Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I do agree with you, @Pallas, Dany has done great things and has proved herself a strong ally in the fight against the Army of the Dead. I'm just not entirely convinced she's the ruler post-war Westeros is going to need - or that she is capable, in the end, of becoming the sort of ruler post-war Westeros is going to need. What she wants, at the end of the day, is to re-create the kingdom her father had, exactly as it was - which will put her at odds with some of her greatest allies, who want nothing of the sort. Is she capable of compromise, where her greatest personal ambition is concerned? (Putting it on hold for the sake of something more important is not the same as striking a permanent compromise.) I'm not convinced she is. I hope she proves me wrong!

This sums up my feelings way better than I tried to say, thank you dear Llywela! Dany represents the old way of ruling over people, whilst the 'new way' that I think Westeros will want and need to move forward after/IF they survive this battle against the AotD, will require someone more like a melange of Jon's emotional intelligence/honesty/loyalty/integrity, Tyrion's intelligence/diplomacy/street marts, and Sansa's compassion/honor/loyalty. Those three combined, to me, make a great governing team, plus an assortment of folks hither and yon to care for the day to day of their localities - Lady Lyanna for Bear Island, Alyse Karstark for her area, and so on. A new generation with a new way of keeping the peace so that everyone - citizens of Westeros and former Wildlings, can live in peace, harmony and prosperity. But we all know how A Show likes to shit on A Viewer when we're down so...I'm not getting my hopes up too much, until we see what the death count is Sunday night.

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

And that makes me wonder what Bronn's part in all this will ultimately be - he's on his way North right now, so will probably arrive in the middle of all the anticipated chaos next week. If he survives, and doesn't turn on his old chums Tyrion and Jaime as ordered, could he prove some kind of ace in the hole? He has access to Cersei, of a sort, after all, having been sent by her on this mission. He could act as a spy in the camp, if he were willing (and still alive)...

Aha,^THIS^! This is where I can see Arya killing Bronn to take his face and thus gain direct access to Cersei to kill her off once and for all. You heard it here Spitballers... 😉

[Llywela]

5 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Speaking of long shots, I think there is a chance, just a chance, that we lose only a couple main characters (and a few minor characters) this Sunday.

Which kind of brings us back to the question: who do we consider expendable minor characters at this point...?

Nope, can't think about it. I am still terrified for everyone! (Everyone currently up north, that is)

Another question, brought to mind by all those civilians planning to hide out in the crypts below Winterfell - how freshly dead do the dead have to be for the Night King to reanimate them?

[WhiteStumbler]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

how freshly dead do the dead have to be for the Night King to reanimate them?

Seven Hells! Ned's bones are going to reanimate and kill them all!!

ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!

[janjan]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Seven Hells! Ned's bones are going to reanimate and kill them all!!

NK will have to get into the crypt first, past our intrepid defenders. Something tells me he'll get past the Iron Born protecting Bran, though maybe not past the others hiding in the bushes. BUT - how to stop him? Dragon fire is useless, as A Show made of point of demonstrating outside Root Dude's cave. The CoF threw fireballs, which stopped the wights, but NK walked right through the fire. Uh oh. It's come down to dragon glass and Valerian steel, which means hand-to-hand fighting. Eggy, Jorah, Jaime, and Brienne all have V steel. Anyone else?

[Pallas]

23 hours ago, janjan said:

You make a strong case, O Mother of Kitty, but I'm not convinced. Everything you cite could indeed be evidence that Dany is a Good Guy, but those actions can also be seen as her making no-cost bets

Hee!, and what a great response. I wasn't advocating for Dany, though, but speaking from her perspective. Where I'd feel gobsmacked and astonished at how I'd let myself be led by a wolf in wolf's clothing, now claiming to be a dragon. 

I still believe that the last act of the saga will be the end of absolute monarchy and the beginnings of representative rule, worldwide, symbolized by the melting down of the Iron Throne by dragon fire. And I sense that Dany has served her purpose as a disruptor of the established order and the mother of three WMD's, rather than one of several leaders in a new future. Her perspective is a point of conflict toward the resolution.

But it's also true that not only Dany, but everyone still alive on this world, has known only purely autocratic rule. And shit rule, too. In the East, slave-states overseen by tyrants, warlords or oligarchs; in the West (and just in living memory), King Mad, King Drunk, King Vicious, King Kitten and Queen Narcissus, Techno-Terrorist.

In this world, the only society run on more democratic lines was, as it happens, the Free Folk -- where a manifest leader from outside the culture united the peoples but refused to be crowned or to be ruled. Also, to some degree, the Night's Watch, which elects its own leaders. Jon Snow does know something: he knows both these models. 

But if you're Dany, you don't have to be Littlefinger or your father to be taken aback by this astonishing revelation (you just can't be Jon Snow, apparently). Newly hatched and bred by his weird brother and his friend with the big grudge. And the timing, with her peerless and loyal Unsullied and Dothraki forces committed to a battle they can no longer escape. Only she could leave now: fly with her surviving children back across the Narrow Sea to Dragon's Bay and Daario, leaving stupid Westeros to the walking dead, like an unlamented Valyria.

But she knows Jon knows she won't. She's let him know her.

