John Winchester: Daddy Dearest

[catrox14]

Tessa was letting Dean make the choice of going with her but she told him if  he didn't go, he would become a vengeful spirit which to me implies that he was dead when she was ready to take him. I Azazel stopped Tessa from taking Dean's soul. To me it's not clear but I have to wonder  why would Tessa tell him he would become a vengeful spirit it he wasn't dead yet?

[Myrelle]

I've always felt that machines were keeping Dean alive in IMTOD. She even said that he was living on "borrowed time"-which  could be interpreted as the machines or even the fact that from a natural order POV he should have died in Faith.

[rue721]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

So, Mary may not get all of that.  I think knowing he raised them as hunters, I agree she doesn't have a lot of room to criticize because she ultimately left her family vulnerable.  BUT, John's failures as a father went beyond just going into the hunting life. He really WAS obsessed.  Sam and Dean had to pull him back -- he was prepared to die to kill the YED and he still blamed Sammy for not shooting him. That's whack.  But I don't know if Mary is going to get the full picture.  

Yes, agree completely. I had even forgotten about John flipping out at Sam for not shooting him.

If Sam had been the one possessed, do you think John would have killed him?!

Anyway, from what little we've seen of her, I think Mary seems pretty astute. Plus, she's familiar with hunters, so she has enough context to get a reliable read on Sam and Dean. And, even if she doesn't know her sons too well now, she DOES know John. So I think maybe Mary will be able to fill in a lot of blanks herself, without necessarily being told, just based on observation and interacting with Sam and Dean.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They almost got it back in 2.1 when he acknowledged he shouldn't have saddled Dean with the kinds of responsibility as a little boy  that he did. But then nope it was gone again when in that same breath John re-upped Dean into that role (which yes by this time Dean was ingrained into doing) but he still essentially negated his entire apology. In a way, it's almost really as much manipulation of Dean in that moment as it was an apology.

I found that very manipulative. His tactic was called ingratiation and they teach it in business classes ffs. First you butter somebody up and tell them what they want to hear, and then once they're good and happy, you drop your big request. How he did it was textbook. Literally, that is in my Organizational Behavior textbook.

On the one hand, I'm not really cynical enough to believe that the manipulation was conscious or purposeful. On the other hand, John was no dummy, and he was also terrified for Sam and desperate for a way to protect him beyond the grave. So I dunno.

I have an enormous soft spot for John even as I bitch and moan about him, so I wouldn't say he lost or gained my sympathies at any particular point. I just go back and forth because I think he was a good person but he could be just so fucking abrasive!

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

He must have realized it most definitely when he learned of Adam, and the steps he took concerning Adam is even direct evidence of that. But still he wasn't brave enough to tell them of Adam at all.

I can see the viewpoint that training up kids to hunt is a way of protecting them. It's valid. I think John definitely believed that when he was raising Dean and Sam, and I think that Sam believes it now. After all, Sam enjoyed the idea of teaching "Adam" to hunt, etc. He also knows for a fact that he had a real choice to leave hunting and to enter the "normal world," because he left and succeeded in college. His choice to be a hunter was essentially one he made as an adult, when Jessica died.

But based on Dean's reaction when he found out that John had shielded Adam from the supernatural, and based on his history of trying to shield Sam from it, too (when they were kids), and even how he randomly tried to encourage Krissy to go to college and think beyond just the hunting life, I don't think that Dean thinks that training up your kids to be hunters is a way of protecting them. Imo, he seems like he believes the opposite.

Imo Adam was also in a fundamentally different situation from Dean and Sam anyway, though, because he was being raised by his mother, who wasn't a hunter or involved in the supernatural at all herself. She was raising him to live in her world, and John stopped in to visit. I don't know that John really had the option to train him to hunt tbh.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, I do think kept them moving because was paranoid something was after his family. He may not have known exactly what it wanted or what it was, but I think John when into survival/crisis mode after he went to see Missouri and stayed there for the next 23 years. He just couldn't think long-term, but was all about surviving til the next day.

I think initially he just couldn't be at their (burnt out) house in Lawrence, so he took his kids to crash at some motel. Maybe when it was time to leave, he just took them to another motel, and then another and another and that eventually became their life.

It just doesn't seem that thought out to me, even from a safety standpoint. Motel rooms aren't dangerous per se but they're not *especially* safe. There are spare keys to your room in the office (at least), you're surrounded by strangers, etc. To me, it's like how Dean is all about the diner food. Feeding the kids at diners and crashing at motels seems like a lifestyle based on convenience imo.

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I also suspect that John knew that had he let Dean die, that with Dean's death, he would lose all connection to Sam and not be able to protect him from the YED's plans. Of course, I also believe that he loved Dean enough to want to take his place. 

Very good point. I hadn't thought of that, but now that you say it, it makes sense.

Maybe that's also why he left Sam and Dean alone in S1 -- to bond them?

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Maybe that's also why he left Sam and Dean alone in S1 -- to bond them?

I think it's more that John was originally thinking they were adults and he could just be free to pursue is obsession/keep them safe combined with being ashamed to face them, especially Dean, after not acknowledging Dean's distraught pleading to call him back and then hiding from them in Missouri's house and then not communicating with him when Dean was literally dying after being electrocuted. 

[Partly]

18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yes, agree completely. I had even forgotten about John flipping out at Sam for not shooting him.

If Sam had been the one possessed, do you think John would have killed him?!

Of course not. In this case, I think John (much like Dean OFTEN does) sees himself as the expendable one.  He wasn't necessary for Dean and Sam to survive if the demon was gone.  He was willing to die as long as the he could take the Demon with him.  His entire life after Mary's death -- well, once he discovered the "truth is out there" -- was to keep Dean and Sam safe. 

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think initially he just couldn't be at their (burnt out) house in Lawrence, so he took his kids to crash at some motel. Maybe when it was time to leave, he just took them to another motel, and then another and another and that eventually became their life.

This is a very interesting link: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=The_Journal_(diary_entries). Back in the day, the official Supernatural website had hunter's journals on them. It doesn't exist anymore, but this page has what was on John's page. Anyway, it details the weeks after the fire. Apparently John and the boys stayed with his business partner and friend for well over a month--which lines up with what the the guy told Sam and Dean in Home. It details the weeks of John trying to piece it all together and kinda shows John's increasing paranoia until he up and bolts with the boys just before Christmas. 

It's not technically canon since it wasn't on-screen--it was created by the show, though, as an early attempt at trying to engage fans online--but it does give a fuller picture of what John was going through in the aftermath of the fire.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Tessa was letting Dean make the choice of going with her but she told him if  he didn't go, he would become a vengeful spirit which to me implies that he was dead when she was ready to take him. I Azazel stopped Tessa from taking Dean's soul. To me it's not clear but I have to wonder  why would Tessa tell him he would become a vengeful spirit it he wasn't dead yet?

Just like the Reaper was trying to reap Bobby before the lights went dark, I think Reapers can apparently take a soul if the conclusion is inevitable.

Which makes me wonder about Billie -- if Dean had just gone with her, even though he was ultimately revived (and thus revivable) -- was she cheating?  Is that something they are allowed to to? Take a soul before they are technically dead?  

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

Which makes me wonder about Billie -- if Dean had just gone with her, even though he was ultimately revived (and thus revivable) -- was she cheating?  Is that something they are allowed to to? Take a soul before they are technically dead?  

Ohhhh. Good question. Hmmm, if Death isn't around to mitigate their choices, maybe she could. I mean to me ultimately it's Death that keeps the natural order (unless you're Dean Winchester and the Apocalypse is nigh). An entity with God-powers can restore life but I wonder if Death could/would intervene.  Also, I'll be bet Death would be none to happy with Mary's resurrection.  Hmm...I hope maybe Death isn't dead and just took a vacation and he comes back to restore the natural order.

Edited September 30, 2016 by catrox14

[Partly]

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

Which makes me wonder about Billie -- if Dean had just gone with her, even though he was ultimately revived (and thus revivable) -- was she cheating?  Is that something they are allowed to to? Take a soul before they are technically dead?

