Derek Hale: Super Senior

[Carrie Ann]

Poor Derek, no longer an Alpha, just hangin' around, usually being tortured somewhere (thankfully sans shirt).

[ElleryAnne]

Senior?  Now I feel old.

I hope he gets a good solid storyline in S4.  I felt like he was an afterthought in most of 3B, in spite of the rapport he was building with Chris Argent.  He needs to be more directly involved in protecting Beacon Hills from... well, whatever it needs protecting from.  If he can do so while being simultaneously both a good mentor and a vague menace, all the better.  

But I guess I'd settle for watching him working out.

[caseylane]

I agree. I think the twins got more screen time than Derek did this season. I would like him used for more than another romance too. Jeff Davis said that Tyler did romance well but I don't think that's true. Unless he and Jennifer were kissing or sharing over a battle, they didn't have any screens together. Nothing to show a true connection.

I can seer why Scott & Kiera like each other, they showed it. Not Derek.

[Carrie Ann]

Senior?  Now I feel old.

I just meant "Super Senior" in the sense that he's basically just hanging around Beacon Hills with teens, like the guy who's graduated but still goes to the high school parties. He's a little older than these teens, but younger than their parents.

And you're both right--they just haven't figured out what to do with him post-un-Alpha-ing. He really needs another love interest (NOT KATE), or at least another purpose in his life.

[ahisma]

Actually I wish Derek would get a break from relationships and maybe get some therapy instead. The poor guy needs it! Somebody asked Tyler H in a ComicCon interview after s2 whether he'd get some romance, and he said he thought maybe Derek had a lot of other things to deal with and it wasn't the best time—which I agreed with. Then Jeff tossed roofies!Darach at Derek, and Tyler was a trooper. He said it was fun to get to show a different side of Derek, which as an actor probably was great. Jeff didn't need to take that as meaning all romance all the time, though ...

[ElleryAnne]

Unless he and Jennifer were kissing or sharing over a battle, they didn't have any screens together. Nothing to show a true connection.

I can seer why Scott & Kiera like each other, they showed it. Not Derek.

 

Agreed.  Derek's relationships with women have been more plot-device than character or story building.  Scott's relationships, Isaac's feelings for Allison, and the twins' romances with Danny and Lydia all felt more genuine.

 

--they just haven't figured out what to do with him post-un-Alpha-ing. He really needs another love interest (NOT KATE), or at least another purpose in his life.

He definitely needs more of a purpose - or at least more of a life - than occasionally mentoring Scott.  We're going into S4, yet do we even know how he spends his time when he's not working out or losing fights?  Where does he get money to live?  I feel like there are things about him that they can show us that would help deepen his place in the show.

 

Actually I wish Derek would get a break from relationships and maybe get some therapy instead. The poor guy needs it!.

This show rarely addresses how emotionally damaged Derek must be.  I get that it's just not a direction they want to go, but instead they're just flattening him out and losing some of what makes him who he is.  Or I guess to be fair, I should say who I think he is.  Maybe I just like the dark edge he had in S1, and the fact that he's become relatively mild now except when they need him to be flung against a wall is annoying to me.  He's lost most of his family, he's had at least two supposed girlfriends turn out to be psychotic killers, he's lost his betas, he's lost his Alpha status, etc.  And yet he's turning into Deaton Jr.  It makes no sense to me.

[caseylane]

OMG, I can't believe I made so many mistakes in my first post, and I don't see an edit button. Forgive me.

Anyway, I agree. Derek has the potential to have a really good part on this show, being the victim in so many ways. Jeff Davis doesn't seem to think that's a point of interest though, instead focusing on Scott's True Alpha status. I get it, his character is the lead, but that doesn't mean people won't find other things just as interesting.

[Lisin]

@caseylane if you hover your mouse over your post at the bottom you'll see a pencil symbol which is your edit button though I can't remember if there's a time limit on that or not, if you have something you want changed feel free to flag it and report it and I'll take care of it. That's the little triangle exclamation point button located next to the edit button. 