On 4/25/2019 at 2:02 PM, janjan said:

We won't really know the answer until we see how she reacts to Jon's claim -- assuming he even makes a claim. He doesn't share her obsession with power, having given it up twice already.

Absolutely. Sam's question to Jon. That's the hub of the wheel.

On 4/25/2019 at 2:02 PM, janjan said:

ps - How's the kitty?

 Two years old and still a kitten! See Small Talk, a little later!

[WhiteStumbler]

4 minutes ago, Pallas said:

In this world, the only society run on more democratic lines was, as it happens, the Free Folk -- where a manifest leader from outside the culture united the peoples but refused to be crowned or to be ruled. Also, to some degree, the Night's Watch, which elects its own leaders. Jon Snow does know something: he knows both these models. 

The Ironborn's kingsmoot, as boring as that was, probably qualifies as some sort of representative government.

35 minutes ago, janjan said:

Anyone else?

Arya had Knifey.

[Pallas]

16 hours ago, Llywela said:

Another question, brought to mind by all those civilians planning to hide out in the crypts below Winterfell - how freshly dead do the dead have to be for the Night King to reanimate them?

Almost since Benjen went missing, we've been wondering when Jon or another of our heroes would meet one of their dead, fighting for death. (About Benjen, we were only half-wight.)

From what we've seen, it looks as if a zomboni needs a working skeleton, intact, with no more missing than an arm. (If true, Ned's safely at rest, just as he was similarly disqualified from resurrection by the Lord of Light.) As for the timing of their re-animation: how old were the bodies buried in the graveyard outside the original Three-Eyed Raven's cave?  I honestly don't recall; were they victims of the current war? So, my guesses, with implied sniffle gifs:

Under the Weirwood

• Benjen  
• Jojen
• Summer
• Hodor

The Night King will almost surely send these ahead of him to confront Bran. Also,

• Anyone among the Free Folk or Night's Watch who we neither quite recall right now, nor remember seeing cremated.

In the Crypt

• Lyanna (age-appropriate?)
• Rickon (?, if his body somehow survived the Battle of the Bastards being waged on top of it)
• Rickard and Brandon (if not burned to ashes, and if their remains were returned to Winterfell by the Mad King, with glee)

Of course the graveyards of the villages near Winterfell and the fields surrounding are Selective Service Centers for draftees of the dead. (Roose and Ramsay Bolton, anyone? Though maybe the Night King wouldn't have 'em.) All that's certain is that despite its branding, the crypt is to Safe! as the Titanic was to Unsinkable!

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

The Ironborn's kingsmoot, as boring as that was, probably qualifies as some sort of representative government.

But perhaps no longer? Because it seems that you can gain control over and rule the Ironborn if you kill the next in line, then swing your dick on to the table and let everyone know you're the biggest of them all.

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Arya had Knifey.

Was just going to say this...Knifey is V-steel yes?

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

In this world, the only society run on more democratic lines was, as it happens, the Free Folk -- where a manifest leader from outside the culture united the peoples but refused to be crowned or to be ruled. Also, to some degree, the Night's Watch, which elects its own leaders. Jon Snow does know something: he knows both these models. 

Oooo, this gave me chills! Yes. Jon knows both the Free Folk and NW organizational elements, and he was able to assimilate himself into both, and rise to leadership roles no less. It would be very moving to me if the Free Folk and their style of democratic governance took hold to steer Westeros into the future, and be especially poignant that the people who got caught - for whatever reasons, we still don't know - on the wrong side of the Wall thousands of years ago, were now the same people who will lead Westeros forward on the other side of the Wall.

And Jon, far more than Dany, understands how people-powered grass roots organizing works, which makes me love him even more right now, and then makes me shit me britches because anyone A Viewer loves, usually is next in line for being offed in a gruesome manner. Oy, A Show should be providing free sedatives for Viewers right now...

ETA: Re the dead in the crypt rising into zombonis...it seems like they'd have a tough time opening their stone tombs though, no? I hope what Pallas is suggesting doesn't happen, I would be so bummed to see Benjen trying to kill Bran et all.

Edited April 26, 2019 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

25 minutes ago, Pallas said:

(About Benjen, we were only half-wight.) 

(Joffrey slow-clap) Well played, Pallas, well played...

26 minutes ago, gingerella said:

But perhaps no longer? Because it seems that you can gain control over and rule the Ironborn if you kill the next in line, then swing your dick on to the table and let everyone know you're the biggest of them all.

But they still elected Urine.

27 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Knifey is V-steel yes?

Si.
Roddrick: (speaking in the godswood with Cat, Maester Luwin, Theon and Robb, a conference of the dead) Did you notice the dagger the killer used? It's too fine a weapon for such a man. The blade is Valyrian steel, the handle dragonbone. Someone gave it to him.

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

The Ironborn's kingsmoot, as boring as that was, probably qualifies as some sort of representative government.

Very true. Judging by their election of Euron, maybe no more than a Soviet plebiscite, but, baby steps...

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Because it seems that you can gain control over and rule the Ironborn if you kill the next in line, then swing your dick on to the table.

