Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[gingerella]

I just assumed that Yara was already at the Moat and that's where she is heading back to. I assume she has more Ironborn there, and she seems like the sort that doesn't desert her men in times of need so yeah, where else would she be coming from/headed back to?

[DemosthenesKey]

I suspect that the Lannisters wouldn't suspect Sansa going to her aunt because said aunt married Littlefinger, a supposed Lannister ally.

[WhiteStumbler]

90%: Tyrion made it to the Wall in season one. Hung out with Yoren and had a nice exchange with Benjen (Benjen WHERE ARE YOU?!?) about if Tyrion was fat and the use of "but".

Gingerella: I don't know where The Moat is, but it sounds wet. Yara came from Pike to rescue Theon (Baylon and her got Theon's "toy" there at the end of last season). Yara's speech at the end of S3 said "I'm going to sail up the Narrow Sea all the way to The Weeping Water. I'm going to march on the Dreadfort" and rescue Theon. I think they sailed all the way around Westeros and up to near The Dreadfort. Maybe they retreated to The Moat afterwards? We don't know, but maybe. Either way there are Iron Islanders there who are holding it, and Ramsay wants to flay them, I'd imagine.

Agree - I want Theon dead as well, but I also want his death to mean something. But it's Theon, so he will probably screw that part of his story up, just like everything else he touches.

[stillshimpy]

I think I'm missing a key piece of information about the Moat, which is completely unsurprising, I actually fast forwarded through that initial scene with Theon.  Found out it wasn't going to involving flaying and then to have it make sense, we immediately doubled back and let it play.  Got to say, that really didn't provide a ton of clarity either.  

 

So I remember Bolton arriving at the Dreadfort, Ramsay showing off his new toy, Theon.  I didn't catch that Iron Islanders were holding it though.  

 

I confess, it doesn't particularly make sense to me that Ramsay would want Theon to pretend to be Regular!Theon (I am not participating in this Reek stuff, Ramsay) for Yara.  I understand that Ramsay exists just to screw with people, but I take it that Ramsay wants to take the Moat.  He believes Yara is there.  He plans on taking it and then pretending it was Theon leading the troupes, specifically to just mess with Yara's mind?  

 

Oh my god, does this world ever need the invention of cable if this is how hard up for entertainment people are.  Learn to play a lute or something, you sicko.  

 

Anyway, okay, joy.  Won't that be splendid?  I just don't appreciate that area of the story because, quite frankly, I don't choose to watch horror movies.  Ramsay belongs on a horror movie set, plus that girl doing the do with him is a pure moron.  Gosh, what are the chances he'll tire of you and feed you to that excessively vicious dog of his? 

 

 

 

Tyrion made it to the wall in season one (or was it two?).

 

It was season One, with Jon Snuh.  They all set off from Winterfell together, Ned bid Jon a permanent adieu and guaranteed it as such by promising to fill Jon in later on information about his actual identity.  Off Ned went to die.  Eventually and horribly, but die he did.  Jon Snuh and party trekked on to the Wall.  Jon was still prone to excessive pouting and bouts of extreme adolescence, so he got his pout on about how, no really, rapists and thieves were sentenced to the Wall.  It wasn't just the Land of People Who Are Better than Other People, So Suck it Cat.  Tyrion was the person who basically told him to extract his head from his butt.  

 

Then he peed off the Wall.  Tyrion.  Not Jon.  Maybe Jon too.  Guys do that sort of thing sometimes. Women probably would too, if we could guarantee our aim, but likely only when drunk.   Probably not Jon though.  He probably pouted that other people were peeing off the sacred Wall.  Eventually he had sex and he now seems to pout substantially less.  Related?  Perhaps.  

Edited May 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

Hmm I thik Ramsay would have a better chance of taking the Moat with Fake!Real!Theon if Yara isn't there, since Yara clearly knows he is beyond help and has theoretically given up on him. He might be able to fool some other Iron Islanders though. I think if Yara IS there and they try to pass THeon off, she's more likely to just kill him, because after what she saw at the Dreadfort, how could you ever trust that he was Real!Theon again?

[Pallas]

It wasn't just the Land of People Who Are Better than Other People, So Suck it Cat.  Tyrion was the person who basically told him to extract his head from his butt. 

Then he peed off the Wall.  Tyrion.  Not Jon.  Maybe Jon too.  Guys do that sort of thing sometimes. Women probably would too, if we could guarantee our aim, but likely only when drunk.   Probably not Jon though.  He probably pouted that other people were peeing off the sacred Wall.  Eventually he had sex and he now seems to pout substantially less.  Related?  Perhaps.

 

Quoting that in whole, just because.  

 

The Land of People Who Are Better than Other People, So Suck It Cat.  I'm not sure, shimpy, but I think you just managed to tell my entire adolescence to extract its head from its butt.  My post-adolescence doffs it hat and pours you grog.  

 

Yes, I think Ramsay has in mind (finally) setting out for the Moat to try to claim it with Real!Theon, while Yara is meanwhile making her sad way back to Rust House. On the other hand, he said "castle with bad men," not wet place.  Then again, what does a moat surround but a castle?  And in the opening credits map, isn't it Rust House on (I guess) one of the Iron Islands that we see connected to the mainland with a little bridge that (adorably) quivers when the CGI "setpiece" extends?  So, the bridge over the moat, behind which Bolton's armies are trapped?  

 

I am trying to care. 

[gingerella]

So, the bridge over the moat, behind which Bolton's armies are trapped?

Pallas, I don't think Bolton's men are holding The Moat, I thought it was Iron Islanders holding it, which is why I assumed if it's closeby, that's where Yara retreated to.  I don't understand why the reigning princess of the Ironborn would abandon her men if they are closeby holding down the Moat, or whatever the hell they're doing...which isn't clear to me because Tywin says the war is over, yet it seems to me that war like maneuvers are still at play around the 7K.  Why would a group of men be "holding the Moat" if they were not protecting it from some other group of men?

