Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[abelard]

Snowblack and Pallas: IA with Snowblack that some younger sons must have been told, or opted, to go on the Maester path - Luwin and Pycelle both seemed fairly "to the manor born," just in their demeanor, so I'm thinking third or fourth sons.  But I also agree with Pallas that Oberyn probably didn't go study the poisons course en route to becoming a Maester.  I think maybe nobility (or royalty in the Dorne case) can sort of go and study at the Conservatory/Institute/Hogwarts just for a term or two, to supplement all their swordfighting and horseriding education.  Oberyn has indeed done some fascinating things with his life so far and is bound to do at least two more (1) vote in Tyrion's trial, 2) KILL TYWIN LANNISTER YEAH!! [<-- pure spec on my part]).  It seems very highly strange that he would have purposely gone and studied poisons.  Why do that, unless you want to be a poisoner?!? Well, I guess the poisons course could be part of a larger medicinal training course - and then, actually, I can think of a reason why Oberyn would take it: he took the Drugs: How to Make and Use Them course.  Poisons are just one way drugs can go, but hallucinogens and aphrodisiacs are some others, I can totally see him being into all of that.  

[Snowblack]

Wow that was a long time ago. I thought Luwin said he took the course himself, but later realized magic was gone from the world.

 

Yes, that's what Lewin said.  That many boys were enchanted with the concept and tried their hands at it, but none succeeded in actually performing any magic.  It's a shame that Lewin died before realizing that the ebb and flow of magic in this world appears to be cyclical, and he was witnessing its re-emergence. 

[Snowblack]

I'm so disheartened because I think Jaime is going to give his life to save Tyrion's.  It seems like his story is complete.  He sent off Brienne with his Valyrian sword and a vow to fulfill his promise.  He finally sees Cersei for exactly what she is.  And he has promised to toe the line and di his father's bidding if Tyrion lives.  So what is left for him, other than death?  And what a perfect ending to his redemption arc for him to give his life for Tyrion's.  It seems to me that he would be the crown's champion, as the Lord Commander of the King's Guard.  My only hope is that Tywin will not allow him to fight and will name someone else champion. 

[abelard]

I'm so disheartened because I think Jaime is going to give his life to save Tyrion's.  It seems like his story is complete.  He sent off Brienne with his Valyrian sword and a vow to fulfill his promise.  He finally sees Cersei for exactly what she is.  And he has promised to toe the line and di his father's bidding if Tyrion lives.  So what is left for him, other than death?  And what a perfect ending to his redemption arc for him to give his life for Tyrion's.  It seems to me that he would be the crown's champion, as the Lord Commander of the King's Guard.  My only hope is that Tywin will not allow him to fight and will name someone else champion. 

I love this interpretation of Jaime's path, I think that I could be satisfied with this as Jaime's arc.  

 

To your spec I will add this Shakespearean prediction:

 

-Jaime dies in the trial, Tyrion goes free.

-Cersei, enraged by the loss of both Joffrey and Jaime, kills Tyrion brutally in public, in a blind rage

-The guards guarding Tyrion kill Cersei, despite Tywin's orders to stay their hands

 

And with that, Tywin's dream of a thousand-year Lannister Reich dies.  Tommen weds Margery and the throne falls under the Tyrells' control.  The throne is weak and not ready for Stannis's attack.

Edited May 12, 2014 by abelard

[gingerella]

Lots of great spitballing here and dayum abelard,great spitballing above, though I hope we arent done with Jamie just yet, and certainly not Tyrion either. Cersei can fuck off any time now though, she, I would be happy to see bite it at this point.

The most awful part of tonight's epi was the all time low of degrading Tyrion. It still boggles me that Tywin cannot or will not see that Tyrion is the braintrust legacy of the hallowed Lannister name. I kept thinking that if Tyrion lives long term in A Show, then what will his motivation and direction be from this point forward because although his family treate him like shit, and he has always complained about it, I think it was in the trial that he realized what utter bullshit his kin are and I would love to see him both live, and stick it to the Lannister clan in the end.

[stillshimpy]

I wonder if Tywin Lannister truly thinks Tyrion is not actually his son?  It's just difficult to imagine he'd rather see his son, dwarf or not, convicted of killing the king. 