[jeannie]

I totally agree that they need to do something more interesting with Derek. He's my 2nd favorite character (after Stiles). I admit this is probably due to the eye candy factor, but I really do like Tyler H. My wish for S4 is for him to team up with Chris Argent (please tell me he's sticking around) to fight the bad guys and be somewhat of a mentor to Scott and Isaac. And save any romance for a later season.

[bettername2come]

 

My wish for S4 is for him to team up with Chris Argent (please tell me he's sticking around) to fight the bad guys and be somewhat of a mentor to Scott and Isaac.

Well, apparently Isaac isn't returning, which just leaves him with Scott. I would love to see him and Chris working together. I think they could end up having a Damon and Alaric style bromance going. The actors have had great chemistry, and I've thought that setting Derek up for interactions with more of the adult characters would help give the character more purpose. 

My wish for season 4 is for Derek to get a job. I understand that he's rich based on what their house looked like before the fire and the number of life insurance policies he would have cashed out after, but the man needs something to do. All of the other adults have a job that are central to the plot lines of the show.

[carlyhope]

My wish for season 4 is for Derek to get a job.

 

I would really like it if he became a deputy. I would definitley like to see him bond with the Sheriff. And I also aggree that he and Chris have an interesting dynamic and now that Kate is back this could be an interesting way to both give the character a purpose and explore his guilt and trust issues.

I also think the mentor role suits him a lot. He is a protector and he seems to have a better grasp on the tough love routine after S2. Now that Isaac is gone I think I would love to see him bond with Kira. They had an interesting raport in that one episode they interacted togehter. I guess I just want to see him bond more with the character's in general. Sheriff, Stiles, Lydia, Kira.

This show rarely addresses how emotionally damaged Derek must be.

 

They just pile the damage on and have him take his shirt of. Which is such a shame because while Tyler is beautiful beyonf rhyme or reason I think he is alos very underrated as an actor, especially in this role. I lvoe derek's snark, he gives the character a vulnerability that is generaly ignored by the writing.

I would love it thoguh I'm not holding my breath for it, if they addressed the being-used-for-nefarious-purposes theme He and Stiles and Lydia went through.

[ElleryAnne]

I could enjoy the idea Derek working with the Sheriff - bonding would be even better - if it's done well.  Since the Sheriff knows about him, and Derek and Stiles have worked together a couple of times it would make some sense.  Also, Derek and Deputy Parrish are about the same age and it might be good to see Derek have a friend or colleague who's not a teen and not a parent.  (Of course, that's assuming Ryan Kelley is coming back next season.  I think he is?  He seems to have chosen to be in Beacon Hills for a reason, so I'm thinking we may see why.  But that's just speculation on my part.)  

The thing is, I don't want Derek to become just the guy on the police force who happens to be a werewolf.  I like the darker side of Derek.  I don't want that to be lost.  I know he's becoming a good mentor for Scott, and I like that he's not being treated as a villain by the Scooby gang anymore, but I don't want them to lose sight of who he is.  It seems like they're taking a gothic Bronte kind of character and turning him into Buffy's Giles.  And that's not quite it, but that's the way it feels to me.  I think Deputy Derek has potential, but it could also be the equivalent to moving Derek to the Friday night time slot.

It's probably my own fault, but I feel let down by the writers lately.  I don't trust them anymore where Derek is concerned.  When I saw Kate show up at the end of the finale, I wanted to think, "Whoa, that's an interesting showdown in the making," or, "Uh-oh, how will that play into the tentative trust he's establishing with Chris", and instead I just went, "Oh, no, please don't make them get together." Because yeah, abuse and violation of a person leave long-term effects, and not all showrunners seem to remember that once the next story arc gets underway.

[carlyhope]

I like the darker side of Derek.