 

And yes, I too don't care about Theon anymore. I don't even give a shit about Yara or her cool fireplace mantle. In fact, I have no fucks left to give A Show about anything related to the Iron Islands. I just don't. About the best end result of this shit story line is that Yara kills Theon, then she and Bolton get into it and kill each other.  Then no more Ironborn shenanigans.

Edited May 14, 2014 by gingerella

[DemosthenesKey]

But... but I quite like Yara and her whole Empowered Pirate Queen schtick... :(

Maybe just, all the Greyjoys can die except her and she goes and finds someone else's storyline to cling to? Like Dany's! I don't know what side of the world the Iron Islands are on, but for some reason the image of Yara becoming Dany's Master (Mistress?) of Ships seems appropriate. Just because she'd snark at her SO MUCH.

Oh, and also Reek turns back into Theon in time to kill Ramsay, because I can dream. *dusts hands off* There. Greyjoys! No more Greysad.

[MrMicrophone]

No More GreySad!

 

ginge,

Tywin may:

1) Not give two fucks about the north

2) Not know about this.

3) Consider the Greyjoys Not A Threat to the Realm.

4) Think that bolton has it in hand, and as long as Lannisters aren't needed, the war is over.

[stillshimpy]

. About the best end result of this shit story line is that Yara kills Theon, then she and Bolton get into it and kill each other.  Then no more Ironborn shenanigans.

 

Meanwhile, Invisible!Buffy could flay Ramsay alive thereby finally justifying another annoying storyline from another show.  Whee! 

 

No, seriously, I sort of hope Yara gets to survive.  Not that I necessarily want to hang out with her one my TV screen, but because she is -- by freaking far -- one of the more admirable characters.  Plus, good manners go along way with me and she politely thanked that crumb who took her to the kennels, before slitting his throat, so she even when to the Iron Islands finishing school, clearly.  

 

I'm afraid that there is one way that A Show could get me to contribute a-fuck-giving to Theon's story and it is this: I am very, very much afraid that The Moat has nothing to do with the Iron Islanders and everything to do with the Umbers.  Yes, my "I give a fuck now!" would assert itself if Theon were to get Bran Stark and Osha killed, which is what I think awaits him at The Moat.  Umbers.  

 

Theon is not done peeing on my cheerios, despite his tragic disability, I fear.  

 

I'm not sure, shimpy, but I think you just managed to tell my entire adolescence to extract its head from its butt.

 

Mine too.  Sometimes I talk to my past self.  There's a lot of swearing, inquiring into what I could possibly be thinking and a moment of PTSD involving Seagram's Seven and my discovery of "Oh....so that's a hangover. Blurg."  I was a charmer, I'm telling you. Sounds like we would have gotten along :-) 

Edited May 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

I am very, very much afraid that The Moat has nothing to do with the Iron Islanders and everything to do with the Umbers.  Yes, my "I give a fuck now!" would assert itself if Theon were to get Bran Stark and Osha killed, which is what I think awaits him at The Moat.  Umbers.

Fuck, I think you're right! Damn A Show, I can't remember half the story lines that are going on right now but I think you're right and I am confused...Bolton did want his bastard to go fetch the Stark boys, didn't he?  Is The Moat at Umbers? What the hell is/are Umbers? Are they a clan or a place, I honestly cannot remember...oy.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Fuck, I think you're right! Damn A Show, I can't remember half the story lines that are going on right now but I think you're right and I am confused...Bolton did want his bastard to go fetch the Stark boys, didn't he?  Is The Moat at Umbers? What the hell is/are Umbers? Are they a clan or a place, I honestly cannot remember...oy.

 

The Umbers are a family that was loyal to the Starks.  I doubt they are at the Moat, bc the Moat is being held by the Ironborn - I would think they would have killed anyone left loyal to the Starks, no? So I doubt Rickon/Osha will turn up there, unless it was historically occupied by the Umbers, which, um, I guess might be possible. I think it was just Locke who was directed to get the Stark boys, and he failed spectacularly, heee!!!! Not that anyone knows that yet. Or is likely to find out, come to think on it. Since nobody even caught Locke in the act, and I can't imagine he was sending Ravens back and forth to the Dreadfort.

 

Anyway, I think the Umbers were name dropped during one of Theon's torture sessions, as one of his guesses as to where he was being held. Ramsay said "do I look like an Umber to you?" in response to whatever his guess was. Can't remember off the top of my head what that was.

[stillshimpy]

Bran sent Rickon and Osha to their allies, and I believe the last name was Umber.   I've no reason to believe the Umbers (of the "You're meat is tough enough for me!" missing finger fame) are at The Moat, it's just that Bolton did want Ramsay to go there and I'm very much afraid it as to do with remaining Stark Allies.  

 

Again, it's nothing in the story that's leading me to believe this, gingerella, except that the story went out of its way to talk about the Stark boys and now I live in freaking fear.  Dead Locke found Bran and I'm very much afraid that Ramsay is on the tail of Rickon.  

 

I will have a complete and total fit if Shaggy Dog is in anyway harmed.  I have fucking had it with the Imperiled Direwolves.  

[Snowblack]

I may be wrong, but I thought the Moat was what Yara captured back in Season 2 with all of her ships, while Theon went off the deep end and captured Winterfell.  And then in Season 3, Ramsay sent Theon's Toy with a note telling the Greyjoys to leave the Moat.  And earlier in Season 4, Roose Bolton was pissed because he couldn't get his men past the Moat to the Dreadfort because it was held by the Greyjoys.  And he told Ramsay that he was going to use Theon as a pawn in getting the Greyjoys to relinquish the Moat, except Ramsay ruined his plan.  So now I think Ramsay is trying to fix his screwup by allowing Theon to regain some semblance of humanity (taking baths and stuff) and becoming Reek pretending to be Theon so that he can trade "Theon" to the Greyjoys or pull off some other trickery at the Moat.

