of death situation. But overall, IIRC, things are coalescing both North and across the Sea, so folks are saying Yes To Change at The Wall and North of the Wall, and assorted "change makers" are heading to Braavos and the Free Cities zip codes, thus making KL sort of stuck in the past, eh? They either don't realize that change is in the air because they are smug fuckers who think their shite don't stink (well, at least until they find Papa Lannister on his shitter, I'll bet that stinks plenty right there! Hate to be the servant to clean that mess up, just sayin'!), OR their raven grams are getting stuck somewhere along Kings Road and overseas. I hadn't thought of this tri-area scenario until this morning, but I'm thinking all signs point to KL eventually falling because it wont recognize that the times, they are a'changin', and it'll come back to bite them in their asses...but that might not happen until Winter Comes, or Blackie does a fly over, whichever comes first, and that could be several seasons away as the crow flies (sorry, it was too easy to not do that...).

Edited April 12, 2015 by gingerella

[90PercentGravity]

I am far enough along in my re-watch the realize that the reason the last memory I had of Jaime was him stumbling into King's Landing was because I apparently blocked out everything Jaime-related from season 4, including the dreaded sister rape. Ugh. I hope Jaime and Cersai both die in a fire.

 

I hope that Tyrion and/or Varys end up in Braavos, it sounds AWESOME, and I'd like to see it from more than just Arya's perspective.

 

I wonder if Tyrion is broke now or if he has some fund somewhere that he can live off of? Did he has the presence of mind to move some money around when he was master of coin?

 

I'm not sure where Brienne and Pod were at the end of the season, I haven't gotten that far in my re-watch. Are they outside the Vale? I predict Pod will be super hot.

 

Were Jon Snow and Stannis still chilling out north of the wall when the season ended? Maybe Stannis is going to unite the North, including the north beyond the wall. Ugh, is Melissandra going to bring religion to the Wildings?

[WhiteStumbler]

Ugh, is Melissandra going to bring religion to the Wildings? -90PercentGravity

Ugh, indeed! What a fantastic spitball!! She was eyeballing Jon Snuh rather significantly thru the flames of the funeral pyre at Castle Black as the season ended.

 

Jaime and Cersei are problematic for me. Both have admirable qualities, yet both are broken in deep and significant ways (besides the de-handing of Jaime). And whatever the rape scene was trying to convey, I think A Show would have us believe that, at the end of last season, Cersei had forgiven Jaime and had chosen him as her family. Everyone else could go hang. (ETA: How she will react to the news that Jaime's actions freed Tyrion so that he could kill Tywin and escape will be interesting, to say the least)

 

The last we saw of Brienne and Pod was them looking for Arya after the Hound rolled down a cliff to his final encounter with Arya.

 

See you all on the other side!

Edited April 13, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

(ETA: How she will react to the news that Jaime's actions freed Tyrion so that he could kill Tywin and escape will be interesting, to say the least)

 

I wonder if Jaime will pin the blame on the now-missing Varys for the sake of expediency and sparing any other parts from being chopped off, 'cause I'm thinking Cersie might be nut-ripping mad over that one.  

 

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; or close the wall up with our English dead!

 

Or something having to do with Walls and dead and....breaches.  Not breeches.  Probably britches.  

 

Leaving now, back later ;-)  

[gingerella]

Fellow Spitball Wall brethren, I have made no bones about my undying love of the direwolf pups. A Show disappoints me like a naughty frat house boyfriend - and repeatedly no less, so shame on me, eh?! - and yet, my love of the wolves knows no bounds. I think I may have wet myself in giddy delight when I saw Ghost gnawing on his après battle bone at Castle Black, good boy Ghost!

 

I keep wondering where Nymeria, Summer and Shaggy Dog are. We know for sure right now, that Ghost is safe and sound with Jon, and I think we assume that Shaggy Dog is hanging out somewhere in the general vicinity of wherever Rickon & Co. are.  But what dost thou all think about Nymeria and Summer? I sort of feel like Nymeria and Summer have to find each other in the forest somewhere, right?  Since Arya is now across the sea about to disembark in Braavos, there's no way she will bump into Nymeria unless Ny was captured and brought across the sea as some sort of exotic animal entertainment, which could happen, though I doubt it. Summer could be anywhere near the Root People, yes? Or no? I remember Summer was caught and caged at one point (or was that Shaggy?)when the Scooby Doo Gang got caught out at whatshisplace. But IIRC, Summer was also released because didn't she kill one of the baddies by cutting a bitch in the throat? I have some vague remembrance of that...anyway, did Summer accompany the Scooby Doo gang to the tree root people or no? I cant remember...

