S03.E07: I'm Coming Home To You

[Madding crowd]

The deal of Nashville is showing different artists at different points. Rayna and Juliette are the big stars doing the big concerts, Will and Scarlett are the up and comers, Deacon is coming out of retirement so to speak, Gunnar is trying to make it as a songwriter/singer, Zoey is a back up etc. They are all coming from different places with music being the common bond. I like this aspect of the show and don't compare it to any real life country stars.

I don't want see Rayna or Juliette playing at tiny clubs unless it's the Bluebird. It's a bit of a fantasy, but to me it works.

[LadyMustang65]

Maddie had a child-like view of her world at that moment. She now knows that is not true. Her mother is in daily contact with her; her father is there every day; Deacon is in frequent, if not daily, contact with her as well. So she knows that no one “left” her. She has had 2 instances where she made bad decisions, and there has been no dialog to suggest there have been other instances, so I think it’s a stretch to say that Maddie is acting out because Rayna is gone rather than Maddie is being a teenager testing her boundaries and making bad decisions. It’s part of the territory with teenagers, and she did it at least once that we saw when Rayna was still there every day.

As for Rayna’s business decisions, I think the problem is that we’re talking about two different things. If H65 were a vanity label for Rayna while still under the auspices of Edgehill, what you suggest would work just fine. It does not work fine for building name and label recognition for H65 as a serious studio ready to compete with the big guys. I have no sense that Rayna wants a vanity label for herself and a couple of small artists. My sense is that she wants H65 to be able to compete with the Edgehills of Nashville, and she’s doing what is necessary to make that happen.

Lastly, I disagree quite strongly about Maddie and Deacon. It is water under the bridge. It’s history; it cannot be changed. Rayna made the best decision she could under the circumstances, and given that Deacon’s first action after hearing news that upset him was to go on a bender after years of sobriety, it was clearly the right call. Rayna has explained why she did what she did. She does not need to apologize to anyone for that. She was a mother trying to do what was best for her child. She has owned that decision and taken responsibility for it. Their approval or forgiveness is not required. She has asked for their understanding, which seems to have been given. It’s time to move on. The only thing she maybe needs to apologize for is leaving the test results in her closet and not in a bank safety deposit box. But then we would not have had all the ‘drama.’

[Sutton]

So what your telling me that the only thing Rayna has to apologize for is leaving the test results in her closet and not in a bank deposit box. So let me understand this, if she had the results in the deposit box, so Maddie couldn't find them, she would never, never have told Deacon he has a 13 yrs old daughter. Tell me that isn't the most meanist thing a woman can do to the person she said to "I love you that's never not been true." I can give her a pass on the decision she made when Deacon was drinking but when he stayed sober for 3, 5, 13 yrs knowing how much he wanted a family with her mean isn't harsh enough. They have always been best friends, honest with each other, even when she was married to Teddy (when she was married to Teddy she use to dream of Deacon making love to her) but finding out you have a daughter 13 yrs old and the person you trusted the most lied to you all those years, people I've talked to said they would have fallen off the wagon with that news.

 

At this point in the series I will move away from Deacon and Rayna being the end game. I would like this series to have Deacon find someone who truly loves him, he moves on, gets married and his wife gets pregnant. Rayna can have LW with all his commerical advertisements she can stand but as we see she will never love anyone as much as she loves Deacon Claybourne. LW will be the new Teddy, someone has written the only difference LW sings.

 

We will have to wait to see what exactly she said to the Rolling Stones Reporter to make things with LW crash big time.

[madam magpie]

Maddie had a child-like view of her world at that moment. She now knows that is not true. Her mother is in daily contact with her; her father is there every day; Deacon is in frequent, if not daily, contact with her as well. So she knows that no one “left” her.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting this. It hasn't been portrayed on the show. Teddy is there, yes, but he's not Maddie was talking about. I don't remember seeing much contact between Maddie and Deacon, except when he came after the party. Her mother skyped with her once that we saw, flew her in once for 24 hours (and half ditched her to film a commercial), and flew home once for 24 hours (and half ditched her for a Rolling Stone reporter). The times that Rayna has really sat down and talked to Maddie have been about that nasty magazine article calling Maddie ugly and every time Maddie does something wrong. Most of the attention Maddie gets from her mother (and Deacon that we've seen) these days is for acting out. So if what Maddie wants is attention from her mother and Deacon, which seems to me like she obviously does given her reaction to Rayna's and Deacon's tours, it makes sense that she would continue to act out. Teenagers test boundaries, yes, and maybe I've only ever known "good" teens. But in my experience, they don't usually throw unauthorized parties, make out with their soon-to-be stepbrothers, and ditch their little sisters in a house full of drunks. I certianly didn't do any of that, and I was once a teenage girl. Maddie can't really go full-on Skins here because it's network TV, but I don't see her behavior as normal.

 

Lastly, I disagree quite strongly about Maddie and Deacon. It is water under the bridge. It’s history; it cannot be changed.