 

I have no idea how any of that's going to work.  I would think that since the Moat is south (between the Dreadfort and the Bolton troops), it would be a natural place for Yara to stop.  Whether they try a trojan horse sort of ploy or actually try to trade Theon to the Iron Born for the Moat, I can't imagine any scenario where the reappearance of "Theon" would fool anyone, whether Yara is still there or not.   Can anyone else think of a scenario that might work?

 

And the only potential twists I can see is that Theon actually remembers who he is and kills Ramsay or Roose.  But I don't think we'll get the satisfaction of something like that.  If Theon can actually get into a position of trust with the Greyjoys, he could potentially kill his sister or even his father.  But that would just be stupid.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Snowblack

[Pallas]

Thank you, Snowblack: I'd forgotten that Bolton had planned to trade Theon for the Moat.  All I remember of the Moat was that Bolton said, It traps my troops south of here, it is defended by the Greyjoys, and Ramsay, if you really want to be my son, why don't you go take it.  And bring your thing along; he might prove useful. Meanwhile, Locke, go fetch me the alive dead Stark boys and that other Snow, from Castle Black.  Now I want some dinner and to not sleep with my new wife.  While I recall again, as I do each night, the feel of Catelyn Stark's hand against my cheek when she twigged to what I had in store for her.   

 

So I thought The Moat was in Greyjoy territory.  But if Yara took it from someone...I'm afraid it does sound possible that the "someone" could be Umber.  A Stark bannerman away, serving with Robb.   Ugh.  Now, to all the other reasons to worry, I'm fretting that the one Stark reunion allowed by A Show will be Rickon with Theon, once again.  But then again, the direwolves never forgave Theon his eagerness to kill them as pups.  Ramsay's hound vs. Shaggy Dog Stark?  I'm putting five silver stags on Shaggy Dog in the 9th.  

[DemosthenesKey]

Since everyone's saying how the Ironborn would never believe Reek, how about this spec - the Moat IS held by Northmen, and Ramsay is sending Theon as a representative to basically say, "Look, the Ironborn surrendered and this guy is actually super-great to his prisoners! Treats them like lords he does, with baths and everything!"

That way Reek's storyline isn't immediately cut off (along with his head, probably by Yara if he'd tried that on Ironborn) and he gets to be a little more valued, a little more important... Which will make it all the sweeter when he takes his reveeee.... that'll never happen.

Ooh! Another thing is that Ramsay is apparently into that whole "Surrender! It'll be fun!" thing. Remember that he currently holds Winterfell, right? Or at least took it from Theon. HOW did he take it from Theon? Last we saw of Theon in Winterfell he was getting knocked out by his own men. Men that according to the letter Daddy Greyjoy got, were then skinned alive (against Robb's orders - didn't he say to show mercy to the Ironborn if they gave up Theon, and Daddy Bolton was like #mybannerisaskinneddude #mercy #lolwut).So I'm assuming that the instant they opened the gates Ramsay charged in there like the crazy and vaguely bisexual force of nature and Halloween he is, skinning them all and finding Theon's knocked out body. "Niiiiiiiice! New toy! I was WONDERING how I'd try out my new rack! *giggle*"

Edited May 14, 2014 by DemosthenesKey

[DirewolfPup]

stillshimpy

I will have a complete and total fit if Shaggy Dog is in anyway harmed.  I have fucking had it with the Imperiled Direwolves.  

 

Luckily, this can only happen 6 times. 2 are dead already (Lady & Robb's wolf), and 1 is MIA (Nymeria).  Ghost just met up with Jon again, so she/he'll survive the season maybe. What would Bran do without Summer? She's his whole window to the world

[AlphaLine]

The Moat is held by Iron Islanders - Lord Bolton says this in episode 2. There's no way Rickon or Northmen are anywhere there.

 

The place Yara captures in Season 2 is called 'Deepwood Mott'. ( Not to be confused with 'moat' )

 

The Umbars live in a place called 'Last Hearth'. ( Season 3 episode 9, Bran tells Rickon to go there ). We don't know if they are still there or even exist at this point. There was an Umbar in season 1, but he sort of disappeared. I think he probably died off screen, paving way for Lord Bolton to become Robb's chief advisor.

 

It is conceivable that Northern Bannermen would have held 'Moat Cailin' and 'Deepwood Mott' before the war, but they are certainly not holding it now.

 

As to the status of said Northern Bannermen, there is no indication that those that survived the Greyjoy war, and the Lannister war, and the Red wedding ( if there are any at all ), would be opposed to Lord Bolton. He's not a great person to follow, but it is better than following.. well, no one ( since Bran/Rickon are thought to be dead ). Or Greyjoys.

 

I picture the Moat Cailin to be a strategically placed castle, (with a big moat of course) that geography makes it difficult for armies go around it. Somewhat like the Krak de Chevaliers. Yara is maybe going there, maybe not. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by AlphaLine

[AlphaLine]

I will also agree with posters that I don't really care what happens at the Moat, or Theon, or Iron Islanders.

 

I didn't like the Yara stuff. Firstly, it was very awkwardly laid out, and my suspension of disbelief was strained when Ramsey arrived to the fight naked, and then all the 'badass' iron islanders ran away from 2 dogs. Secondly, I think this scene was supposed to be in episode 3 or something , because the chronology is all wrong. There is no reason why Ramsey is still screwing around in the Dreadfort while his dad commanded him to take Moat Cailin in episode 2. Also, Lord Bolton apparently slept through the whole mess.

 

but that's still not my biggest problem with it. The problem is that..........

 

Boltons = scum

Greyjoys = scum

Stannis = scum

Wildlings = scum

Night's watch = scum ( minus Jon snow and couple others )

The Reeds = scum ( atleast in my opinion )

The Hound = scum

The Brotherhood = scum

Littlefinger = scum

...