 

I still have hope that Jaime's golden hand means he's going to end of the Hand to the King.  Admittedly, Davos attempts to persuade the Iron Bank pretty much succeeded in persuading me, that division of the crown is in serious trouble if Tywin Lannister isn't there to guide them.  Cersei is despised, the people believe she was the person who had babies slaughtered and whereas this world forgives a lot, that's one that shocked even them.  Worse than being despised, she really isn't as smart as she thinks she is when it comes to strategy.  Robert and his Five and One conversation with her showed that. 

 

By the way, Stannis Baratheon in no way deserves Davos.  Maybe he did at one point, but I don't think he does any longer.  It's almost a pity because technically Stannis is the rightful king.  

 

Meanwhile, across the sea, Dany is learning that there's more to ruling than rocking a blue dress.  It's like she's getting her Monarch training wheels across the sea. 

[DirewolfPup]

My Spitball from April 21st in this very thread

Huge Spitball Alert!!

Okay. How is Tyrion going to get out of this? If he could talk his way into trial by combat, he should call out Brienne of Tarth. She's all honor and servitude, so she'd comply no question. Then the challenger to vouch for Cersei would be.... Jamie. Tyrion is the only one who knows he can't fight. Jamie would loose, Tyrion would be free, and Jamie would have shift on his face :)

 

Ahhhhh! I was semi-right about something! One right speculation makes up for about ten wrong guesses, right? Granted Brienne is long gone. Maybe Loras? He's a great fighter who's been doing nothing lately.

 

I do like some of the speculation in the episode thread about how Jamie would fight for Tyrion and still win because of his training with Bronn. That would make a more tense scene since we, the audience, are the only ones besides Bronn and Tyrion that know he's weak right now. Everyone else thinks Jamie is still a sword wizard.

Edited May 12, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[DemosthenesKey]

I just want to start a full on Fight Club Westeros betting pool, where champions from the Seven Kingdoms (plus the Riverlands) and Dany-land (whatever the heck that continent's called) do battle.

Nobody wins, of course, because it's Game of Thrones. But hey, we can still have fun watching!

First match - Dead Ned Stark versus Dead Khal Drogo. Any takers?

(Ooh. I suppose a second match could be Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister versus Bronn, son of You've Probably Never Heard of Him. That'd be more relevant.)

Edited May 12, 2014 by DemosthenesKey

[RadiantAerynSun]

:/ I am worried for Jaime just because it WOULD seem a fitting end to his arc, he is getting a lot of "closure" lately. I guess if he died nobly to save Tyrion I would be O.K. with that but still very sad... I'm not sure what else he will do in this story if he were to continue on. Unless both brothers somehow wind up sent to the Wall.

 

I wish Davos was in Dany's corner!

[Pallas]

I wish Davos were in my corner!

 

But can we give Stannis a few props here?  He not only won the undying loyalty of a smuggler he maimed, but also saw in that smuggler the qualities to become his top aide, despite his flea-bitten background and rough profession.  That's something, and not a trait Stannis shares with too many on Westeros. His other top adviser is a lowborn woman, though it's more than a pity that it should be Melisandre.  And, he loves and protects his disfigured daughter.  Whatever else Stannis is, he's not a feckless snob, comfortable only within a cocoon of courtiers.

 

I'd love to see what Stannis would have made of the pack of self-servers that Robert was content to have run his kingdom for him, from the Small Council.  Maybe that was one reason Robert kept Stannis semi-exiled on Dragonstone.  Maybe Stannis reminded Robert too much of the man Ned believed that Robert once was.

[Snowblack]

Ahhhhh! I was semi-right about something! One right speculation makes up for about ten wrong guesses, right? Granted Brienne is long gone. Maybe Loras? He's a great fighter who's been doing nothing lately.

 

I like that.  What if Cersei manages to get Loras named as the Crown's champion?  If he loses, Tyion goes free, but she doesn't have to marry Loras anymore.  I don't think she's clever enough to do that, but I would love it if she did.  In any case, I think we'll end up with a duel where we don't want either party to lose. 

 

Were we supposed to recognize the man who was sitting next to Loras?  Or is he just an extra occupying a seat of honor? 

[MrMicrophone]

Pallas,

Yeah, Stannis sees people's true value and nature better than most, for all that he's a stickler for "truth"

[Pallas]

Loras, the Queen-Regent's betrothed, makes great sense as her champion, against Jaime. If Littlefinger is to believed about this one thing, we know that Loras has defeated a fully-abled Jaime at least once before, in the infamous Knifey Tournament.  