"...Like seeing a fish on top of a mountain." 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Jon knows both the Free Folk and NW organizational elements, and he was able to assimilate himself into both, and rise to leadership roles no less. It would be very moving to me if the Free Folk and their style of democratic governance took hold to steer Westeros into the future, and be especially poignant that the people who got caught - for whatever reasons, we still don't know - on the wrong side of the Wall thousands of years ago, were now the same people who will lead Westeros forward on the other side of the Wall

So true. And Jon also has the power of inspiring people toward the common good, by speaking to their fellow-feeling: to what connects them to each other. And his kindness to the weaker or the weirder, even when his own status was precarious or worse.

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

(About Benjen, we were only half-wight.)

LMAO.  You are till the Queen of the Wordsmiths.

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

In the Weirwood

• Benjen  
• Jojen
• Summer
• Hodor

AcK! Didn't even think of that!

I'm hoping that Benjen's reprieve by the CotG might still protect him from re-animation.  I'm praying to the Old Gods and the New as hard as I can.

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Anyone among the Free Folk or Night's Watch who we neither remember right now, nor remember seeing cremated. 

Craster? Don't think he was burned by the Night's Watch turncoats: Karl, Rast (Commander Mormont slayer) & the rest of that Crew. However, by that time Jon and his gang knew to burn the dead so I don't think Jorah will be confronted by his dead father trying to kill him. At least that's what I remember right now.  So maybe only Craster? But knowing the turncoats, digging a grave would be too much work, so he may have been laying around too and Jon et al would have added him to the pyre.

The only time we saw the dead arise from the grave WAS at the Weirwood tree occupied by the TER. And that seemed to be shock value. They all returned to the grave - taking Jojen with them. 

Still, I think the dead rising from the crypt might be a real possibility - even if in montage - just for the shock value. I can't remember who is in charge of defending the Crypt - except that little girl who wasn't sent to get a weapon. Anybody else know?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

29 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I can't remember who is in charge of defending the Crypt - except that little girl who wasn't sent to get a weapon. Anybody else know?

The little demi-Shireen...I think these three of-able-mind-but-lesser-brawn will also be there: Tyrion, Davos and Sam?  Sansa was sporting a breastplate in the war council scene: surely for more than one reason, but on the face of it, that suggests she'll be somewhere on the battlements. 

29 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Craster? Don't think he was burned by the Night's Watch turncoats: Karl, Rast (Commander Mormont slayer) & the rest of that Crew.

Ack! Craster!  The White Walkers' father! Along with Gilly's...If he makes one move toward his only living son/grandson, I see Gilly bagging her first zomboni.

[Anothermi]

3 minutes ago, Pallas said:

The little demi-Shireen...

That's what I thought, too, when I saw her.

[WhiteStumbler]

Great spitballing from y'all. Loving it, and terrrifying.

I'm out until sometime next week. May the gods have mercy on us all...

[gingerella]

On 4/26/2019 at 3:26 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

Great spitballing from y'all. Loving it, and terrrifying.

I'm out until sometime next week. May the gods have mercy on us all...

@WhiteStumbler, are you deserting the Spitball Wall to hide in a cave at the Fist of the First Men? Coward!

Right now, we are 6.5 hours away from airing ET time...I am afraid already, very, very afraid...

[gingerella]

On 4/26/2019 at 11:52 AM, WhiteStumbler said:

Arya had Knifey.

This had me on a tear today thinking that:

If Robert hadn't packed up and gone on the road show to Winterfell, Jamie and Cersei would never had been having sex in the tower and Bran would never had spied on them thus giving Jamie a reason to push Bran off the tower and cripple him for life. Bran had to survive that fall so that someone (LF) could plan Bran's murder but it had to be botched so that Knifey! could be dropped and then found and brought to KL by Ned. Arya had to show up Bran in the courtyard that day to show her father that she had mad bow and arrow skills so that when they got to KL, Ned would agree to give her 'dance' lessons with Syrio, which in turn taught her the fundamentals that would set her on her life's path. Ned had to die so that Arya would run away from KL and meet up with Gendry and Mel, so that Mel would know that there was 'something' about Arya that was going to be important one day. Arya had to end up roaming the countryside with the Hound so that she could hone her fighting skills and also so that the Hound could bond with her enough to snap out of his defeat and protect her on the most important night/fight of their lives...one day. Arya had to end up at the Rat Bucket Palace so that she could run into Jaquen H'agar and get a free token to Braavos, and she had to go to Braavos and train to become Nobody, and she had to anger Jaquen enough that she was temporarily blinded because honing her skills in how to fight for her life in the dark and with no sense of sight would one day serve her in her ultimate reason for being. And LF had to bring Sansa and Knifey! to Winterfell eventually so that Arya would find Knifey! and be able to wield it one day soon, on the most important battle of her life.

There are soooo many of these puzzle pieces one can follow backwards or forwards to see how, as Bran said last night, "...so that you would be here now..."

Dany had to be married off like cattle to Drogo so that Drogo could eliminate Viserys, and Drogo had to die so that Dany could, in her grief, hatch the dragonettes, and make headway in getting herself to Westeros. Jorah had to be banished, get stone man disease and be locked away in the Citadel so that no harm would come to him and he would be ready to connect with Sam and be cured and released at the right moment in time to be there to save Dany's life on the battlefield because without him she surely would have perished.

