Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[DirewolfPup]

Oh ChocButterfly, why would you say such a thing!!???!  Sansa married to Ramsey Bolton.  AHHH make the visions go away!

[gingerella]

ChocoButt, you take that back right this minute! Do you hear me?! TAKEITBACKNOW!

[stillshimpy]

Oh gods almighty, what the hell, chocbutterfly, that is so scary and so likely too.  

 

So thank god for two things:  She's already married and Tyrion's not dead.  

 

Also, whereas LF sucks, Sansa knows who killed Robb and Catelyn.  

 

No way, no how, nuh uh would she go for that.  Littlefinger does want something from her .....and he already promised her to Robyn, remember?  

[DirewolfPup]

I hope you're right, shimpy. Plus, Roose Bolton would have Sansa killed immediately just because she's a Stark, and Starks in Winterfell are bad news for Boltons.

[ChocButterfly]

I'm so sorry, I didn't mean for my mind to there, but now I can't think of something else!!!!! The horror!!

 

Well, let's think of other possible scenarios. If it's LF who's marrying, who could he be engaged to? Another one of Walder's daughters? What would he gain with that? Who else is left from the major houses?  No one practically. Maybe it's a princess from Dorne, but they haven't mentioned any. And why would the Dornians accept such a deal? Unless it's with Theon's sister (ha!), if she's still alive. But I don't think she'd consent to that.

 

If it's Sansa who's marrying, maybe....Oh, I got it, maybe he broke a deal with the Tyrells and she could end up with Loras after all! But don't think they'd go against the Lanisters so openly, that'd 

be treason.

 

Well, help me here. You guys have better speculation powers than me.

[stillshimpy]

If it's Sansa who's marrying, maybe....Oh, I got it, maybe he broke a deal with the Tyrells and she could end up with Loras after all! But don't think they'd go against the Lanisters so openly, that'd be treason.

 

Dude, seriously, she's supposed to be engaged to Robyn.  Remember when they were sort of building snow castles in the Eeyrie and Robyn talked about that not long before smacking him the face?  

 

That's how that went, right?  Robyn was being fairly normal, for once and talked about when he was the Lord of the Vale and she was the Lady.  Then he proved why inbreeding is such a bad idea in the first place.  

[ChocButterfly]

Ok, that's a little more comforting. Although I don't know how engagements work there, since Bronn was engaged to Lolly and now he isn't anymore, plus there was literally no one but LF to authorize the engagement. And Cersei was engaged to "the Prince" and that didn't happened either. Soooo, who's LF marrying then?

[DirewolfPup]

I hope LF is arranged to be married. Who really knows how much time has passed since S04E08 when we last saw them, but wouldn't he need to mourn for at least a few months before arranging a new marriage?

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, seriously, who is Littlefinger going to marry?  I can't think of anyone we've met that makes sense.  Can't be a Frey daughter.  Petyr sucks, but I'm not sure he'd marry the daughter of the guy who slit Cat's throat (although he might).  Bolton doesn't have a daughter.   

 

Didn't Bear Island just send something to The Wall about how the only King they recognized was named Robb Stark?  Maybe a daughter from that area?  

 

We can safely assume it's not Brienne, I assume.  Is there a lady attached to Harrenhall in any capacity?  

 

We do know it's LF though, because Sansa said something like, "I thought you were still mourning my beloved Aunt" rather dryly for one who used to have such romantic notions.  

 

Maybe the older sister of Bronn's formerly intended?  Oooooh, or a Princess from Dorne?  They are bound to have those, right?  They hate all things Lannister, so maybe? 

Edited April 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Choco: LF said his marriage proposal had been accepted! Who on earth is he marrying?? Or, or.....could it be...? No I hope not! But what if, if he's actually bethroting Sansa!!! He is now her "uncle" by marriage after all. What if his offering Sansa to the freaking Boltons!!!!!!!! That way, they'd have a legitimate claim to the North. We know who the heir of the Boltons is now.......Ramsey!!! I shudder just thinking about it.

Oooooh noooooo! Choco, you just might have called it! Owww! LF didn't show Sansa the ravengram and didn't tell her much about it -- was that because it concerned her betrothal, not his? She is still married, but LF could be assuming that Cersei will widow her soon. And Bolton has legimitized Ramsey, making him the heir to Winterfell (Roose has no sons that we know of).

 

Even though I have a deep and irrational dislike of Sansa (as the previous three posts have rightly pointed out), I don't wish that on her.

[stillshimpy]

Even though I have a deep and irrational dislike of Sansa (as the previous three posts have rightly pointed out), I don't wish that on her.

 

Well, there's a bunch of reasons that it likely isn't the case.  For one, pretty much nothing Roose Bolton does is going to win over true Stark supporters.  He murdered as many of them as he could get his hands on, including the "FOR SHAME" move of the Kingdoms:  woman and babies (they clearly knew poor Talisa was pregnant, they stabbed her to death in the baby, for goodness sake) .  

 

So anyone that might be woo'd towards the new Warden of the North because of a family tie to the Starks really doesn't take much wooing.  

 

Also, see above about how the last we heard, Robyn was talking about marrying her (which admittedly was before Lyssa took the big sky drop, so that might be off).    There's a real possibility that Littlefinger merely views Sansa as a pawn, but I think he also intrigued her as a potential....I'm not even sure what....cohort more than anything....when she lied so convincingly to the lord and lady at the Vale trial about LF's role in Lyssa's death.  

 

I mean, it's possible, it is just pretty unlikely.  Plus, Bolton is a Lannister Ally and guess who really, really, oh did I mention really, wants Sansa dead?  

 

The Queen mother.   

 

So....not too likely on a lot of fronts.  