 

Loras, more than any Lannister, seems to have no further purpose in the story: No viewer -- hell, not Sansa at her most naive -- can believe that Cersei and Loras are endgame.  Not in any sense other than the Game of Thrones' favorite parsing of that term.  

[stillshimpy]

I wish Davos were in my corner!

 

No kidding, Davos kicked ass.   I confess, when he was originally missing-in-action I didn't understand why people seemed to care that Davos was unaccounted for after the battle.  Now I get it and have since last season.  Rare character on this show who does nothing but improve with a longer acquaintance!  

 

He'll probably die soon, because that tends to be the fate of good guy, likable sorts, but he's fun so I will cling to the hope that he'll get to live. 

 

Pallas, it's also a fair point that Stannis recognized worth in him, but frankly the fact that Davos sees so much is Stannis is what makes me give Stannis a second look, not anything having to do with Stannis  The entire time I've known Stannis he's either been having his own brother killed by black magic, attempting to kill his brother's only surviving child to aid with more black magic and threatening to have Davos killed, pretty much constantly.  

 

I don't think Davos is terrified of death, but Stannis still doesn't really see his worth when every freaking time I turn around that "time is running out for you" clip is played.  I still hope Stannis is just bewitched at this point, but seeing as I seldom ever get to see anything that suggests there is another side to him, on top of everything else, the guy who Davos just sold as King to the Iron Bank keeps threatening to kill Davos.  Why?  Because Davos wouldn't allow him to have Gendry ritualistically murdered to gain the throne via Melisandre's magical vaginal canal or whatever is supposed to happen when Gendry was murdered.  

 

So I'm pretty far from giving Stannis much credit, but I do think that the otherwise excellent Davos might have a bit of a blind spot for Stannis and is WAY too forgiving of Stannis's tendency to threaten Davos with execution.  

 

Remember before Ned was skewered in street like a particularly dour kabob?  The last time Ned saw Robert, Robert was threatening to kill Ned and even Renly said there was just no way, because Robert was known to adore Ned.  Serious pain in the ass though Ned was, Robert gave Ned back the Hand pin (instead of killing him, which he never really intended to do...witnessed by Ned being able to pack up his household to head back North) ...turned his back on the Lannisters pretty definitively.  

 

Robert sucked as a King, but at least he was capable of affection that bred loyalty.  Stannis apparently isn't.  A dispassionate stickler for the rules doesn't make a better ruler, as witnessed by Dany understanding that she needed to let that man bury his father and compensate the goat herd.  In the "who would make a fit ruler" races, Dany is winning as far as I'm concerned and Stannis is a boil on the butt of the story thus far.  Even Tywin's "what makes a good king?"  or Viserys understanding that a ruler must also be loved and revered takes into account that a ruler needs the affection of the people.  

 

Stannis has inspired Davos's affection, but it is at least a little baffling that he has.  Half the time I wonder if Davos isn't perhaps trying to get Stannis on the throne to help justify the loss of his own son to the cause, but whatever it is that Davos sees in Stannis is not visible to me and it seemingly baffles others in the story.  

Edited May 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

If Davos's plan is to have the pirates steal the gold, I'm not sure how that works. I doubt the gold being stolen would absolve Blandis of having to repay the debt.

[stillshimpy]

I don't think the pirate was being paid to steal the gold.  I think the pirate was being paid to rejoin Stannis's fleet and to help transport supplies back to Dragonstone.  

[arry the orphan]

I agree with whomever said, that the Bank of Bravos is hedging its bet just in case Stannis will win this war. They are probably still supporting Tywin as well. So, stealing gold that was already handed over to Stannis doesn't make much sense. However Davos could hire the pirates to stop Tywin from repaying the Bank. If Tywins gold transports can't reach Bravos, they might reconsider their support for him.

[AlphaLine]

Stannis in this episode:

 

+He didn't threaten to burn the bank down for not being Lord of light followers

+He didn't offer to sell slaves in Westeros ( which was my prediction ). Given that all the Lord of Light followers are really into buying and selling people, I figured that was his next logical step.

 

- Come on, it's Stannis. He has that scowl on his face. On the boat, and again in the bank. Is the actor incapable of any other emotion?

- Man has no dress sense. How is anyone supposed to take ppl seriously when they turn up looking like that. No crown, no rich heraldric coats, no ceremonial armor, weapons, jewelry. He looks like a beggar, which ironically, is exactly what he is.