 

The fact that it can't be changed doesn't mean the effects of it are over. Rayna's decision continues to affect almost every action for Deacon, Maddie, and herself. It's not resolved by a long shot. Plenty of unhealthy people pretend those kinds of things don't matter in real life, and maybe that's what's going on here. But I have no interest in a story like that. It does sometimes happen in life that people betray the ones they love. We all find ourselves in circumstances that are scary or feel like emergencies or we just make mistakes, and we do our best at the time. But when your best causes massive upheaval and deep hurt for the people you claim to love, I think it's your responsibility to own that and work to remedy it. Deacon was Rayna's closest friend and musical partner the entire time Maddie was growing up. They'd been a serious couple for years before that. There's an absolute assumption of trust there, but Rayna looked at him every day and lied about the most important thing that had ever happened to them. That's a huge betrayal, and even if we all understand why she did what she did (and I absolutely do), Rayna needs to make it right. But she hasn't even said she's sorry for hurting him so badly. It's the same with Maddie. Rayna lied to this kid every day of her life, even as the child trusted her implicitly...so honest and loyal to her mother that she sold Teddy out and told Rayna about Peggy when she found out he was cheating. Understanding that Rayna was scared and in a horrible situation that she saw no way out of, even forgiving and accepting her choices because of that, doesn't mean the hurt it caused Deacon and Maddie just goes away. They're both still suffering because of what Rayna did, and if she loves them, she needs to step up and help them. Not owning that betrayal is a childish, immature way to look at it. I want Rayna to grow up.

Edited November 19, 2014 by madam magpie

[BBDi]

The deal of Nashville is showing different artists at different points. Rayna and Juliette are the big stars doing the big concerts, Will and Scarlett are the up and comers, Deacon is coming out of retirement so to speak, Gunnar is trying to make it as a songwriter/singer, Zoey is a back up etc. They are all coming from different places with music being the common bond. I like this aspect of the show and don't compare it to any real life country stars.

 

One of the things I really liked about the show at the outset is the way it showed these different people at different places in their lives, having different experiences and achieving different levels of success. Even someone who is at the top (Rayna) has to think about what she's willing to do to stay there, or what else is out there for her. Someone like Juliette who's on her way up and very nearly at the top (in Season 1, anyway) but still has to worry about who's coming up behind her. Someone like Avery or Scarlett who gets an early taste of success and can't handle it. Someone like Will who thinks he can make it to the top except for this one little thing...And so forth.

 

The show has shown that it can do this angle well, and sometimes it still does. But then it seems like the writers forget where the characters have been and just go off on some crazy tangent (I think this is what bugs me about a lot of the Rayna stuff), or introduce new characters willy-nilly. It also drives me crazy because I suspect that there are a lot of real-life stories from people in the industry and maybe even especially those who didn't "make it" that are more interesting than what they are showing. I bet there is a whole well out there they are not drawing from--all they would have to do is get a bunch of artists and would-be artists in the room, add some liquor, and they'd hear 5 seasons' worth of stories.

 

I agree with one of the posters above (and I think a lot of others share this view) that focusing more on Rayna's efforts to build up H65 would have been a good thing. But it seems like the writers only focus on it a bit, then drop it like a dog who sees a rabbit or a gnat with a teeny-tiny attention span. It is so frustrating!

Edited November 19, 2014 by BBDi

[LadyMustang65]

Sutton - I never said she would not have ever told them.  I believe she would have at a time when Maddie was old enough to handle hearing the news.  Until then, yes, she had to keep it a secret.  Deacon blabbed about proposing to her the first time Maddie got upset with him.  Whose to say he wouldn't have blabbed to Maddie about being her father if Rayna had told him earlier?  Or tried to go for joint custody or something?  And what if she had told them and Deacon fell off the wagon again and hurt Maddie?  It's one thing if "Uncle Deacon" has a problem; it's quite another to have your father be that person.  And when would you have had her tell them?  When Maddie was 2? 6? 10?  When exactly is the right time to tell a young child something like that?  As Shakespeare said, "Oh what a tangled web we weave."  Once Rayna committed to a decision, she needed to stick with that decision until she felt the time was right and Maddie was old enough to understand and accept the news.  I also believe that had Rayna been the one to sit down with Deacon and tell him what happened, he would not have reacted as he did and gone on a bender.  You may think what she did was mean, but I don't.  She was a mother trying to protect her child.  I think she made the right decision based on what she knew at the time, and I don't believe she has to apologize to anyone for that.  She has told them she was sorry they were hurt, and she has tried to make amends by making sure they get to know each other now.  She really shouldn't be required to have to grovel and beg. 

 

Magpie - it's been established via dialog that Rayna talks to her children every single day when she's away - often via Skype so that they can see each other as well as hear.  We have also seen tail-end of conversations that Deacon was having with Maddie, so he does keep in contact with her.  I doubt it's every day as Rayna does, but he's not gone for months without any contact with her.  And Maddie's behavior, while not exactly 'normal,' is not abnormal either.  Just read the news, and you'll find tons of stories of teens having unsupervised parties with alcohol and drugs.  Maddie didn't exactly "throw" the party either.  All she did was invite a few kids back to the house.  Her big mistake was closeting herself away with Colt so that she was largely unaware of what was happening in the rest of the house.  Having a small party get out of hand happens all the time, too.  I don't see Maddie as anything other than a kid who is not always handling the changes in her life well.  But she also has plenty of resources to turn to.  Making a couple of bad decisions doesn't make her a wild child acting out to get attention.  At least not in my book.

 

I've already addressed Rayna above, and I stand by that.  I think she is trying to help them deal with the consequences of her decision, but I don't think she needs to grovel and beg forgiveness or run around in sackcloth and ashes wailing, which is what people seem to want.  She did what she thought she had to do then.  Just like she did what she thought she had to do now (talk about Deacon) in order to protect Maddie.  

[Sutton]

 

One of the things I really liked about this show at the outset is the way it showed these different people at different places in their lives, having different experiences and achieving different levels of success. Even someone who's at the top (Rayna) has to think about what she's willing to do to stay there, or what else is out there for her.

Amen to that....Rayna and Deacon had a story, it was told in season 1, too bad they took what could have been a very romantic story and chopped it up so bad that putting it back together, the writers are trying now to do, how can we make this right.