 

As for the irrational dislike of Sansa, on a lot of levels, I get it.  But she's a teen girl who has been through too much.   I get it though, she seems poised to be Cersei revisited, so we have seen the trajectory that kind of bitterness and loss of loved ones can take.   Personally, I also developed an irrational dislike this episode.  I know Elaria Sand had a truly emotionally scarring experience.  

 

That said, she's not behaving in a way Oberyn would support.  Start caring up Myrcella?  Maybe Elaria is Ramsay's soul(less)mate. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

Yeah. I get the sense that a lot of characters are just totally loosing their marbles.

 

Eleria is willing to carve up children because Oberyn died in a fair fight that he signed up for. As much as we love Oberyn, that's all on him and the Mountain. If she wants to kill the Mountain, I'd get that. Murdering Cersei's daughter because she's in close proximity is especially cruel. One thing I mentioned to my watching-mate: if some Martell or Dornish person took Mycella's necklace away from her, wouldn't she be, I don't know, afraid? worried? concerned? Did someone steal the necklace from her in the dead of night, and Mycella didn't notice? Mycella could be so in love with Dorne, that she voluntarily gave up the necklace. I don't know. That all seemed fishy to me.

 

Brienne. Oh my lordy, Brienne. You are one of the strongest fighters in Westeros. Just stop pledging yourself to people then leaving. You can't protect people while you're away. Then when they die, you get blamed even if you had nothing to do with it. What if Jamie dies? What then? Just add that to your list of perceived failures. You'll have to sell that nice armor just to earn a living.

Even though I want Sansa away from LF stat, kidnapping is not the way to go. Seriously, girl. Get your shit together.

 

Dany: Don't praise the western system of fair trials, then turn around and say "This guy killed a man awaiting trial. We can't abide by this, so public execution. Yup, that sounds good!" If you're rewarding the Masters with a fair trial, then not giving one to the freed people, that looks really, really bad. Why didn't he get a fair trial? I seriously just don't get it. I do sympathize here. There were no right answers. If she publicly executed the rouge Master, that type of rule would harken back to her father, King Aegon (?) and that would be no bueno for Westeros if she ever wanted to rule. I suppose, fairness isn't a concern if you've been enslaved your whole life, so that choice doesn't bode well for your freed folk.

[janjan]

Personally, I also developed an irrational dislike this episode.  I know Elaria Sand had a truly emotionally scarring experience. ... That said, she's not behaving in a way Oberyn would support.

Word and word again, Shimpy. I didn't even recognize her with her new haircut -- I thought at first that she was Oberyn's wife (the reason he spent so much time in brothels). And her new personality! Not that we saw much of her personality before, but she seemed nice enough. But her venom [there go those snakes again] dishonors Oberyn's memory. I like the brother, and I hope he can keep her reined in. Or maybe big burly guard dude can. But I'm not optimistic.

 

[WhiteStumbler]

Roose has no heirs (other than Ramsay) at the moment, but he did just marry. I don't see how having Ramsay marry Sansa would help Roose's claim on The North. Ramsay + Sansa would help Ramsay's claim, but not his, and Roose doesn't seem the kind of guy to do favors for anyone.

When LF told Sansa they were going "To a land so far from here, even Cersei Lannister can't get her hands on you.", they were still in The Vale and heading west, and the only things west of The Vale is Harrenhal, The Twins, and the Iron Islands. Though if you drift a little south-west there is Riverrun, and west of there is Casterly Rock I think.

Do we know if Kevan Lannister is currently married? I know he has a son (Lancel), but, of the four Houses to the west (Frey, Baelish <who rules Harrenhal>, Greyjoy, and Tully <currently under the rule of Frey>) only Lannister seems to fit the bill. (ETA: as a possible source of a husband for Sansa)

Edited April 20, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

only Lannister seems to fit the bill. (ETA: as a possible source of a husband for Sansa)

 

Only....wouldn't that prove somewhat problematic because Cersei is still screaming for Sansa Stark's head?  

Edited April 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Kevan gives zero shits about Cersei and, as the presumed Lord of Casterly Rock (Jaime is Kingsguard, and Tyrion is on the run and wanted for hand-icide), he would probably have the power to tell Cersei to go get stuffed.

 

I'm not ready to launch this spitball yet, I'm still weighing it. I guess it all hinges on who LF was referring to when he said "My marriage proposal has been accepted." Who's getting married? Himself, Robin, or Sansa??

[90PercentGravity]

I think it depends on how willing LF is to cross the Lanisters. Anything involving Sansa is going to be problematic, unless he's shipping her across the narrow sea, which is maybe possible. But then, what's in it for him? Unless he intends to trade Sansa for a better castle.

[gingerella]

Wellll, regarding who it would be if it's Sansa's betrothal, I'd say perhaps across the Narrow Sea since LF did say "as far away as possible..." Could be Volantis and some royal House there, since Robb and Talisa were married and she was from Volantis. Though it does beg the question if that is possible if Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion, though if she told LF they never consummated their union, perhaps that's a Westerosi loophole?  Now if LF was talking about himself, which would look odd to others since he wife just died right, maybe he's gunning for the Greyjoy girl? That old coot would love some cash for his tomboy, he's got no morals at all that guy.  And the Iron Islands are across or in a/the sea, right? Mireen is out I think, not a lot of options there for marriage or otherwise. Oh wait! What about Pentos? Who is of marriage age in Pentos? Or Braavos? I think they're headed across the sea, closer to Arya. It would be sad if Arya and Sansa were in Braavos but Arya was already A Girl on her way to being Nobody, and Sansa did not recognize her. That? Would give me the sads real bad, but I could totally see that happening, though not for a long time as I'm sure it takes a long time for A Girl to get to where A Man is now.