A bigger question:  if a person can refuse to be reaped and become a ghost, how could Billie reap Dean and Sam and toss them into the big empty?  Couldn't they just refuse and become ghosts?  Do the other reapers just voluntarily leave them stay when they could, what, drag them out of this world against their will?

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's more that John was originally thinking they were adults and he could just be free to pursue is obsession/keep them safe combined with being ashamed to face them, especially Dean, after not acknowledging Dean's distraught pleading to call him back and then hiding from them in Missouri's house and then not communicating with him when Dean was literally dying after being electrocuted. 

John completely vanished, though. If all he was looking for was some space, he could at least have sent Dean a text to say "im ok c u l8r." (And yes, that's how the text would have read. It was 2005 after all. T9 keyboards as far as the eye could see ;) ).

1 hour ago, Partly said:

Of course not. In this case, I think John (much like Dean OFTEN does) sees himself as the expendable one.  He wasn't necessary for Dean and Sam to survive if the demon was gone.  He was willing to die as long as the he could take the Demon with him.  His entire life after Mary's death -- well, once he discovered the "truth is out there" -- was to keep Dean and Sam safe. 

I agree that he thought he was expendable. In fact, he was self-destructive, to the point that sometimes it seemed like he was looking to get himself killed.

But I don't think he was really extraordinarily focused on Dean and Sam's safety. He was pretty hard on them, and was even willing to just cut them loose if they didn't obey him. He cut Sam loose when Sam decided to go to college, and in Bad Boys, he apparently did the same to Dean. So my impression was that he was more concerned about them acting right then about their safety.

And honestly, imo it's legitimate for a parent to be more concerned about his kids being good than safe. So I can't really fault him for that in and of itself. I do think he lost perspective on what "acting right" and "being good" meant, though, and that's where I think he started going wrong. Well, and he lost perspective in general, which became a pretty big problem.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

John completely vanished, though. If all he was looking for was some space, he could at least have sent Dean a text to say "im ok c u l8r." (And yes, that's how the text would have read. It was 2005 after all. T9 keyboards as far as the eye could see ;) ).

Sorry, I don't understand your point here.  I'm pretty well hammering John for disappearing on Dean.  I"m not sure what you are getting at here.

[Partly]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Well, and he lost perspective in general, which became a pretty big problem.

Absolutely.  Of course, John is the poster boy for the saying "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."  John's problem was when he started to get paranoid and feel that there were evil things that are out to get him and his family -- it turned out to be FAR WORSE than he thought. 

Was John paranoid and secretive? Absolutely.  He had more than enough reason to be. 

[rue721]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's more that John was originally thinking they were adults and he could just be free to pursue is obsession/keep them safe combined with being ashamed to face them, especially Dean, after not acknowledging Dean's distraught pleading to call him back and then hiding from them in Missouri's house and then not communicating with him when Dean was literally dying after being electrocuted. 

 

Just now, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I don't understand your point here.  I'm pretty well hammering John for disappearing on Dean.  I"m not sure what you are getting at here.

How I read it, it seemed like you were saying that John figured Sam and Dean could take care of themselves now that they were grown, so he was free to go conduct an investigation on his own. And then later he realized that he should have been in better contact (eg he should have shown up when Dean almost died), so he started feeling ashamed to face them. Did I misunderstand?

I was saying that that doesn't really explain why John disappeared so completely to begin with, though. If there's no compelling reason not to talk to your sons, your relationship with them has just grown distant or you want it to be distant or whatever, wouldn't you still at least let them know that you're not dead and not to worry or come after you? John had to have known that Dean was starting to freak out, because I assume that Dean was trying to contact him before finally getting so worried that he went to Sam. And all it would have taken is a text or two. So I'm like, did John WANT Dean to freak out? Did he WANT him to have to turn to Sam for help and for the boys to get closer again? I don't get it.

And on top of that, I don't think it really makes sense to drop out of your sons' lives just because they don't need to rely on you for survival anymore. I mean, John and Dean seemed at least somewhat close. John didn't want to maintain a relationship with him just because, you know, that's his son and he loves him and is interested in his life? I do think that John loved his sons and Dean was obviously trying to be in contact with him, so I would think that John would have to have had a compelling reason to completely ignore Dean for months on end like that? Maybe a "compelling reason" like he needed to force Dean to turn to Sam and establish a relationship with him again, so that after John's death, Sam would still have a protector? (Not saying that's what John's reason actually was, just spitballing a possibility).

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

How I read it, it seemed like you were saying that John figured Sam and Dean could take care of themselves now that they were grown, so he was free to go conduct an investigation on his own. And then later he realized that he should have been in better contact (eg he should have shown up when Dean almost died), so he started feeling ashamed to face them. Did I misunderstand?

Yes, I think you did misunderstand to a degree. 

I'm saying John justified his shitty behavior in his own mind by thinking they were grown up and could take care of themselves.  And then he continued to avoid them because he was ashamed of having totally failed Dean when Dean needed him the most.  John is absolutely on my shit list in case there is any confusion. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

I was saying that that doesn't really explain why John disappeared so completely to begin with, though. If there's no compelling reason not to talk to your sons, your relationship with them has just grown distant or you want it to be distant or whatever, wouldn't you still at least let them know that you're not dead and not to worry or come after you? John had to have known that Dean was starting to freak out, because I assume that Dean was trying to contact him before finally getting so worried that he went to Sam. And all it would have taken is a text or two. So I'm like, did John WANT Dean to freak out? Did he WANT him to have to turn to Sam for help and for the boys to get closer again? I don't get it.

The thing with John being in survival/crisis mode is, he's not really making any well thought-out plans. He's just reacting to whatever gets thrown at him all the time. It makes him erratic and contradictory much of the time. The sheer fact that he trained Sam and Dean to be hunters kinda contradicts his reason for training them to be hunters. I mean, how do keep someone out of danger by teaching them to walk right into it? 

I think John believed it was safer for everyone if he went after the demon alone and that's why he stayed hidden from them in S1. But, since he hadn't planned for any contingencies, he keeps having to adjust to what everyone else is doing. Which, more often than not, contradicted what he was actually trying to do.

To torture a sports metaphor: It's really just that John had no plays, offensive or defensive; didn't even really know the game until he started to play. He just went out on the court and scrambled around hoping to get the ball and score. Of course, he rarely did get the ball, and when he finally did, he ended up scoring for the other team.

[Bessie]

It occurs to me that any judgement I make of John is based on the perspectives of his sons. That's not to dismiss them, but i think I'd enjoy an episode from his point of view. Without that, I feel like there's a huge missing piece when I try to understand him and his actions. 

[rue721]

28 minutes ago, Bessie said:

It occurs to me that any judgement I make of John is based on the perspectives of his sons. That's not to dismiss them, but i think I'd enjoy an episode from his point of view. Without that, I feel like there's a huge missing piece when I try to understand him and his actions. 

Awesome idea! That would be so cool!

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think John believed it was safer for everyone if he went after the demon alone and that's why he stayed hidden from them in S1. But, since he hadn't planned for any contingencies, he keeps having to adjust to what everyone else is doing. Which, more often than not, contradicted what he was actually trying to do.

I think John was generally aiming to draw the YED away from the boys.

In that context, maybe he thought that it would be best if they didn't know anything about where he was or what he was doing (and that their ignorance was OBVIOUS. I.e., they were going around the country asking about him and chasing any possible lead). That way, the YED wouldn't bother to torture them for info on him.

I'm torn about how strategic I think his decisions w/r/t the boys were. He was something of a strategist (as a hunter), and he was really smart, so I have to think that he had SOME method to his madness. But he also seemed like he was hanging onto sanity by his fingernails, so maybe it wasn't much of a "method" after all! Or at least not a logical one.

Quote

The sheer fact that he trained Sam and Dean to be hunters kinda contradicts his reason for training them to be hunters. I mean, how do keep someone out of danger by teaching them to walk right into it? 