 

The show has shown that it can do this angle well, and sometimes it still does. But then it seems like the writers forget where the characters have been and just go off on some crazy tangent.

I bet there is a whole well out there they are not drawing from --  all they would have to do is get a bunch of artists and would-be artists in a room, add some liquor, and they'd have 5 season' worth of stories.

 

Rayna and Deacon could be the extra part, them being together as a couple, Rayna running Highway 65 getting new talent and Deacon running the music writing and recording end of the business. (Dreaming again)

[madam magpie]

but I don't think she needs to grovel and beg forgiveness or run around in sackcloth and ashes wailing, which is what people seem to want.

 

Why is it always extremes? How is apologizing for something hurtful that you did to your best friend and child the same as groveling, begging forgiveness, etc.? I think the writers probably see this in extremes as well, which is why they won't let Rayna take any ownership of her behavior. But it's coming across as cold to a lot of people.

 

If the dialogue has had Rayna talking to her kids daily, I'll have to take your word for it. I'd go back and rewatch to see, but this show is so bad most of the time that I don't want to.

[LadyMustang65]

Rayna has apologized that they were hurt, and it doesn't seem to matter to people, which is why I land on extremes.  I don't know what people want of her if not to grovel and beg.  She has not apologized for the decision she made, but she did say she was sorry they were hurt. 

 

I wish I could remember which episode it was, but in one of the episodes this season, Rayna mentions that she talks to her kids every day.

Edited November 19, 2014 by LadyMustang65

[madam magpie]

Actually, I think she hasn't. She told Maddie she was sorry her choices had affected Maddie's life this way and that she was sorry Maddie felt like her mother was a liar and her father was a drunk. As far as I remember, she's never apologized to Deacon for anything at all. In every conversation they've had about it, she's defended herself or tried to explain. The old "I'm sorry if you were hurt by this totally legit thing I did" apology is a cop-out, both in fiction and in real life. It basically says, "I was right, you were wrong, and I'm sorry you don't see that." "I'm sorry I betrayed your trust in me, that was a really hurtful thing to do" is a completely different ball of wax. My issue with Rayna is that the writers seem to have her feeling the former when I think she needs to feel and say the latter. It's not that Rayna was horribly wrong to keep Maddie from Deacon or that it makes her a shitty mom or a bad person. It's that Rayna betrayed and deeply hurt two people who loved and trusted her implicitly. That's a big deal, and to have your main character come back from that, she needs to acknowledge it fully. At this point, if I were Deacon or Maddie, I would never trust Rayna again.

Edited November 19, 2014 by madam magpie

[Sutton]

When Rayna went up to the cabin to thank Deacon for going on the TV morning show GMA he said straight to her face, if Maddie hadn't found the paternity papers you would never have told me she was may daughter. Rayna's response "you don't know that." Down deep in his heart he did know exactly that, she wouldn't have told him about Maddie, untill Maddie needed a transfusion and Deacon was the perfect match. What we are all saying (at least me) Rayna never, never said she was sorry for starting a sexual relationship with Deacon knowing she wasn't going to tell him he has a daughter. When you see them together before the accident and he talks about a family they could have had together you could see the guilt on her face that it shows in every scene. Her and Teddy were two of a kind, sometimes I think Rayna is more like Lamar a manipulator and a liar.

 

I've said it before, why a series would go down this road of making Rayna so unrecognizable that fans, viewers dislike, hate her from the character they feel in love with in season 1. I don't understand. I don't know if I can ever like or trust Rayna again because there will always be that doubt in my mind.

[Clemgo3165]

I agree with you Madam. I fully understand Rayna's actions initially, Deacon was still drinking and was in no shape to be a father to his daughter. But after 3 years of consistent sobriety? That's the time to tell him and see how he responds, offer to let him spend time with his child at their house, eventually moving to a full-out father/daughter relationship if it works out. Maddie was young and the impact wouldn't have been nearly as great at that point as it is now. She'd have simply grown up knowing that she has two Dads, and Deacon would have at least had the opportunity to have some time with his girl while she was still little.

 

The biggest mistake on Rayna's part for me is the fact that she wasn't even planning to come clean once they got back together in Season 1. She's professed her love and devotion, but doesn't love him enough to tell him the truth. He may have had the same reaction had he heard it from her, but now we'll never know. Hearing it from Maddie was the worst case scenario for both of them and she owes them both that apology.

[madam magpie]

The biggest mistake on Rayna's part for me is the fact that she wasn't even planning to come clean once they got back together in Season 1. She's professed her love and devotion, but doesn't love him enough to tell him the truth.

 

For me, this is where Rayna loses her high ground completely. I can see not telling him when he was drunk. I can see how hard it would have been to tell him while she and Teddy were married. I don't understand how she got through the day like that, but I get it; she was in it then, and to get out of it was unimaginable. But to go back to Deacon, start sleeping with him again, tell him she loved him, and begin to plan a life together while still keeping their child a secret from him is just like...WHAT? That's not to say that I don't think Rayna could and should be forgiven for even that. But it's such a huge betrayal of trust. I used to be of the mind that she planned to tell him. She seemed really tormented by it at that point, and I actually wish, for the sake of the story, that she'd been the one to do it. It would have required a lot of bravery on Rayna's part and would have been a compelling and dramatic turn. But alas, the writers choose to go the soap opera route instead. Whatever.