Jon had to die and be reborn so that he would tell the NW to fuck off -  something he'd never have done normally given his Starkian code of honor - and so that he could make his way to Winterfell and Dragonstone and beyond, connecting with Dany and finding the armies and reinforcements he would require to fight the NK and the AotD. Tyrion and Sansa had to escape Westeros after Joff's offing so that they would live to fulfill their destinies in the war of The Long Night.

There's more of that but maybe someone else can take on a few strands...but the thing is, they all start with "Ned Stark had to die to set off all the chains of seemingly random events that all lined up in exactly the right place in exactly the right time, so that the NK could be defeated last night. Fucking hell, what a ride!

[Anothermi]

Sunday is fast approaching and my thoughts have been turning back to King's Landing.

I don't know if A Show will take us there right away, or if they will give us - and the characters - time to grieve and regroup. But there was something in Episode 2  that gives me incentive to observe Lord Qyburn very closely when we do get to King's landing.

The was a scene in E02 that indicated that Qyburn, too, had believed Cersei when she declared she and her armies would join the fight against the AotD. Cersei was standing on (the battlements?) looking out over Blackwater Bay and musing (as she does... most probably about how she is going to devise the demise of Unine Greyjoy) when Qyburn come scurrying up with a very worried looking face. He declaims that the Army of the Dead have breached the Wall. By the look on his face he was NOT expecting her reply of: "Good".

His face resumed a neutral expression at that point.

My spitball, given that A Show has seen fit to provide us with that reaction, is that Qyburn may also be a potential author of Cercei's doom.

I see him as a little bit like Sam. Awkward and unusually prescient in his proclivities. But he didn't have the support team around him that Sam had and had to be sly about how he survived. (remember that it was Robb who 1st found him - way back when! so he may play an important role)

Right now I am sure that he could be a decent man - given the right circumstances - but he spent his life - like Varys - telling those above him what they wanted to hear. So, like Tywin, if he see the winds blowing away from Cercei? I believe he will switch sides. BUT, he doesn't realize there is Sam who could replace him in a trice, so a late change of heart may not save him. If this is the case, I will be sad to see his role ended. He's been a curious and compelling character since we first saw him.

I'm hoping that he will end up doing the right thing and be allowed to follow his passions under the watchful eye of Arch Maester Samwell Tarly back at the Citadel. (Sam will have moderized the Citadel and Gilly may even study there.<wink face> )

[gingerella]

@Anothermi, your musings on Qyburn are interesting...he created the Mountainstein and it’s looking like there will be a Clegane Brothers showdown so it makes sense Qyburn will play a role because Mountain is his creation baby.p,so to speak. I hope he doesn’t undercut The Hound though...that would suck. I imagine that the Hound is destined to either die killing his monster bro, or he’ll bite it saving Sansa or Arya. Then again, I can see him also surviving because he sort of seems like a fatalist waiting to die, and being a survivor suits him. I can see him surviving and saying, “I can’t even fucking die when I want to!”

I’m thinking Sansa might stay at Winterfell as Lady of the North so to speak, and hold the fort and rebuild. Then again, we need her on the canvas but it really doesn’t make sense for her to travel south. But Arya will because there is one last name to cross off her list...Speaking of which...

...there are soooo many people who could be The One to take out Cersei,  each with his or her own strong reason. Who will it be???

I suspect that E04 will have at least some focus on the dawn after The Long Night. With all those dead, they’ll have to burn them right? Then, there is a trail of dead from the march from the Wall southward, so it seems like there should be a team going up to The Last Hearth to burn the bodies there, but I doubt we’ll see that. A Show needs to use its mintues sparingly so I don’t think we’ll get resolution on that. I am thinking about the Wall, what happens now? Does it get re built? We still don’t know if any CotF exist at this point and if not, there is nobody to put fresh magic into the Wall. Then again, IF there are no more WWs, which I’m not convinced at this point, there is no need for a Wall, right? But it feels like it should be rebuilt. It’s funny how A Show has made me feel that a Wall is imperative regardless of the existence of WWs, etc. It’s a testament to A Show getting into our psyche and really screwing with us. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

On 5/3/2019 at 8:50 PM, Anothermi said:

He's been a curious and compelling character since we first saw him.

I found it fascinating that Robb and Talisa were the ones to find Qyburn in the shattered remains of Harenhal, half dead. Then he saved Jaime's arm ("stop the corruption" with boiling wine, I think), then he accompanied Jaime back to KL and somehow fell in with Cersei and became ReplacementVarys. He then enabled her plan to destroy her enemies at the Sept Bombing and seemed utterly OK with that, even going so far as to be the one who crowned "Cersei of the House Lannister First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may she reign." So I'm not sure if his loyalty to Cersei is waning.

My guess would be that Qyburn remains loyal. If I was guessing who kills her, my gold dragons would have been on Arya prior to last Sunday, but I think it is unlikely that Arya kills 2/2 of the Big Bads in the story, so I'm not sure who is going to take her out (and I am pretty sure someone will). Maybe Jaime has finally realized the toxic nature of their relationship?