 

Simply put, the amount of scum in the show has just spiralled out of control. And a lot of the non-scum ( Bran, Sansa, Davos , Brienne, to some extent Arya ) are useless/helpless, and are not in charge.

That's why a LOT of the conflicts now are just scum vs scum . And it's just hard to root for anyone there. All I'm hoping for is that the scum will kill each other off, but they don't even do that.. Even Ramsey's girlfriend didn't die!

 

Other than King's Landing and Dany, the rest of the storylines aren't very relevant to me because of this reason. 

And even King's Landing is filling up more with scum now ( read: Die! Shae! Die! )

 

I think the problem can be traced back to when they killed all the Starks off. It left the story without a moral background . I wasn't really interested in Robb's story ( from what I can recall, he was too preoccupied with his wife's butt, and had really terrible decision making ). But he was still there, and that counted.

[MrMicrophone]

Alpha,

if the Last Hearth is an actual castle -- maybe the Salt Shore in the south is another? (or maybe, like the riverlands, that's a name for a place...) [i'm getting Carthage flashbacks.]

 

The Karstarks (the guys who left pre-Wedding) probably consider themselves the equals of the Boltons, and still have a considerable amount of troops. With all the trouble Robb had commanding his folk, I can see the Boltons also having trouble. 

[DemosthenesKey]

AlphaLine, I prefer to think of the characters as "morally grey".

Except for the Boltons. Man, f**k the Boltons.

Still:

Greyjoys: Yeah, Daddy Greyjoy is an entitled hypocritical douchebag, but I hold out hope that Melisandre's leech does its job - and if it does, that means Yara is in charge, right? Since all his children are dead or Theon. And I like Yara, as I said before - she's a straight shooter and I don't remember seeing her be needlessly cruel.

Lannisters: I don't care how evil he is, I ENJOY watching Tywin. Scum you say? Scum I'll take so long as that magnificent acting keeps up! And then of course there's Jaime and Tyrion and Tommen (and I'm assuming Cersei's daughter that got put on a boat) for the not-scum Lannisters, and how the Lannisters give us something to cheer for vis a vis Tyrells. Who don't really seem to be scum so much as really smart and patient.

Baratheons: Stannis and Mel and Davos! Melisandre I don't know about - I rather suspect that she THINKS she's doing the right thing, and it's a "means to an end" for her type deal (like how Tywin said something about how it was better to have the Red Wedding and a couple dozen people die than to have a continuing war with thousands dead). Stannis... I get the feeling goes along with some of what Mel says because he knows she has power, and she's a force multiplier for his small-ish army. Stannis himself I don't see as scum, even though I don't like him. I respect him, because he was apparently a great younger brother to Robert during the civil war and got nothing to show for it, and held onto what he'd been told to hold onto tenaciously for WAY longer than could be reasonably expected. I don't think he'd be anything like Robert was as king, but I think he'd be a just king and clean up the corruption. Davos is just clearly good, so I don't have to say anything about him.

Reeds: Going to have to disagree with you on that one, because though I don't like the characters I think it's more a part of how Bran's storyline seems more Traditional Fantasy than the others. Jojen in this case fits the Mysterious Mentor, which I find boring but not really what you'd call "scum".

Brotherhood: I'm... reserving judgement on whether or not they're scum. Their actions speak poorly, but the characters I saw I liked and seemed very Robin Hood-y.

Night's Watch: Also reserving judgement, because if it's the leadership you have a problem with then I feel like the direction the storyline is going is so obvious it can't even be called "speculation", but ah well. (If it wasn't clear: Jon is awarded Commandership of the Watch by Aemon for his defense of the Wall, whenever it happens. If that DOESN'T happen, then I'll be quite surprised and upset, and will join you in declaring the Watch scum of the first order.)

Littlefinger is clearly scum, but if he gets rid of Sansa's Crazy Aunt Lysa like some here have speculated then he shall become scum I deign to watch with glee.

Wildlings: I thought the whole point of last season was to show us that the Wildlings were mostly just people who wanted to move out of the Chillier than usual part of the North - had a few bad eggs and a few good eggs like everyone else.

All of which to say: I think your tone might be a tad pessimistic. Season Three felt like a, "the good guys are going down" season, this one feels like it's the bad guys turn.

Edited May 15, 2014 by DemosthenesKey

[RadiantAerynSun]

Yanno they made Kind of a Big Deal last season about guests being killed with the rat king story in the last ep. I assumed it meant bad stuff in store for the Freys, but we haven't seen them this season AT ALL. So I wonder, who really holds responsibility in the gods' eyes for the RW? The Freys? The Boltons? Or the Lannisters for masterminding it? Should we expect some devastating Rat King style god revenge for the responsible parties? Hmm?

[Llywela]

Yanno they made Kind of a Big Deal last season about guests being killed with the rat king story in the last ep. I assumed it meant bad stuff in store for the Freys, but we haven't seen them this season AT ALL. So I wonder, who really holds responsibility in the gods' eyes for the RW? The Freys? The Boltons? Or the Lannisters for masterminding it? Should we expect some devastating Rat King style god revenge for the responsible parties? Hmm?

It's true. But this show is all about the long game. As in, the seriously, epically LOOOOOOOOONG game. I expect the Freys (and everyone else involved) to get their karmic justice in the end. But I don't expect it to happen any time soon, because that is not how this show rolls.

[stillshimpy]

It's true. But this show is all about the long game. As in, the seriously, epically LOOOOOOOOONG game. I expect the Freys (and everyone else involved) to get their karmic justice in the end. But I don't expect it to happen any time soon, because that is not how this show rolls.

 

I'm expecting it to come up again in the coming seasons.  I mean, look how long Theon's long, slow, entirely horrific "you betrayed people who loved and trusted you, through deceit and because of pride...then you murdered two children, for no other reason than to pretend you were the sort of person who would murder children without a second thought."  