 

The only other betrothal would be he is marrying off Robin to someone far away, and getting someone to take Robin off his hands permanently...if so, I tip my hat to LF. That teat sucking nutbar is a PITA.

[ChocButterfly]

I don't think there's any reason for LF to go to to the other continent, or sent Sansa there. For him, that's not where the action is. He's trying to gain power in Westeros, why leave across the sea?

 

Now, I think some posters have mentioned he said they'd go as far as west where Cersei cannot reach Sansa? Cause, really the most western thing I think is the Iron Islands, no? But I'm never that clear when they show the places in the credits. I believe only the Greyjoys and Dorne are actively against the Lannisters. Well, and Stannis, of course, but he's a little busy right now. So maybe he is getting married to Theon's sister after all. But what would he gain with that? Or what would the Greyjoys want with that? And I don't think Theon's sister would approve. She seems to have a mind of her own, I don't think she'd let herself get into an arranged marriage, but who knows. But there's also the fact that Sansa believes it was the Greyjoys who killed her 2 brothers and burned Winterfell...

[DirewolfPup]

ooh. What if LF was taking Sansa to Highgarden?  Olenna, who was in on the Joffrey murdering plan, would obviously keep Sansa's identity a secret.

[stillshimpy]

But there's also the fact that Sansa believes it was the Greyjoys who killed her 2 brothers and burned Winterfell...

 

And betrayed Robb, and seized Winterfell, led to  Maester Luwin's death and mirdered Ser Rodrik.  Only he really did those things.  

 

We also don't know that Theon wouldn't have killed Bran and Rickon.  

 

It's not like Theon is some poor,  falsely accused soul.  He's just been so horribly punished that it's hard to believe even his treacherous crimes could warrant that treatment, because essentially nothing really could.  

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: (Theon) just been so horribly punished that it's hard to believe even his treacherous crimes could warrant that treatment...

I believe that Theon/Reek's crimes warrant his treatment. I most definitely I believe it. I want people to give Reek things (a clean shirt, neosporin) just so that Ramsay can take them away. He would still be hanging from the "X" 24-7 if I had my way.

[gingerella]

I'm with WS on this, don't feel sorry for that little fuckwit at all. I also wish he'd just die already, because A Show seems to torture A Viewer with the longevity of the most heinous of characters whilst the perfectly good ones perish in awful ways. But yeah, cannot feel sorry for Theon/Reek at all, though would love to see him die and be off my screen already. He just isn't interesting to me at all now. And he is past redemption.

[ChocButterfly]

You're right shimpy, what Theon did was just as bad. And yeah, he probably would have killed the kids.

 

But I don't agree that he deserves what Ramsey has done to him. I believe he deserves to get all his titles and gold taken, get imprisoned for life, forced labor, and even deserves death. But no one deserves to be physically tortured like that.

 

I like the thought that LF could take Sansa to Highgarden, Direwolf. Actually makes sense, since the Tyrells are in cahoots with him. Is LF going to marry Olenna? Hahaha!

[janjan]

Is LF going to marry Olenna? Hahaha!

Don't laugh, Choco. Mrs. Peel is the best female around, and she's the only one James Bond actually married! Or else, maybe LF will marry Margie. Olenna isn't optimistic about the future of the Lannisters -- remember her chiding Tywin about his debts to the Iron Bank. And she can no doubt see, as we can, how Cersei is actively running the Lannister regime into the ground. Margie wants to be queen, and they might figure that LF will be the last man standing in "The Wars to Come." They're oblivious to the threat from beyond the Wall, of course.

 

I don't see why Theon didn't die of sepsis. The whole procedure wasn't exactly sterile,and he was already kinda run down.But before he does die (horribly, we hope), let us give three cheers for the work of Alfie Allen. He and Jack Gleeson both deserve Emmys.

[gingerella]

Aw man, after reding Choco's post now I am not sure what I think of Theon's current fate. But I would like him to die already because, still not interested.

[stillshimpy]

But I don't agree that he deserves what Ramsey has done to him. I believe he deserves to get all his titles and gold taken, get imprisoned for life, forced labor, and even deserves death. But no one deserves to be physically tortured like that.

 

I agree with that.  I don't think any person could ever deserve what happened to Theon.  

 

I wish he'd die and leave my screen forever and if he somehow snaps to and kills Ramsay on his way out?  Whee!  

 

Doesn't mean I'd forgive him, because what he has done is unforgivable.  I just wouldn't wish what happened to him on anyone.  I wouldn't even wish it on Ramsay.  Or  Joffrey.    

 

 

 

But I would like him to die already because, still not interested.

 

This is where I remain and am not budging from when it comes to Theon.  Just die, please.  He's pitiful and yeah, I'm with (and have always been) with Choc on that.  No living being could ever deserve that treatment.  Dude, I treat carrots better than that.  Sure, I similarly peel them, chop off parts of them that probably seem vital to them, but then it's done, it's over.  

 

It's on to the Carrot the Afterlife and reincarnation machine for them.  Sweet Potatoes.  Man, do I ever have it in for them too, but again, swift in my mercilessness.  

 

I was going to say that no sentient creature could deserve Theon's fate, but I'm sort of not entirely sure Theon even completely qualifies any more.  

 

Dude did wrong, and boy has that dude paid.  Send him to the Carrot Afterlife, or mulch him or something, but get. it .over. with. because whereas the actor has done incredible work, it's just a story that is spinning its wheels.  "Hi! This is here primarily to horrify you! Is it working?"  

 

ETA:  So this literally just happened:  As I was sitting here typing this, I heard an unholy ruckus coming from outside.  Sounded kind of clangy and bangy, but on a small scale.  So I finished up the post thinking, "Man, I should really go see what that is...." which is something I don't usually do, because where I live, some critter or other is usually making some kind of noise.   

