S02.E12: Paradise Lost

[jhlipton]

aquarian1 -- the biggest problem was that damned Succubus.  It showed Hawley's deepest desire as Abbie, not Jenny.  So unless one chooses to forget that entire episode (which I do, but know that others can't), there's a real problem with Hawley suddenly being Jenny-crazy.

[sinkwriter]

 

Just because OTHER shows have made glaring and ridiculous errors, does not mean I give Sleepy Hollow a pass. This was clearly an attempt to steer the ship in another direction, but it was a moment that hit the viewer over the head, rather than a subtle shift. That there are enough people not only saying, "Wait...what happened?" but a humongous WTF moment, proves they didn't take the time to ease into the "Hawley suddenly likes Jenny again" story line.

 

*nodding at all of you and your posts about this*  Like SweetTooth said, I don't mind if they want to go in another direction and have Hawley realize that he screwed things up with Jenny but wants her back. (In fact, I like that idea better than to have him yearning over Abbie.) It's just that the way the story has been told up to this episode, that's not what was shown, and what's shown is everything. I feel like we missed an episode that should have been squeezed in between, something that would show Hawley seeing Jenny in that new light again, one in which he loses the crush on Abbie and transfers the feelings back where they belong, on Jenny. To have him suddenly jealous, with no real shift in character behavior or story, I just thought it was missing something to give more resonance to his moment of jealousy and inappropriate "butting in" on Jenny's chat with the bartender.

 

I will say that I liked Jenny calling him out on his behavior though. I liked her saying something like "You burned that bridge a long time ago, with napalm!" I like that she doesn't just fawn over him and feel flattered that he cut in on her attempt to get to know the bartender. That would have been total Jenny character destruction.

Edited January 18, 2015 by sinkwriter

[phoenics]

Man - regarding the sudden Hawley switch - this show relies an awful lot on telling rather than showing lately. It's a real shame how far it has fallen since S1.

[FormerMod-a1]

I was (obviously poorly) summarizing the brief to me, in comparisons to the episodes as a whole, entirety of the Hawley likes Abbie plot with my terminology about "brief glances".   I didn't want to detail and list every single scene and thought people would get the gist of my opinion w/o doing so.   You have a right to your opinion, I have a right to mine.  

[jhlipton]

Clearly it's a matter of perception.  The "Hawley likes Abbie" plot was brief in duration (only 3 episodes, if that).  But the scene in "Succubus" was intense (with the monster mimicking Abbie's clothes and they way she holds her head -- verified by a cut-away to the actual Abbie in case we didn't get it).  And that was supposed to be Hawley's "deepest desire".  

 

I'm fine with pretending that scene didn't happen la la la, can't hear you... that way I can totally ignore the sisters=ick factor.

 

So you are right and I am right and all is right — too-loo-ral-lay!

[HalcyonDays]

Man - regarding the sudden Hawley switch - this show relies an awful lot on telling rather than showing lately. It's a real shame how far it has fallen since S1.

 

Lately? This show is the epitome of TELL not SHOW. I mean, how many times did we hear "Katrina is a powerful witch...blah blah, Katrina is a valuable spy....blah blah...Katrina is a skilled operative...blah..." Maybe in some cheesy comic spoof...*smile*

 

As for the Hawley switch. The jumping between Mills' sisters was in very bad taste. But did you see that bartender that was flirting with Jenny? YUM-MY. Hawley is cute, but man, show, there is no comparison. Bartender was hot as hell and had two dogs. Perfect man, if you ask me....

[phoenics]

Lately? This show is the epitome of TELL not SHOW. I mean, how many times did we hear "Katrina is a powerful witch...blah blah, Katrina is a valuable spy....blah blah...Katrina is a skilled operative...blah..." Maybe in some cheesy comic spoof...*smile*

 

As for the Hawley switch. The jumping between Mills' sisters was in very bad taste. But did you see that bartender that was flirting with Jenny? YUM-MY. Hawley is cute, but man, show, there is no comparison. Bartender was hot as hell and had two dogs. Perfect man, if you ask me....

Heh - I should have said, "this season" instead of lately, lol.

But you are 100% right!

Oh and the bartender was smoking hot. Just ... whew. Dollar store Thor can't compare.

Edited January 19, 2015 by phoenics

[catrox14]

I really do like Hawley as a character. And I don't mind him being around to become a friend to Ichabod and the rest of Team Witness

[phoenics]

Yeah, look, no detailed scenes needed, but for me marginalizing the Hawley infatuation with Abbie to a few brief glances, wasn't entirely accurate compared to what actually occurred. If nobody else had noticed, not even Abbie, and it was just a subtle thing the audience picked up on, that would be different. But it was pronounced enough for other characters to pick up on it, even Jenny. Hawley looked at Abbie with longing in his eyes. And he did it for an extended enough period where we got reaction shots from others, and Crane said, "Yeah, look, Hawley is totally hot for you, so go for it."