- Davos is loyal to Stannis because - look away! < insert plot hole > . The iron bank gives Stannis money because - look away! < insert plot hole >. What deal did they make and why? Who knows. They made a big song and dance about the iron bank but in the end it's just a plot device that gives you money. Cause nothing about it makes any kind of sense. They could have replaced this BS with Davos going on a treasure hunt with a pirate map that has X marks the spot and that would have been more interesting.

[Pallas]

Beautiful analysis of the Baratheon Brothers, shimpy, and what you cite as a ruler's need to inspire affection as well as devotion in his or her people.  Or perhaps, devotion partly inspired by affection.  But Davos seems to truly love as well as honor Stannis for his character, not his charisma...a love perhaps only Ned ever offered to Robert, and came to question.  And as you say, Davos may in part be driven to stick with Stannis to prove that the death of the son he loved without question -- and whose character he also honored -- was not in vain.  

 

"Who loves me," was a subtext of this "Laws of Gods and Men."  Proven by deed, all around. 

 

1. Yara loves Theon, at least as much as she "should"
2. Theon loves his captor, loves his chains, loves his humiliation
3. Jaime loves Tyrion
4. Who else?  Show of hands?  
5. Tyrion trusts Jaime's love (but wisely fears what it may be worth, opposed to Tywin)
6. Davos loves Stannis
7. Davos is a hard man to figure, with regard to the pirate, says the pirate.

[stillshimpy]

Well and then so much of the episode was also driven by: 

8. Cersei loves Joffrey, to the detriment of all in the Kingdom.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Trial By Combat! Who will Tyrion name? THC (Tyrion's Hypothetical Champion - c'mon, I live in SEATTLE!) could be a number of people.

 

Maybe THC is Jaime. Since there is some spec that Jaime may have reached the end of his redemption arc, Jaime could die trying to save Tyrion's life. The THC could also be Bronn, who seems less likely to loose than Jaime. Who else is Tyrion familiar with as a great fighter? Oberyn Martel? It probably wouldn't be proper to select one of the judges to be a champion. The Mountain? Too much his father's henchman. Any other THC candidates?

 

Who would Cersei choose? Loras? There would be an amazing complexity to this. A grieving mother selecting her future husband (who she loathes) to fight for her in a trial by combat against the brother / baby-father who raped her. My mind wants to explode just thinking about it. She could also choose The Mountain, her father's loyal servant. Not nearly as interesting. No one else comes to mind for Cersei to choose.

 

Does a Trial By Combat have to be "to the death"? If it isn't, could Bronn fight for Tyrion and be bribed to throw the fight?

 

No matter who Tyrion selects as Champion, there is still a good chance they will LOOSE. Where will that leave Tyrion? Sitting in a dark cell, awaiting execution. Who could intervene?

1. Jaime. Strongly motivated to help, but could be injured / dead after the Trial By Combat. Or he could feel he did all he could to get Tyrion sent to the Wall, so all this Trial By Combat and it's aftermath is all on Tyrion's head.
2. Tyrell Family. Knows the truth behind the poisoning of Joffrey, and so don't want Tyrion to loose his head over it.
3. Varys. Might be motivated to save Tyrion's head because a) he couldn't save Poor Ned Stark, and b) he was sincere in saying "There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The king won't give you any honors, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget." In S1 Varys told Ned "I could (free you); but will I? No. As I said, I am no hero", but he may be motivated by his promise ("we will not forget") to be heroic and risk his neck to save Tyrion.

[Llywela]

Pallas,

Yeah, Stannis sees people's true value and nature better than most, for all that he's a stickler for "truth"

Perhaps because he's such a stickler for truth.

[abelard]

Great analysis of the Baratheon brothers, shimpy.  Brother #1 (Robert): A Charismatic Warrior and Hedonist.  Brother #2 (Stannis): A Non-Charismatic Warrior and Pragmatist.  Brother #3 (Renley): A Charismatic Non-Warrior and Hedonist (though not as bad as Robert by a long shot).  Who would have been the best king among them?  Hard to say.  