We'd painted our screened in porch and just hung up all the screens again over the weekend.  Somehow a squirrel squeezed in in a gap between the hot-tub and its moorings below the floor.  He was freaking the hell out.  Climbing two-story screens.  In a complete squirrel panic, chattering and lashing his tail and his mood was NOT improved by the entrance of yours truly.   I told him, "Whoa, whoa! How did you even get in here?  Hold on, hold on.  Hold on, I'll open the door.  I mean you no harm.  It will be okay"  (which if you have ever wondered if you can talk a squirrel down from a panic?  Turns out you can't.  Live and learn).  

 

And I propped open the screen door out onto the deck with one of the paint cans that is still out there, and turned to head inside figuring that once I was gone, he'd blunder his way out to it and I could close it again before something else got in.   

Before I could even get through the connecting door to the house, the squirrel spotted the open door and dashed through it and off to freedom.  

Ladies and gentlemen:  That poor squirrel had more wits about him than Theon currently does.  

 

Just let the poor wretch die already.  

Edited April 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Send [Theon] to the Carrot Afterlife, or mulch him or something, but get. it .over. with. because whereas the actor has done incredible work, it's just a story that is spinning its wheels.  "Hi! This is here primarily to horrify you! Is it working?"

Well said, Shimpy. The only reason I can think of for keeping Theon alive is the possibility that, when Stannis moves on Winterfell with his outnumbered army [really? Outnumbered by Boltons? But that's what A Show would have us believe], Reek will somehow come back to Theon-ness and turn the tide. And then... and then ... a horrible thought just crept into my mind like a squirrel under a hot tub: Stannis, thinking all the Stark males are dead, could reward Theon by making him Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. [Oh horrors!] Luckily, it would be just a one-generation dynasty. We do have Ramsey to thank for that.

[ChocButterfly]

Yeah, agree with everyone, Theo should just die already! He's not even a character anymore and he has no plot of further purpose that I know of.

 

I'm now obsessing about the face-changing assassins and Arya's plot. What is the range of their body changing power? Are they hired assassins or do they serve a larger purpose? Because if they're for hired, it doesn't matter how expensive they are, EVERYONE who has wanted anyone dead in this show should have hired them!  

 

I also understand now quite well why A Man speaks of himself in the third person. He's actually no one, so he's just A Man. He (or they, I'm definitely on the side that there must be several of them in association) probably had to abandoned his original appearance to become what he is, so he is no one and everyone. Who knows what he actually looks like in real life. I wonder how long it'll take Arya to start referring as herself as "A Girl". Of course, something like this must take years, and years to master. I hope they don't drag that story too much, I want to see it advancing.

 

Janjan: Don't laugh, Choco. Mrs. Peel is the best female around, and she's the only one James Bond actually married!

That's an interesting factoid! I suppose she died in the original Bond's series. I don't see Bond being married for long. I don't really watch those movies.

 

Well, I'm looking forward to read more of your speculations, guys. But I'm back at work, I was on vacation, :(. I'm still obsessing about this show either way, he!

[gingerella]

I wonder how long it'll take Arya to start referring as herself as "A Girl". Of course, something like this must take years, and years to master. I hope they don't drag that story too much, I want to see it advancing.

See, this is what I'm wondering too, but more along the lines of if/when Arya gets to a level where she is No One and can change her facial appearance, what if she finally does meet up with Sansa or one of her siblings, will she be able to show her face to them or not? I would hate to lose the current actress because I lerve her so much, but if Jaquen is still able to use that face, then there is hope for our Arya to be able to share character duties if/when she begins face shifting too.

 

Which brings me back to thinking that LF is bringing Sansa to Braavos, I don't know why, I just feel it because it would mean Arya could likely not meet her sister. I would not be at all surprised if she actually sees Sansa but is told she is not allowed to let her know she is there, thus creating a huge emotional struggle for Arya...or not...perhaps in that situation she would not care much since she wasn't all that close to Sansa anyway. In many ways, I feel like Arya has emotionally switched off any love feelings she may have harbored for family. It's more like her love has transitioned to revenge to fuel her mission in killing everyone on her list, which BTW, seems to have grown radically shorter than last time we heard her list all the names, or is it just me?

Edited April 22, 2015 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

Oh but if Sansa shows up in Braavos with Littlefinger, what will Arya think went down there?  I mean, Arya might not actually hate Littlefinger to actual death, but does she know for sure that he recognized her (he did) and didn't tell Tywin (he clearly didn't).  

 

 

 

but if Jaquen is still able to use that face, then there is hope for our Arya to be able to share character duties if/when she begins face shifting too.

 

But there's not guarantee that was Jaquen's original face.  Maybe the one face he can never assume is his own.  Thereby making him faceless rather than a man of many faces.  He said there is no Jaquen Ha'qar (oh god, I can't remember his name at all right now).  

 

He could be Benjen for all we know.   

Edited April 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Choco: I'm now obsessing about the face-changing assassins and Arya's plot. What is the range of their body changing power? Are they hired assassins or do they serve a larger purpose?

Ja'qen serves the Red God, who demanded three lives in exchange for the three Arya saved [from the fire on the road to the wall]. Didn't matter who -- babies, grandmothers, whatever, just so it was three lives. That god is an equal-opportunity people-eater. We don't know what the faceless folk do when they're not out making the numbers jibe. They're for sure not for hire.