 

It always seemed like not only did the direwolves bond with their human Stark siblings in a psychic way, but that they might also be connected to each other as well. It makes sense to me that if they have such a deep connection to their human counterparts, then they ought to have a deep connection to each other as litter mates who almost perished at...never mind, and fuck you again Theon, you dickless wonder. Annnnyway, where do you think the remaining wolves are and do you think they will reappear again, either together or separately?

[janjan]

There, there, Ginger - it's all right. <offers tissue>  Well, actually not for Lady and Robb's Woofie. But four of them survive, and batting 666 and 2/3 ain't bad, right? I remember Bran telling Hodor (Hodor) to release Summer when the Muffins left Craster's, so he must be all right. Unless a White Walker ate him, but we won't think about that. There, there. Those cartoon zombies are no match for our woofies. It would be most cool if the WWs make it south, sweeping aside the puny human armies, but get wiped out by Nymeria.

[DirewolfPup]

Another thread brought up knifey and who sent him to stab Bran. I feel more certain that Littlefinger is the culprit here.

[WhiteStumbler]

Nymeria will have to have grown as large as one of Dany's dragons to have a significant impact on an army of the blue-eyed undead and WWs.

 

I'm sure that Summer was in the Battle of the Magical Frozen Lake. I assume that Shaggydog is off with Rickon. Ghost is with JS, gnawing those Thenn bones. I believe Nymeria is alive, but I just wish that A Show would throw us some mention of a direwolf sighting or something. The only thing I noted on re-watch was the farmer from Season 2 who gets two orphan boys from "Winterstown" (I think -- like Boys Town for Northern orphans?). When he is requesting some help from Bran and Rickon is smashing walnuts, the farmer complains "And it's not just thieves, My Lord. There's wolves in them hills now, more than I've ever seen. They come down in the night and they kill my sheep."

 

Didn't work out well for the farmer, his wife, or the orphan boys. Bloody Theon. I wish that he could magically regrow his junk at night, so that Ramsay could cut him every day. Idiot.

[Anothermi]

Summer could be anywhere near the Root People, yes? Or no? I remember Summer was caught and caged at one point (or was that Shaggy?)when the Scooby Doo Gang got caught out at whatshisplace. But IIRC, Summer was also released because didn't she kill one of the baddies by cutting a bitch in the throat? I have some vague remembrance of that...anyway, did Summer accompany the Scooby Doo gang to the tree root people or no? I cant remember...

 

janjan wrote:          I remember Bran telling Hodor (Hodor) to release Summer when the Muffins left Craster's, so he must be all right.

 

Take heart Gingerella, janjan is correct. I re-watched that Episode in the past few days and, yes, Summer was caught in a trap (presumably set by the mutineers) when Bran was warging him to reconnoitre. Bran/Summer had just seen Ghost in a cage and fell into the trap as they headed towards Ghost. (Bran did un-warg in time)

 

But, I'm posting this to remind you the the show gave us a "now that's justice" moment around Ghost. We were shown Rast (that bastard who bullied Sam constantly) forced to take food out to Ghost in the cage, and instead he taunted Ghost by pouring water outside of his cage and not giving him food.  He ran away like the coward he was when Ghost got so agitated he started snarling and gnawing at the bars of the (wooden) cage. 

 

Then, when the Night's Watch arrived (just in time to save Meera Reed from a fate worse than death), Rast manage to avoid any serious fight and when that Karl guy (had we ever seen him before Season 4?) finally got killed by Jon Snuh, Rast ran for his life only to run towards the caged Direwolves - who both had, I assume, been released by your Scooby Doo Gang. Ghost was the only direwolf there, and he got to remove Rast's throat from his neck!. Fitting, don't you think? It really was the finest moment of that whole series of scenes. 

 

It also suggests that Summer must have left with Bran and Co. 

 

* special thanks to Nymeria's name sake for the Unsullied Character Index which I relied on for this post. 

 

One more note. Bran got to see Jon Snuh fighting and wanted to go to him, but Jojen reminded him that if he showed himself Jon would take him back to the Wall for protection and Bran wouldn't get to the Weirwood tree and the three-eyed raven he was seeking. Bran chose to continue his quest and that's when he ordered Hodor to go and free Summer. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Anothermi: 100% correct, with one (possible) correction: My read was that Rast ran away from in front of Ghost's cage not because Ghost was snarling at him, but  because the water he had just poured out to taunt the caged direwolf suddenly froze solid and cold winds were rising as something sinister was coming for the baby that Rast had left for the "cruel gods".