 

The more I think on it, the more I think Lannisters Must Pay will be the theme of Episode 9 this season.  We all know that 9 will be bloody, as it always is (Ned's beheading, Blackwater Bay, Red Wedding were all #9), so what could it be this season?  I think my theory about all the Lannisters going out in one big purge might really happen.  Oh wait!  I just thought of another thing it could be: the Wildling Battle at the Wall.  Okay never mind.  As much as my Elizabethan drama-loving heart would love for the entire Lannister dynasty to flame out (not literally, Melisandre's not in KL at the moment) in one episode, I think 9 will probably be Jon Snow trying to hold the Wall.  (with Brienne and Pod I hope!!!)

[gingerella]

I guess if he died nobly to save Tyrion I would be O.K. with that but still very sad...

But if Tyrion's champion died in the contest, doesn't that mean Tyrion would end of being punished anway, since his champion lost?  I thought the entire point of such fights was that the person who won, won the freedom of the person they were fighting for, yes?

 

Another thing I keep forgetting to discuss is this - Tywin's firstborn son is named Jamie. Not a very legacy-sounding moniker if you ask me. His lastborn and last son, is named Tyrion.  Tyrion is the only child with a name spelled similarly to Tywin...Does it mean anything, I wonder? It's something that always jumped out at me as being obvious and yet it's still not.

[abcfsk]

 

 Where will that leave Tyrion? Sitting in a dark cell, awaiting execution.  

 

 

All his sitting in a (king's landing) cell awaiying execution gives me major Ned Stark flashbacks. I mean Tyrion's escaped that fate one time before but I can just see some tragic Ned-ian outcome in the future. 

[Llywela]

But if Tyrion's champion died in the contest, doesn't that mean Tyrion would end of being punished anway, since his champion lost?  I thought the entire point of such fights was that the person who won, won the freedom of the person they were fighting for, yes?

Well, kinda - the champion fighting for the defendant is fighting for the freedom of that person, but their opponent is fighting to prove the guilt of the accused, so if the Crown's champion wins, it means Tyrion is guilty, which means he must face the punishment, be that execution or imprisonment or whatever. That was how trial by combat worked traditionally, in the middle ages, anyway.

 

ETA the outcome is far more clear cut when the defendant fights his or her own battle, instead of nominating a champion - if they lose they die, right there on the spot, no messing around with retrospective punishments.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Llywela

[arry the orphan]

 

I think 9 will probably be Jon Snow trying to hold the Wall.  (with Brienne and Pod I hope!!!)

 

Please!!!!! Brienne and Pod fighting against a giant!!!

[DemosthenesKey]

In brief regards as to why Davos is loyal to Stannis, I'm pretty sure that's not a plot hole. It was spelled out pretty clearly prior to Blackwater in Season Two that although yes, Stannis chopped off his fingers... he also raised him up to be a knight. That's a HUGE step up for the guy, and it guarantees a good life and education for his children. It guarantees a surviving line.

And the comparison with Ned and Robert, and someone talking about how Robert would never kill Ned... maybe it's just me, but this whole "Stannis threatening to kill Davos then not actually doing it" feels quite like the Dread Pirate Roberts from the Princess Bride.

"Good night, you've been a good valet, I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

Except of course he never does. So my small little spec is that Stannis will never kill Davos - it's just something he Does. Wake up, dress in various colors of grey, eat breakfast, threaten to kill Davos, prepare battle plans.

Edited May 12, 2014 by DemosthenesKey

[90PercentGravity]

I think Tywin would be wise to just leave Dany alone. She seems content to start her new kingdom in Essos. Attacking her now might get her fired back up about heading west.

[abelard]

Well, kinda - the champion fighting for the defendant is fighting for the freedom of that person, but their opponent is fighting to prove the guilt of the accused, so if the Crown's champion wins, it means Tyrion is guilty, which means he must face the punishment, be that execution or imprisonment or whatever. That was how trial by combat worked traditionally, in the middle ages, anyway.

ETA the outcome is far more clear cut when the defendant fights his or her own battle, instead of nominating a champion - if they lose they die, right there on the spot, no messing around with retrospective punishments.

 

IA with this: if Tyrion's champion loses, Tyrion loses his head.  I don't think that it's the kind of thing where, once you call for a Trial-by-Combat and someone dies for you, that you can just up and go to the Wall for your punishment.  No.  It's your champion's, and your own, lives on the line.  Indeed it is much cleaner and clearer when you fight for yourself in such cases, since only one life is at stake there, and not two.

 

Please!!!!! Brienne and Pod fighting against a giant!!!

 

This would be most excellent :).  

[RadiantAerynSun]

I wonder if Tyrion would even have the right to name a champion, or if he might be forced to fight himself. To fight Jaime???