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

With all those dead, they’ll have to burn them right?

No need to without the Night King to resurrect them, I don't think. A simple burial should suffice.

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

there is nobody to put fresh magic into the Wall.

I think Bran, Dany, and the dragon(s) are the only magical creatures left that I can think of. No idea if any of them are capable of repairing The Wall, but it doesn't seem likely.

Edited May 5, 2019 by WhiteStumbler

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

No need to without the Night King to resurrect them, I don't think. A simple burial should suffice.

In the dead of winter (ground will be well and truly frozen), with that many hundreds of thousands of corpses and lots of traumatised survivors who Just Want Rid...I think cremation is probably the easiest and swiftest solution!

Edited May 5, 2019 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I think Bran, Dany, and the dragon(s) are the only magical creatures left that I can think of. No idea if any of them are capable of repairing The Wall, but it doesn't seem likely.

Way back on TWoP (I think) there was a discussion on getting rid of the Wall altogether by the end of the show. That would be a task for Jon, I think. He won the respect of the Wildlings and they fought with him, so it would only be fair to allow them move freely on either side of that Wall. I would expect push back on this idea from Southern politicians who never even met a wildling, so might still think of them as evil snarks and grumpkins. But tearing down the divisions between the 2 peoples (whether physical or metaphorical) would be a satisfying thing for me.

32 minutes ago, Llywela said:

In the dead of winter (ground will be well and truly frozen), with that many hundreds of thousands of corpses and lots of traumatised survivors who Just Want Rid...I think cremation is probably the easiest and swiftest solution!

Not to mention carrying the feeling of just-to-be-sure for the survivors.

[WhiteStumbler]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think cremation is probably the easiest and swiftest solution!

10 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Not to mention carrying the feeling of just-to-be-sure for the survivors.

I am convinced - what is the old saying? "those who have been attacked by an army of the dead fear an inert corpse lying in a field", or something like that?

This sounds like a job for dragon fire.

I like the idea of The Wall coming down (or what is left of it), but wonder if there are even any Wildlings left other than Thormund and a couple of random Wildling redshirts we glimpsed in The Long Night?

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

This sounds like a job for dragon fire.

That makes perfect sense...

12 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Way back on TWoP (I think) there was a discussion on getting rid of the Wall altogether by the end of the show. That would be a task for Jon, I think. He won the respect of the Wildlings and they fought with him, so it would only be fair to allow them move freely on either side of that Wall. I would expect push back on this idea from Southern politicians who never even met a wildling, so might still think of them as evil snarks and grumpkins. But tearing down the divisions between the 2 peoples (whether physical or metaphorical) would be a satisfying thing for me.

Yes, I'd completely forgotten about that discussion, thank you for the memory jog! I suppose that the dragon(s) could take it down perhaps? It's a huge task, and there dont seem to be alot of survivors left, unless there are plenty of folks in the North that were not in a direct pathway of the AotD as they made their way to Winterfell. It's all so unclear. In any case, other than dragons taking down the wall either by fire or by hitting it with their tails, it seems unlikely that men could disassemble that thing. Plus, is there still any 'magic' built into the Wall in other places? We just don't know.

I would be satisfied with the Wall being taken down ONLY if A Show makes it clear in no uncertain terms, that there are no more WWs out there, and that the NK hasn't taken up residence in some other body or form. I guess A Show has mind fucked me to the point where I am not feeling convinced that that whole situation is done for good. I hope I'm wrong though.

[Anothermi]

6 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

what is the old saying? "those who have been attacked by an army of the dead fear an inert corpse lying in a field", or something like that?

Ah, yes. THAT old saw. I remember it well. It's lost a lot of meaning these thousands years hence. (/tongue now removed from cheek)

6 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I like the idea of The Wall coming down (or what is left of it), but wonder if there are even any Wildlings left other than Thormund and a couple of random Wildling redshirts we glimpsed in The Long Night?

I initially thought the same, but those Wildlings have always been a do-my-own-thing kind of people and it wouldn't surprise me if there was a band of don't-quote-facts-at me! who headed even farther north toting all their survival gear. Now they'd be the ones who those "southern politicians" of Westeros would allude to when arguing to re-build that Wall - and make the Wildlings pay for it!!! They could come in very useful to opportunistic types. Nah. There aren't any of THOSE types in Westeros. No Way.

Seriously, who needs White Walkers when the non-magical folks do such a good job of massacring each other.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Seriously, who needs White Walkers when the non-magical folks do such a good job of massacring each other.

I was pleased to note that Tyrion got a line expressing these sentiments in The Last of the Starks episode.

He's talking with Davos who is whinging about how the Lord of Light gets them to fight his war for him, and win, and then just fucks off.  No signs. No blessings. Don't know what he wants. Nowhere to be seen.

Tyrion tells him he will never be happy thinking those thoughts but Davos doesn't want to be happy. Tyrion says "Your in luck. We may have defeated THEM, but we still have us to contend with." (drink)

[janjan]

On 5/5/2019 at 1:48 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

wonder if there are even any Wildlings left other than Thormund and a couple of random Wildling redshirts we glimpsed in The Long Night?