 

Reek has occasionally shown a glimmer of inner existence -- subtle and fleeting, but there. (Again, kudos to Alfie Allen -- it was just a momentary facial expression.) Once was when Ramsey set the dogs on the girl they were chasing, and the other was when Roose announced that he had killed Robb Stark (he didn't really but close enough). At that moment, Reek was holding a straight razor to Ramsey's throat, and he hesitated just a split second before obediently resuming the shave. So he's in there, somewhere, and I hope A Show is keeping him alive because he's gonna pop out and do something consequential one of these days. If he doesn't, then he's only on there for cheap thrills, HBO-style, and that is beneath GoT.

 

Yes, Olenna died despite James Bond's best efforts to save her. She was the Countess of Something or Other then, and she came back as the Lady of High Garden. Not a bad trade.

[Pallas]

LF said his marriage proposal had been accepted! Who on earth is he marrying?? Or, or.....could it be...? No I hope not! But what if, if he's actually bethroting Sansa!!!

 

Or else, maybe LF will marry Margie. Olenna isn't optimistic about the future of the Lannisters -- remember her chiding Tywin about his debts to the Iron Bank. And she can no doubt see, as we can, how Cersei is actively running the Lannister regime into the ground. Margie wants to be queen, and they might figure that LF will be the last man standing in "The Wars to Come." They're oblivious to the threat from beyond the Wall, of course.

 

What a great back-and-forth about who each of the betrotheds might be!  Littlefinger's becoming engaged to Margaery does tie several things together: Sansa and Littlefinger's destination somewhere safe from Cersei; Littlefinger and Olenna's successful plot to kill Joffrey; and also, Margaery's musing to Loras that Cersei might only "perhaps" become her mother-in-law.  That seemed obviously ominous for Cersei, but the remark would also work if Margaery now had another husband in mind.  

 

I'm not sure though, since Olenna's son is still Lord of Highgarden, and at least appears deeply enthralled to Cersei.  (But who knows?  Maybe Olenna really couldn't have produced an altogether stupid son...)  Then again, A Show has laid it on about how girls and women of all ages are betrothed at the behest of their male relations, and Littlefinger did render up for us that nice piece of exposition about how and why he is now responsible for Sansa. Yet another benighted betrothal would also fit in with Sansa's curse, her fractured fairy tale.  So  I salute ChocButterfly on her flier, and say I'm in: the betrothal is one that Littefinger has brokered for Sansa.

 

 With who?  What about Walder Frey?  He's a widower again...

[gingerella]

Walder Frey?!? Seriously Pallas, did you really have to go there? Now its your turn, TAKEITBACK right this minute! You guys are giving me indigestion with these hideous spitballs!

ETA: IIRC, the Frey place isnt that far from Lyssa's place and LF did say he was taking Sansa far, far away and to the West yes? I dont think that would be Chez Frey.

Edited April 23, 2015 by gingerella

[Jan Snow]

I'm going with Ramsay Bolton:

 

- The Boltons hold on the north must be tenuous at best, with the strong remaining loyalty for the Starks as evidenced by Mormont's niece's letter to Stannis.

- With Tywin gone, their alliance to the Lannisters is one that exists only in name. (I don't see Cersei lifting one eyebrow for them)

- A marriage to the "one remaining" Stark (she has been called “the key to the North” since before the red wedding) would go a long way in legitimising their hold on the north.

- Sansas marriage to Tyrion can be waved away as null and void, since it was a) never consummated and b) to a known king and handslayer and traitor. 

- She would be out of Cerseis reach, as Littlefinger said, since the Lannisters are in no position to come and take her up there. 

 

Thats them, what I'm missing is what Littlefinger gets out of it unless he is planning to red-wed them in some way (secret dealings with other northern lords perhaps?).

Edited April 23, 2015 by Jan Snow

[WhiteStumbler]

The Twins (Chez Frey) are to the West of the Eyrie, but I don't think they qualify as "a land so far from here, even Cersei Lannister can't get her hands on you." In fact, Cat said in S2 "I have known Lord Walder since I was a girl. He would never harm me. Unless there was a profit in it," and I assume there is a very LARGE price on Sansa's head, so Frey is unlikely. Braavos is east, so anything across the Narrow Sea is out. The Summer Isles, where Tyrions goddess of tits and wine lives?

[Pallas]

Thinking about this some more...we should probably remember that Littlefinger lies.  He lies especially well, and especially gleefully, by omission.  His telling Sansa that he is taking her somewhere that Cersei cannot get her hands on her...may well be true.  But why?  Perhaps because he's had in mind, all along, bartering her back to Cersei.  

 

Perhaps this was the real point of his involving Sansa, however involuntarily, in the plot to kill Joffrey.  By doing so he raised her value to one person most of all: Cersei.  And perhaps this is the point of his exhibiting her, not much disguised, throughout the Vale: to establish that he does in fact possess her.  He would need to prove that to Cersei, while still keeping his prize safe from her.  And he can't very well stage her posing with the latest day's edition of the Westeros Gross-Out.  

 

So if there really is a marriage proposal, maybe it does involve Littlefinger after all.  Marrying the Queen-Regent in exchange for Sansa would be a characteristic and significant step up from his earlier, starter-scheme of marrying the regent of the Vale.

[janjan]

And perhaps this is the point of his exhibiting her, not much disguised, throughout the Vale: to establish that he does in fact possess her.  He would need to prove that to Cersei, while still keeping his prize safe from her.  And he can't very well stage her posing with the latest day's edition of the Westeros Gross-Out.

That's the best theory yet, Pallas. But then why did LF want to detain Brienne? I assumed that it was because he didn't want it known that he had Sansa, and that suggests that he's a bit afraid of Cersei. If she knew that LF was sheltering Sansa, she might think that he had something to do with offing Joffers (I'm shocked. shocked!)

 

That's a serious question. Why did LF want to detain Brienne?