Hmmmm well I don't know if that in particular is that contradictory, because I don't know that John was really trying to keep Sam and Dean out of danger? I mean, I don't think that he wanted them to get in over their heads! Although I think that was party worry for them and partly worry that they'd screw up, lol.

I think the idea was that he was training them as soldiers, he was weaponizing them, and then when they were ready, he was going to deploy them in missions against the baddies. I think he saw himself as the general and them as his army.

And imo that's why he was so frustrated with Sam! He was trying to make Sam into a weapon that he could use to fight the good fight, but Sam just refused to be used or be useful!

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, I think you did misunderstand to a degree.

Sorry for that!

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think the idea was that he was training them as soldiers, he was weaponizing them, and then when they were ready, he was going to deploy them in missions against the baddies. I think he saw himself as the general and them as his army.

Interesting theory, but not sure one I can get behind. 

Personally, I think he taught them to hunt so they'd be able to protect themselves. He was scared and paranoid something was chasing them and wanted to make sure his kids didn't end up dead like Mary. I think he thought he was giving them something he'd wished someone had given him before Mary died--the knowledge he could've used to protect his family. I think the training was meant to keep them safe. But, IMO, it's a double-edged sword because in-order to keep them safe, he also had to put them in danger.

[Partly]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

The sheer fact that he trained Sam and Dean to be hunters kinda contradicts his reason for training them to be hunters. I mean, how do keep someone out of danger by teaching them to walk right into it?

I don't think that we can apply a "normal" definition of safe here.  In many ways, the Winchesters (and all hunters) live in a war-zone.  There are evil creatures, supernatural predators and untold unnatural forces at work trying to kill and destroy people.  There's a reason why non-hunters are called "civilians", after all.  Granted it may be more possible to avoid the "supernatural war" here in the US than it would be to avoid the "real war" in, say, Syria, so running and hiding and keeping the truth from them may have been an option.

On the other hand,  another way to keep them safe is to give them the knowledge and skills needed to fight the war.  Arm them with the facts of the world, no matter how harsh, and give them the means to survive out there.  

Of course, even John didn't tell them the whole truth.  He knew that things were after Sam but he didn't tell them that.  And it was only when he was dying that he finally told Dean -- which, of course, was a totally bastardly thing to do.  But then, even Dumbledore didn't know how to break the news to someone he loved that they would have to die.  And John is about as far from Dumbledore as you can get.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the training was meant to keep them safe. But, IMO, it's a double-edged sword because in-order to keep them safe, he also had to put them in danger.

He was training them for a job, though. I mean, they don't call it "the family business" for nothing. ;)

If it were just about training them enough to be able to keep themselves safe, then I don't think John would have had such a problem with Sam leaving when he did. Sam was already fully trained, he was an adult. But John was pissed because he expected that training to culminate in Sam actually becoming a hunter. Not just a lawyer who knew how to protect himself.

I do agree that the training started out being about self-defense. I mean, we saw stuff like John telling kid!Dean onscreen that he needed to protect Sam and then going over the training he needed to use to do that (I'm thinking of S1 Something Wicked). But imo it didn't stay just about self-defense.

[catrox14]

I think John treated Dean like a soldier more than Sam and he didn't really have a good strategy for managing their lives like normal people. I think John's expectations for Dean were all about him being a hunter/soldier continuing the family business but eventually retiring with the "I want Dean to have a home".  His wishes for Sam were for Sam to finish college and IMO eventually leave the hunting life once Azazel was out of the picture. I dunno maybe Sam going to college gave him hope for Sam's future. And I'm not gonna lie, it kind of always bothered me that he never encouraged Dean to go to college.  I mean maybe Dean never expressed that desire but I thought it was odd that there was such different desires for Dean vs Sam.  But he never saved money for Dean to have a down payment on a home but saved money for Sam's college, that he spent on ammo.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

If it were just about training them enough to be able to keep themselves safe, then I don't think John would have had such a problem with Sam leaving when he did. Sam was already fully trained, he was an adult. But John was pissed because he expected that training to culminate in Sam actually becoming a hunter. Not just a lawyer who knew how to protect himself.

I don't think John was mad Sam didn't want to do the job, but was scared of what would happen to Sam when John wasn't around to protect him anymore.

Personally, I believe John was never in the hunting for the long-term. He only started to hunt as a way to learn how to protect the boys and deal with whatever it was that killed Mary and, presumably, was after Sam. I think he always figured they'd quit hunting once the threat was dealt with, and he knew they all would be safe again. But, one day turned into another that turned into a month, then a year and 20 years later, Sam decided to walk out of the shadows John had hid him in. It's John's worst fear come true and he had no coping skills on how to deal with it other than issuing orders and ultimatums, IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And I'm not gonna lie, it kind of always bothered me that he never encouraged Dean to go to college.  I mean maybe Dean never expressed that desire but I thought it was odd that there was such different desires for Dean vs Sam.  But he never saved money for Dean to have a down payment on a home but saved money for Sam's college, that he spent on ammo.

Oh, I think John had a college fund for Dean he cashed in too. I don't think John had different desires for Sam vs Dean, he wanted them each to have whatever they wanted in life. Sam wanted to go to college and Dean wanted what he lost when he was 4 years old, his home and family. John was just saying he wanted them to be happy.

ETA: Now I'm wondering how old the boys were when he cashed in the college fund? I mean, Sam was only 6 months old when Mary died, did John keep putting money in it every month after her death and cashed it in years later once he realized he couldn't let Sam go to college? Or, did he cash it in for ammo right away? 

Edited October 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I think John had a college fund for Dean he cashed in too. I don't think John had different desires for Sam vs Dean, he wanted them each to have whatever they wanted in life. Sam wanted to go to college and Dean wanted what he lost when he was 4 years old, his home and family. John was just saying he wanted them to be happy.

ETA: Now I'm wondering how old the boys were when he cashed in the college fund? I mean, Sam was only 6 months old when Mary died, did John keep putting money in it every month after her death and cashed it in years later once he realized he couldn't let Sam go to college? Or, did he cash it in for ammo right away? 

I'm thinking he cashed it in right away when he bolted out of Lawrence.  Closed the bank accounts, most likely.  

[rue721]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

ETA: Now I'm wondering how old the boys were when he cashed in the college fund? I mean, Sam was only 6 months old when Mary died, did John keep putting money in it every month after her death and cashed it in years later once he realized he couldn't let Sam go to college? Or, did he cash it in for ammo right away? 

They probably got some kind of insurance payout from the fire, and maybe from Mary's death. They also had the proceeds from selling the house/lot. So maybe he initially put some of that money into "college funds" for the boys, and then cashed them in once his own portion ran out (but probably before he started scamming in earnest).

ETA:

I mean that I think the college funds might have been created WHEN Mary died, with the money from the insurance payouts/house sale.

Wouldn't it be weird to have college funds for children not even old enough for school yet?

Edited October 1, 2016 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm thinking he cashed it in right away when he bolted out of Lawrence.  Closed the bank accounts, most likely.  

I was leaning that way because he would need money to hit the road with two young boys and it was before he started running credit card scams. But then, I started thinking about John probably wasn't thinking it would be long-term. Probably thought Sam and Dean would still get to use those college funds, but later realized they could never use them and they really needed ammo more. I just can't decide which theory I like more. ;)

[rue721]

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm thinking he cashed it in right away when he bolted out of Lawrence.  Closed the bank accounts, most likely.  

Wouldn't the kids have inherited money from Mary (via her life insurance) separately?

I'm envisioning the kids' portion of the insurance payout going straight to trusts (aka, the "college funds") because they were minors. But the trusts would likely have another trustee besides John, like the lawyer who wrote Mary and John's wills for example. So I would think that John would just leave the kids' trusts/accounts for a while, even if he cashed out HIS accounts.