 

Ghost later kicked some ass in the battle for Castle Black, and Summer pitched in at the skeleton fight just before the Muffins met the 3-Eyed-Raven.

Edited April 15, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

that Karl guy (had we ever seen him before Season 4?)

He was mouthing off to Commander Mormont, and then he and Rast killed the commander. I don't remember which season that was.

 

Btw, with all the talk about Jon's bloody oath ("bloody" in the British sense of annoying), what about Commander Mormont's oath? He fathered at least one child and was presumably married. And how did a lord of the Bear Islands end up at the Wall anyway? Did I miss some back story?

[WhiteStumbler]

S4 was the first we saw of the Fookin' Legend of Gin Ally IIRC.

 

what about Commander Mormont's oath?

THAT is a really cool question, janjan! I'm sure there is a story about how the honorable Jeorh Mormont came to be in the Nights Watch. Maybe if Jorah and Jon ever meet to discuss Longclaw and the deceased Lord Commander, then we might get some of that backstory. And maybe find out where Bear Island is?

[Anothermi]

Anothermi: 100% correct, with one (possible) correction: My read was that Rast ran away from in front of Ghost's cage not because Ghost was snarling at him, but  because the water he had just poured out to taunt the caged direwolf suddenly froze solid and cold winds were rising as something sinister was coming for the baby that Rast had left for the "cruel gods".

 

Ghost later kicked some ass in the battle for Castle Black, and Summer pitched in at the skeleton fight just before the Muffins met the 3-Eyed-Raven.

 

I stand corrected. I remember the puddle freezing, but at the time of writing the post, couldn't remember if that was before or after the last Craster boy was offered up.  Rast was also the one sent to leave the Craster boy out in the woods.  He didn't improve his lot much by siding with the mutineers, did he?  In fact I think he'd taken up Sam's position of NW member easiest to bully. (hee)

 

janjan:   Btw, with all the talk about Jon's bloody oath ("bloody" in the British sense of annoying), what about Commander Mormont's oath? He fathered at least one child and was presumably married. And how did a lord of the Bear Islands end up at the Wall anyway? Did I miss some back story?

 

 

I think we had a bit of discussion, back on TWoP, about how Jeorh Mormont came to join the NW. Don't remember much of it, but it was tied into the disgrace of his only son (don't know if we've had that confirmed, but he gave his sword to Jon which indicates no one else to give it to) being a slaver and sentenced to death (and then running away). He might have done something reprehensible in trying to protect his son, but his speech to Jon didn't sound like a father who felt sympathy. He may have volunteered as some kind of penance in lieu of the head of Jorah on a spike? 

[WhiteStumbler]

I don't recall that discussion, but either response sounds reasonable given what we know about Ld. Comm. Mormont -- do some sort of penance for his disgraced son, or doing something rash to protect Jorah.

 

Heading for the Wall in disgrace makes me think of S2E03 and Yoren's story...

"I saw my brother stabbed through the heart right on our doorstep. He weren't much of a villain what skewered him - Willem, the lad's name was. He ran off before anyone could spit, and I just stood there, watching my brother die. But here's the funny part... I can't picture my brother's face anymore. But Willem... oh, he was a nice-looking boy. He had good white teeth, blue eyes, one of those dimpled chins all the girls like. I would think about him when I was working, when I was drinking, when I was having a shit. It got to the point where I would say his name every night before I went to bed.
Willem.
Willem.
Willem.
A prayer almost. Well, one day Willem came riding back into town. I buried an axe so deep into Willem's skull, they had to bury him with it. Willem's horse got me to the Wall, and I've been wearing the Black ever since."

Edited April 15, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Anothermi]

I should clarify that the reasons I laid out here are speculation I'm coming up with now. Back when this issue would have come up before, the discussion would have been tangential at best. I just have a previous memory of us wondering why Mormont Sr. was at the Wall and linking it with Jorah - once we knew they were father and son.

 

I must confess, though, my memory is notoriously ... fluid. By that I mean memories can appear, like time travelers, in dimensions they'd never been before!

Edited April 15, 2015 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Thanks for the pup update, I'd forgotten that Ghost was also captured at Crasters...So Ghostie Boy made it back to Jon Snuh, and Summer went with the Scooby Doo gang...IIRC, Hodor is okay with the root peeps, right? Nothing bad came to him right?

 

It's funny, as fucked up the ass as the Stark Clan seems to be, they've only lost one sibling thus far in all the madness. It's sad that they all pretty much assume the others are likely dead, but they are all surviving by their wits, even Sansa, which I suppose says a lot for their adaptable ways. If I'd been Sansa I'd likely have killed myself when Joff's was threatening to do unspeakable things to her.