What about Craster's brides? They seemed pretty spunky, but probably not enough to avoid falling down a plot hole.

On 5/5/2019 at 8:38 PM, Anothermi said:

Now they'd [surviving Wildlings] be the ones who those "southern politicians" of Westeros would allude to when arguing to re-build that Wall - and make the Wildlings pay for it!!! They could come in very useful to opportunistic types. Nah. There aren't any of THOSE types in Westeros. No Way.

Have you noticed that Cersei's formerly blond hair has turned kind of orange?

[gingerella]

9 hours ago, janjan said:

Have you noticed that Cersei's formerly blond hair has turned kind of orange?

Tis the hallmark of a shit ruler, methinks...

I've a fear that the last two episodes will be all battle fighting and gore and not enough time left to adequately resolve the future of Westeros. I DO believe that the Iron Throne will fall, based on that dream vision that Dany had long ago when she was cavorting with Pyat Baldhead Creeper, who IIRC also had blue eyes, did he not? Is there a connection between him and WWs? Anyway, that scene had a big hole blown into the roof above the Iron Throne and it was snowing into it, so I'm thinking if that vision becomes a reality, what's the only way to blow a hole in a roof of the Red Keep? Yeah, probably Drogon fire, or a dragon plummeting to the ground and smashing it with his tail? Something like that? So to me that leans more towards the destruction of the Iron Throne towards a more democratic form of governance. But let's seen, A Show can always kill everyone and bum out A Viewer to the max so...I am trying not to become too enamored with a particular outcome.

As for Cersei, please god she has to bite it this Sunday, I've had quite enough of this crazy bitch, Qyburn, and her Mountainstein. I think Jaime left Winterfell to protect Cersei, I think as much as he would like to be the good man that Brienne sees in him, he cannot let go of Cersei and he wants to give it one last go to protect her. And that is where I believe he and Arya will clash, and she will kill him, and use his face to get close enough to Cersei to woo her into a sense of false security and then kill her once they are alone, presumably under the pretense of the last time they'll have incest sex as the battle rages around them, Arya will rip off Jaime's face and let Cersei know that she is the one who's killing her. It has to be this way because Arya has that one name left on her list, right? She has to cross that off before she can rest or move on to whatever.

As for Dany, I feel like there's no way Drogon will make it out alive at the end of A Show, sad as that makes me to write. I think the dragons served a purpose, just like every other aspect of A Show, they had to be reborn in order to make certain events happen, but they feel less important now, especially if Dany dies, or isn't the next Queen, ruler, or whatever.

Edited May 9, 2019 by gingerella

[gingerella]

With one last episode left, I am feeling really let down right now. To me, the battle between the Living and the Dead was the pinnacle of this story and the season and tonight’s battle just rang hollow for some reason. I guess that the magic and the lore have been the stronger pull for this Viewer and it is what has helped me to remain Unsulllied for all these years, and I’m getting antsy that next week we will not have much resolution with the KL situation or the North. I want to Sansa and Brienne and the Winterfell Gang again, and I just want Dany disposed of already. I wonder if Dany is killed, will Drogon die too? Like, he cannot survive if she does not survive? If she isn’t endgame, they can’t have a look dragon hanging about!  And as I am typing this, I’m starting to wonder if Arya will use someone’s face to get close enough to kill Dany. And if so, who’s face? Jon’s? I want him to be alive at the end of this...I want Team Stark to be standing...

[WhiteStumbler]

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

I’m starting to wonder if Arya will use someone’s face to get close enough to kill Dany.

I think Arya was riding towards the Red Keep (or what remains of it), and I think there is a new star in her play I’m Going to Kings Landing and Kill the Queen. 

I don’t think Arya will need one of her faces to kill Dany - she didn’t need one to kill the NK. 

Interesting spec about Drogon not surviving Dany’s death - since she “gave birth” to the dragons, he can’t survive after she is gone?

[DirewolfPup]

The day went better for those with property on the south side of King's Landing.

[Pallas]

On 5/5/2019 at 3:29 AM, Anothermi said:

Way back on TWoP (I think) there was a discussion on getting rid of the Wall altogether by the end of the show. That would be a task for Jon, I think.

We did discuss the melting of the Wall, and its taking place in concert with the melting of the Iron Throne, an image I've doted on for years. And here we are: the Iron Throne has likely been melted by dragonfire. But the act made a sick joke of the image. Unless Dany Warcrimes happened to spare the Throne Room and it now accords with her earlier vision -- except covered with ash, not snow. 

All right. I'd imagined that after Dany dies, Jon lays down his sword and his birthright and retires in his 20's to the frozen north. But I'm less and less sure that he survives next Sunday. We know now that even with the Night King dispatched, the Lord of Light still wants Jon in the line-up for some reason. I think Jon Snow, Second of His Life, was brought back to take the last Targaryen with him, this time.

As noted in the episode thread, it would make sense for Dany to have immediately flown back north and blitzkrieged Winterfell (and the Iron Islands too, pausing only to sear Nymeria and her wolfpack, as well as the Godswood and a flock of baby seals). But Varys's letters have landed somewhere. My bet's on Yara and the new Prince of Dorne as the new Fortinbras, both showing up outside King's Landing, where Jon's retreated. Sansa and Brienne as well, because. With Bran left to serve as the A Stark in Winterfell, but not removed from the action. 