 

Another issue for me is that I don't believe someone in Rayna's situation wouldn't still be completely torn up about this. I just don't buy her "it's in the past" approach at all. This is a woman who was in love with Deacon, supposedly, for two decades. She spent thousands of dollars trying to get him sober, kept him close to her even after she married someone else, admitted to him and the audience how much she loved him even while she was still married, and then went right back to him before the ink was even on her divorce papers. Then they were blissfully happy for five minutes, during which time she seemed wracked with guilt about Maddie, and then when that came out, they got into a car wreck and nearly died. And what I'm supposed to believe now, a year-ish later, is that she's over it and just trying to move on?? I don't. That wouldn't be the case for any feeling, emotional human being. I'll only be happy with the resolution of this story if Rayna completely falls apart to Deacon at some point and lets all of the guilt and sadness and regret come pouring out of her. It's not really about Deacon at this point; it's about Rayna. This guy was her best friend, her musical partner, the great love her life, her child's father, her fiance, her confidante, and she's just like...meh, yeah, time to move on. I know everyone trashes on Deacon for being so sad, and it is a downer, but at least I believe that. He's acting like a normal human being. Rayna, as we've been saying for awhile, is acting like a soulless pod person.

[LadyMustang65]

And that's what makes horse races, as they say.  I like Rayna just fine.  I have no problem with how Rayna has handled things, and I don't see any reason for someone not to trust her.  She was in a bad situation, and she did the best she could with it.  She didn't tell Deacon he couldn't come to the house or be around Maddie.  Sure, he was "Uncle Deacon," but he got to watch her grow up and develop a relationship with her.  Maddie and Daphne both clearly love him, and he clearly loved them back even without knowing he was Maddie's father.  We have no idea what Maddie was like when she was younger or whether she could have handled having 'two dads.'  And there was Teddy to consider as well.  This wasn't solely Rayna's decision, and Teddy would have had to agree to that arrangement.  It's not at all cut-and-dried; it was a complex, convoluted situation with a whole bunch of people to consider besides just Maddie and Deacon.  I'm okay with how they've handled it.  I may not personally agree with all the decisions she's made, but I do understand why she made them, and I can respect her decisions.  Your mileage, as they say, may vary . . . and clearly does for some.  :)

[Clemgo3165]

 

It's not at all cut-and-dried; it was a complex, convoluted situation with a whole bunch of people to consider besides just Maddie and Deacon.

 

But given that Maddie and Deacon were the one's with the most to gain/lose out of this bargain, they should have had priority consideration. Instead it was Teddy and Rayna who came first here. Teddy because he didn't want anyone knowing Maddie wasn't his, and Rayna? I know why initially, but can't for the life of me understand why the lie had to continue as long as it did. Being someone's "Uncle Deacon" is far different from being their father.

[madam magpie]

And Rayna, Clemgo. I mean...I'm completely fed up with her at this point, but Rayna was the one, initially, who had the most to gain or lose. I do think the show and audience lose sight of that a lot, especially since she's been so awful now for so long. But at the beginning, really, it would have just been Rayna, all by herself and terrified.

[LadyMustang65]

Clemgo - you seem to assume that because Rayna didn't tell them, she didn't give them priority consideration.  I think she gave Maddie the most consideration of all.  It's easy to say that after Deacon had been sober for a few years, she should have told him.  But given his history, why should she believe this time was going to be any different?  He stayed sober longer than he usually did, but she had no way of knowing if/when he'd be off again.  And she had a young daughter to consider.  How would it have been for Maddie if Deacon had gotten roaring drunk while Maddie was with him?  Not only would Maddie be terrified, but she'd be in danger as well.  It's easy to say in hindsight that he was sober for 13 years, but why should Rayna really believe that this time was going to be different?  Especially given that we saw how little it took to send him back to drinking.  I don't mean to downplay the hurt and anger he felt, but after 13 years of sobriety, one would think it would have taken a bit more than about 15 seconds for him to start drinking again.  That he would have learned some coping skills in that time and would have reached out to someone instead of grabbing the nearest bottle.  I think Rayna was thinking of Maddie first and foremost.  By the time she had reached a point where she might have begun to have real hope that Deacon had changed, Maddie was older but not old enough to really understand. And by then there was also Daphne to consider, who was also affected by the revelation.  I believe that Deacon knows that Rayna was thinking of what was best for her kids.  And I think on some level Maddie also understands that.  Now that it's out in the open, Rayna is not standing in the way of those two getting to know each other in this new relationship.  Neither is Teddy.  They're all doing the mature thing and moving on with their lives.  There is nothing to be gained by anyone in holding onto any hurt they may feel.  It doesn't mean they won't still feel hurt from time to time or throw it in Rayna's face sometime when they're angry with her.  But they are dealing with what is and not condemning because of what 'might' have been if Rayna had had a crystal ball and could know how things would turn out.

[pattycat]

Others have said, very well, how I feel about the Maddie lie.

I like Rayna, I can sympathize with her, to some extent, but, The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions, and all that!

No matter how you spin it,a lie is a lie. If they had told Maddie, when she was 18, or 21, would it have been easier to understand? I think they would have had a young woman who incredibly betrayed, not just for herself, but for the Man who had lost any chance of being her Father, as she grew up.

Rayna and teddy, always had the option of putting the choice in Deacon's lap. If they felt they couldn't tell him when Maddie was born, after a couple of years of sobriety, how about sitting down with him, telling him the truth, and why they hadn't told him immediately. Tell him he had the right to be in Maddie's life, but, only if he was clean and sober, and, if they ever found that was not the case, they would do anything it took to keep him out of her life, including, asking for his parental rights to be revoked.

If he couldn't stay sober, then keeping him away from the child would be responsible and understandable. They decided instead, he didn't deserve the chance.