Although, why would he bother cashing out any accounts anyway? Why not just hit the road? Seems unwise to be carrying a huge amount of cash.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think John treated Dean like a soldier more than Sam and he didn't really have a good strategy for managing their lives like normal people. [...] And I'm not gonna lie, it kind of always bothered me that he never encouraged Dean to go to college.  I mean maybe Dean never expressed that desire but I thought it was odd that there was such different desires for Dean vs Sam.  But he never saved money for Dean to have a down payment on a home but saved money for Sam's college, that he spent on ammo.

I agree that John treated Dean more like a soldier than Sam (imo John/Dean had a completely different dynamic than John/Sam, so I think that differences like that were inevitable, though).

(And also, I think that John/Dean's dynamic was pretty messed up and damaging for BOTH of them, but eh. Still thinking that one through!).

I also agree that John had no practical strategy for leaving hunting. I know they brought it up in-show at one point that John was always saying that their lifestyle (on the road) was temporary. Maybe he even believed it was? But he made it pretty impossible for them ACTUALLY to leave hunting. It was literally all Sam knew, for one, and pretty close to that for Dean. John never taught them what "normal life" actually was or prepared them for it. And then on top of that, John got all pissed when Sam actually did leave anyway! So imo the idea of them leaving hunting behind was an obvious fantasy.

I'm not that pressed about who had a college fund (etc) though. Irl I don't even see the point of them. Doesn't having assets in your name make it harder to get good scholarships? In any case, I never had one, and it wasn't a statement about how much my parents wanted me to go to school.

Why would John even have special accounts earmarked for his sons anyway -- where is the money funding these accounts coming from, fraud?

ETA:  Actually, Mary might have left behind a pretty significant inheritance, thinking about it now, because she must have inherited from her parents already by the time she died. And it seemed like her parents had done pretty well for themselves.

Edited October 1, 2016 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Why would John even have special accounts earmarked for his sons anyway -- where is the money funding these accounts coming from, fraud?

There's a scene in Dead Man's Blood where John tells Sam, when he was born he opened a "college fund" for him--I imagine he did the same thing for Dean when he was born too--and put money in it every month as a way to illustrate this wasn't the life he envisioned for Sam. It's actually a really nice scene where John basically tells Sam that he's sorry for reacting the way he did to Sam wanting to go to college, but he was scared and didn't know how else to deal with it. The scene ends with Sam asking what happened to the money. John said he cashed it in for ammo which Sam said sounded about right. 

This wasn't a trust fund, though, but more like a savings account. You start off with a small amount of money when the kid is young--could be as low as $100--and add to it regularly over the years so it accumulates in a large enough sum by the time the kid goes to college. So the money was coming from John's job he had before he hit the road. If he didn't cash them in right away, they'd just sit there accumulating interest until someone closed the account.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I also agree that John had no practical strategy for leaving hunting. I know they brought it up in-show at one point that John was always saying that their lifestyle (on the road) was temporary. Maybe he even believed it was? But he made it pretty impossible for them ACTUALLY to leave hunting. It was literally all Sam knew, for one, and pretty close to that for Dean. John never taught them what "normal life" actually was or prepared them for it. And then on top of that, John got all pissed when Sam actually did leave anyway! So imo the idea of them leaving hunting behind was an obvious fantasy.

Of course it was fantasy, but that fantasy is how John rationalized how he was raising his kids. It wasn't permanent, someday, they'd get to be real boys and this crappy life would all be a distant memory. And, of course John didn't prepare them for a normal life because everything was temporary to John after Mary died. That's what crisis mode is all about; getting through the next hour, the next day. It's not sitting down and planning for your future, but surviving the here and now. That's how I believe John operated after he hit the road with the boys, right up until he died. 

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I don't even see the point of them. Doesn't having assets in your name make it harder to get good scholarships?

It makes it harder to get financial aid--loans and grants--but most scholarships are awarded based on merit, not income. The point of a college fund is that your kid won't have to apply for financial aid or scholarships. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

Once again I've been too long in writing my post, and Dittydotdot said everything already.  So I'll just give the actual quote from SuperWiki (because once a librarian, always a librarian): 

JOHN: I don't think I ever told you this but ... the day you were born, you know what I did?
SAM: No. 
JOHN: I put a hundred bucks into a savings account for you. I did the same thing for your brother.  It was a college fund. And every month I'd put in another hundred dollars, until... Anyway my point is, Sam, this is never the life that I wanted for you.
SAM: Then why'd you get so mad when I left?
JOHN : You gotta understand something. After your mother passed all I saw was evil, everywhere. And all I cared about was keeping you boys alive. I wanted you...prepared. Ready. Except somewhere along the line I ... uh ... I stopped being your father and I ... I became your, your drill sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy, it just... it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me -- We're just different. 

Sam then asked what happened to the money, and he said "spent it on ammo," which Sam thought was funny.

 

I had a whole long complicated post I started last night on John and my thoughts on his training/parenting, but most of my points have already been made by various people here.  Maybe later I'll cut it down to just a bullet-point summary of things that haven't been brought up already.  Once I get my brain working again.  

[rue721]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Once again I've been too long in writing my post, and Dittydotdot said everything already.  So I'll just give the actual quote from SuperWiki (because once a librarian, always a librarian): 

JOHN: I don't think I ever told you this but ... the day you were born, you know what I did?
SAM: No. 
JOHN: I put a hundred bucks into a savings account for you. I did the same thing for your brother.  It was a college fund. And every month I'd put in another hundred dollars, until... Anyway my point is, Sam, this is never the life that I wanted for you.
SAM: Then why'd you get so mad when I left?
JOHN : You gotta understand something. After your mother passed all I saw was evil, everywhere. And all I cared about was keeping you boys alive. I wanted you...prepared. Ready. Except somewhere along the line I ... uh ... I stopped being your father and I ... I became your, your drill sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy, it just... it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me -- We're just different. 

Sam then asked what happened to the money, and he said "spent it on ammo," which Sam thought was funny.

 

I had a whole long complicated post I started last night on John and my thoughts on his training/parenting, but most of my points have already been made by various people here.  Maybe later I'll cut it down to just a bullet-point summary of things that haven't been brought up already.  Once I get my brain working again.  

Such a sweet scene! Thanks for mentioning it, @DittyDotDot, and thanks for posting it @ahrtee.

And for what it's worth, I'm interested in your post(s)! No worries either if points have been made before, imo.

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Of course it was fantasy, but that fantasy is how John rationalized how he was raising his kids. It wasn't permanent, someday, they'd get to be real boys and this crappy life would all be a distant memory. And, of course John didn't prepare them for a normal life because everything was temporary to John after Mary died. That's what crisis mode is all about; getting through the next hour, the next day. It's not sitting down and planning for your future, but surviving the here and now. That's how I believe John operated after he hit the road with the boys, right up until he died. 

That's so sad. I mean, I can see it being the case, but what about when Sam and Dean started getting older and their options started narrowing?

I mean when Dean dropped out and when Sam decided to leave for college. Why handle Dean leaving school like it was no big deal and/or flip out at Sam for continuing school? Dean was making very permanent choices based on their supposedly temporary lifestyle, and John wasn't worried about that? And Sam was preparing to leave that temporary lifestyle and John got so angry that he told him never to come back because of it?

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It makes it harder to get financial aid--loans and grants--but most scholarships are awarded based on merit, not income. The point of a college fund is that your kid won't have to apply for financial aid or scholarships. 

When I was in school, they sent out your financial aid offer at around the same time as your acceptance letter, because it was supposed to help sway you into choosing their school. I mean, I had outside scholarships, too, but a grant from the school took care of the vast majority of my tuition. So my thinking is, GO FOR GRANTS lol. But like I said, I had no college fund (and neither did any of my friends afaik) so it was all about positioning yourself for max financial aid.