 

Can you please elaborate on this? I'm someone who never saw him in any way as a villain so I would be interested to see where you are coming from. I'm actually pissed at the show rather often when they treat him as a murderer. To me he is the hero they want us believe Scott to be. He understand that sometimes you need to make hard decissions but ultimately he is more then willing to sacrifice himself to save others.

I think a lot of his "darkness" comes from guilt and pain. In this regard it was really interesting to see the Paige flashback even though that storyline itself felt like huge retconning. He was apparently a cocky and a bit naive and stubborn.

Don't even let me start with Kate. I have very little faith in teh writers when it comes to Derek and I honeslty can't see how this can go anyway but terribly wrong. Unless Kate tears Gerard to pieces and is subsequenlty set on fire by Chris I don't really care much for another villain coming back or another werecreature.

Yes, Derek having actual friends who are not teens or parents woudl be great. Though I would love for him to have a family again. And both Chris and Papa Stilinski would understand him in both the pain adn the guilt, at least somewhat.

[ElleryAnne]

When I say "the darker side of Derek" I don't mean to imply that he's a villain or a murderer.  I'm talking about that guilt and pain, and the way that when we first meet him he wears it like a dark cloud.  He's the guy who lives in the burned-out shell of his family's home, and who appears practically out of nowhere to stand silently, watching and brooding. And who uses anger as his anchor to control his wolf. And who essentially bullies Stiles into helping him a couple of times because he's really got no one else and he's exactly not the kind of guy who makes friends everywhere he goes. And he's intense and a bit frightening when he tells Scott that they're like brothers now that Scott's a werewolf.  He's not a sunny guy, is what I guess I'm saying.  And I like that about him.  (I guess the real thing is, my favorite character type is the one who's troubled, moody, secretive, protective, dangerous and vulnerable.  Derek ticks off all the boxes, and then does shirtless chin-ups and one-armed push-ups next to the list.  And he's played by Tyler Hoechlin.  What was I saying again?)  

I tend to ignore the Paige episode. I suppose I should take into consideration the Derek we see in that ep, but the retconning annoyed me so I don't give it much credit.

As for Kate - having Chris set her on fire isn't good enough. She trapped a family - including children - in a house and set the place on fire to burn them to death.  Her punishment should be something long-term and painful, like Prometheus got, only worse.  I hope Peter gets to kill her again, because as much as I love emotionally-damaged Derek, I don't want him to carry any confused guilt if he does end up being the one to kill her.

[Ace Hansen]

I'm someone who never saw him in any way as a villain so I would be interested to see where you are coming from.

I don't think of Derek as a villain, but he's definitely had some dark moments. In particular for me, manipulating a bunch of messed-up teenagers into becoming werewolves, two-thirds of whom ended up dead very quickly. It was also difficult to watch him being violent with Isaac when training him, considering Isaac's past abuse.

Season three was good for raising my opinion of Derek, but he has a way to go before I'd consider him as to be as good a leader as Scott.

[Ahoyle]

I'm definitely interested in the dynamic Chris Argent and Derek are going to share next season with all the Kate stuff. Their budding bromance, combined with the return of Chris's sister and Derek's arch-enemy is bound to create something incredibly compelling. I really hope they explore the dynamic between the three deeply, instead of just focusing on Scott and Co. come and save the day and destroy Kate. There's a lot of story to be told with Derek and I think bringing Kate back is probably the way they're finally deciding to tell it. 

Edited April 5, 2014 by Ahoyle

[caseylane]

I would agree Ahoyle, except I'm so tired of the dead being brought back. It's tiresome and I find my excitement for he show waning. Right now I'm watching for Stiles, Derek and the parents. I  picture Kate either getting a redemption arc or chewing scenery and neither interest me. I would rather watch Derek adjusting to having an Alpha that's younger and morally different than what he's used to.

[carlyhope]

caseylane, I very much agree with your statement except as someone who doesn't particulary likes Scott I don't see Scott as Derek's Alpha. I don't see Scott as an Alpha at all, but that is another discussion altogether.