He was sober, he was part of Rayna's, life on a daily basis. She eventually went back to him as his lover. Still the lie

It can't be undone and they do all need to move forward. It still doesn't make it easy to swallow.

[Sutton]

THANKS Pattycat for your opinion, love the phase "The Road to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions" "No matter how you spin it, a lie, is still a lie." Both Rayna and Teddy took away Deacon's decision/rights to be a father to his daughter and that is just not acceptable. This has been a thorn in my side ever since Teddy said to Rayna in Season 1, we both agreed/promised that Deacon would never know that Maddie is his. I'm Maddies father and don't you forget it. He said that when Rayna started dating Deacon again and Teddy was livid because his worry was that Rayna might not be able to keep the secret because of her deep love and feelings for Deacon and the guilt she was feeling that Deacon didn't know Maddie was his.

[LadyMustang65]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I think what Pattycat suggested would have been horrific.  Tell Maddie that Deacon is her father, let them develop that kind of a relationship, and then potentially yank it away from her if Deacon can't stay sober?  That would have been far more damaging and hurtful to Maddie, imho, than doing what they did.  And, as I said before, what if they found out Deacon couldn't stay sober while he was with Maddie?  Deacon was a mean drunk, and Maddie would have been in real danger.  We are looking at the situation in hindsight, which as we know is 20/20, and saying Rayna made the wrong decision.  Rayna was working off what she knew and her history with Deacon and trying to do what was best for Maddie and her family.  I'm not going to say that Rayna was wrong because she didn't have a crystal ball and couldn't know what was going to happen.  But clearly I am not going to change anyone's mind if I haven't already, and just as clearly no one has made a good enough argument to change my mind.  So we've probably bored the list long enough.  Peace!  :)  I am still a fan of Rayna and am looking forward to (hopefully) watching H65 grow and become a player.  And I hope Tandy comes back; I thought she and Rayna made a good team. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by LadyMustang65

[BBDi]

I don't want to jump into the good-parent vs bad-parent fray. But it might have been possible for Rayna to tell Deacon about Maddie and then let them have some type of relationship while raising Maddie in a stable home environment provided by her and Teddy--I mean, it didn't have to be a disaster. In real life there are tons of people who were raised by a non-biological parent because their substance abusing biological parent was uninvolved or unreliable. And those kids hopefully learn to make peace with having a substance abusing or otherwise flawed person in their lives but at somewhat of a remove.

 

I don't think Rayna had the right to keep Deacon in the dark about Maddie but I imagine she didn't foresee that once she started down that road it would be hard to go back.The problem is that if Rayna did tell Deacon, then she might then have had to go to court to keep Deacon from trying to get custody or joint custody of Maddie, or otherwise try to keep him out of Maddie's life if she felt he was unstable or his presence was endangering Maddie in some way. And that would have been messy. And Rayna doesn't like mess. As much as she loved/loves Deacon, he's brought messiness, drama, and chaos into her life. She thought she was keeping that away from Maddie's life, too.

[madam magpie]

I actually don't think Rayna herself would have feared a custody battle with Deacon. She knows him well enough to know that he'd never put her through something like that; he loves her to much and it's not his style. If there's one thing I think Rayna has never doubted it's that Deacon loves her. Teddy might fave feared it, though. I think that Rayna really just didn't know what to do. She obviously felt guilty about it, but as the years went on, the lie just got bigger and bigger and probably felt like it was swallowing her. That's not true, of course. Usually in a situation like that, the truth actually will set you free in the end. But that can be impossible to see when you're in it.

I think Rayna wanted her baby to grow up in the stable, loving home she never had. She's been adamant about that. She felt Teddy could give Maddie that (and he did). I also think she was afraid Deacon would never forgive her and she'd lose him, that Teddy would leave her, and that Maddie would hate her if she told. All legit fears. I don't think it was "right" for Rayna to keep lying to Deacon while Maddie was growing up, but I get that she was paralyzed by fear and can forgive her for that.

That said, of course Maddie could have grown up with two dads. It happens all the time. It would have been hard to explain the drinking to Maddie and hard if Deacon had fallen off the wagon. But I'm a firm believer in the truth.

[shron17]

I don't want to jump into the good-parent vs bad-parent fray. But it might have been possible for Rayna to tell Deacon about Maddie and then let them have some type of relationship while raising Maddie in a stable home environment provided by her and Teddy--I mean, it didn't have to be a disaster.

 

I really don't want to jump in either, but wanted to point out the huge risk Rayna would have been taking with Maddie's future.  What do you imagine the odds are that Rayna could have still provided a stable and loving home environment for her if she told Deacon--50/50, 70/30?  Two things that lower the odds of that even further, in my opinion, are: 1) Deacon's father and his own childhood. This kind of situation DOES get passed down from generation to generation and increases the likelihood of a rough transition to fatherhood; and 2) Rayna's weakness for taking him back time after time.  When you have a man who promises to be a good father to your baby but wants to be her only father, do you accept his offer or take a gamble that it will all work out somehow if you tell the truth?  I'm glad Rayna did what she did and in her situation would have done the same thing.  

 

I don't think Rayna had the right to keep Deacon in the dark about Maddie but I imagine she didn't foresee that once she started down that road it would be hard to go back.

 

The same thing applies to going down the other road as well.  This isn't something you can ever "untell" once it's been told.  The plan to tell Deacon he couldn't be in Maddie's life unless he stayed sober would probably work right up until the first time he got drunk.  Can he be trusted to abide by the rules, or even a court order, when he's under the influence?  Very, very doubtful.

 

I think Rayna wanted her baby to grow up in the stable, loving home she never had.