Also, as a slight PSA, if you are planning to go to a university (for grad school, too) definitely go to the financial aid office or even a dean and flat out ask for more money. I have done that at three different schools (after getting my acceptance but before deciding where to actually go) and I got SIGNIFICANT money from two of those three because of it. I'm talking about offers of tens of thousands of dollars based on a five minute conversation. So definitely go for it and try to negotiate. And if it's for your kid's school, imo it's better to have THE KID ask. The only time that I didn't get the money is when I talked to the school along with my mom. Although I also don't know if it would have gone better if it had just been me, because that was also the school with the smallest endowment, so YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I mean when Dean dropped out and when Sam decided to leave for college. Why handle Dean leaving school like it was no big deal and/or flip out at Sam for continuing school? Dean was making very permanent choices based on their supposedly temporary lifestyle, and John wasn't worried about that? And Sam was preparing to leave that temporary lifestyle and John got so angry that he told him never to come back because of it?

Because Dean's permanent choice allowed John to continue living that fantasy that he was keeping them safe; Sam's permanent choice meant John wasn't going to be in control of Sam's safety anymore and tear down that fantasy. Perhaps John thought issuing that ultimatum would stop Sam from leaving, but, IMO, John was just shouting stuff he didn't actually mean in the heat of the argument. And, the stubborn ass that he was, wouldn't admit that until it was far too late to take it back.

Edited October 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Partly]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, John was just shouting stuff he didn't actually mean in the heat of the argument. And, the stubborn ass that he was, wouldn't admit that until it was far too late to take it back.

Yes.  Absolutely, yes.  Although my favorite line of John's that he says to Sam is:

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Sammy, it just... it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me -- We're just different. 

While he's right that he never considered what Sam (or Dean) wanted, he's absolutely wrong about the last past.  They're not different, they are remarkably the same.  It's a blindspot a great deal of parents have -- the inability to deal with their child's personality traits that mirror their own (often negative) personality traits.  Everyone said that you couldn't tell John Winchester anything and that is certainly mirrored in Sam's hatred of being told what to do.  Both of them, when they are sure they were right, dug their heels in and entrenched themselves in their opinion.

Yes. John was the adult and the parent -- but the sad truth about being a parent is that you are still the same flawed human you were to start out with.  All the love, the best intentions and even the knowledge that what you are doing isn't right doesn't change the fact that you still make stupid decisions and act poorly. The best you can hope for is that when your children grow up they can understand that.

[ahrtee]

17 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think John was mad Sam didn't want to do the job, but was scared of what would happen to Sam when John wasn't around to protect him anymore.

Personally, I believe John was never in the hunting for the long-term. He only started to hunt as a way to learn how to protect the boys and deal with whatever it was that killed Mary and, presumably, was after Sam. I think he always figured they'd quit hunting once the threat was dealt with, and he knew they all would be safe again. But, one day turned into another that turned into a month, then a year and 20 years later, Sam decided to walk out of the shadows John had hid him in. It's John's worst fear come true and he had no coping skills on how to deal with it other than issuing orders and ultimatums, IMO.

*Definitely* yes to all this.  

I think when John first learned about the Supernatural, he was completely boggled.  He was looking for Mary's killer, but the more he learned about what else was out there, he realized he had to learn as much as he could in order to protect his family.  And the more he learned about other monsters, and the fewer leads he had on Mary's killer, the more he focused on learning about how to kill them.  To me, that's how/why he actually became a hunter.  Remember Cole?  He spent most of his adult life trying to track Human Dean to get revenge for his father.  When he found out Dean was a demon, the first thing he did was crawl into a library and learn everything he could about demons and how to kill them.  Imagine if Dean had disappeared with no leads, but Cole had also learned about vampires and werewolves and wendigos?  Maybe, if he was still so bound on revenge, he'd start hunting too, while he was looking for Dean.  Or maybe (he's not John, after all), he'd go home and use his new knowledge to protect his friends and family without actually going out *looking* for hunts (that's how he wound up hunting the Khan worm that took over his friend.)  

I think John originally planned just to teach Dean how to protect his brother, and never really intended to have him (much less both) become hunters (probably because, as Ditty said above, he didn't really think it would be permanent/wasn't thinking too much about the future).  That's also why he didn't even tell Sammy about monsters till he discovered it himself (though I think both John and Dean were trying to protect Sammy's innocence).  He trained Dean very carefully in what was needed to protect Sam--weapons, monster lore, and fighting--and trained Sam in basic things (like exercise, sparring and some weapons) so that he could take care of himself--though without knowing *what* he was protecting himself against.
 

16 hours ago, rue721 said:

I agree that John treated Dean more like a soldier than Sam (imo John/Dean had a completely different dynamic than John/Sam, so I think that differences like that were inevitable, though).

(And also, I think that John/Dean's dynamic was pretty messed up and damaging for BOTH of them, but eh. Still thinking that one through!).

I also agree that John had no practical strategy for leaving hunting. I know they brought it up in-show at one point that John was always saying that their lifestyle (on the road) was temporary. Maybe he even believed it was? But he made it pretty impossible for them ACTUALLY to leave hunting. It was literally all Sam knew, for one, and pretty close to that for Dean. John never taught them what "normal life" actually was or prepared them for it. And then on top of that, John got all pissed when Sam actually did leave anyway! So imo the idea of them leaving hunting behind was an obvious fantasy.

I think Dean being raised as more of a soldier was because of that "protect Sam" thing--plus the difference in their personalities.  I think Dean was always afraid that he'd lose his dad and Sam the way he'd lost his mom, and so was willing to do "whatever it takes" to keep them safe.  He was trained from age 6 or so (when John first took him shooting) to protect and defend; and after the Shtriga incident, he learned that he had to follow orders absolutely.  

But here’s where my (probably) UO comes in:   I think it was *Dean* who wanted to make hunting the “family business,” especially when he was young.  IMO, John’s first instincts would be to keep his sons out of danger, not throw them right in.  (There is a big difference between knowing what’s out there and how to defend against it, and actively putting someone in danger to fight it.)  But Dean desperately wanted John’s approval, and helping his dad gave him that.  Besides:

(a) Dean thought John was a superhero; specifically, he was saving people.

(b) Dean worried about John when he was hunting (this is extrapolated, but I think true—he was always afraid that John wouldn’t come back.)  There’s a whole world of fear there—Dean needed John to take care of Sam (because he was always afraid he wasn’t good enough); he was afraid he’d lose his dad the way he lost his mother; and, no matter how much he denied it, he was still just a kid and needed his dad.

(c) John trained Dean to protect; therefore why not protect John as well as Sam? And from there, he got a sense of self-worth by “saving people, hunting things,” just like his dad;

and (d) If John and Dean were out hunting, *someone* had to watch Sam (and he couldn’t imagine that Sam wouldn’t want to be a superhero, too.)

So…Dean started out staying home with Sam to keep him safe while Dad was out hunting monsters.  Both John and Dean wanted to keep Sam’s innocence as much as possible; but, when Sam learned about monsters, John had to start training him, too.  Once Sam was in training, Dean started pushing more to actually take part in the hunts, and Sam was dragged along, partly to learn and partly so he wouldn’t be left behind alone.  (I don’t know when John found out about the special children and that something was after Sam, but it was probably one of the main reasons he wanted Sam trained and along with them at all times.) 

With all three of them hunting together, John had to teach them to fight as a unit, with him as commander, and that was pretty much the end of any kind of “normal” for all three of them.  They were treated like soldiers, with no questioning of orders or backtalk allowed.  That’s when John became their “drill sergeant,” I think.  And that’s when Sam started rebelling, and Dean became caught in the middle, because by that time he couldn’t imagine any other way of life—this was what he thought was expected of him: protecting his family and saving civilians.  It was also the only thing he took pride in (not school or “normal” life) because it was the only way he could get approval from John.  And gradually, the “family business” became the norm for John and Dean, anyway; while Sam started rebelling more and more.

 

6 hours ago, rue721 said:

I mean when Dean dropped out and when Sam decided to leave for college. Why handle Dean leaving school like it was no big deal and/or flip out at Sam for continuing school? Dean was making very permanent choices based on their supposedly temporary lifestyle, and John wasn't worried about that? And Sam was preparing to leave that temporary lifestyle and John got so angry that he told him never to come back because of it?

