Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Shanna Marie]

Bringing this over from the old All Seasons thread:

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They were the only relationship on the show that we didn't know was actually going to happen. Snow/Charming would always be together, Belle/the Beast would be together and they declared Robin/Regina soulmates before we even got to see them or see if they had chemistry (which was a HUGE mistake) but Emma and Hook, as even Hook said, were never predestined.

That is an interesting point. Just about all the relationships that span more than one episode are pre-determined. The series started with a True Love's Kiss between Snow and Charming. Belle and Rumple have a near TLK in their first episode, validating that they do have True Love, even if he was able to stop it, and then they're also a canon fairytale couple. Philip and Aurora have a TLK from the start. There was the Pixie dust certifying that Robin was Regina's soulmate before they even shared a scene together. Hades and Zelena had the possibility of a TLK raised in their first episode. And then there's Hook and Emma, where the writers seem reluctant to say that they have true love and are happy together even after they're married.

I don't recall any interviews suggesting that this was a relationship during the first couple of seasons Hook was on the show. They certainly didn't introduce him as a potential love interest. In fact, they teased him as a new villain who'd be the worst villain ever. I really thought they were going to have Emma end up with Neal until Neal died. That meant there was a lot of analyzing every little thing to see what clues there were -- were we meant to see sexual tension and chemistry? Did they write "Tallahassee" as a contrast between Hook and Neal, where Neal bails on Emma while Hook puts himself at risk to help her and cheers for her success? Was it all a happy accident and they saw the chemistry and decided to go there? Not knowing was a big part of the fun.

On this show, a lot of the challenge is that we know the canon relationships are probably going to end up together, and we're not all that happy when something interrupts them (like a lot of people weren't keen on Robin Hood wanting to leave Maid Marian). They only get to really play with this when they're dealing with original characters or characters who don't have a canon match.

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I actually could like a Hook not mooning over Emma, but I never got on the CS bandwagon..( I thought the show should have ended Emma like Regina..happy on her own with family and friends and the possibillity of meeting someone but if not, she would still be happy. )

I wouldn't have minded an ending like that either.  I did eventually grow to like Hook and CS, but I think the show (with better writers who actually had interest in writing a character-based drama) could have had an alternate path where Emma doesn't get involved with a love interest and still gradually learn to trust, have hope, form deeper bonds with her parents, with Henry and new friends, and find her place in a reality with magic and alternate realms, etc.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I did eventually grow to like Hook and CS, but I think the show (with better writers who actually had interest in writing a character-based drama) could have had an alternate path where Emma doesn't get involved with a love interest and still gradually learn to trust, have hope, form deeper bonds with her parents, with Henry and new friends, and find her place in a reality with magic and alternate realms, etc.

Generally, what works best is the character not ending up with the thing they were seeking, but rather what they truly need. So I was happy with Emma ending up getting married, since the Emma at the beginning kept talking about not being a relationship person. She'd been badly burned by Neal, and because of that she was more likely to go for one-night-stands. She was afraid of getting involved -- and in a way that was different from her WALLS with her parents (not that they ever really addressed or dealt with that in a decent way). Her getting into a romantic relationship and sticking with it, and then getting married showed that she'd grown and changed.

On the other hand, I kind of think Regina needs to end up finding her happiness outside a romantic relationship since her issue from the start has been her declaring that her life is ruined when something happens to her boyfriend. Her being content with friends and family -- maybe even after having a relationship end without her going stark raving nuts -- would be a sign that she'd grown and changed. I don't think she should necessarily have yet another boyfriend die, but she could have a breakup or him end up in a different realm, or something similar to her first split with Robin (when he ended up with what he thought was Marian), and we'd know she'd grown when she just rolled with it instead of going on a vengeance quest, trying to change the universe, or splitting herself in half.

[Rumsy4]

Hey! We can still post here. Bringing this from the spoiler thread.

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[Rumbelle] are the worst romantic pairing the show has....had, until we got Henry and Murderella.

I sort of agree, becasue at least Rumbelle fits a pattern (even if it is an abusive one). But so far, we are yet to see what attracts Henry to Murderella and vice versa. In that sense, it's more similar to Outlaw Queen, because beyond the lion tattoo, I don't get their attraction. Maybe Murderella has a prophetic tattoo? 