 

She did, and I think the fact that Maddie had that for 13 years does now and will continue to benefit her far more than the lie hurt her.  Telling Deacon would bring all sorts of risks into her life at a younger age--chaos, danger, disappointment, divorce, etc. etc.  Your relationship with your father has an enormous affect on your love life as an adult and I think the one Maddie had with Teddy will serve her far better than the turmoil that could have been present in her life with both Teddy and Deacon trying to be her father.  I think Rayna and Teddy did these things to protect Maddie, and that both Maddie and Deacon are at least starting to understand this.  I know others don't agree and am fine with agreeing to disagree.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just felt the need to put in my $.02 worth.  

Edited November 20, 2014 by shron17

[madam magpie]

I really don't want to jump in either, but wanted to point out the huge risk Rayna would have been taking with Maddie's future.  What do you imagine the odds are that Rayna could have still provided a stable and loving home environment for her if she told Deacon--50/50, 70/30?  Two things that lower the odds of that even further, in my opinion, are: 1) Deacon's father and his own childhood. This kind of situation DOES get passed down from generation to generation and increases the likelihood of a rough transition to fatherhood; and 2) Rayna's weakness for taking him back time after time.  When you have a man who promises to be a good father to your baby but wants to be her only father, do you accept his offer or take a gamble that it will all work out somehow if you tell the truth?  I'm glad Rayna did what she did and in her situation would have done the same thing.

 

 

So basically what you're saying is that men who are alcoholics or other addicts who come from lousy families don't have any right to raise their children? Mothers are fully in control and fathers should have no say? I mean...I'm rabidly pro-choice and often have people come at me for my firm belief that men and fetuses should have no legal right to a woman's decision about abortion, so I only marginally disagree with you. But I'd hope that you're also equally rabidly pro-choice and against enforced child support. Otherwise, that's just hypocrisy. Men shouldn't be forced to bow to women's will simply because women are the ones who have the babies unless you're willing to force women to take on all the responsibility of an unplanned pregnancy.

 

I feel pretty sure that I wouldn't have done the same thing in Rayna's shoes because I do believe in telling the truth and because I believe that what needs to be legal isn't necessarily what "moral" people should choose. But I don't think I'd have just told Deacon and brought him home either. Facing a pregnancy would absolutely have changed Rayna; it should have, and she was right to shift her priorities as a result. But I think I'd have raised the baby on my own and tried to see what happened, especially since only a month or two before, my plan had been to marry the man.

[shron17]

So basically what you're saying is that men who are alcoholics or other addicts who come from lousy families don't have any right to raise their children?

 

Of course not!  I think you missed the part where I said "in her situation."

[madam magpie]

I didn't miss it, but it sounded like you were saying you'd have done the same thing. How is her situation different from any relationship with an addict? To me, it looks painfully common. Any woman in love with and pregnant (unplanned) by an addict would be in a similar situation. And she was even slightly better off than many; at least Deacon was willing to go to rehab.

Edited November 20, 2014 by madam magpie

[shron17]

Every situation is different.  I've stated my opinion about a story line on a TV show, and my intention was not to pass a very generalized and biased judgement on behalf of all women pregnant by an addict.  

[shron17]

Mothers are fully in control and fathers should have no say? I mean...I'm rabidly pro-choice and often have people come at me for my firm belief that men and fetuses should have no legal right to a woman's decision about abortion, so I only marginally disagree with you. But I'd hope that you're also equally rabidly pro-choice and against enforced child support. Otherwise, that's just hypocrisy. Men shouldn't be forced to bow to women's will simply because women are the ones who have the babies unless you're willing to force women to take on all the responsibility of an unplanned pregnancy.

 

You put a lot of words in my mouth here.  I only said Rayna did what she did in order to protect her baby and that I agree and would have done the same in her situation.  For me, it's not a social issue but a personal one.  I believe everyone has an obligation and a right to protect their baby in the way they think is best, since they know the most about themselves and the other people involved.  Many mothers would do the same in that situation; others may make honesty, morality, selfishness, etc. a higher priority than their baby's safety and happiness.  But I strongly disagree it's condoning "men being forced to bow to women's will because they have the babies."  From the flashbacks it seems clear the pregnancy happened at least in part because Deacon broke promises he made after rehab concerning both their relationship and his behavior, and for all those 13 years never once guessed Maddie could be his.  So no, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel a stronger obligation to him than to my baby.

 

I feel pretty sure that I wouldn't have done the same thing in Rayna's shoes because I do believe in telling the truth and because I believe that what needs to be legal isn't necessarily what "moral" people should choose. But I don't think I'd have just told Deacon and brought him home either.

 

But having the baby on her own wouldn't be that different from telling Deacon the baby was his.  Their lives have been so entangled that getting married and having the baby with someone else was the only way to separate both Rayna and Maddie from Deacon.  Otherwise when he got drunk he would have gone to scream at Rayna for keeping him from his child, not Teddy.  I know some think finding out about the baby would have inspired Deacon to stay sober, but the chance that it would have put more stress on him and made  it even harder is just as great.  In fact, even though Deacon said he got sober for Rayna and many of the details are unclear, the relief he must have felt from having to try so hard not to lose her could have been a big factor in his recovery. And despite 13 or so years of sobriety, Deacon hasn't exactly been a poster child for healthy family relationships either.     

Edited November 21, 2014 by shron17

[madam magpie]

So you feel confident predicting the bad things Deacon would have done if he'd known about the baby, but won't even really entertain the notion that he might have still cleaned himself up?