 

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because Dean's permanent choice allowed John to continue living that fantasy that he was keeping them safe; Sam's permanent choice meant John wasn't going to be in control of Sam's safety anymore and tear down that fantasy. Perhaps John thought issuing that ultimatum would stop Sam from leaving, but, IMO, John was just shouting stuff he didn't actually mean in the heat of the argument. And, the stubborn ass that he was, wouldn't admit that until it was far too late to take it back.

I think DittyDotDot's answer is perfect for this.  John didn't really intend for them to start hunting in the first place, but by this time they'd been working as a unit for years and it had become their normal.  Sam leaving not only threatened the group but left Sam alone and at risk, especially if/when John knew that the YED (or something) was after him.  And John had spent so many years in"commander" mode that no, he couldn't back down, any more than a general would apologize to a foot soldier.  

So, IMO, it wasn’t all John’s fault that the boys became hunters; rather, a series of circumstances and not-very-well-thought-out reasons.   Of course, it’s entirely possible that the angels manufactured everything to keep the apocalypse on track and have the boys trained and ready when it happened.  Retconning is such a wonderful tool! 

Edited October 1, 2016 by ahrtee
For a little more clarity (I hope).

[ahrtee]

To be perfectly clear (if anyone has waded through my long convoluted post above) I'm not saying that John wasn't a crappy father in many respects.  Once they got settled in the "commander/soldier" mode, I don't think he took much notice of either boy's feelings or needs, and became first and foremost a hunter (even if a part of that was to protect Sam from Azazel and keep both of his sons out of a fight he wasn't expecting to come out of himself.)  But, while I can *maybe* think of some reasons/excuses for some of his later actions, I've never yet come up with a reasonable excuse for not at least *calling* either Sam or Dean in Faith.  No forgiveness from me on that one.

[Partly]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think it was *Dean* who wanted to make hunting the “family business,” especially when he was young. 

YES.  

Dean loved the hunting life.  I know that most times it's assumed that had Dean lived a "normal" life he would have been a mechanic, once again following in the "family business".  I supposed that was because that's what Dean was doing when the Djinn grabbed him, but I just don't see that.  His need to help people and his serious love of danger would not let him be happy as a mechanic, IMO.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I've never yet come up with a reasonable excuse for not at least *calling* either Sam or Dean in Faith.  No forgiveness from me on that one

The only possible explanation would be that John never got the messages.  In fact, it's the only way it makes sense to me.  John is an ass in many ways but having him KNOWINGLY not contact the boys when Dean was dying is unconscionable.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Partly said:

The only possible explanation would be that John never got the messages.  In fact, it's the only way it makes sense to me.  John is an ass in many ways but having him KNOWINGLY not contact the boys when Dean was dying is unconscionable.  

If he never got the messages, I'm pretty sure the show would have made that clear. And since we KNOW he avoided them in Home, I'm going with John Winchester is a POS father who ignored Dean and Sam's pleas.

Edited October 2, 2016 by catrox14

[Diane]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If he never got the messages, I'm pretty sure the show would have made that clear. And since we KNOW he avoided them in Home, I'm going with John Winchester is a POS father who ignored Dean and Sam's pleas.

I agree and this is where I lost all respect for John.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Partly said:

Dean loved the hunting life.  I know that most times it's assumed that had Dean lived a "normal" life he would have been a mechanic, once again following in the "family business".  I supposed that was because that's what Dean was doing when the Djinn grabbed him, but I just don't see that.  His need to help people and his serious love of danger would not let him be happy as a mechanic, IMO.

The only possible explanation would be that John never got the messages.  In fact, it's the only way it makes sense to me.  John is an ass in many ways but having him KNOWINGLY not contact the boys when Dean was dying is unconscionable.  

Dean did mention in Devil's Trap that he always wanted to be a fireman (I think there was also a fireman's helmet in wee!Dean's room in Dark Side of the Moon), so that's the saving people/high danger mode that he would like.  

About not contacting the boys in Faith, as Catrox pointed out, Sam did confront him and John had no answer.  The *only* thing I can think of is that he couldn't handle it/was in denial/didn't want to face either of his boys, and was looking for a way to help without telling them (as he did in IMTOD.)  That doesn't mean I forgive him.  To me, it doesn't make him a POS dad entirely (because he did try in many other ways), but he always was crappy at supporting his kids.  

[rue721]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

John thought issuing that ultimatum would stop Sam from leaving, but, IMO, John was just shouting stuff he didn't actually mean in the heat of the argument. And, the stubborn ass that he was, wouldn't admit that until it was far too late to take it back.

What's hilarious to me is that Sam does the same thing.

Although to be fair, the instances I'm thinking of are from S8/9 and Sam was actually OOC a whole lot during that times period.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But here’s where my (probably) UO comes in:   I think it was *Dean* who wanted to make hunting the “family business,” especially when he was young.  IMO, John’s first instincts would be to keep his sons out of danger, not throw them right in.  (There is a big difference between knowing what’s out there and how to defend against it, and actively putting someone in danger to fight it.)  But Dean desperately wanted John’s approval, and helping his dad gave him that.  Besides:

(a) Dean thought John was a superhero; specifically, he was saving people.

(b) Dean worried about John when he was hunting (this is extrapolated, but I think true—he was always afraid that John wouldn’t come back.)  There’s a whole world of fear there—Dean needed John to take care of Sam (because he was always afraid he wasn’t good enough); he was afraid he’d lose his dad the way he lost his mother; and, no matter how much he denied it, he was still just a kid and needed his dad.

(c) John trained Dean to protect; therefore why not protect John as well as Sam? And from there, he got a sense of self-worth by “saving people, hunting things,” just like his dad;

and (d) If John and Dean were out hunting, *someone* had to watch Sam (and he couldn’t imagine that Sam wouldn’t want to be a superhero, too.)

So…Dean started out staying home with Sam to keep him safe while Dad was out hunting monsters.  Both John and Dean wanted to keep Sam’s innocence as much as possible; but, when Sam learned about monsters, John had to start training him, too.  Once Sam was in training, Dean started pushing more to actually take part in the hunts, and Sam was dragged along, partly to learn and partly so he wouldn’t be left behind alone.  (I don’t know when John found out about the special children and that something was after Sam, but it was probably one of the main reasons he wanted Sam trained and along with them at all times.) 

With all three of them hunting together, John had to teach them to fight as a unit, with him as commander, and that was pretty much the end of any kind of “normal” for all three of them.  They were treated like soldiers, with no questioning of orders or backtalk allowed.  That’s when John became their “drill sergeant,” I think.  And that’s when Sam started rebelling, and Dean became caught in the middle, because by that time he couldn’t imagine any other way of life—this was what he thought was expected of him: protecting his family and saving civilians.  It was also the only thing he took pride in (not school or “normal” life) because it was the only way he could get approval from John.  And gradually, the “family business” became the norm for John and Dean, anyway; while Sam started rebelling more and more!

Yeah, this is how I think that John/Dean's relationship was damaging to John as well as Dean. I think hunting was a bonding activity for them, which fanned the flames of an obsession with hunting for BOTH of them.

To me, it just seems inevitable that Dean was trained to hunt and became John's right hand man, because it seemed like he REALLY REALLY wanted that. Which imo makes sense, because Dean had all the same reasons to want to hunt that John did, plus more (like wanting to be like his dad). I think closing him out of that would have been dangerous and hurtful, so it makes sense to me that John trained him and worked with him.

Where it got unhealthy imo is that their relationship seemed to devolve into JUST a hunting partners relationship, instead of father/son. I also get the impression that it devolved that way pretty early on, because whenever their relationship comes up, it seems like 95% of the time it's in the context of John giving Dean some kind of job.