[stillshimpy]

IA with this: if Tyrion's champion loses, Tyrion loses his head.  I don't think that it's the kind of thing where, once you call for a Trial-by-Combat and someone dies for you, that you can just up and go to the Wall for your punishment.  No.  It's your champion's, and your own, lives on the line.  Indeed it is much cleaner and clearer when you fight for yourself in such cases, since only one life is at stake there, and not two.

 

Agreed and I think Tyrion was sort of wise to call for a trial by combat.  He's no Ned Stark, what would life at the Wall even be like for him?  I could see Ned making a go of a life of being a Ranger and guarding the kingdom.  Benjen and Jon were both supposed to be there.  It was not without some appeal for Ned, even if he only agreed to it because Varys appealed to the father in him   But I was a little surprised that Jaime thought it was a good idea for Tyrion. 

 

Absolutely everything Tyrion likes about being alive is not a part of life at the Wall.  So much for being the idle god of tits and wine.  I know Tyrion had grown past just being a small of stature party boy, but it was partially that he liked the feeling that he was good at something.  

 

It makes sense to me that Tryion just decided, "Oh fuck this nonsense!  Death or freedom, no compromises!" 

Edited May 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

He's no Ned Stark, what would life at the Wall even be like for him?  I could see Ned making a go of a life of being a Ranger and guarding the kingdom.  Benjen and Jon were both supposed to be there.  It was not without some appeal for Ned, even if he only agreed to it because Varys appealed to the father in him   But I was a little surprised that Jaime thought it was a good idea for Tyrion.

Absolutely everything Tyrion likes about being alive is not a part of life at the Wall.  So much for being the idle god of tits and wine.  I know Tyrion had grown past just being a small of stature party boy, but it was partially that he liked the feeling that he was good at something. 

It makes sense to me that Tryion just decided, "Oh fuck this nonsense!  Death or freedom, no compromises!"

 

My heart still cries at Ned not having been allowed to go to the Wall.  As you suggest, there are many parts of Ned that frankly would have loved the Wall.  I can see why Starks volunteered there for centuries, for generations.  The Wall is pretty freaking Stark, if you ask me, at every level.  Starks are the North and the Wall is the North.  Starks are about justice, they are about holding the line, and the Wall is the line.  Ned would have hated being away from Winterfell, and from Cat, but he would have gone to the Wall to save the girls (well, Sansa anyway), and so he would have been secure in having done his fatherly duty, and he would have gotten to hang with other Stark men, his beloved brother and bastard son (or...whatever Jon is to Ned), and he would have gotten to defend the Wall against Wildlings and worse, if he had lived to this part of the tale.  There would have been an easy pick for First Ranger when Benjen went missing, and an even easier pick for Lord Commander when LC Mormont got killed, and those asshats in charge now would not have been in charge under Ned.  The Wall needed Ned, and Ned would have loved the Wall, I'm convinced.

 

As for Tyrion, I actually think, all evidence to the contrary, Tyrion could have made a go of it.  Aemon said you can patronize the brothel as long as you don't desert; Tyrion could have mostly set up shop there and looked out a bit for Sam's girl.  And Tyrion would have been great as...if not a Maester like Aemon, something like the Guy Who Thinks Up Plans, Decides on Strategy, and Gets Stuff Done.  I think that he could have earned a place of respect and authority there, and Jon Snow and Sam would have recognized his strengths once they could see past the drinking.  But now we'll never know what Brother Crow Tyrion would have been like, because as we agreed, that's no longer an option after T-by-C. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

At the wall, Tyrion would doubtless be a Steward. He could team up with Samwell to see who could out-nerd the other. Together they could plan a strategy to cleverly defend the wall against the white walkers (wildfire and dragonglass arrows!) I could actually see it working... but no, I don't really see the wall in Tyrion's future. I was terrified last night the episode would end with him being beheaded, because, well not like that would be unprecedented!! :O

[gingerella]

So I have no idea if there is anything to this but...since Littlefinger has his fingers in pretty much every thing going on right now, is it possible on any level, that he would try to help save Tyrion? I am trying to think of how that might go down, or even why that would go down, but can anyone muster up any spitballs on that possibility?

The only thing I can think of is that LF would be ingratiating himself with Tyrion, and IF - and yeah its a BIG if - Tyrion and Sansa were reunited and installed a Wardens of the North again, maaaaaybe tht would benefit LF at some point in the future? I really dont have a better idea right now but it just popped into my head and thought I would share...