Here's the thing: You basically are saying that Deacon had no rights to their baby, no right to any say, no right to even know about the child, that Rayna and Deacon's relationship was so worthless and unimportant that he had no assumption of trust with her, and that she can't reasonably be expected to tell him the truth. Rayna's decision to lie to him about Maddie for years was completely justified and right, and she owes neither of them anything for doing it. But it's just Deacon that applies to? Other men deserve more consideration in the same situation? Other addicts deserve more consideration? Yes, every situation is different and women have the right to protect their babies. So what? That makes them above reproach? They suddenly don't make any mistakes because they're mothers...or women? If you say that Rayna is solely responsible for getting pregnant, then I see how she's solely responsible for the decisions that go along with it. (I don't agree with that, but it makes sense.) But to say that she and Deacon got her pregnant together and then the hell with him because he's an addict, that's hypocrisy. Or maybe fear, which I get but which doesn't excuse anyone's bad behavior.

I've known a lot of addicts: loved them, lived with them, depended on them. It's very hard and disappointing and can be scary. But simply being an addict doesn't mean you should inherently lose all rights to your child, and the American legal system agrees with me. If Deacon took Rayna to court, she would lose. I get that you think it's OK to lie to the people we love and who love and trust us, but I absolutely do not. That doesn't mean it's unforgivable or makes someone a bad person or a lousy parent, but it's not just OK with me. And there are consequences to doing something like that. I want Rayna to face them, not get a pass because Deacon was a drunk. Like I've said many times, at this point it's about Rayna, not Deacon. He's long owned and owned up to what he did back then, and if she were a real person, it would be bad for Rayna never to really face the truth of what she did because she clearly has a conscience. Betraying your best friend and kid would eat at the conscience of most people and would make it very hard to set up a genuinely happy, fulfilled life going forward. No one seems "over it" to me. They all still seem defined by this choice Rayna made years ago. And I blame the writers for the confusion and for trying to sell me one thing while showing me something else. I also blame them for turning a great character like Rayna into a stooge, but this is the network of Scandal so I probably should have expected that.

[madam magpie]

As for why Deacon was able to clean himself up, it's hard to say. Sometimes sobriety sticks and sometimes it doesn't. But I have wondered if losing Rayna is actually what shocked him straight. Losing gigs didn't matter more to him than drinking. Neither did losing his life or the respect of the music community. But losing her seems to. What that means is that even if she'd raised their baby herself but refused to be with him while he was drinking, the result may have been similar. Maybe Rayna didn't have the fortitude for that. Maybe she didn't have all the work and therapy in her to make that situation work. But that last bit is what's wrong with Rayna, not what's wrong with Deacon.

[LadyMustang65]

I really don't understand what "consequences" you think Rayna should face.  Both Deacon and Maddie were angry and upset with her.  It has altered her relationships with both of them.  Those are the consequences of her decision.  She has said she was sorry they were hurt, but she clearly believes did the best she could, so why should she apologize for that?  She has owned the decision, she has recognized the results of her decision, but she made the best decision she could under  the circumstances, and I don't see why she should have to apologize for that.  Rayna can feel guilt over the decision she made and still believe it was the best decision she could have made, and she should not have to apologize for putting her child's welfare first.  Apologize for the hurt it has caused - yes.  And she did.  But apologize for making it in the first place?  I disagree. 

[madam magpie]

I really don't understand what "consequences" you think Rayna should face.  Both Deacon and Maddie were angry and upset with her.  It has altered her relationships with both of them.  Those are the consequences of her decision.  She has said she was sorry they were hurt, but she clearly believes did the best she could, so why should she apologize for that?

 

Those are the consequences, yes. I don't believe she's faced them at all. Deacon argued with her once about it at the cabin, she shot him down in spectacular fashion (in a great scene where it actually sounded like they might finally fully address this issue, but alas, that was dropped), and he forgave her, seemingly overnight. Then he treated her like they were friends again, professed his undying love, and asked her to marry him. (Oh and in the meantime apologized to her for blaming her for Scarlett's breakdown and shared a sad look with her about how he'd never gotten to see Maddie as a newborn. For her part, Rayna said nothing.) Maddie continues to make Rayna pay, and I say, good for Maddie. But Rayna rarely actually addresses any of the real issues with Maddie. She talks around them, scolds, hires nannies, gives Deacon crap, etc.

 

She's apologized to no one for what she really did, which is betray them both. Rayna did much, much more than just hurt Deacon and Maddie, yet she behaves as though she stands on 100% firm ethical footing. I get that you also think she stands there. I don't. I also don't believe that just because someone does something hurtful or even maybe unethical it automatically means she didn't make the best decision she could at the time. I'm not arguing that Rayna did or didn't make the best decision she could at the time. She did her best, she had to make a choice on the fly, she was both right and wrong, and she both failed and succeeded in what she wanted to do. That's a given and that's just life. But none of that means that the results of her choices are just swept away...FOR RAYNA. The guilt should be tormenting her, and it looked like it did for awhile back in season one, not because she sucks as a human being, but because she doesn't. RAYNA needs to face what she really did, which was lie to her best friend/lover/fiance/creative partner/most trusted confidante and child for more than a decade, drastically alter their relationship, and then begin a new romantic relationship with said best friend/lover/etc. and continue to lie. She needs to apologize for that and then let it go. Right now, what she's doing is continue to hide from it. She's hiding behind Luke and this BS relationship of fake equality, she's hiding behind her new business, and she's hiding behind the self-righteousness that Deacon gave her when he told her she'd been right. Yes, it makes total sense for Deacon to feel that way; he adores Rayna and knows how scary and messed up the situation she was in was. I have no trouble believing he'd forgive her on the spot, even if the result continues to hurt him. It doesn't make sense for RAYNA to feel that way because she's not actually ever admitted what the full consequences of her choices really were. That's how conscience works. What it all comes down to really is a writing issue; the writers on this show demonstrate time and again that they have no idea how real people behave (Micah, for example). They also have a tendancy to destroy characters and then try to build them up again, as though hoping we'll forget what those people did (hello, Teddy). So if this is who they want Rayna to be now, OK. But I certainly don't like or admire her as a result. And she's going to have to crash and burn pretty hard for me to forget all the crap she's pulled over the last season and a half since her big secret was revealed.