 

So, I've got no doubt the show has something horrible in story for Frey and probably Bolton, but it's likely not going to be swift.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Because justice is best served White Walker-style; cold!

 

OK, I need someone to talk me down. I am convinced either Jaime and/or Tyrion are going to get their dead on soon, and I am hating it! stillshimpy, I think you said recently that Tyrion will be around because he is GRRM's "favorite", and the first thing I thought was the old advice from Faulkner to authors: "Kill your darlings". Having Tyrion die would open up any number of characters in KL to be our entry into that world, new characters to root for, new political ploys to dissect. Tyrion may have (finally) accumulated a critical mass of powerful enemies to "play The Game" any more, and if he isn't playing, what is the point of keeping him alive?

 

Almost as devastating is the thought of Jaime going down. He has done some (HA!) indefensible things, but he is just an amazing character. The actor is KILLING it (rewatch his reaction when Tywin immediately says "done" to his offer to leave the Kingsguard), but the character is just the sort that Mel would hate (a part-bad potato is a rotten potato) and I love.

[DemosthenesKey]

My private hope is that Ramsay does something stupid like declare independence from the Lannisters, and then Big Bolton has to go along with it, so the North declares independence and then Jaime goes out putting down rebellions in a way we can all root for. Only problem is that I feel like Ramsay's not actually stupid, which is worrying.

Like I said, though, I feel this season is the Season of Justice for Bad Guys, so if anyone dies I expect it to be another of the Bad Lannisters (I almost typed "one of the Bad Lannisters" and then realized that Joffrey had died. Then I smiled.) - Cersei and/or Tywin. It'd be interesting to see Jaime in a leadership role (though I suppose the Tyrells would then have the true power, peeving Cersei or Tywin to no end). Tyrion I just can't see dying, though. People say that Dany or Arya or Jon is the main character, I think he is. He's the best at the ACTUAL Game of Thrones, not the playing with soldiers that Dany does, the water-dancing Arya does, or Jon's newfounded lack of pout.

[Snowblack]

Because justice is best served White Walker-style; cold!

 

OK, I need someone to talk me down. I am convinced either Jaime and/or Tyrion are going to get their dead on soon, and I am hating it! stillshimpy, I think you said recently that Tyrion will be around because he is GRRM's "favorite", and the first thing I thought was the old advice from Faulkner to authors: "Kill your darlings". Having Tyrion die would open up any number of characters in KL to be our entry into that world, new characters to root for, new political ploys to dissect. Tyrion may have (finally) accumulated a critical mass of powerful enemies to "play The Game" any more, and if he isn't playing, what is the point of keeping him alive?

 

Almost as devastating is the thought of Jaime going down. He has done some (HA!) indefensible things, but he is just an amazing character. The actor is KILLING it (rewatch his reaction when Tywin immediately says "done" to his offer to leave the Kingsguard), but the character is just the sort that Mel would hate (a part-bad potato is a rotten potato) and I love.

Whitestumbler, I'm right there with you.  I feel like one of them has to die, and either option is unthinkable.  I love Jaime.  I love Tyrion.  I think the series will be diminished if it loses either of them.  The one consolation I have is the feeling that whichever of them dies, I don't think Tywin is far behind.  I don't know if his death will be a direct consequence of the trial and its fallout.  But I feel certain it's going to happen, and I hope it happens soon.  I will miss Charles Dance though.

[abelard]

What's weird is that after so many seasons of hating all the Lannisters but Tyrion, I now can't bear the thought of any Lannister going down - except Cersei!!!  I want Cersei to GO.  I have HAD IT with her.  But every other Lannister left (including Tommen!!), I want to stick around.  The only Lannister character I like is Tyrion, but the Lannister actors (Jaime, Tywin) are just some of the best anywhere, on film or TV.  

[Llywela]

OK, I need someone to talk me down. I am convinced either Jaime and/or Tyrion are going to get their dead on soon, and I am hating it! stillshimpy, I think you said recently that Tyrion will be around because he is GRRM's "favorite", and the first thing I thought was the old advice from Faulkner to authors: "Kill your darlings". Having Tyrion die would open up any number of characters in KL to be our entry into that world, new characters to root for, new political ploys to dissect. Tyrion may have (finally) accumulated a critical mass of powerful enemies to "play The Game" any more, and if he isn't playing, what is the point of keeping him alive?

But 'kill your darlings' doesn't refer to characters, favourite or otherwise - it refers to passages of text that the author has written and loves but which don't serve the story and must be cut out for the sake of the overall piece.

 

I have lost the ability to predict who is likely to live or die on this show. My default is to expect everyone to die eventually, and then be pleasantly surprised when they survive particularly hair-raising scenarios.

[MrMicrophone]

Llyw,

I'm pretty sure that was the point of killing Ned. To show that Plot Armor doesn't Exist in this World.

(now, some people think that Tyrion still has Plot Armor (or Author Favoritism-based Armor)).

[DirewolfPup]

Noooo!!! Don't kill Cersei! Who's going to brood behind a glass of wine?  We used to have Tyrion and Robert as the winos, but Tyrion has straightened out a bit. Robert... well, you know.

 

Cersei is our last drunken, angry aristocrat. I would hate to loose the snark and sass she gives. Plus, a true punishment for her would be to see the consequences of Tyrion, Tywin or Jamie dying. Any one of the three would out-right ruin a good chunk of her cozy life. Who would she despise the most and blame all her problems on if she didn't have Tyrion around? Who would ensure that the kingdom doesn't fall to ruin if Tywin dies? She would discover right quick that she doesn't have the know-how to run a kingdom at all. Who would be her confidant and loyal servant if Jamie bit it? I want to see her unravel, because I'm evil.

[MrMicrophone]

Dire,

You're an interesting evil, at that. To me, it's just that Cersei doesn't seem the type to commit suicide,

and it's Tyrion who is in Trouble Now. The only way Cersei could die...

would be if she tried to kill Tyrion and Jaime came to Tyrion's rescue.