[KingOfHearts]

I've seen people argue that Rumpbelle teaches that a girl can stay with her abusive boyfriend and "change" him. The counterargument is that this is a fairy tale TV shows, and people should be able to separate facts from fiction. While it's true viewers should not be so impressionable that they get their dating advice from a TV show, it's still ludicrous to me. It's not so much that's unrealistic, but that's too realistic. It's depressing. It glorifies real world situations that usually end up much, much worse. Yes, it's just a TV show, but it's also entertainment. It's not entertaining to see an adventuring heroine like Belle tied to an abusive liar who constantly locks her in a cage. I get no enjoyment out of watching her stupidly come back to him over and over again. It hits too close to home. They did live "happily ever after", but it was the expense of everyone else, they weren't doing any good in the world, and it only occurred because Belle lied about the sun. Now Rumple is back to drowning people and still hasn't lost the Dagger. 

[Camera One]

Take a look at this poll.  Seriously?

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Best-Once-Upon-Time-Couple-44589382?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=post&utm_campaign=buzz

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Take a look at this poll.  Seriously?

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Best-Once-Upon-Time-Couple-44589382?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=post&utm_campaign=buzz

Hahahhahahaa

One word=bots

Edited February 17, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

For those not watching the Winter Olympics, thanks for joining us for ongoing coverage of this competition for the Best Once Upon a Time Couple.  The results after a day are:

1. Regina and Robin Hood (14,798 votes... way to go!  so far ahead of the rest of the field)

2. Hook and Emma (how sad, only 7,524 votes... not even close)

3. Henry and Cinderella (this newcomer is the one to watch, with 4,806 votes!)

4. Rumple and Belle (don't count out this tried and true favorite, with 3,705 votes)

The rest of the field are hardly worth mentioning since they haven't even reached a thousand (for the record, in fifth place is the tired and old Snow and Prince Charming with a pathetic 826 votes)

Edited February 18, 2018 by Camera One

[superloislane]

I never understand why people are so obsessed with random polls and even use bots to cheat on them. There was a poll last year where Regina and Robin got like 100,000 votes in one day on a site I had never heard of! Is it supposed to prove how popular all these ships are because I don't think having to cheat on a poll shows how popular they are!

[Camera One]

Maybe only their fans go to this website?  I mean, the author of the poll started it with the Regina/Robin photo at the top.  I also wonder where all the Henry/Jacinda votes came from.  A&E's fan club of 2?

[Rumsy4]

55 minutes ago, Camera One said:

where all the Henry/Jacinda votes came from

Probably Adam figured out how to work these poll bots? 

[Shanna Marie]

Looking at the latest "epic romance," it definitely seems like they're trying to draw on the pattern established by Snow and Charming: Initial hostility caused by them having opposing goals, but then they take risks to save each other and come away from the adventure with at least one of them using a snarky nickname for the other that started as kind of an insult but that became an endearment and with both of them feeling a bit of a spark.

They repeated that again with Dorothy and Red, to some extent with Regina and Robin, with Henry and Ella, and now with Robyn and Alice.

The problem is that the pattern doesn't really scale. It worked with Snow and Charming not because of the hostility and cute nickname but because those things went against type for what we've seen before in the Snow White/Prince Charming romance. That relationship, especially the Disney version, has become the epitome of fairytale romance even though it's based on absolutely nothing -- they hadn't even spoken before the True Love's Kiss. The show version fleshes it out and shows that it's not sappy insta-love, that instead of love at first sight there was hostility. The hostility was actually based on something, though, with her thinking she was stealing from one of Regina's allies and needing the money to escape and with him not wanting to lose his mother's ring. The snarky nickname was another way of playing with the fairy tale, finding a way to call him Prince Charming even though nobody would actually be called that.

But with the copies later, they aren't established romantic relationships from stories. They're mashing up other stories that are entirely unrelated, so it's not fleshing out a story or going against type. The hostility is out of nowhere. The nicknames are meaningless. I think another part of the problem is that they're pre-ordained, pre-fab relationships. They went in with the plan for this to be an "epic romance" before even establishing the characters or letting their relationship grow organically. We already knew Robin and Regina were soulmates, Henry and Ella were a press release, Ruby and Dorothy were to tick off a diversity box after they opened their mouths in an interview, and Robyn and Alice seem like an attempt to mollify people who were irked by the way Ruby and Dorothy were handled. There was never a chance to just let the characters be in scenes together and see how it worked. The first thing we saw of Robyn and Alice together was a kiss after they were in a relationship.