Edited November 21, 2014 by madam magpie

[Madding crowd]

I don't agree that Rayna or anyone should be tormented or begging for forgiveness their entire life for choosing to make their unborn child a priority. I like Deacon but I think the relationship he has with Maddie now is because he is finally in a good place to have one. Deacons torment is because he still wants to be with Rayna.

Some of us like Rayna and have a different point of view. IMO, no one should have to pay for making personal decisions that helped their child have a loving, secure life.

[LadyMustang65]

Well, again we'll have to agree to disagree.  Because no way do I think that Rayna "betrayed" either Maddie or Deacon.  Rayna does not need to "pay" for doing what she thought was best for Maddie.  I have much respect for Deacon for understanding why Rayna did what she did and respecting her right to make that choice.  He forgave her, which is what grown-ups do.  There is nothing to be gained by trying to make Rayna "pay" other than perhaps to make themselves feel temporarily better, but that's all it would be.  Eventually if they have any kind of a soul, they'll feel guilty themselves for acting that way.  It's over; it's done.  Nothing can change it, so you move past it.  Deacon has and good for him.  Maddie hasn't, but she's still a kid, and I'll cut her some slack for that, but I don't like her much for it. 

[shron17]

So you feel confident predicting the bad things Deacon would have done if he'd known about the baby, but won't even really entertain the notion that he might have still cleaned himself up?

 

 

No, but I do feel confident that Rayna made the best decision she could for Maddie at that time.  She chose not to gamble on Maddie's future with a safer choice and I agree that she doesn't need to apologize to anyone for her choices.  The difference here is that you're looking at it from Deacon's point of view only, while Rayna and Teddy and even Deacon are basing their opinion in terms of what was best for Maddie.  There are consequences either way of course, but at the end of day I'd feel much worse to have made a decision that ended up hurting my child and compromising her future. 

 

But it's just Deacon that applies to? Other men deserve more consideration in the same situation? Other addicts deserve more consideration? Yes, every situation is different and women have the right to protect their babies. So what? That makes them above reproach? They suddenly don't make any mistakes because they're mothers...or women?

 

It sounds like you're saying this is a one-size-fits-all situation and that every time an addict gets a woman pregnant the same choice should be made.  That would just be silly.  Yes, I think every woman in this situation has a right to make a decision using their own best judgment for their baby.  Does that make them above reproach or mean they don't make mistakes?  Of course not!  Go ahead and reproach all you want.  All I'm saying is that in this situation, as depicted on a TV show, I agree with the choice Rayna made.

 

But simply being an addict doesn't mean you should inherently lose all rights to your child, and the American legal system agrees with me.

 

This varies from state to state and I know things are changing in terms of father's rights, but as far as I know the American legal system's first priority in child custody is to protect the child.  As it should be.

 

I get that you think it's OK to lie to the people we love and who love and trust us, but I absolutely do not.

 

And I get that you put telling the truth above the welfare of a child and I absolutely do not agree.  Rayna also loved and trusted Deacon when he got out of rehab and accepted his proposal and no doubt suffered betrayal after betrayal from him.  Do I blame Rayna for being unwilling to bring a child into that environment and telling a lie that very effectively protected her baby from it?  Not one bit.

[airwair]

Rayna could have told Deacon about Maddie while still protecting her.

It wouldn't have been the crisis situation everyone imagines were she to not marry Teddy (imagine that), tell Deacon about his daughter, but also specify to him that if he did not get clean and prove he could stay clean he wouldn't be able to touch her with a 10 foot pole.

At that point every bit of it would've been on him, however it turned out.

And saying this would've been detrimental to Maddie is nonsense. Even if he did screw up and Rayna kept him away, she still would have had plenty of love. She would've had Tandy, Uncle Watty, and even for his misgivings Lamar seemed to be a loving grandfather to the girls.

When you say "welfare" it sounds like you're insinuating Deacon would've hauled off and beat her every chance he got. Would it have been heartbreaking for her to possibly see her daddy relapse? Absolutely, but I also can't tell you how many people I know as adults who had shitty childhoods masked over with rainbows and butterflies and who now wish they would've just been told the truth from the beginning because the pain it's causing them in their adult life is difficult to cope with.

[madam magpie]

I agree 100%, airwair, but I'll also say that for me, I get what Rayna did and think it's absolutely understandable and forgivable. What I don't buy or like is that Rayna herself has already settled into that. She's not a jerk or a sociopath; she has a conscience, and that's conscience works.

[airwair]

I can certainly see it in the beginning, but I have to believe she should've chosen differently at some point down the line. Making the elusive "agreement" with Teddy that Deacon can never, ever know is where they lose me.

That said, I agree with you 100% that removing whether or not she was right or wrong, she hurt him so very badly and can't even manage to say she's sorry for hurting him.

[Sutton]

Does anybody think that this series is going to make things right for Deacon, Maddie and I will say it Rayna. I would hope so, after she realizes that her life is tanking fast with LW. Will her conscience finally realize that she has to make it right especially for Maddie and maybe she can have that talk we are all waiting for with Deacon. (WOW, me fantasizing again.)