[Pallas]

Btw, with all the talk about Jon's bloody oath ("bloody" in the British sense of annoying), what about Commander Mormont's oath? He fathered at least one child and was presumably married. And how did a lord of the Bear Islands end up at the Wall anyway? Did I miss some back story?

 

I don't recall ever hearing Mormont's backstory.  As White Stumbler points out, though, when Mormont joined or was exiled to the Wall, he took the family sword with him -- which not only suggests that he had no heir other that Jorah to leave it to, but that Mormont  was Lord of Bear Island at the time.  So along with Aemon Targareyn and Sam, Castle Black boasts at least three men who were or would have been heads of their Houses. 

[stillshimpy]

 Btw, with all the talk about Jon's bloody oath ("bloody" in the British sense of annoying), what about Commander Mormont's oath? He fathered at least one child and was presumably married. And how did a lord of the Bear Islands end up at the Wall anyway? Did I miss some back story?

 

Well, when Ned was going to "take the Black" rather than be executed if he would confess to treason (and all that followed with that double-cross) it came as a surprise because we had been given to understand that the men of the Night's Watch could "father no sons".  Apparently that means after taking the Oath, because between Ned -- who never got there, but also didn't say anything like "I can't go to the Wall because that's for those who never married" -- and Mormont it's pretty clear that they can.  

 

When Mormont gave Jon his family sword he made some mention of his son.  So maybe out of shame for his son's crimes and cowardice *  he took the Black? 

 

* I am assuming that the only greater shame than bringing down a death sentence on your own head and thereby shaming the family name, is to then cluck like a chicken and run away for decades to try and escape punishment.   Not, mind you, that I think it is a mark of extreme cowardice to try and escape having your head lopped off.    

It's just that I can understand how it compounds the shame Lord Mormont would have felt.  Selling slaves to keep your wife in the style she wishes to live probably didn't exactly impress Mormont.  Running away from that land's punishment is probably that much worse.  Even Ned was willing to have his head chopped off, but Varys talked him into the confession that would allegedly spare his life, for the sake of his children.   Just saying, Jorah sort of doubled-down on the dishonorable moves there.  

 

 

 

It's funny, as fucked up the ass as the Stark Clan seems to be, they've only lost one sibling thus far in all the madness. It's sad that they all pretty much assume the others are likely dead, but they are all surviving by their wits, even Sansa, which I suppose says a lot for their adaptable ways. If I'd been Sansa I'd likely have killed myself when Joff's was threatening to do unspeakable things to her.

 

Well and then there also seems to be at least a little something to the key to surviving the Kingdoms lying in exactly that sort of "Sure, my family.  Woo.  Ain't it glorious?  However, instead of living my life -- and thereby severely limiting its span -- trying to fluff up the family honor and have all my deeds reflect that, I am going to carve my own path.  See ya!"  

 

I doubt we will see Yara anytime soon, but she was the latest person we saw to (I think rather wisely) choose to accept the matter at hand as being the way things were.   She set off to save Theon and she absolutely would have, if Theon wasn't such a shell of a human being, who damned near got her killed.  Wisely or unwisely she seemed to decide "Sure, he's not dead, but there's no point in my standing here and dying for a guy who is clearly deranged past the point of saving."  

 

Sansa pitched her essentially Starkian character and even traded on the family name and reputation for honor to help Littlefinger.  I don't think it was because she was just that grateful to him for saving her life either.  It just seemed calculated as the "I've been passed around like an honorable and pummeled hot potato.  This guy sucks and is evil, but he's also the only person who actually got me away from Joffrey and saved me from a blood-friggin'-relative who tried to kill me for being prettier than she is.  I could do worse than to stick with him, creepizoid that he is."  

 

Arya, sort of interestingly I think, did try to set out for the Wall, but was through overestimating her own ability to get there completely by herself, across a particularly savage land.   Bran has joined the Lorax brigade, or whatever the hell King Root Dude is.   

 

I really don't like anyone with the last name of Lannister very much.  Even Tryion can be awfully hit or miss for me because of his tendency to drown his ass in self-pity and liquor.  Looks like that is subject to change soon though and it seems due, in part, to his willingness at long last to abandon ties to the "I want to be considered an equal Lannister."   Half the reason Tyrion was still in Kings Landing, at that wedding was that he did seem to cherish the idea that he could, at some point, be made the heir of Casterly Rock.  

 

Not, mind you, that I can blame him for that one either.  It was just past a certain point, glaringly unrealistic.  

 

There are just some instances in the story where it seems pretty clear that people would be well-served to declare themselves an island in the genetic sea, and carry on accordingly.  It seems rather key to survival.  