So I'm guessing that once the players are assembled, the drama ends in the ruined Throne Room, where twenty years ago it first "ended" with the Kingslayer and the Mad King. And after Dany's death, when Drogon dies, warged by Bran -- who's already shared with him a flight above King's Landing -- the dragon's fall will collapse what's left of what his own ancestors brought into being. Kings ending.

Will there be eggs left behind? A cut to the last few Children of the Forest, deciding (as all children do) that they can do better than their elders, and create a less austere, more approachable champion? Now there's a job for Tormund!

[Anothermi]

On 5/16/2019 at 11:10 AM, Pallas said:

I'd imagined that after Dany dies, Jon lays down his sword and his birthright and retires in his 20's to the frozen north. But I'm less and less sure that he survives next Sunday. We know now that even with the Night King dispatched, the Lord of Light still wants Jon in the line-up for some reason. I think Jon Snow, Second of His Life, was brought back to take the last Targaryen with him, this time.

I like the idea of both Jon and Tyrion ending at Castle Black - both pissing off the top of the Wall. They'll be the hermits on the Wall. In ten years they'll be thought of as long dead and part of the stories Old Nans all over Westeros tell children at bedtime. Only new intrepids will dare to visit the Wall to find they are alive and spouting some kind of unintelligible wisdom. /flight of final fancy

I don't follow how the LoL is still in play that his wanting or not wanting Jon in "the lineup" would have any affect on anything. I thought all the LoL believers have died. Their Job successfully executed.

On 5/16/2019 at 11:10 AM, Pallas said:

And here we are: the Iron Throne has likely been melted by dragonfire. But the act made a sick joke of the image.

No. Not quite the grandiose vision we had spitballed way back then.

It's made me wonder about that scene in Quarth where Dany seemed to have to choose between two options: Her dead love and child (presented, at least, as a warm and loving place)  OR the empty, destroyed shell of her dream to return "home" to the place of her birth and her family's greatest achievements. (a cold and unforgiving place)

Neither vision was appealing.

On 5/16/2019 at 11:10 AM, Pallas said:

Will there be eggs left behind? A cut to the last few Children of the Forest, deciding (as all children do) that they can do better than their elders, and create a less austere, more approachable champion? Now there's a job for Tormund!

Hee! The new, lovable,   REDWALKER.  

(Also very good at killing)

Edited May 20, 2019 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

37 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I like the idea of both Jon and Tyrion ending at Castle Black - both pissing off the top of the Wall. They'll be the hermits on the Wall. In ten years they'll be thought of as long dead and part of the stories Old Nans all over Westeros tell children at bedtime. Only new intrepids will dare to visit the Wall to find they are alive and spouting some kind of unintelligible wisdom. /flight of final fancy

I don't follow how the LoL is still in play that his wanting or not wanting Jon in "the lineup" would have any affect on anything. I thought all the LoL believers have died. Their Job successfully executed.

I love that idea too @Anothermi! But I don't know what's left of Castle Black. I think it was only Castle East that was destroyed by Visereon, yes? I suppose the rest of the Wall is there...I wonder if we will see the Wall taken down by Dany in one last crazed flight of fancy? Perhaps en route to try and kill Sansa for giving Dany both side eye and snark? I am imagining that Sam will be the scribe to all of this adventure and history and write it all down, with Gilly's help as well since she can document life beyond the Wall as Craster's House of Incest.

I also don't get the final end game for the LoL but I don't think everyone that follows the LoL is dead actually. There were other red women in Pentos or Essos or wherever it was that Tyrion and Varys escaped to in the aftermath of Joff's death. Remember that? There was a lady preaching in the chaos of that city and she was noted as a priestess of the LoL IIRC.

We've spitballed that The Wall will be taken down at the end of this, but really, the only way that could happen is if Dany goes and torches it down with Drogon, men cannot disassemble that behemoth structure. As for the Quarth vision, I'd completely forgotten about the part where Dany sees her dead baby, isn't Drogo there too, IIRC? If so, I'm now betting that she dies on her sword and perhaps does a Tommen off what's left of the Red Keep, with visions of Drogo and baby? I could see that happening. But I prefer it to be more like Arya wears someone's face to kill Dany, because that feels more like A Show to me. Then again, Dany seems broken now, she's won what she wanted, but she got it in such a way that she will never ever be seen as a savior or breaker of chains, she's just a mass murderer and a terrorist now. Her entire raison d'être is moot now. There is nothing left for her, no way to redeem herself, and I think in a moment of clarity she may see/know that and kill herself.

I have no way to know what the Unsullied or Dothraki will do without her, but it's an interesting conundrum because it seems like the Dothraki cannot live peacefully, they thrive on violence, so I dont see a place for them in Westeros now, they must go back across the Narrow Sea, but who would take them? The Unsullied I could see populating Westeros I suppose. I think Grey Worm will die tonight, somehow, he has nothing to live for now, he is simply living Hate after seeing Missandei killed. I can only hope that Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Bran, and Sam all survive as the credits roll...but what sort of world they will inherit, I just don't know. I'm too afraid to guess something nicer because A Show is a bitch to pretty much everyone.