[WhiteStumbler]

Littlefinger can be a little misunderstood in his desire to protect his now-niece Sansa from all harm. He does this only as a result of the high regard he has for House Tully, and without any thought to possible benefit to himself. I am equally sure that this open-hearted / open-handed stance would extend to the husband of Sansa, Tyrion. "Call me Uncle Petyr, ya lil' imp! Noooooo slapping! Hahaha!!"

/jk

I would look to Littlefinger's rival, Varys, for any help for Tyrion. I def can see Jaime trying to help, but am not sure what he can do. Tywin is a maybe if he sees some angle for Lannisters, House Martel ditto.

[stillshimpy]

So I have no idea if there is anything to this but...since Littlefinger has his fingers in pretty much every thing going on right now, is it possible on any level, that he would try to help save Tyrion?

 

I'm with White Stumbler on this, if there is to be any help for Tyrion, I think Varys is the person who might come to his aid.  

 

The problem is that Varys will not, and probably it's a wise trait, in anyway risk his position of trust with Tywin or the Crown.  Varys already told Tyrion he wouldn't lie for him when it came to Shae, and Varys -- who did seem to be inviting Oberyn into some powerplay of his own, so I guess that's why it's important that Oberyn is a Prince -- has his own agenda that doesn't include anything to do with Tyrion's largely self-created problem. *

 

I just don't think there's a chance in all seven hells that Littlefinger would help Tyrion  Even if Littlefinger doesn't have nasty designs on Sansa -- and let's face it, he almost certainly has some kind of plan for her -- not one of them would be benefited by Sansa still being married to Tryion.  Shae handily provided testimony that Sansa and Tyrion did not consummate their marriage.  Littlefinger pretty obviously purposefully left that necklace behind too.  

 

So I think the last person, on whatever passed for Earth in Westeros, to try and help Tyrion is actually Littlefinger...or possibly Cersei.  

 

* I like Tyrion, but he's only second to Ned Stark in pissing off absolutely everyone who could hurt him. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

I could see Jaime being Tyrion's champion, and Cersei then naming Loras, thinking that way it was almost a win/win for her: either Jaime/Tyrion are dead (IMO, at this point, she could really care less if Jaime was killed) or Loras (Freeing her of the marriage). That's how I'd play it, anyway...

 

I do wonder if Oberyn might be convinced to help Tyrion, if only to screw over the larger Lannister family (well, Tywin) especially since they had that sort of "Bonding" scene when they first met. Maybe Jaime could mount some kind of escape attempt and Tyrion could be spirited off to Dorne... where they don't hurt little girls, or little people.

[Snowblack]

I'm trying to see Little Finger's end game with Sansa.  By framing her as an accomplice (with or without Shae's testimony), he has destroyed her political value.  There is no way the sons of a murderess will be recognized as the heirs to Winterfell.  But Little Finger is the only person (with connections to King's Landing) who knows that Arya is still out there.  And he isn't privy to Bolton's knowledge that Bran and Rickon are still out there.  My thinking is that he doesn't give a damn about Sansa's claim to Winterfell (although if he can capitalize on that, he will).  He just wants to possess her, very possibly in a non-sexual way.  And her apparent role in Joffrey's death leaves her with nowhere to go.  I'm thinking that Sansa's only realistic hope at this point is Margaery becoming queen, and knowing the truth, arranging some sort of pardon for Sansa.  But that's too much to hope for.     

[stillshimpy]

Well, Littlefinger has certainly succeeded in giving Sansa a reason to believe "it's Us against the world, kid" because her only other "ally" now is freaking Crazypants Lyssa and that's not likely to help her much.  

 

He's whittled Sansa's world down to just being able to rely on Littlefinger.   By helping to frame Sansa, even potentially turning the allies in the North against her, Littlefinger has left Sansa with only one port in the big life storm: Littlefinger.  

 

Of course, Brienne is also out there, and whereas I didn't get the feeling Jon Snow and Sansa were close, he'd definitely protect her.  

Edited May 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[AlphaLine]

I think the trial by combat has to be Jamie vs Bronn. I can't see it any other way really.

 

-Jamie dies

-Cersie becomes hysterical and kills Tyrion.

-In the chaos, Obi Porn Kenobi stabs Tywin in the back ( as payback for his sister )

-???