Derek, Stiles, Kira and the parents are the main draw fro me as well. Although if derek goes, I go.

 

Season three was good for raising my opinion of Derek, but he has a way to go before I'd consider him as to be as good a leader as Scott.

 

I have always considered Derek a better leader than Scott, even at his lowest. To me a leader is not only someone whom people like and follow  but also someone who is able to make hard decissions and shoulder the consequences.  And Derek does that, often even more of the latter than is his share. And until Scott proves he is able to do that I can't see him as a leader no matter how many inspirational speeches Derek aims our way.

I understand where are you coming from regarding the trio. Derek was in a bad place and desperate but I think it was stated rather clearly that he told them about consequences. I think here also comes into play another difference between Scott and Derek. Derek sees the bite as a gift, Scott as a curse.

Also, there is the other side of teh coin, Derek, who lost his whole family, chose those 3 and offered them something they wanted, needed - family (Boyd), strenght (Isaac) and health (Erica). He was learning as he was going and he was making mistakes but he tried with what he was given. And ultimately he was not only willing to let them go if they decided so, but would die for them. In 3A after he lost his red eyes he became the Alpha he was never meant to be.

As for Isaac's abuse, that is a big issue that is not so much Derek's as the show's. They often treat is as a joke and that makes it hard to empatize in the instances when it's meant to be serious. But that is for another thread.

Edited April 8, 2014 by carlyhope

[Ace Hansen]

but I think it was stated rather clearly that he told them about consequences.

We don't really know, since we didn't see the conversations. But we did see inappropriate sexual manipulation of Erica. I can't excuse Derek making any of those three in to werewolves. I'm glad he's gradually making better decisions but he's started way back on the wrong foot for me. I think he's learning not to use and hurt other people for his own ends and I admire that growth but I wasn't a fan of him at all in seaons one and two.

[Carrie Ann]

Derek is one of my favorite characters, but that doesn't mean I would deny that he has done a lot of bad things, because that would deny a lot about his journey on the show, from my perspective. It doesn't mean that he is inherently a bad person, or that he hasn't become a better person along the way. You could probably argue that he's undergone more change in three seasons than anyone on the show.

I see S2 as him at his worst--he let the power go to his head and wanted a pack of his own. And while Isaac, Erica, and Boyd all had issues pre-turn, two of them died within months of being turned. Not sure they'd make the same choice, given the chance again. He really downplayed the danger, the urges, the loss of control. He was selling them on turning; he wasn't doing something selfless to help them. Even if he was rushing to build a pack because the Alpha Pack was coming, that still doesn't excuse it, frankly. It just means he lied to them about more things in order to manipulate the situation. Same for Scott--if he really needed strength on his side, why turn on Scott when he wouldn't join the pack? Why not tell him what was coming and why he needed him?

Anyway, then he used his new pack to hurt Scott and others. He almost had them kill Lydia because he was convinced she was the kanima and wouldn't hear arguments against it. He didn't train them properly before their first full moon and they all escaped, putting their lives and innocent lives at risk. Boyd and Erica didn't feel he was a strong enough Alpha to remain in his pack. These are just a few examples of him not being a great leader in S2.

So he's grown up since then and he wouldn't act like that anymore. Now I think he'd be a great Alpha. Season 3 has really redeemed him, but now they need to do something new with him, because he was completely wasted in 3B.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[ElleryAnne]

I've always thought that some of the power trip he was on was attributable to the actual physiological effects of taking on the Alpha power - almost like a hormonal or chemical effect - that would cloud a werewolf's thinking for awhile until they adjusted to it.  I think something to that effect was mentioned once during S1 or S2?  Also, there's the fact that werewolves want to be in packs - it gives them more power and more protection.  So I give Derek a bit of leeway with some of his choices, because he's not making those choices from a purely "human" place. 

[Carrie Ann]

I guess I'm trying to separate reasoning from justifying/excusing when it comes to characters like Derek with checkered histories. I think, given all of the background for his behavior, the growth he's shown since that season is impressive because of all he had to accept and overcome.