Where I think it's different with Sam is that the only aspect of hunting that kid!Sam seemed to actually care about was the bonding aspect. I don't think he actually cared that much about monsters/etc. For John and Dean, fighting monsters was apparently this deeply emotional, necessary thing, because they had this big loss (at the hands of a monster) hanging over their heads. But for Sam I don't think it was like that. I think he just didn't want to be left out.

The bonding didn't actually happen for Sam though, imo, because he couldn't find his way into John/Dean's little hunting clique of two, and because he and John just plain didn't work well together. I don't even get the impression that all three of them worked together all that much -- it seemed like it was usually Dean/John on the road, with Sam back "home" going to school and helping out where he could via telephone? Also, to be fair to Sam, nobody except Dean seemed to work with John for any length of time, so I think that Sam's inability to work well with him either was actually completely normal. But anyway. So I think for Sam, hunting was frustrating and alienating, so he was finally like "forget this!" and looked for his own path.

I think that John (and Dean) took that as a big rejection, actually. I think that's where a lot of the anger was coming from. But imo Sam was already feeling too alienated to even really register that.

Personally, where I can't get on board is with the idea that John was primarily worried about safety. His big complaint when Sam finally got back (in S1) was that Sam left when John and Dean "needed him." Then, when he was dying, he was telling Dean that maybe he'd have to KILL Sam! I dunno, I think that John cared deeply about Sam and Dean but he just didn't seem that safety conscious. I think he was WAY more worried about the boys being fuck ups than he was about them being safe.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam directly confronted him about it in "IMToD". John had no answer. If he never got the messages, I'm pretty sure the show would have made that clear. And since we KNOW he avoided them in Home, I'm going with John Winchester is a POS father.

Maybe he was on a bender? stuck in a hospital on a 5150? too depressed to manage dealing with his phone? in jail?

I dunno, something about John always says "alcoholic" to me, though, I can't help it. That's always my automatic assumption for why he acted the way he did, including his flaking out. Even though it's non-canon, so I try to brush it off.

Regardless, something about that man wasn't right.

ETA:  oh! and @ahrtee, thanks for deciding to post your comment after all! Really interesting and insightful.

[Partly]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam directly confronted him about it in "IMToD". John had no answer. If he never got the messages, I'm pretty sure the show would have made that clear. And since we KNOW he avoided them in Home, I'm going with John Winchester is a POS father.

I don't recall when Sam did this... I know that he was pissed at John about the current situation and saying that John didn't care, but I don't remember him confronting him about not coming when Dean was dying before.

Mostly this is a YMMV issue.  Since I see no upside to thinking that John is a complete and total bastard and since they didn't actually show he was on the show, I'll go with the "he didn't get it".  

[catrox14]

Just a quick correction on myself. I think I was conflating Sam screaming at John about summoning a demon when Dena was dying in IMTOD not about him not coming when Dean was dying in Faith. 

But I stand by the show not clarifying it and given John's track record on avoiding them in Home, there is no reasonable excuse other than John being dead. 

[ahrtee]

Just now, Partly said:

I don't recall when Sam did this... I know that he was pissed at John about the current situation and saying that John didn't care, but I don't remember him confronting him about not coming when Dean was dying before.

Mostly this is a YMMV issue.  Since I see no upside to thinking that John is a complete and total bastard and since they didn't actually show he was on the show, I'll go with the "he didn't get it".  

Actually, thinking it over, I think it was *Dean* who confronted him (was it in Salvation?) Anyway, it was when John snapped that they should have called him when Sam started having visions, and Dean told him all the times they'd *tried* to call him and he hadn't picked up.   In any event, I agree with Partly that John wasn't a complete bastard, and I'm guessing that in *his* mind he had good reasons.  They just never translated to his sons, or the viewers.  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, thinking it over, I think it was *Dean* who confronted him (was it in Salvation?) Anyway, it was when John snapped that they should have called him when Sam started having visions, and Dean told him all the times they'd *tried* to call him and he hadn't picked up.

I realized my mistake and corrected as we were all cross posting. But I knew someone confronted John about it. I went back to look at the transcript 
 

Quote

 

DEAN
We didn't know what it meant.
 

JOHN
All right, something like this starts happening to your brother, you pick up the phone and you call me.
 

DEAN dumps the coffee jug and cup back on the counter and strides toward JOHN.
 

DEAN
Call you? Are you kidding me? Dad I called you from Lawrence all right? Sam called you when I was dying. I mean, getting you on the phone? I got a better chance of winning the lottery.
 

JOHN
You're right. Although I'm not too crazy about this new tone of yours, you're right. I'm sorry.

 

John had the opportunity to explain right then and there why he didn't return the calls or communicate with them in some way and he didn't do it. Fuck John Winchester. He's an asshole.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Just a quick correction on myself. I think I was conflating Sam screaming at John about summoning a demon when Dena was dying in IMTOD not about him not coming when Dean was dying in Faith. 

But I stand by the show not clarifying it and given John's track record on avoiding them in Home, there is no reasonable excuse other than John being dead. 

The only excuse I could come up with in Faith was that John was in denial/couldn't face them/was working very hard BTS to find someone (ie, the faith healer) to save Dean without telling them (the same way he didn't tell anyone what he was planning in IMTOD, so that both of them accused him of not even trying to help.)  I'm guessing that might be because he didn't want his sons to know that he's willing to work with monsters in order to save them (the old, "do as I say, not as I do", not wanting to set a precedent--which obviously didn't take).  I'm still not forgiving him, though.   

Home, to me, was different.  They weren't really in any more physical danger than any other hunt, so he could justify avoiding them for the same reasons he gave later (too dangerous to them).  He never did take the emotional toll into account.  The only reason he came to town at all was because he thought it might be a lead on the demon.   Makes him flawed, not a POS.  

[Partly]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, thinking it over, I think it was *Dean* who confronted him (was it in Salvation?) Anyway, it was when John snapped that they should have called him when Sam started having visions, and Dean told him all the times they'd *tried* to call him and he hadn't picked up.

Yes!  Thank you, THIS I remember.  

[catrox14]

It's actually WORSE when I remember that Faith happened AFTER HOME. Dean literally BEGGED John with the actual words "I'm begging you, Dad. I need your help". So yeah John abandoned Dean in two of his most desperate moments.  Ugh. John Winchester is the worst.

[SueB]

I see Dean being attracted to Hunting (in priority order)

1) Bond with his father. John counted on Dean and this meant EVERYTHING to the attention starved kid with serious abandonment issues. 

2) It felt good to save people.  He could save them from pain and I suspect eased some of his own   If he hadn't had his loss and learned Hunting skills, these people would have suffered.

3) It justified his unusual and poverty plagued life. 'I'm a hero!' He said when being accused of being  a loser. I think when younger, Dean believed supporting his Superhero Dad was cool.  Then in his early teens, he was a little disillusioned with the lifestyle (Bad Boys).  I think he felt all the responsibility for Sam and none of the Hunting thrill yet.  THEN Dean kills his first monster and he 'had the bug' (Bloodlust). And he sees the nobility in the lifestyle. 

4)Shooting guns and killing monsters - 'perks' of the job (Skin). 

I think John would have kept up the obsessed Hunting even without Dean's enthusiasm.  I dont think he could have kept it up without adean's support. 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think John would have kept up the obsessed Hunting even without Dean's enthusiasm.  I dont think he could have kept it up without adean's support. 

I still come back to Dean being brainwashed/indoctrinated at such a young age with no ability to say no that became "supporting" John.  Before the age of say 12 or 13/14 how much choice did Dean really have other than doing what John wanted him to do and survive, literally?  Even if he had a thought to leave the life, he had Sam to look after.  Dean kind of never stood a chance to not become the "family business" guy.  Sam got off a little easier because of Dean sparing him the monster knowledge until Sam was what 8 or 9 when he was a bit older to process it and he had Dean there to help him be a "normal" kid.   

[ahrtee]

47 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, this is how I think that John/Dean's relationship was damaging to John as well as Dean. I think hunting was a bonding activity for them, which fanned the flames of an obsession with hunting for BOTH of them.