Agreed. The show made a big deal out of this.

 

Again, I don't mind that the show switched gears. I just mind that they made an extended and quite forced point about Hawley liking Abbie, then without any rhyme or reason, had him be suddenly all caught up in Jenny. Sloppy, sloppy writing. They can change direction, but seriously, they've got some 'splainin' to do.

I think - like another poster suggested - had they had Jenny react with surprise and call him out on his "crush" on Abbie so Hawley could at least explain that away - that would have helped. Instead, they tried to pretend all of that never happened and had Hawley be suddenly into Jenny. No issue with them switching gears - just don't pretend we didn't see what you showed us.

But I shouldn't be surprised, since from one week to the next with the Cranes, it's "MY BELOVED!" Runs across the field. "I LOVE YOU AND WOULD DIE FOR YOU A THOUSAND TIMES!" Then, "You manipulated me! I'm going to walk away in a snit now!" Next week, "MY BELOVED! I've forgotten how you manipulated me last week, so I'm going to run to you and allow you to do it to me again then be all cranky about it." Next week it will be back to "MY BELOVED!"

Yeah - this is my issue too. It's irritating to hear that the show runners and (and now Fox apparently) think the show is too serialized and that's why ratings are dropping.

I say it's because the show seems to treat the audience like we are stupid. The reason there is so much tell and not show is because the writers don't care enough to SHOW us anything - plus they are trying to dictate what we take away from the show by TELLING us what to take away from the show, rather than writing a compelling story and letting us take that away.

I wonder if some of that is related to the reaction to Ichabbie - the show runners were surprised by that - so this season, there is a LOT of telling us with regard to Ichabbie and Ichatrina - and that's not sitting well with fans.

I think it was Deliverance where the "TELL" was at its worst - I remember feeling like the writers were trying to hit me over the head with "Ichatrina is EPIC TRU WUV!"...

So... I guess having Hawley flip like that with no explanation is just par for the course.

And yes, this show is all about tell, don't show. "Katrina is a powerful witch! Except for whatever circumstance we're in now! So we'll just have her exhibit righteous indignation and screw everything up for you instead and hope you don't notice."

 

Halcyon, sounds like if we went on a man hunt, we'd be going after the same dudes. Because DAYUM, he made Hawley look like dog meat.

Back off ladies... he's mine.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's get back to the topic at hand, which was the episode Paradise Lost please. We've got other spots to debate things such as the history of Hawley's interest in the Mills' sisters. Thank you!

[HalcyonDays]

phoenics and SweetTooth - you both are brilliant!! Truly! If we lived close to each other, we could go hit a pub, get some pints and drown our Sleepy Hollow sorrows!

 

A few weeks back, I learned that little tweeks were being made in the episodes, in response to the Abbie Mills hashtag. The whole Hawley is into Jenny again is one of it, after the backlash with the whole sharing sisters thing. Its nothing to do with bad writing (well, the writing is bad), it's because they had to retcon because they had no choice. It's pretty obvious too, that the scene doesn't quite fit with the rest of the show. And that bartender was gorgeous. *swoon*

 

Topic? There were two things I side-eyed in this episode (besides a certain redhead). One - Ichabod destroying the "Orion" ring of power. Two: Him handing Headless the axe. Does the axe only work for Headless, or for anyone who wields it? And that "ring of power" - this show never explores how certain weapons could be utilized by others. We saw it with the Methelusah sword - only Witnesses could handle it, but what about that Orion Ring? If Abbie stabbed someone with it, would it be able to absorb the power? Same with the axe? Does it only glow, be powerful in the hands of Headless?

[netlyon2]

Topic? There were two things I side-eyed in this episode (besides a certain redhead). One - Ichabod destroying the "Orion" ring of power. Two: Him handing Headless the axe. Does the axe only work for Headless, or for anyone who wields it? And that "ring of power" - this show never explores how certain weapons could be utilized by others. We saw it with the Methelusah sword - only Witnesses could handle it, but what about that Orion Ring? If Abbie stabbed someone with it, would it be able to absorb the power? Same with the axe? Does it only glow, be powerful in the hands of Headless?

Side Note:  I totally read that as "onion ring of power."  Clearly, it's time to go to bed.*

 

About that axe, I'm still holding out for someone to call Katrina on the fact that peace-promisin' Abraham's first action upon being freed was to re-forge himself a new weapon.  I mean, really.  I refuse to accept the fact that Ichabod handed it back to him.  That can't be so; why, it would be like saying "Hey, Mr. Evil Serial Killer, I noticed that you've stocked this nondescript van with sharp implements, plastic sheeting, and duct tape.  That crazy angel tried to keep you from driving off by taking the keys, but I got them back for you.  Here you go!" 