[ElleryAnne]

I agree he's shown some growth.  (Not only the fur kind.)   I'm not trying to excuse his behavior in S2 - if I could attribute what he did with the betas to Derek just doing bad things I happily would, because I like characters that are dark and messed-up.  I just don't think it's that plain in this case.  The werewolf side of Derek is something that's legitimately a part of him. Sometimes that would influence his priorities and behaviors.  It hasn't seemed to, lately, and I don't really know how much of that is character growth and how much is just that the writers were too busy with Stiles' storyline to invest much time in Derek.

[greenbean]

I'll never like what he did to Erica, Boyd and Isaac. He certainly lied through omission by not telling them about the coming Alpha pack. He was a terrible leader, they all abandoned him and rightly so. But he improved in S3, he was much more of team player.

 

I agree with others that his best moments are with Argent. He doesn't seem to have a place on the show, and that could be it. To me, he's never come across as Scott's mentor. They've been at odds too much and Deaton better fits that role. With Argent he has good rapport and it's nice to see him interact with the adults.

[bettername2come]

I've really liked Derek so far this season. This is partially to blame on watching too many Hoechlin interviews recently and transferring love of actor to love of character. But I like that they've had him paired up with different people (and almost all adults!). Derek is good supernatural buddy cop material. He's also  been less creepy around the teenagers and generally nicer. 

[Yitzhak]

Ugh. Am I the only one who finds Derek a painfully badly written character? And in his S4 storyline especially? So this episode Derek gets told that a Banshee made a prophecy of his death and...Derek doesn't care? He's perfectly calm and chill about it? Even though he seems to take Lydia's foresight seriously.

 

So what is the point of this storyline then? It seems like such a waste of time to predict the death of a character and have that character completely unaffected by it. No conflict caused and still no seeming purpose to this revelation. Derek's vapid reaction just makes it feel like there are no stakes whatsoever.

 

The death prophecy just seems like the latest in a long line of random inexplicable plot-points they've pinned to Derek - the entombing, the de-aging, the eye-color change, losing wolf powers - which all feel so dramatically inert, because both Derek and the other characters barely react to any of them.        

Edited August 19, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ahisma]

Agreed. I miss the passion of all the kids piling in the car and sneaking into another country to save him. Now that he's back, "Oh, yeah, by the way ..." "Oh, okay. Thanks for the 411, I guess."

(Also, very dramatic, Derek's line, but Lydia wrote down Stiles' name, too. And it turns out he was only in danger of death, not actually imminently dying. So. I imagine it's the old forked future, thing, where fate is not completely destined and you can change the circumstances that are leading to death. Which means Derek's likely off the hook, too.)

[Yitzhak]

Yeah, I also questioned Derek's "Banshees don't predict danger, they predict death" line.

 

It seems to me Lydia often senses when her friends are in danger too. Like in 'Riddled' when Stiles went missing and was later possessed during the MRI, Lydia's banshee powers were going haywire. And yes, writing Stiles' name on the list of people whose suicides were faked at Eichen House too. Maybe they could claim there are different rules between Stiles and Lydia seeing as she was his tether for the surrogate sacrifice, therefore she has a closer connection to him? But I'm sure there have been times when Lydia has sensed danger for other characters who haven't ultimately died.    

 

There have already been so many unconvincing Derek death fakeouts it feels like the writers aren't even trying to make us think they might really be killing him off. Though honestly, Derek is the most expendable character these days and not being a werewolf anymore makes him even more useless. The show doesn't need Derek to be a human warrior when we already have Chris Argent. If we need Hale family history we have Peter. If we need obligatory shirtless scenes there's most of the young male cast (most recently Parrish). I can't think of anything else Derek brings to the table.       

Edited August 20, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ahisma]

Well, I'd prefer Derek be the go-to for Hale history rather than Peter continue to live! I would think Satomi and any other old allies would agree. :D