Wow, what a hideous, warped tableau

Worthy of Tywin's get.

[RadiantAerynSun]

Haha okay now I kind of want to see Tywin die just to see what a mess Cersei would make of things if she TRULY had the reins. She was in charge when Joffrey had Ned excuted, so that oughta be real interesting. Maybe that was foreshadowing when Davos suggested the possibility to the Iron Bank that none of the remaining Lannisters would be competent to rule a kingdom after Tywin dies and that it might clear the way for Stannis. Except maybe Tyrion - who, if he survives this, probably won't be given the opportunity to have real power in KL again anyway. (Not if Cersei lives).

 

Maybe the Lannisters really will be toppled, leaving KL ripe for Stannis to pick. And then, NORTHWARD! Gosh, did I just join Team Stannis?

[WhiteStumbler]

Welcome aboard! Screw those other deities, Team Stannis worships The Lord of Light, a can-do god who Gets Shit Done. Oh, the occasional blood sacrifice might be required, but there is a big upside. And look at Stannis! He is a proven battle leader, in his prime, in fighting trim, with solid hooves, err, feet, clear eyes, and good teeth. Team Stan also gets Ser Davos, the faithfulest knight to ever say "kah-niggit". Plus Shireen, who seems like a pretty cool kid, and Mel, who is a pretty hot priestess.

#TeamStannis4evah

#BendTheKneeOrBeDestroyed

[Snowblack]

There are four episodes left this season, and I've been thinking what could happen between now and the end.

 

I don't think there will be much more substantive action for Dany, but I think the inevitable discovery of Jorah's spying may take place, thanks to Varys' little birds.  And she might get her groove on with Daario, even though I can't imagine why she would go there.

 

In the north, I don't think Bran will reach his destination, even though he may make some interesting discoveries or have a vision that predicts some real excitement for next season (as Mel did at the end of last season *ahem*).  I still think Jojen will die before the season ends, and it's possible that Bran will find someone else to join his entourage (Benjen, please).  Especially if Meera also dies. 

 

I think Arya is indefinitely treading water.  She learns and her character develops, but there's not much substantive action.  There is the likelihood that the increased bounty on the Hound will get them into some tough scrapes (and may get the Brotherhood after them again), but it's really just more of the same.  My only hope is that they run into Brienne and Pod.  Because as cute as Podranne are together, I can only stomach so much more of them.  If that were to happen, I think the Hound would meet his end.

 

As for Sansa, I'm hoping that she gets that second opportunity to send someone plummeting to their death, and she takes it this time.  I don't know whether that will be Little Finger, Lysa or both.  My fingers are crossed for both. :) I'm hoping she doesn't sacrifice herself in the process.  I would so dearly love for her to stop being passive, although it has served her well so far.  I don't want her to waste away at the Aerie, trapped by LF and crazy Aunt Lysa.

 

I think we're going to get our Wildling - Night's Watch showdown before the season is out.  I don't know how the Night's Watch can previal against the sheer numbers Mance Rayder has assembled.  Earlier in the season, I had some hope that Stannis and his men would get to the wall, perhaps with the Brotherhood, to help the Night's Watch.  At this point, I don't see that happening before this first (and maybe final) engagement.  At the same time, I don't think they're going to kill Jon Snow yet.  So it will be interesting to see how the battle goes and what the outcomes are, particularly for Sam, Gilly and Ygritte.  I hope Sam grabs Gilly and runs!  I would like to see the Night's Watch and the Wildlings fight the WW together.  The only way that's likely is if the Wildlings get trapped between the wall and an army of WW zombies.

 

I don't know what will happen at Moat Caitlin, and I don't think it's important to the larger story.  I hope the Boltons get whacked by the Iron Born, but I don't think it will be that simple.  I would like the Iron Born to remain a problem for the Boltons.  Maybe if we're lucky, the Boltons will be unsuccessful at Moat Cailin and will enlist the Freys to assist them against the Greyjoys. :)  We need dead Freys, even if that's unlikely to happen this season.

 

In King's Landing, I think the Lannister family is about to implode.  Either Tyrion or Jaime will die, and Tywin may follow soon after.  What that means for King Tommen and Cersei is a mystery.  I doubt Margaery will have the opportunity to marry a third king before all hell breaks loose.   Ooooh, one wild spitball...what if Loras dies in the duel, and Tywin marries Cersei to Oberyn to solidify that alliance?  That would definitely throw a wrench in things.

[abelard]

Cersei is our last drunken, angry aristocrat. I would hate to loose the snark and sass she gives. Plus, a true punishment for her would be to see the consequences of Tyrion, Tywin or Jamie dying. Any one of the three would out-right ruin a good chunk of her cozy life. Who would she despise the most and blame all her problems on if she didn't have Tyrion around? Who would ensure that the kingdom doesn't fall to ruin if Tywin dies? She would discover right quick that she doesn't have the know-how to run a kingdom at all. Who would be her confidant and loyal servant if Jamie bit it? I want to see her unravel, because I'm evil.

 

Ha!  I would totally love to see Cersei just completely wrecked on the shores of her family's ruin.  You're right, I'll take that in lieu of her (soonish) demise.

 

Maybe the Lannisters really will be toppled, leaving KL ripe for Stannis to pick. And then, NORTHWARD! Gosh, did I just join Team Stannis?

 

I really think this may happen, partly b/c this author would love for us to have spent YEARS wondering why the heck Stannis has stayed in this story as long as he has, and then to have Stannis unexpectedly, swiftly, become King!!!!  It would be an amazing turnaround.  I remember after Blackwater, I was surprised as all f**k to even see Stannis again.  In any other story, the defeat at Blackwater would have just been the end of that dude's storyline.  But nope, we got Stannis and the Red Woman and the fire visions in the very next episode.  There is definitely more of his story that the author wants to tell.