Edited April 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Sansa pitched her essentially Starkian character and even traded on the family name and reputation for honor to help Littlefinger.  I don't think it was because she was just that grateful to him for saving her life either.  It just seemed calculated as the "I've been passed around like an honorable and pummeled hot potato.  This guy sucks and is evil, but he's also the only person who actually got me away from Joffrey and saved me from a blood-friggin'-relative who tried to kill me for being prettier than she is.  I could do worse than to stick with him, creepizoid that he is."

 

"Honorable and pummeled hot potato," indeed!  From early in the first season, shimpy, you have consistently and eloquently advocated for Sansa as a credible character within her context, and as a young woman who uses what she was given, to survive.  I really like how the story has built up our understanding of that, and how you perceived and expressed it from the first.  Brava.

 

What seemed mealy-mouthed about Sansa's statement in the makeshift trial of Micah and Arya (that turned into the sentencing of Lady), was just the first instance of our seeing how Sansa can slide like a fish between much larger and formidable forces, retaining her integrity and gaining our respect as she continues to do so -- and gets better and better at it.  Better at doing it, and better at concealing it.  

 

It's as if Sansa's the Tully her mother was not, and her aunt merely strove to be.  Sansa hasn't made Lysa's mistakes of indulging her worst nature, or of taking on someone else's game for her own.  What I mistook for timidity is her knowing how to intuit and seemingly align with what other people want -- what drives them, past reason -- and when to keep her thoughts to herself.  And she has also learned how to keep her heart intact and under wraps.  She resists by not succumbing, despite all the assaults made on her by others and by life. 

[gingerella]

If I springboard off this current discussion, and assign a one-word adjective for each Stark child, and including Jon, I would do the below to match their overarching characteristics that A Show has shared with us thus far:

 

Robb = Fighter

Sansa = Observer

Arya = Reactor

Jon = Defender

Bran = Seeker

Rickon = TBD

 

When I look at the above, I see a composite of a Stark, with each sibling having one dominant characteristic of Ned.  We already know that the fighting gene did not bode well for Ned, Robb or Cat.  But so far, the remaining Stark siblings, each of whom seems to have a piece of the Starkian make up/psyche, but not the whole enchilada in each kid, seem to be fairing better than their parents and eldest brother.

 

If I take it a step further and assign a two-adjective description of each Stark sibling I end up with this:

 

Robb = Noble Fighter

Sansa = Quiet Observer

Arya = Emotional Reactor

Jon = Moral Defender

Bran = Truth Seeker

Rickon = TBD

 

We all know now that if A Show has taught us anything, it is that "noble ways" don't amount to a pile of shit in this world. So no surprise Robb is dead.  But the "quietness" of Sansa's observations has been growing with each season and I have high hope for her future story line. Arya reacts from a place of emotion, pretty much always. She is the most knee-jerk of her siblings, always has been since we first saw her learning to use a sword at Winterfell in S1. That is not the best Starkian quality to possess and yet, I think she will learn to harness her emotions for more precise purposes once her training in Braavos is complete (whatever that "training" might be). Jon is like the moral compass of the sibs, he is the defender of the downtrodden, wants to do "the right thing", again, not a great quality to have in this world they live in, but he has grown over 4 seasons and we now see him possess the qualities of compassion (not allowing Mance to suffer needlessly), and compromise - he is not rigid in thinking, and thus I feel more and more he would make a great ruler because he can be ruthless in the right moments, strategic under pressure, yet possess compassion and understand the importance of compromise. What qualities could a successful ruler have? Pretty much all of those. Jon is the antidote to the Lannister terrorizers. And then there's Bran, whose accident pushed him toward a destiny he likely would otherwise never had had, that of a truth seeker. What truth, we don't know yet. Rickon, I have no clue yet, he's a wild card as far as I'm concerned.  Perhaps this doesn't make sense and sounds like gibberish...

[WhiteStumbler]

...Bran, whose accident pushed him toward a destiny he likely would otherwise never had had...

So... "Thanks, Jaime Lannister"? ;-)

 

Arya... is the most knee-jerk of her siblings

And we saw that right from the start, flinging food at Sansa at the feast and sewing up "sheep shift" in her sisters mattress. Arya lives by a code, though -- she wouldn't kill Rorge until The Hound got his name for her to add to her list. Lawful Neutral, in the old D&D parlance.

 

I'm struggling to find "Quiet Observer" characteristics in Eddard.

[gingerella]

WS, I think Ned was observant to some extent, though not his greatest gift for sure, I added the extra adjectives but they don't necessarily mean Ned had 'em!