 

You're right; it would be nice to know more about these weapons, to explore their properties and limitations.  However, such mystical weaponry is part of the show's original mythology, and--as we know--the show's original mythology holds nothing more for the writers to . . . wait, I just sprained my logic muscle.

 

* Then again, an episode devoted to an onion ring of power would totally be better than most of the CFD we've gotten, so maybe I should mosey on over to the therapy thread and suggest another addition to the improvement poll.

[savinggrace]

I guess I'm in the minority in not seeing the appeal of the bartender. He looked like a werewolf. Did anyone else catch the tail end of whatever boring conversation he was having with Jenny? He said something about a dog and I remember feeling grateful that Hawley came and dismissed him.

[HalcyonDays]

I guess I'm in the minority in not seeing the appeal of the bartender. He looked like a werewolf. Did anyone else catch the tail end of whatever boring conversation he was having with Jenny? He said something about a dog and I remember feeling grateful that Hawley came and dismissed him.

I think he was just talking about his two dogs - something cute they did. I don't quite remember what he said. The sound was low.

 

I will say personality makes a huge difference. You can have a beautiful looking guy, but a bad personlity turns them ugly in your mind. I wouldn't kick any of them out of bed, but I do like Hawley's personality. He seems fun, good sense of humour and laid back, and has some brains, so he's good.

 

This may be a stretch, but interesting that when the bartender is hitting on Jenny, Hawley displays similar rude, suspicious, dismissive behaviour that Crane shows to Hawley before (and previously Luke Morales.). Honestly, if it wasn't for the "three way", I would think that scene was really cute. But since I know it's a retcon, it's still cute but makes me side-eye it.

[phoenics]

I guess I'm in the minority in not seeing the appeal of the bartender. He looked like a werewolf. Did anyone else catch the tail end of whatever boring conversation he was having with Jenny? He said something about a dog and I remember feeling grateful that Hawley came and dismissed him.

Hahahaha a werewolf!!

[DeLurker]

I guess I'm in the minority in not seeing the appeal of the bartender. He looked like a werewolf. Did anyone else catch the tail end of whatever boring conversation he was having with Jenny? He said something about a dog and I remember feeling grateful that Hawley came and dismissed him.

Barkeep was attractive in a generic kind of way- one of those people who I know are technically attractive, but don't do it for me. But clearly there are some who find him their cuppa tea.

[vanarnd1]

 

But I shouldn't be surprised, since from one week to the next with the Cranes, it's "MY BELOVED!" Runs across the field. "I LOVE YOU AND WOULD DIE FOR YOU A THOUSAND TIMES!" Then, "You manipulated me! I'm going to walk away in a snit now!" Next week, "MY BELOVED! I've forgotten how you manipulated me last week, so I'm going to run to you and allow you to do it to me again then be all cranky about it." Next week it will be back to "MY BELOVED!"

 

This is one of the biggest things that has bothered me about this season. There is no forward movement because the characters keep going in circles. Ichabod gets upset with Katrina, complains to Abbie, but ends up doing what Katrina wants in the end anyway. It was the same with the Henry "redemption". there would be constant debate about it but in the end Ichabod was always going to side with Katrina and not kill Henry. They have sent so much screen time on the Crane's relationship without moving anything forward in an meaningful way and it feels like a complete waste at this point.

 

And the biggest thing is that it undermines the partnership of the witnesses. It has become cringe worthy every time Ichabod tells Abbie how they will be united and fight together because he ends up contradicting himself constantly. Before there was a certain innocence to the show because a viewer could completely buy into the Ichabbie partnership and could root for them, but now I find myself constantly questioning Ichabod's real loyalties and truthfully it makes the show a lot less fun to watch. 

[phoenics]

And the biggest thing is that it undermines the partnership of the witnesses. It has become cringe worthy every time Ichabod tells Abbie how they will be united and fight together because he ends up contradicting himself constantly. Before there was a certain innocence to the show because a viewer could completely buy into the Ichabbie partnership and could root for them, but now I find myself constantly questioning Ichabod's real loyalties and truthfully it makes the show a lot less fun to watch.

Maybe that's the entire point. They don't want the show to be about the two witnesses anymore... they're going for an "ensemble" cast (hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge --> that's what shows say when they want to demote the leading lady/guy). Without an apocalypse - why are witnesses needed at all? They just need random fighters.

[jhlipton]

We saw it with the Methelusah sword - only Witnesses could handle it,

 

The wonderfully powerfull Sword of Methelusah -- the sword that only one person can wield, and that because he lost his soul.  Way to build something up then drop it, guys.