[DemosthenesKey]

That's actually another reason why I'm #TeamStannis. :PThe guy is just SO freakin' determined, it's a little ridiculous. It's pretty much his defining characteristic, that he just doesn't give up. I can actually picture Dany having come across the sea (like THAT'LL ever happen) with her dragons, now full grown. Stannis just looks up at them, and gives a frustrated little sigh, and then starts thinking about how to fight them. Surrendering? What's that? Nope. Not doing it. I'm not saying he'd win that hypothetical fight. I think he'd get his ass toasted for his trouble. I just think that Stannis would draw his sword against three dragons without a second thought, because the man is (I suspect) the literal embodiment of determination. I don't care if he's a douche, I don't care if he uses blood magic (not like his enemies haven't done FAR worse), I don't even care if he has the personality of a lobster. A King who'd name a good man like Davos as his Hand can't be all bad.And that's another thing! He named Davos his Hand! DAVOS, a man from the extremely lower-class end of the streets of King's Landing! How many other contenders for the throne would even consider naming someone who wasn't a noble to be a member of their small council, much less as their second in command! And when Davos mentioned how the other lords might not like it, Stannis said then he'd make new lords, because Davos stuck by him when all of the so-called "nobles" went over to Renly's side because he was charming and gay (no not like that shut up) and merry, and Stannis... wasn't. For someone who at first seemed like a caricature of the Zealot Nobleman, he's awfully proletariat what with his smuggler right hand and his ex-slave high priestess...So, that's why I like Stannis. Apologies for the rant. :)

On another, unrelated note - my computer doesn't seem to like posting anything but a massive block of text, and it won't let me edit it right now. Apologies to all those I'm making squint at their screen.

[AlphaLine]

Yeah, I liked Stannis in season 2. He was all right. But after the battle of blackwater he really lost me.

Since then he has generally been pouting, scowling, burning people, threatening Davos and generally acting like an ass. Also he is totally under the thumb of the red woman.

[stillshimpy]

don't care if he's a douche, I don't care if he uses blood magic (not like his enemies haven't done FAR worse),

 

Robb Stark did far worse?  I disagree with that.  

[Pallas]

Stannis has to get his licks in before he is called to account for his sins.  I just don't know if he'll do so as King or not.  I kind of like the symmetry of Stannis and Margaery (two people who otherwise don't belong in the same universe) each being thwarted in his or her righteous designs on the throne.  Face down dragons?  I want to see Stannis stare down zombonies, spare the zomponies and snatch babies from White Walkers.  And he'd do it, or (chorus please) die trying.  Stannis and the Night's Watch?  Stannis is the Night's Watch.  Just as Dany someday will head to Westeros, I believe that Stannis someday will head to the Wall.  Maybe on the back of a giant crustaceon.  It will have to happen fairly soon, because even if Mance is moving at a glacial pace,  this will otherwise have been the season of no battles but Dany's panty raids in Essos.   

 

But then I really like the idea that the story could turn on a dime, and Stannis become King upon the death of Tywin.  What happens to Tommen, in that case? Does Jaime became the Kingsaver, escaping with his son to Casterly Rock, leaving Cersei to do her Bertha Rochester from the flaming parapets?   What about Tyrion: will Oberyn offer him sanctuary in Dorne, or will Varys see him safely out of the city?  Or do Jaime and Tyrion team up as the latest odd couple road show: the Lovable Lannister Lads on the Lam?  

Edited May 17, 2014 by Pallas

[abelard]

But then I really like the idea that the story could turn on a dime, and Stannis become King upon the death of Tywin.  What happens to Tommen, in that case? Does Jaime became the Kingsaver, escaping with his son to Casterly Rock, leaving Cersei to do her Bertha Rochester from the flaming parapets?   What about Tyrion: will Oberyn offer him sanctuary in Dorne, or will Varys see him safely out of the city?  Or do Jaime and Tyrion team up as the latest odd couple road show: the Lovable Lannisters on the Lam?

 

I like the idea that only Tywin would have to die, really, for the Lannister hold on KL and the throne to totally fall apart.  Though Tyrion also would have to be out of the equation as he has proven adequate at fending off Stannis attacks (Stanattacks? Stanttacks?) in the past -- but Tyrion could be already on the lam when Tywin gets "his" (please Oberyn, please!!).  

 

If Tywin goes and Tyrion isn't around to lead a KL defense, then yeah, Lannisters are toast.  Stannis could come in and just put all remaining Lannisters under house arrest, for all he cares. He's basically had his daughter under house arrest for her whole life.  Tommen would be stripped of his title but allowed to live, I think.  Cersei too.  And why would Stannis care about Jaime, who has absolutely zero claim to the throne?  Stannis would just keep them in the Red Keep till they turn grey.  Without Tywin, they're all nothing.  But Oberyn would have to zero out Tywin, for sure (oooh - or what if Tyrion kills his own father?!?  Maybe if Jaime engineers Tyrion's escape, it would be Tyrion's last act before leaving KL?).

[DemosthenesKey]

Shimpy, I was referring to his living enemies - although Robb Stark certainly wasn't perfect, and it's arguable that he killed more people indirectly than Stannis ever has. In my mind the whole thing would've worked out wonderfully if he hadn't tried to separate the North from the rest of the kingdom, which is (if I understand it rightly) the only reason Stannis considered him an enemy.

Renly I think would've made a wonderful king in peacetime, and a terrible one in war. Just like Loras told him wayyyyy back when, he can't stand the sight of or the thought of blood, and in the hard lands of this Game that's kind of a requirement.

The only other Stanemies I can think of are Balon Greyjoy (dick who's definitely done worse) and Tywin Lannister (orchestrated the Red Wedding, which I think is a whole degree up from shadow-babies). I suppose you could count Dany, but as she seems to be heading down a Crazy Targaryen path I don't know...

[AlphaLine]

Tywin didn't orchestrate the Red Wedding.