 

Another thing that worries me is who was changing the dragonettes collars as they got bigger and outgrew them?

[Anothermi]

That's the best theory yet, Pallas. But then why did LF want to detain Brienne? I assumed that it was because he didn't want it known that he had Sansa, and that suggests that he's a bit afraid of Cersei. If she knew that LF was sheltering Sansa, she might think that he had something to do with offing Joffers (I'm shocked. shocked!)

 

That's a serious question. Why did LF want to detain Brienne?

 

Another thing that worries me is who was changing the dragonettes collars as they got bigger and outgrew them?

 

Good questions janjan. 

 

On the 1st, I think LF works on the policy of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" and once Brienne made her presence & her knowledge of Sansa's presence, known, he tried to use honey to keep her there and would have had his men kill her at a more opportune moment. But her Spidey Senses tingled and she figured out his plan like *that*. The rest, as they say, is a song waiting to be written.

 

Brienne was up front that she was there to, basically, take Sansa away from LF, so I think that was his motivation. That leaves the door open for all the other speculations on what he is up to with her &/or his accepted marriage proposal. 

 

As for the dragons. I wondered who was feeding them so they could grow larger? From the way Dany reacted to their lack of familial affection (was it just last ep?) - it's not been her. So, I guess some poor sod (or series of sods) has been designated to feed and "change" the babies.  (A thought occurred about Dragon faeces but, NO, not going there.... except to say they might be more incendiary than pig-shit. Nod, nod, wink, wink.)

 

-----

And another random tidbit that occurred to me while watching this past episode. Brienne, me thinks, is the Don Quixote of Westeros. And I love her for it. (preferred Jaime in the role of Sancho Panza, but Pod does nicely enough)

Edited April 24, 2015 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

I think LF works on the policy of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" and once Brienne made her presence & her knowledge of Sansa's presence, known, he tried to use honey to keep her there and would have had his men kill her at a more opportune moment. But her Spidey Senses tingled and she figured out his plan like *that*. The rest, as they say, is a song waiting to be written.

 

I agree.  In the way of movie villains everywhere, Littlefinger wanted to take Brienne somewhere else, to kill her.  And she does intrigue him; she is obviously connected to the Lannisters somehow (he took note of her armor and probably recognized the fittings on her sword, just as the Hound did); and he is altogether too accustomed to using and discarding women in his schemes.

 

I think Sansa's spidey-sense tingled too, and her rejection was not all it seemed.  Look at how she stares into Brienne's face as Brienne makes her plea: a very direct and assessing gaze.  Brienne reminded Sansa of what Stark loyalists looked like, the ring of sincerity and respect in their oaths.  Brienne reminded her, perhaps, of her mother's own resounding convictions.  Sansa's reply is as direct as her stare: "You should leave."  And Sansa's right: Brienne should leave, as Podrick tried to point out, earlier.  As we felt, watching the scene.  Here and now was not the moment for Brienne to stand her ground, for Sansa to make a move.  "You should leave."  Firm, clear, yet ambiguous.

[stillshimpy]

And perhaps this is the point of his exhibiting her, not much disguised, throughout the Vale: to establish that he does in fact possess her.  He would need to prove that to Cersei, while still keeping his prize safe from her.  And he can't very well stage her posing with the latest day's edition of the Westeros Gross-Out.

 

It's an interesting thought, but I really doubt that is what Littlefinger is up to.  For one thing, he's trying to topple the power structures at this point in the game, not play directly into them.  Also, Cersei would just then hate him equally, because that would pretty clearly reveal that he was part of murdering her darling boy.  

 

I think Littlefinger recognizes that the Lannister rose has wilted and that the person propping up the power tower is dead.  Cersei might aspire, but she really isn't as good at all of this as she wants others to believe she is (or even as good as she believes herself to be).  Littlefinger knows that.  

 

Besides, there's no one left to torment with all that.  It would be just as easy to kill Sansa, send Cersei her head and curry favor that way.  I don't claim to understand what sort of emotional process Littelfinger possesses, but he does possess something resembling an emotional motivation.  I don't think it is just pure Sadism either.

 

Admittedly, I don't know if he has even a shred of loyalty within him to anyone, or anything, but if he does it's difficult to say what he'd do.  Sansa actually actively chose to pull his chestnuts out of the roaster.   That seemed to really intrigue him and whatever anyone thinks of it, he also kissed her in what I think was as close to a romantic inclination as he's capable of  getting.  

 

I don't think LF has betrothed her to anyone.   I also don't know who he might have been proposing marriage to, but it occurs to me -- Sansa has one living male relative that LF could reach:  Edmure Tully.  

 

What if Edmure Tully accepted Littlefinger's proposal that he marry Sansa?   Because I can't figure out who the hell Littlefinger would be marrying and yes, he is parading Sansa around, barely disguised.  He'd also have at least a little bit of an interest in flipping the Lannister the bird.  

 

What if he has been parading her around as his intended?  

 

I think Sansa's spidey-sense tingled too, and her rejection was not all it seemed.  Look at how she stares into Brienne's face as Brienne makes her plea: a very direct and assessing gaze.

 

I think her gaze was indeed assessing and coming down on the side of "Yeah, you're a nice misfit, but I'm sticking with the villain who saved me not once, or twice, but thrice.  See you, you seem nice." 

Edited April 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

"See you, you seem nice."

"I will continue to look non-committal in the hopes that you take a hint and get the 7 hells out of Dodgeros whilst you still can."

[Anothermi]

I don't think LF has betrothed her to anyone.   I also don't know who he might have been proposing marriage to, but it occurs to me -- Sansa has one living male relative that LF could reach:  Edmure Tully.  