It seems like fans react more strongly to relationships when they have to figure them out for themselves first, when they have to look at subtext and there's some question as to whether or not it will happen. I think a lot of what worked with Hook and Emma was the fact that we didn't know for sure until the season 3 finale if they were going to go there. There were sparks, there was a connection, and there was even initial hostility, but there was also nothing saying that they were absolutely going to end up together. I don't recall them being mentioned in interviews as an epic romance before they got together on screen. We saw the relationship play out in real time, in the present, so there was no way to start things off by showing us a later time in their relationship, when they were already together, first. There was no pixie dust or glowing necklace to prove they were meant to be.

I think Alice and Robyn might have worked better if we hadn't seen the kiss later in the timeline, if we'd just seen their meeting and some other stuff with them, then saw them interact under the curse in the present, and were given room to speculate on what actually happened with them before they made it obvious. The first kiss and the anticipation of it loses all impact when we've already seen a later kiss.

[Camera One]

20 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

We already knew Robin and Regina were soulmates, Henry and Ella were a press release, Ruby and Dorothy were to tick off a diversity box after they opened their mouths in an interview, and Robyn and Alice seem like an attempt to mollify people who were irked by the way Ruby and Dorothy were handled. There was never a chance to just let the characters be in scenes together and see how it worked. The first thing we saw of Robyn and Alice together was a kiss after they were in a relationship.

I think Alice and Robyn might have worked better if we hadn't seen the kiss later in the timeline, if we'd just seen their meeting and some other stuff with them, then saw them interact under the curse in the present, and were given room to speculate on what actually happened with them before they made it obvious. The first kiss and the anticipation of it loses all impact when we've already seen a later kiss.

I agree.  This was another pre-ordained epic in interviews.  This was from October 2017:

Kitsis: We just love the character of Alice and her portrayal. We're really excited about what we're going to do with her for the rest of the season. We're going to tell a great, epic love story with her. We are going to be telling her story throughout the year. She's just so interesting and fun to watch. The writers were all just really excited to keep writing for her. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

11 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It worked with Snow and Charming not because of the hostility and cute nickname but because those things went against type for what we've seen before in the Snow White/Prince Charming romance

Plus, I think they had done a better job fleshing out Snow's backstory before you saw her being hostile towards him - it made more sense instead of just being a cliche cute hate at first sight reaction.  Plus it was not your first time meeting Charming/David, so you knew he was more than just someone doing glib banter with an attractive thief.   Goodwin and Dallas might have also done a better job at coming of more likable and not as bratty in those scenes (or perhaps had better writing). 

That episode also gave them a fair amount of screen time so you saw them gradually change how they viewed each other throughout the episode. It was not just a 180 degree turn from you are my enemy to you are my true love in one or two scenes/moments. 

A lot of the reason they probably worked it was a fresh spin that is no longer fresh and the charm of the original actors and having the right chemistry (and better writing).

[Kktjones]

On 12/6/2016 at 12:58 AM, InsertWordHere said:

As for endgame, as much as I don't want it to happen, I've always thought it was possible we'd get some sort of "have your cake and eat it too" endgame with CS together but with hints that SQ could be together in the future or even an ambiguous open-ended non-ending. 

I am not saying Emma and Hook won't be together and probably married in the finale. I am saying they will be kissing and happy like they have been for most of the recent finales but Emma and Regina will also be together as friends with the hint of something more just like they have been for most of the recent finales. Only this time that hint will be a little more obvious.

 

On 12/6/2016 at 8:59 AM, Curio said:

They won't leave anything open to interpretation, but they will probably give the final "touching moment" of the series to a Regina/Emma scene.

I was just remembering this discussion we had after 6x10 last year and wanted to look at some of the predictions based on how the series actually ended. What's interesting is that these would have been way off if JMo has decided not to come back after 7x02. In that episode Emma & Regina had no interactions and the actresses didn't even film on the same day. 

But let's look at how they ended 7x22. We've all discussed the ending they gave Regina and how the finale was focused on her rather than Henry. But in terms of CS vs. SQ I found these predictions to be very close to what actually happened. Clearly CS is married and just had an impossibly cute baby - Hope Swan-Jones (according to the script). However, the very last interaction on the show was between Regina and Emma. During the final scene Lana really played up her lines about Emma and it left many SQ fans feeling like it was clear that Regina is in love with Emma. (I've also seen some taking it as far as saying that it was obvious Hope is Emma & Regina's daughter (conceived on the graduation trip) and that the final scene was actually their wedding, but I chose to believe those people are just having a bit of fun and don't actually believe that). So they definitely ended with CS married and happy, but did give the final moment of the series to Regina/Emma.