It was Frey's plan ( or maybe Bolton's ) and Tywin just went along with it and said yea I'm fine go ahead.

 

Speaking of which, where are the Freys now, and Tullys? Seems like their only purpose in the story was the Red Wedding, and now they don't matter.

[DemosthenesKey]

I thought it was pretty obvious from all the letters Tywin was writing through all of Season 3 that he was basically negotiating with Frey to get him to betray Robb, and that it worked like a dream. After all, Tywin offered him everything he ever wanted...

I don't know when we'll see Frey again, though, but Bolton and his Bastard seem to be our window into the North at present.

[Pallas]

I think we've figured out how Stannis is the missing link.  We've been aware that Tywin has to go, and soon, to unclog the King's Landing power lines; most of us sense that Tyrion's days in the story aren't over, but his day in King's Landing is done, and for all of Dinklage's over-acting in the trial rant, he sure gave us to understand that Tyrion has, well, (as he put it about Lysa)...changed.   He is deadly, and his enemy is Tywin, and his ally is Jaime.  Meanwhile, The Most Centered Man in Westoros laid out for us and the Iron Bank of Braavos how Tywin's death would open the doors for Stannis.  

 

And you're right, shimpy: Tyrion was great in the first defense of King's Landing, but Cersei and the rest of the Small Council were useless.  Plus, it doesn't look to me as if anyone in King's Landing has anything to fight for except personal salvation.  it's really only Tywin and Cersei who cared about Cersei's children on the throne. No one likes Stannis, but no one thinks he's dissolute, insane or underage, and everyone believes he has a just claim.  If Stannis offers amnesty to the city, those doors might just open all on their own.  Maybe even with an assist from Jaime, on his way out of town.  "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

[WhiteStumbler]

Assuming Tyrion figures a way to avoid execution and escape imprisonment (even writing that seems hopelessly optimistic), the map of the sewers and tunnels underneath KL would make a nice parting gift to Stannis as he f@cked off out of town.

Nah, Tyrion's beef is with Tywin and Cersei. If Varys is the key that helps free Tyrion, Varys would consider any assistance to The Red Priestess and her king as a betrayal.

[stillshimpy]

Agreed, Pallas. I think Stannis might actually make for a better leader when held in contrast to Joffrey.  However, I wouldn't count the Lannisters out entirely even if Tywin bites it and it would seem likely.   Hell, Davos the Power Structure Exposition Fairy went out of his way to outline for us why King's Landing would be imperiled if anything happens to Tywin.  That's practically a neon arrow of "something is likely to happen to Tywin".  

 

I can't quite figure out a way that Arya is likely to kill him this season though, so perhaps Tywin will die another day and by the Needle.  Or maybe the Iron Bank, having seen the wisdom of Davos order just freaking sends a faceless man to retire their bad debt?  

 

But there are two problems with Stannis as King for the people of the Seven Kingdoms.  One is that Viserys wasn't wrong, a truly successful or "good" king has to at least give the appearance of deeply caring about the people.  See: Everything that Stannis is and isn't for why that's a problem.  Stannis looks more than vaguely dyspeptic whenever anything approaching affection is introduced to his system.  Note: He looks like he feels the urge to pass a stone every time he's anywhere near Mireen.  

 

The second problem is, of course, Melisandre, who is full of crap at her best and a sadistic witch at her worst.  I also think she frequently just bewitches Stannis.  Oh, and she likes to burn people.  Alive, as if the burning part wasn't bad enough.  So that's REALLY not going to endear him to the populace and if nothing else, the Brotherhood Without Bankrolls will likely at least take some offense if Melisandre gets her burn on with too many common people.  That is despite the fact that they seem to fancy themselves in the service to the Lord of Light. 

 

Oooooooh.....wouldn't it be wild if they burned Tywin?!?  It's just the entire thing with Aerys going bonkers and burning people all over the place seemed to start more wars than it ended, so there's that problem with Good King Stannis (who I still think it a freaking hypocrite and I'm no fan).  

[AlphaLine]

I don't see anything good about Stannis now, I really don't. We know Davos thinks the world of him, but well, Davos is delusional. Everything he says is exactly opposite to what Stannis actually does.

 

Why they did that fake out 'going to the wall' thing last season is really beyond me too. It did not serve any purpose really, except to show that Stannis does exactly what Melisandre says. 'We're going to the wall' - ok. 'Don't kill Davos, I need a scapegoat around'- Done. 'We're not really going to the wall' - Sure.

 

Some expectations from next episode:

 

King's Landing: Trial by combat!

Arya and co. - meet Brienne

The Uruk hai attack Mole's town ( long overdue now ). Jon and Sam rescue Gilly but everyone else gets eaten.

Moat Cailin something = Don't care ( scum vs scum, so whatever )

Stannis returns to Dragonstone and plans his next move.

Dany gets a letter. Poor Jorah gets outed.

[DemosthenesKey]

Ah, but we can't forget our other lovable plotlines! So!

- Bran & Co. (sounds like a cereal manufacturer..) move five miles northward. Hodor says Hodor. Jojen is mysterious, Meera and Bran are sassy at each other because Dramatic Tension or something.

- Littlefinger and Sansa ask each other what love really is. Sansa says baby don't hurt me. Lysa hurts her. Littlefinger kills Lysa with a complicated plot involving live robins, the gardens of the castle, and one actual herring.

[Snowblack]

I'm confident Oberyn will kill the Mountain.  But I don't know what that would mean for Jaime and Tyrion.  I guess Jaime doesn't have to uphold his promise if Tyrion doesn't need to be spared.  So Tyrion really does screw Tywin if Oberyn wins.  But poor Tyrion...he'll be despised by the powers that be in King's Landing and his father is unlikely to give him any more financial support.  I kind of doubt he'll just go back to being the Master of Coin.  So what are his options?  They don't look promising.  Unless Varys wants to give Tyrion that bag of diamonds he offered Shae. :)