 

What if Edmure Tully accepted Littlefinger's proposal that he marry Sansa?   Because I can't figure out who the hell Littlefinger would be marrying and yes, he is parading Sansa around, barely disguised.  He'd also have at least a little bit of an interest in flipping the Lannister the bird.  

 

What if he has been parading her around as his intended?  

 

IIRC Edmure Tully was last seen being carried out of the hall with his new bride (the only attractive Frey in Westeros) just before the Red part of the infamous Red Wedding began. We speculated at that time that he was likely a prisoner of Walder Frey (yech). 

 

Oh, wait a minute. Perhaps you mean Edmure gave his blessing that LF could marry Sansa? Whew! That makes more sense. Still, under the circumstances - what with Frey being the Lord of the Riverlands now - I can't see Edmure being in a position to approve any union of that magnatude unless LF paid Frey enough to make him forget that Bolton is nearby and would come and get his hide - literally - if he gave the OK for anyone to marry the Key To The North! 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

I am going to spitball in another direction entirely for right now, because any of the options mentioned regarding Sansa being betrothed by LF to someone are all pretty much disgusting and heinous propositions that I cannot bear to think about, unless she is to marry Loras. But anything with her married off to any Frey or Bolton men would be horribly disgusting on so many levels that I.Just.Cant.

 

So I was thinking just now...the title of A Show is Game of Thrones...with an "s", as in plural, as in more than one throne.  But really, how many legitimate thrones do we have right now?

 

The Iron Throne - seat of the ruler of Westeros/The Seven Kingdoms. This is the main "throne" I can think of right now but let's remember my memory is shit with A Show so there's that.

 

Dorne - Is Dorne not part of Westeros/Seven Kingdoms because it seems they have a legitimate King to rule over them, Oby's brother.

 

The Free Folk/Wildlings - Mance was their de facto "King" but it seems they have more sub-alliances than this season's Survivor so do they really have a King now? Or will they? I have a feeling "picking" a new King will be their downfall because of the fractures between sub-groups of Wildlings.

 

Other "rulers" I don't think are actual rulers per se like he who sits upon the Iron Throne and/or Dorne's King. I mean, Theon's father isn't a real "King" is he? Isn't he merely the Lord of the Iron Islands? Same as Ned was to The North?  And as much as Stannis likes to swan about telling folks he is the REAL KING, well, he's just not. Yet. So...

 

Mireen - Technically for now, Dany appears to be the Queen of Mireen, whether she wants to be or not, but it also doesn't feel like a legit "Throne" to me because she swept into town with three dragons in tow and schooled the masters about slavery, but it's not the same as being anointed Queen of say, The Seven Kingdoms which seems more legit to me. What sayeth you all?

 

The Free Cities don't have rulers per se hence being "Free", yes?  Those cities include: Pentos, Braavos, and the place Mrs. Robb Stark hails from I think. What other cities are there?

 

I don't know where I'm going with this, other than trying to take stock of what legit "thrones" exist other than the Iron Throne and perhaps the Dornish Throne...

 

Lastly, Janjan, I think you asked about who changes the dragonettes collars as they grow...No fear, for they are likely wearing Draganimals elasticized neck collars, guaranteed to expand and grow with your growing dragonettes...Now available in a variety of colors and patterns at your local bazaar...

Edited April 25, 2015 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

Oh, wait a minute. Perhaps you mean Edmure gave his blessing that LF could marry Sansa? Whew! That makes more sense. Still, under the circumstances - what with Frey being the Lord of the Riverlands now - I can't see Edmure being in a position to approve any union of that magnatude unless LF paid Frey enough to make him forget that Bolton is nearby and would come and get his hide - literally - if he gave the OK for anyone to marry the Key To The North!

 

Yes, I did mean that Littlefinger might have asked for permission to marry Sansa.  This entire business of Sansa being the Key to the North, bladda, yadda continues to bug me.   She really shouldn't be any longer.  She was referred to as that when she was married off to Tyrion, but since then Robb Stark became one dead Direwolf owner, all the Starks are presumed deceased and more importantly, there's a new Warden of the North. 

There are going to be a few hardcore "Always a Stark at Winterfell! Or else ....bad shit!  More bad shit than usually, we mean!"  bannermen, but how in the world would they view Sansa by this point in the story?  Because I'm thinking, oh to put it mildly, not favorably.  She was engaged to Joffrey when Joffrey cut off Ned's head.  She was married to Tyrion when Tywin Lannister really ruined the hell out of the concept of a wedding reception.  

It's actually kind of laughable to think that anyone would be all "Now we accept Roose Bolton as the Warden of the North, because his newly named heir has been betrothed to Sansa Stark!"  because -- again, into the land of understatement I ride -- a friend to all things Stark he isn't and it's sort of well known.   There's likely a song detailing that, but it is so gruesome even HBO hesitates to reveal the lyrics to it. 

 

I'm willing to buy that many would be able to just view Sansa Stark as a victim in all of this, shuffled around and mistreated, but there appear to be only two places that give a shit about Stark anything any longer:  Bear Island (which makes zero sense, by the way, unless Jorah's entire family hated the boogers out of him) , wherever Bran went and the trio at the Vale was persuaded because Ned grew up there.  They didn't even back Robb, so that doesn't even seem to count for much.  

 

Just saying, pretending that Sansa is the key to anything is kind of glossing over the condition of the lock which is FUBAR'd at this point.  

 

When your lock is a mangled mess, gummed up with the blood of the fallen and cut asunder with bolt cutters anyway, what's the point of a key?  