-All hail King Stannis! Take all the infidels to the burning yard, starting with the incest king Tommen!

[abelard]

Yeah, I see now that LF probably doesn't want to marry Sansa to rule the North - as everyone is saying, she's likely not going to be permitted to inherit (or rather, to pass on to her heirs) the Warden of the North title.  So LF just wants to, what, keep Sansa in his clutches?  Just have her around?  It's like Sansa is once again someone's "little dove," the thing they like to toy with to amuse themselves. 

 

But I guess that means that Tywin knowingly stripped his family the chance of ruling the North directly?  He had one dream -- that Tyrion and 

Sansa's son would one day be Warden of the North -- and he gave that up for another -- that Jaime would be Lord of Casterly Rock.  I guess there is a way in which he had no choice but to give up the first dream, Sansa booked it out of KL and without her, there is no "key to the North" plan, and plus if Sansa is implicated at all in the murder plot (which the necklace seems to do without question), then Tywin has to give up that whole Tyrion-Sansa's-son plan anyway.  And what he has really wanted for forever is Jaime taking his proper place, so he's happy to let Bolton take the North for the foreseeable future.  He thinks he has the Bolton House's loyalty forever and ever, anyway.  

 

AlphaLine, I have made that same prediction, and I think the magic step is that without a strong (real) Lannister leader guiding him and making all the important decisions, King Tommen will be totally vulnerable to Stannis's attack.  Stannis may come with a new army and there'll be no Cersei-commissioned, Tyrion-deployed wildfire, and there'll be no Tywin Lannister to bring in two large armies.  The Tyrells will probably not be enough to hold the capital, and may lack the will to fight to the last man.

Edited May 13, 2014 by abelard

[MrMicrophone]

Jaime wasn't thinking about anything other than saving his brother's life, as efficiently as possible.

In the first season, you see Tyrion refer to Jaime as the one who would revenge his death -- the two brothers really do get along.

But Jaime ("Mr. Not Serious Enough to be Hand") isn't a very strategic thinker. He thinks with his heart more than his head.

[gingerella]

I just had a thought and I hope it comes true...I think that when Bolton's bastard brings Theon to wherever Yara and her men are holed up, to pretend Theon is still Theon, I think/hope/pray that Yara realizes immediately that it's a ruse and kills Theon once and for all, to put him out of his misery.  And so I never have to see his character on my TV screen again. I am so over Theon's story line, and I now want his sister, the only living person who gives a miserable shit about his worthless existence, to be the one who finally snuffs out his flame.  And hopefully she can take the bastard out as well.

[stillshimpy]

That's where Ramsay is taking Theon?  I've watched twice and didn't catch that.  

[90PercentGravity]

I don't think he specifically said where he was taking him, just that he needed him to pretend to be Theon Greyjoy. I think it is just an assumption that he wants him to pretend for Yara's sake. It seems like the most logical thing, at least.

[abelard]

I think Ramsay and Theon are headed to The Moat (isn't that what Dad Bolton said Ramsay had to take from the Greyjoys?).  I don't think Yara will be there, I think Ramsay just wants Reek to pass as Theon so that the Greyjoys defending the Moat (or whatever) will let in Theon and his troops, even though they'll be Bolton troops.  Once the Boltons are inside the gates, they can take it from within.  That's my guess. 

[Pallas]

 I like Tyrion, but he's only second to Ned Stark in pissing off absolutely everyone who could hurt him. -- stillshimpy

 

So funny, so sad, so true.

[AlphaLine]

I just caught something on my ep. 5 rewatch. Apparently, Brienne thinks Sansa has gone to the Wall. So apparently, Brienne and Pod are going to the Wall. That is.. moronic, really. They should be knowing she has an aunt in the Vale.

 

Of course, since they said they'll go to the wall it's obvious that it's the one place they'll never get to. I think its a running joke that only people in the North ( Jon, Bran, Locke ) can actually get to the Wall. Gendry and Arya wanted to go to the wall but that all fell to pieces. Stannis said he was going to the wall but then he fools around for a while and then goes to Bravos.

 

I wonder what Brienne/Pod will do , actually. They might come across Arya and the Hound, and that's about it. Unless they focus on sexscapades - The X rated adventures of Brienne and Pod!

[90PercentGravity]

Tyrion made it to the wall in season one (or was it two?).

Edited May 14, 2014 by 90PercentGravity