[janjan]

What seemed mealy-mouthed about Sansa's statement in the makeshift trial of Micah and Arya (that turned into the sentencing of Lady), was just the first instance of our seeing how Sansa can slide like a fish between much larger and formidable forces, retaining her integrity and gaining our respect as she continues to do so -- and gets better and better at it.  Better at doing it, and better at concealing it.

Great insights, O Brethren and Sistren of the Spit-Covered Wall. I would quibble with just one point, quoted above. Sansa didn't "seem" mealy-mouthed at the trail - she was mealy-mouthed, because she still had dreams of being married to Prince Charming. It was only a short time later that she told Ned, "I don't want someone noble and kind - I want him." <Arya snickered for us all at that.> Sansa didn't retain her integrity and she certainly didn't gain my respect -- I think she's a weasel who will grow and blossom into the next-generation Littlefinger.

 

Not that she has much choice. Just as we're seeing the series of steps by which Arya becomes a cold-blooded killer, we're seeing the steps by which Sansa becomes a sneaky manipulator.

Edited April 16, 2015 by janjan

[Pallas]

Perhaps this doesn't make sense and sounds like gibberish...

 

I think it's brilliant, gingerella, and sounds like wind unfurling through the Weirwood tree.  It has the same rich texture of the story itself.  It feels like it.

 

I'm struggling to find "Quiet Observer" characteristics in Eddard.

 

Oh, I think Ned had 'em, Stumbler, especially within his family.  It appears he observed his wife and each of his children closely and circumspectly.  Observed and understood.  He was able to interpret Sansa to Arya, and Arya to Sansa (I didn't say he was able to make either of them listen).  He saw Robert for who he had been, and then, for who he was.  Also the other two Baratheon brothers. 

 

It's always been my impression that Young Ned the Second Son was very much the quiet observer -- particularly in comparison to his charismatic and emphatic older brother.  Littlefinger had his reasons for loathing Brandon and disparaging Ned, but I think his assessment of the two young brothers' personas was probably on the mark.  What he saw as Ned's stolidity -- sometimes overcome by what Littlefinger believed was the Stark impulsiveness -- was something else.  A quality of solitary watchfulness that he and Ned actually shared, but that Littlefinger could not recognize or credit in a man otherwise so different.  One who married Catelyn Tully, sired five children with her, was beloved by the King and Lord of a Great House.    

[Anothermi]

Lovely Ode to Ned, Pallas. We get so used to bashing his qualities because they caused us to lose him, and him to lose the Game. But they were likely why he was so beloved in the North where they don't play those kind of games. They just try to survive with dignity. 

 

And for the initiating poster - well observed Gingerella.

[DirewolfPup]

janjan

Great insights, O Brethren and Sistren of the Spit-Covered Wall. I would quibble with just one point, quoted above. Sansa didn't "seem" mealy-mouthed at the trail - she was mealy-mouthed, because she still had dreams of being married to Prince Charming. It was only a short time later that she told Ned, "I don't want someone noble and kind - I want him." <Arya snickered for us all at that.> Sansa didn't retain her integrity and she certainly didn't gain my respect -- I think she's a weasel who will grow and blossom into the next-generation Littlefinger.

 

Whoa whoa whoa, I gotta stand up for m'lady here. In Season 1, back when Sansa plead with Ned to stay in KL to be with Joffrey, this was right after (and I do mean RIGHT after) that romantic scene with Joffrey.  You know the one. Soft lighting, Joffrey apologizing, saying all the right romantic words, the necklace as a gift, and the kiss.  It was a 14-year-old girls equivalent of a panty-dropper. Was she naive? Yes. As a woman myself, I can remember such delusions early in my dating life. I had a crush on almost every boy in my class at some point or another, and none of those boys were a rich king-to-be. Who here has dated someone as a young lad or lass that was completely wrong for them, but still made excuses as to why they "love" them (sheepishly raises hand). Until this point, Sansa had only seen the Micah indecent as a warning of his true character. And there he was apologizing and making it up to her.  It's hard to keep in context that we saw Joff be a little shit long before Sansa or even Ned did. We had more information than they did.

 

I've been defending Sansa since I started posting around Season 2. No matter how awesome she gets, how steely her stares, how much resolve a person can have for being beaten and tortured, yet holding on to her grace, poise, and life... someone will bring up that she liked Joff in Season 1. Therefore, she's awful. I'm glad that people are starting to come around on her, but goodness gracious, all teens have one thing in common. They grow out of it. I can't wait for Arya to grow out of whatever she's going through. I don't find her stabby-stabby personality to be all that fulfilling. It's a little one note. Maybe Braavos will help round out her character.