Edited April 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Dragons: I had the same question about the collars!  I think it's unanswerable.  They had easily doubled in size during their captivity.  Feeding the dragons, I had imagined happened through a grate at the top of the crypt.  Water lowered down the same way, in basins suspended on chains tied up at the top. Sanitation?  Not a major concern in this saga, and, maybe the dragons flambe-ed their own poop, if they took note of it at all.  

 

Kingdoms: Add The Iron Islands and their King, Theon's father, to the mix.  There is currently a vacancy for the title King of the North, as there is for King Beyond the Wall.  (Stannis would of course say all three of these titles are specious, not vacant.)  I believe Dorne is one of the Seven Kingdoms: the only one that withstood the Targaryns' dragon-fire, but which nonetheless eventually joined with the other six. Its lord is called a Prince, not a King.  As the sole surviving Targareyn, Dany calls herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms -- a direct rival to Stannis, not simply one who would split off and rule a portion of the realm.  She has since added other regions and cities in Essos to her titles, like pearls in a necklace centered on a great medallion, the Seven Kingdoms. 

[stillshimpy]

Not a major concern in this saga, and, maybe the dragons flambe-ed their own poop, if they took note of it at all.

 

Maybe their excretory system is the breathing of fire?  I mean, when something breathes fire, it seems like maybe its innards aren't necessarily structured in the common ways.  

 

Does a Dragon poop in the woods?  We sincerely don't know.  

 

Guys, I hate to bring this up, but shouldn't there be a little more evidence of people talking up the advent of Winter, or ....you know...that Army of the Dead that was seen slouching towards the Wall about two freaking years ago?   

 

I get that Zombonis are slow by their very "We're dead.  We shamble.  It's what we do. Deal" nature, but if they are this slow it seems like we already have the answer to "What do we do about the Whitewalkers?!?" because they look to be easy to outpace.  

 

Also, Survived Ten Winters old dud (intentional, not missing the e ) in the election process suggests that Winters come and Winters go and I get that they are anticipating a really rough one because....dead things, see: shambling and slouching....but as near as I can tell the Kingdoms don't even have to cover their plants at night, at present.  

 

A Hard Frost hasn't even made the scene and it seems to have left the dialogue.   

 

Winter is....Postponed Indefinitely.  Climate change is real .  

[Jan Snow]

Yes, I did mean that Littlefinger might have asked for permission to marry Sansa.  This entire business of Sansa being the Key to the North, bladda, yadda continues to bug me.   She really shouldn't be any longer.  She was referred to as that when she was married off to Tyrion, but since then Robb Stark became one dead Direwolf owner, all the Starks are presumed deceased and more importantly, there's a new Warden of the North. 

Still, a name that's been in power for thousands of years carries a LOT of weight. The new warden has been there for less than a year (if that) and has a certain reputation. Whoever begets an heir with Sansa gains at least a degree of legitimacy, even if grudgingly, as it at least carries on their beloved liege lord's bloodline.

There are going to be a few hardcore "Always a Stark at Winterfell! Or else ....bad shit!  More bad shit than usually, we mean!"  bannermen, but how in the world would they view Sansa by this point in the story?  Because I'm thinking, oh to put it mildly, not favorably.  She was engaged to Joffrey when Joffrey cut off Ned's head.  She was married to Tyrion when Tywin Lannister really ruined the hell out of the concept of a wedding reception.

She was always seen as the wronged one within the northern rebellion. Remember, ever since Ned got killed one of the main motivators was "getting the girls back" , followed by the newly claimed independence. 

 

I'm willing to buy that many would be able to just view Sansa Stark as a victim in all of this, shuffled around and mistreated, but there appear to be only two places that give a shit about Stark anything any longer:  Bear Island (which makes zero sense, by the way, unless Jorah's entire family hated the boogers out of him) ...

Why would you say that? Stannis picked the niece's letter because EVEN a girl of ten wouldn't give him the time of day. I gather that wasn't the only exchange he's had. (Consider Jon's reaction: "northerners can be a bit like the wildlings", Northerners, not Mormonts) Remember, the red wedding killed other northern lords. As Tyrion said right after the event: "The northerners will never forget". Lets not forget the Umbers who are presumably hiding that other, MALE, key to the north. 

 

As for the Mormonts, remember what the Lord Commander said to Jon when he handed him Longclaw:  "It was meant for my son Jorah. He brought dishonour to hour house but he had the grace to leave the sword before he fled from Westeros.". That implies that they thought Ned Starks ruling on Jorah just. It's how you get a former head of a house giving his former liege lord's bastard son a sword that has been in his family for five centuries. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by Jan Snow

[ChocButterfly]

Yeah, I assume most of the North is against Bolton, the problem is many of their Lords and bannermen got killed during the war with the Lannisters, and then at the Red Wedding, I would assume. There's no reason for them to follow Bolton, as there is no reason for them to follow freaking Stannis!! I do think a Stark heir would change things, but as someone mentioned the Umbers, I had forgotten about them! I would think (I hope) they're hiding Rickon and making time to try to put him in the North throne.

 

There's no way Edmure could approve any wedding. Dude's probably in a dungeon at Frey's castle. Or maybe he's more like a Sansa prisoner, where he can roam around the place, but definitely not make any decisions, specially regarding Sansa!

[janjan]

A Man has said:

WS, channelling Sansa: "I will continue to look non-committal in the hopes that you take a hint and get the 7 hells out of Dodgeros whilst you still can."

Yeah, that occurred to me also -- that Sansa wasn't so much dismissing Brienne as trying to save her life.

 

Gingerella - where do you get those Draganimals elasticized neck collars with the fashionable iron spikes? Can you get them monogrammed? I had to lock my little pink and purple dragon away because she flambe'd a goldfish, and now she's p*ssed. I might not go in there for a while.

Edited April 25, 2015 by janjan