[Anothermi]

39 minutes ago, gingerella said:

isn't Drogo there too, IIRC?

Yes. I referred to him as "her dead love". I don't think she got to see her dead baby except in that vision at the tower in Qarth.

39 minutes ago, gingerella said:

she's just a mass murderer and a terrorist now.

I prefer to think of her as "mower of roofs". (hee. How the mighty have fallen) Sorry. Still can't take that whole goes-crazy thing seriously.

39 minutes ago, gingerella said:

The Unsullied I could see populating Westeros I suppose.

They ARE the other castrati IIRC. But perhaps not "root & stem" like Varys. Still, I'm not sure about "populating" anyplace. That wasn't what they were made for. But they could still remain there - maybe even peaceably.

39 minutes ago, gingerella said:

the Dothraki cannot live peacefully, they thrive on violence, so I dont see a place for them in Westeros now, they must go back across the Narrow Sea, but who would take them?

If they can make it as a group across the sea, I think they would be the ones doing the taking. (once they've regained horses) not the other way around. Lay low... build up some power... then their back, terrorizing the little people in the deserts of Essos.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

We're one hour away from launch, and I can feel my anxiety ramping up, my jaw clenching just thinking about shit I DONT want to happen, and feeling nervous for make believe characters that have no real bearing on my life. I wonder if Bookwalkers and the Spoilered are feeling the same? I wonder if they are as disillusioned with this final season as most of us seem to have been. I wonder if, knowing all the added info they know, somehow the end won't be as miserable because they, Bookwalkers, know A Show isn't really the same as their Books...

And since @Anothermi mentioned Qarth again, Pyeet whateverthehellhisname was keeps popping into my mind not only because of the vision he showed Dany, but also because, as I mentioned upthread, didn't he have creepy blue eyes? Who else had creepy blue eyes? WW's, that's who. I wonder if there is a connection between the two and if we'll learn it tonight. I'm still firmly thinking that someone we know well will close their eyes, then open them and they'll be BLUE. Only Bran comes to mind for obvious reasons. But what of Arya and the Azor Azai or whatever Mel called him/her? Will that thread, and the LoL thread in general be addressed? I'm not holding my breath given the level of writing this season, but it will suck if it's not addressed since they were huge plot lines for years.

The only person I think is "safe" is Sam. And Gilly and Little Sam. Everyone else is up for misery, sadly. I'm sure there are folks out there who think a happy or satisfying ending is sappy, but after nine years and eight seasons, I'd rather like to see these main characters survive and rebuild their world for the better. But that's a utopian fantasy and this world has been nothing if not dystopian, so I'm nervous for Team Stark tonight. And Tyrion. And Davos and Brienne...

[Pallas]

What I expect to mourn tonight won't be the dead but the missing: the missing story. 

Valar morghulis, Unsullied. 

[gingerella]

11 minutes ago, Pallas said:

What I expect to mourn tonight won't be the dead but the missing: the missing story. 

Valar morghulis, Unsullied. 

Valar dohaeris*, friends...

*I probably got that wrong, like so much of A Show...

Edited May 20, 2019 by gingerella

[gingerella]

Not quite one week on and I've been thinking of how much energy, effort, time and thought we've put into this Unsullied Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread over the last 5 years here. We have amassed 36 pages comprised of over 1,800 posts, with a view count of over 258,300+, not to mention the contributions of soooo many of our Unsullied brothers and sisters who are have been lured or pushed over to the Spoilered or Bookwalker realms. That is a shitload of speculation! And what do we now have to show for it? A big fat wet turd of a finale. Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad my beloved characters survived, but...I could have withstood a few deaths IF they'd made sense and been well-written (ie: Arya or Jon dies killing Dany).

What did we speculate about that we now have zero resolution on?

Jon's parentage - what was the point of that when, in the end he's sent to The Wall again and goes North with  the Free Folk?

Lord of Light - what was the point of that when, after Mel's mission has come to fruition, we never mention the LoL again? Couldn't the LoL have helped quell Dany's insanity? I'm guessing yes...

A Girl is No One - what was the point of Arya becoming a face changing assassin if she was only going to use that skill once to take out House Frey? She could have used that skill in many other key points in A Show, like killing Grey Worm and taking his face to kill Dany.

Dragons - what was the point of reducing it to only Drogon and having him allegedly roaming Westeros alone? Isn't that very dangerous? Are we to believe a bereft dragon is on the loose over Westeros and everyone's like "oh yeah, oh hey King Bran, why don't you warg into him and see what innocents he's been killing mkay?'

Robin of House Mentally Deficient - what was the point of making it clear that Lord Robin was a mental idiot, only to have him mosey on back to participate in choosing the damn King? Do the writers not remember that they hit us over the head with story and dialogue that made it clear that Robin wasn't right in Ye Olde Noggin?!? A Viewer Remembers!

Someone else help me finish this list, I'm about to have an migraine just thinking about the amount of lost storylines the show runners just shat upon and then flushed forever down the loo...

Edited May 26, 2019 by gingerella