 

In general, talking to people here and IRL, I notice that the people who get the most love and adoration on this show are the good-ish guys/girls who typically resort to violence. Ned, Jaime, Robb, Dany, Brienne, Arya, The Hound, Bronn, J'aqen Hagar, Stannis, Jorah, Oberyn, Yoren (who had like 3 scenes, but still gets remembered). The manipulators and con-artists of the world get so little credit: Varys, LF, Sansa, Margaery, Cersei, Tywin. While I love most of the characters on A Show, I back the manipulators first :)

Edited April 17, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[WhiteStumbler]

The manipulators and con-artists of the world get so little credit:

Don't forget Ser Pounce! I've got my eye on that cat.

 

This is the scene that really cemented Sansa's shift from "punching bag" to "well, this looks promising" for me...

(ETA: S2E9: Blackwater)

Joffrey: Your king rides forth to battle. You should see him off with a kiss. My new blade: Hearteater I've named it. Kiss it. You'll kiss it again when I return... and taste my Uncle's blood.

Sansa: Will you slay him yourself?

Joffrey: If Stannis is fool enough to come near me.

Sansa: So you'll be outside the gates fighting in the vanguard?

Joffrey: A king doesn't discuss battle plans with stupid girls.

Sansa: I'm sorry, Your Grace. You're right, I'm stupid, of course you'll be in the vanguard. They say my brother Robb always goes where the fighting is thickest, and he is only a pretender.

Edited April 17, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Anothermi]

Oh Yeah. Sansa really learned how to play with words. Perhaps that's one of the reasons Tyrion liked her. They share that trait. 

[janjan]

Until this point, Sansa had only seen the Micah indecent as a warning of his true character.

Dire, was that intentional or the typo of the year?!

 

I just wrote a longish post respectfully disagreeing with your defense of Sansa, but it disappeared. Drat! Why does that happen?!

 

Anyway, the gist of it was that I'm not faulting Sansa for having girlish dreams. I had such things  myself back in the day. In fact, I'm not really faulting her at all -- just observing what has happened to the Stark girls since they came to KL. The first thing I observed is that Sansa lied through her teeth at the trial to save her Prince-Charming dream. Uh oh.

 

Soon the sh*t hit the fan and the girls had to find their own way to survive.

 

Cute little tomboy Arya saw horrific acts of violence, and she was mentored by tough guys -- Ned, Syrio, Gendry (still lost at sea?), J'aqen, the Hound -- until, step by step, she became a tough guy herself. We don't know yet whether she will become a complete psychopath. Probably not, as each of her mentors, even the Hound, had some sort of code.

 

Dreamy little Sansa was brutalized and humiliated almost beyond endurance, but who have her mentors been? Tyrion tried but to no avail. Sansa's mentors were Cersei and Littlefinger. Cersei advised her to use her lady parts to her advantage, and we saw her sexy slink down the stairs at the end of S4. (Yuck.) And that conspiratorial look she gave LF over the shoulder of the lady judge who was comforting her when she pretended to cry was downright chilling. That, I think, her final turn to the Dark Side.

 

Sansa isn't yet in the same league as Cersei and LF, just as Arya isn't yet a real live faceless assassin. But Sansa showed early on that she would lie for her own advantage, and now she's under the wing of the master. As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.

[stillshimpy]

Both Sansa and Arya learned exactly the same lesson:  Adapt to the current set of circumstances and environment, or die.  

Edited April 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Word to that, Shimpy. They were both lucky that the traits most useful for survival in their new circumstances were exactly the ones they already had. Arya was already a mini-badass who delighted in fighting (though without hostile intent). That we saw in the first scene at Winterfell when Bran is learning archery and Arya outshoots him. And Sansa had already revealed herself as a self-serving liar at the trial (which happened on the Kings Road before they got to KL). She was willing to condemn Arya's innocent wolf to save her dream. It's just desserts that her own wolf paid the price (though not so nice for Lady). If their situations were reversed -- Arya a hostage at KL and Sansa loose in the countryside, it's likely that neither would have survived.

[gingerella]

If their situations were reversed -- Arya a hostage at KL and Sansa loose in the countryside, it's likely that neither would have survived.

Janjan, I love this line of thought so much! You are right I think, they both would have perished ages ago if they'd been foisted into reverse situations...I suppose when Ned lost his head (hee, sorry, it was too easy not to...), each ended up exactly where they were supposed to be in order to survive.

 

BTW Janjan, I like your new dragon very much, but I do miss your ??? avatar greatly because it expressed how I feel most of the time after watching A Show! ;)

Edited April 18, 2015 by gingerella

[janjan]

I had hoped the new avatar would make me smarter and more fearsome, but it doesn't seem to be working.