To me, it just seems inevitable that Dean was trained to hunt and became John's right hand man, because it seemed like he REALLY REALLY wanted that. Which imo makes sense, because Dean had all the same reasons to want to hunt that John did, plus more (like wanting to be like his dad). I think closing him out of that would have been dangerous and hurtful, so it makes sense to me that John trained him and worked with him.

Where it got unhealthy imo is that their relationship seemed to devolve into JUST a hunting partners relationship, instead of father/son. I also get the impression that it devolved that way pretty early on, because whenever their relationship comes up, it seems like 95% of the time it's in the context of John giving Dean some kind of job.

Thanks, Rue for reading!  I always worry that I talk/write too much and no one will read my posts.

I don't think Dean was obsessed with hunting because of Mary, though I'm pretty sure John thought so.  (I've noticed that a lot of people put their *own* reasons on other's actions without thinking about the way the other person thinks.  My family has always done that, and it used to drive me crazy.  Telling them my own/real reasons didn't help, just started more fights.  I think maybe that plays a large part in the Sam/John dynamic.)  

I still think Dean started hunting because of *John,* not Mary--wanting to protect, wanting his dad's approval.  *Saving people* became the obsession, not revenge.  That's what always set Dean apart from both John and Sam, IMO.  But yeah, eventually that became the only way John and Dean really related, because John really *was* obsessed, so it was the only thing they had in common (besides Sam, of course!)  And Dean desperately wanted that connection. 

47 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Where I think it's different with Sam is that the only aspect of hunting that kid!Sam seemed to actually care about was the bonding aspect. I don't think he actually cared that much about monsters/etc. For John and Dean, fighting monsters was apparently this deeply emotional, necessary thing, because they had this big loss (at the hands of a monster) hanging over their heads. But for Sam I don't think it was like that. I think he just didn't want to be left out.

The bonding didn't actually happen for Sam though, imo, because he couldn't find his way into John/Dean's little hunting clique of two, and because he and John just plain didn't work well together. ...

So I think for Sam, hunting was frustrating and alienating, so he was finally like "forget this!" and looked for his own path.

I think that John (and Dean) took that as a big rejection, actually. I think that's where a lot of the anger was coming from. But imo Sam was already feeling too alienated to even really register that.

Personally, where I can't get on board is with the idea that John was primarily worried about safety. His big complaint when Sam finally got back (in S1) was that Sam left when John and Dean "needed him." Then, when he was dying, he was telling Dean that maybe he'd have to KILL Sam! I dunno, I think that John cared deeply about Sam and Dean but he just didn't seem that safety conscious. I think he was WAY more worried about the boys being fuck ups than he was about them being safe.

Maybe he was on a bender? stuck in a hospital on a 5150? too depressed to manage dealing with his phone? in jail?

I dunno, something about John always says "alcoholic" to me, though, I can't help it. That's always my automatic assumption for why he acted the way he did, including his flaking out. Even though it's non-canon, so I try to brush it off.

Regardless, something about that man wasn't right.

IA that Sam was always left out of the bonding part of hunting--maybe because he started so long after the others, and did have a childhood without monsters till he was 8, maybe because the others still wanted (sort of) to keep him away from danger.  In any event, he would have seen John and Dean working together on things they were keeping secret from him, leaving him out from the very beginning.  Sam had the outsiders POV, not really buying in to the whole hunter mystique because he'd already had years of wanting to be/trying to be normal, without understanding why his family didn't want it.    

But I still believe that John's *original* intention (when they were kids) was to protect the boys and *not* have them hunt.   I still think it was Dean who pushed for a more active role, and always expected Sam to like it as much as he did.  And I think by the time Sam was old enough/knew enough to join them, John *did* want to have them all hunting together, whether to give him backup or so he could try to protect them.  But by the time Sam joined in, you're right, he was already feeling alienated and resentful, and started questioning and challenging everything.  (I wonder if that's why John kept them on the "need to know" basis that Sam kept complaining about--because he didn't feel like arguing with Sam?...which, of course, just led to more resentment and bitterness and more arguing--the never-ending cycle.)   

I'm not sure if they were angry at Sam's "rejection"--though, yeah, it definitely played a part; but I still think the major part was, as John said, because he was worried about Sam being on his own, especially if he'd rejected hunting so completely that they couldn't be sure he'd even take basic protection precautions (we didn't hear anything about Sam's roommates complaining about salt circles or protection sigils carved into his bedpost, the way Dean had at the boy's home, so maybe John was right about that?)  

Bottom line to me is:  John always was a control freak.  Was always convinced that he knew the best/*only* way to do things.  While I still believe his original motivations were to protect the boys, as they got older and more capable and John felt they could take care of themselves, he tended to treat them as soldiers rather than sons.  Hunting became a military operation, with him as the General, making all the plans and deploying his troops, and he wouldn't tolerate fuckups, insubordination or arguments.  Unfortunately, Sam was just like him--also convinced that he knew better than anyone, and was frustrated that John couldn't/wouldn't see that.  Which left Dean stuck in the middle, trying to keep peace between two would-be Alpha males.   This doesn't make any of them "bad," just...interesting And definitely fucked up family dynamics.

I think John shows all the signs of being an alcoholic, though (in my experience) the ones who honestly *need* control don't *like* things that make them feel out of control, like drugs and alcohol.  But, as my ex-brother-in-law (also an alcoholic) once told me, there is something called a "dry drunk"--someone who can go into rages/alcoholic behavior, without touching a drop.   They can be pretty damn scary.    

Sorry...another long and rambling post.  Is anybody else reading or should I stick to short and sweet comments?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I see Dean being attracted to Hunting (in priority order)

1) Bond with his father. John counted on Dean and this meant EVERYTHING to the attention starved kid with serious abandonment issues. 

2) It felt good to save people.  He could save them from pain and I suspect eased some of his own   If he hadn't had his loss and learned Hunting skills, these people would have suffered.

3) It justified his unusual and poverty plagued life. 'I'm a hero!' He said when being accused of being  a loser. I think when younger, Dean believed supporting his Superhero Dad was cool.  Then in his early teens, he was a little disillusioned with the lifestyle (Bad Boys).  I think he felt all the responsibility for Sam and none of the Hunting thrill yet.  THEN Dean kills his first monster and he 'had the bug' (Bloodlust). And he sees the nobility in the lifestyle. 

4)Shooting guns and killing monsters - 'perks' of the job (Skin). 

I think John would have kept up the obsessed Hunting even without Dean's enthusiasm.  I dont think he could have kept it up without adean's support. 

I'd give you three thumbs up for this if I could.  I have to either post faster or keep up with comments while I'm writing my long, complicated ones.  You've stated very neatly why Dean "embraced the hunting life," and only part of it was indoctrination (that is, going with what he was familiar with/what got him approval, instead of looking for something else to do.)

 

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I still come back to Dean being brainwashed/indoctrinated at such a young age with no ability to say no that became "supporting" John.  Before the age of say 12 or 13/14 how much choice did Dean really have other than doing what John wanted him to do and survive, literally?  Even if he had a thought to leave the life, he had Sam to look after.  Dean kind of never stood a chance to not become the "family business" guy.  Sam got off a little easier because of Dean sparing him the monster knowledge until Sam was what 8 or 9 when he was a bit older to process it and he had Dean there to help him be a "normal" kid.   

While I do believe that, under the circumstances,  Dean really didn't have a chance at any other way of life, I think he really *liked* hunting (remember his talk with Jo in Philadelphia when he said that he'd been started so young he hadn't had any choices, and Jo called bullshit and said that he loved it?)   

Without hunting, would he have become a doctor or lawyer, or even District Sales Manager (or whatever) as in It's a Terrible Life?  I doubt it.  Probably something else dangerous and life-saving, like a fireman or policeman.   

Bottom line is, no matter what the reasons why he started, Dean truly *enjoyed* hunting in the early seasons, at least, and got major satisfaction from it.  That's more than most people do from their everyday jobs.