 

I think A Show is demonstrating how character forms by the accretion of decisions made in the face of circumstances, piled on top of a basic ontology.. Arya wasn't a born killer -- she was a born adventurer, tomboyish and impulsive. Her first kill was the stableboy who caught her on the way out of KL. She seemed startled herself that she killed him. By now, after facing several kill-or-be-killed situations, she's become more deliberate about it. Now she's a killer, although not gratuitously so. The Hound wanted to kill the old man they stole the wagon from on the way to the Twins, but she decided it was sufficient to knock him out. But she didn't hesitate the kill the soldier who bragged of sewing the wolf head on Robb, and she coldly left the Hound to die in pain even though he had saved her life several times over. He killed the butcher's boy, after all, and she has a long memory.

 

Sansa, in contrast, was a more submissive, obedient character, happy to adopt "women's ways" -- witness how pleased she was in the first scene at Winterfell when the septa praised her embroidery. But submissive has a dark side, amply demonstrated in the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment. A bunch of college students, who had all tested boringly normal on psychological tests, were randomly divided into prisoners and guards. The experiment was halted after five days because the guards had become sadistic ogres and the prisoners weaselly sneaks. Passive aggression is the only avenue open to someone who is brutalized but powerless. Cersei (who had been "sold like livestock" to a husband who ignored (despised?) her) and LF (the poor boy with all his possessions in one little sack) illustrated to Sansa how the underdog can survive and thrive. She really had no alternative in her situation but to adopt their ways. I'm wondering how far she will go.

[gingerella]

Janjan, I freaking love your analysis of both Arya and Sansa!

 

Edited April 20, 2015 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

There's two ways of looking at Sansa's experiences.

 

Dreamy little Sansa was brutalized and humiliated almost beyond endurance, but who have her mentors been? Tyrion tried but to no avail. Sansa's mentors were Cersei and Littlefinger. Cersei advised her to use her lady parts to her advantage, and we saw her sexy slink down the stairs at the end of S4. (Yuck.) And that conspiratorial look she gave LF over the shoulder of the lady judge who was comforting her when she pretended to cry was downright chilling. That, I think, her final turn to the Dark Side.

or

Sansa didn't retain her integrity and she certainly didn't gain my respect -- I think she's a weasel who will grow and blossom into the next-generation Littlefinger.

 

The former is a fair assessment (although Cersei was never a mentor to Sansa imo. If anything Margaery was). The later is not. It kind of highlights my thoughts on peoples preference for brute strength vs cunning. Should Sansa be slicing throats? Would that make her a better, more honorable character?

 

And Sansa had already revealed herself as a self-serving liar at the trial (which happened on the Kings Road before they got to KL).

If she was a self-serving liar, she would have defended Joffrey. She didn't. She only said she didn't remember. True neutral. Don't humiliate your future betrothed and don't get your sister in trouble. If anything she was being extremely diplomatic. If you don't believe me, recall Ned talking to Arya. Ned pretty much agreed that she handled it properly and to forgive her for what happened. Sansa wasn't the problem. King's Landing and the political sharks were the problem.
 

She was willing to condemn Arya's innocent wolf to save her dream. It's just desserts that her own wolf paid the price (though not so nice for Lady).

That's not how the scene played out. King Robert just wanted to get to the bottom of what happened. After Sansa said she didn't remember, Robert got up and said some gist of kids-will-be-kids, and tried to leave. THEN Cersei said, "what of the beast who savaged our son?" Only then were the direwolves even brought into the picture. Sansa, Arya, and Ned were all pretty pissed that Cersei convinced the king to order a hit on Lady. Sansa didn't condemn any of the wolves at all. She also had no idea that Cersei would try to go after the wolves.

[ChocButterfly]

Well said, Direwolf! In fact, so far Sansa hasn't done anything bad. Arya has shown more sociopathic doings, with leaving the Hound suffer like that. Granted, he kind of deserved it, but it was cruel, nonetheless. We don't know if Sansa will indeed turn to the Dark Side. She will get better at conniving, and she may have to do some questionable things, but she could still remain a good person, until she gets out of this mess.

 

LF said his marriage proposal had been accepted! Who on earth is he marrying?? Or, or.....could it be...? No I hope not! But what if, if he's actually bethroting Sansa!!! He is now her "uncle" by marriage after all. What if his offering Sansa to the freaking Boltons!!!!!!!! That way, they'd have a legitimate claim to the North. We know who the heir of the Boltons is now.......Ramsey!!! I shudder just thinking about it.