Things That Bugged: Frustrations Thread...

[WendyCR72]

Inspired by the SVU thread. There are things people liked, but what about things that bugged the hell out of you, be it the case, the characters, or just how things play out?

 

I know some have even complained of how lopsided some things were.

 

So go into detail as much as you please here!  :-P

[WendyCR72]

LOL! I love how you capitalized Zack/Zach Nichols. LOL!

 

And I'll second the captain/ADA issues. Mostly the ADA; The show was Law & Order: Criminal Intent. All the other incarnations had a steady ADA. Once CBV left, someone stable should have been brought in. If the cops and captains could be replaced so, too, could the ADA.

 

(I THINK the lawyers are the Law part, as the cops keep Order? Yes? No? Who knows?  :-P )

[WendyCR72]

And then in came Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio... and just when I thought that was as bad as it could get (and she's a fine actress, that was a massive failure of writing), let's welcome Jay O. Sanders, who just made me wonder, "Why bother at this point?" They could have dispensed with him entirely and beefed up Julia Ormond. Her screentime and interactions with Goren were far more substantive to his character arc, if not related to the investigation at hand.

 

I...didn't mind Jay O. Sanders. He wasn't NEAR Jamey Sheridan, but then he also wasn't a douche (or as I saw him) like Ross was. So maybe he benefited - to me! - in not pissing all over his crew as Ross seemed to dig. I don't know. :-) I *did* like him as the killer in "Dead", the S2 premiere. But I do think someone else could have led MCS.

[Donny Ketchum]

Goren solving EVERYTHING, and Eames never getting to be the heroine.  I know everyone here is so desperately in love with him to the point of me wanting to throw up and kill someone, but him being so all-knowing all the time just frustrated and, eventually, bored me.  I always liked the "alternative" pairs' episodes more because it meant it'd be up in the air as to which member of said pair would solve the case.  With Goren and Eames, you always knew Goren would be the one to crack it.

[rujasu]

(I THINK the lawyers are the Law part, as the cops keep Order? Yes? No? Who knows?  :-P )

 

That would make sense, but watch the opening credits of original L&O sometimes.  The word LAW appears on-screen, followed by senior detective, junior detective, captain.  Then ORDER appears on screen, there's a picture of a courthouse, followed by EADA, ADA, DA.  It doesn't make sense that the cops who keep order are called LAW and the lawyers are called ORDER, but they weren't going to call the show ORDER & LAW, so that's what we got.  So detectives are LAW and DA's are ORDER, even though that seems ridiculous.

 

So that's why we say SVU/CI are all LAW and no ORDER.  Particularly on CI, where Goren just gets the perp to confess so there's never any need for a courtroom scene.

[Maherjunkie]

It took two guys to replace Lindsay Buckingham in Fleetwood Mac.  I think of CBV as the same way.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, George Dzundza. Funny how every show I saw him in (which, um, is just L&O and Jesse in the '90s with Christina Applegate), he was a one (season) and done guy.

 

He must be a blast to get along with or something...

 

So that's why we say SVU/CI are all LAW and no ORDER.  Particularly on CI, where Goren just gets the perp to confess so there's never any need for a courtroom scene.

 

No secret that I like Goren, BUT that said, I bet half those confessions would get tossed.  :-)

[Maherjunkie]

Wendy, he is on the Waltons once or twice.

[rujasu]

No secret that I like Goren, BUT that said, I bet half those confessions would get tossed.  :-)

 

Oh, for sure.  If we did see court cases for CI, it would just be an endless stream of motions against the prosecution...

 

"Motion to suppress the confession"

"Motion to exclude evidence found by detectives just waltzing into the defendant's house claiming they needed a drink of water"

"Motion to dismiss"

"Motion to compel the lead detective to see a psychiatrist... and a chiropractor"

[WendyCR72]

Wendy, he is on the Waltons once or twice.

 

Maher, do you mean George Dzundza? Well then, maybe he got less easy to get along with as he got older! (I kid! But it is strange that, later on, he never seemed to stay on a show past its first season!)

[Maherjunkie]

Yes, he plays a very sweet writer who steps aside for John Boy, as anybody on the Mtn did.

[WendyCR72]

Yes, he plays a very sweet writer who steps aside for John Boy, as anybody on the Mtn did.

 

Let's see The Waltons was early '70s? If so, I was busy rockin' the Pampers (OK, the Kimbies, precursor to Luvs!), but thanks for the info.  :-)  Funnily enough, after his one and done on Jesse, I'm guessing Dzundza hung it up, as I haven't seen him in anything in ages.

[Maherjunkie]

Yes, he worked with Cuba Gooding Jr in one movie.  Think he played a coach or something.

[Maherjunkie]

If he wasn't naked, don't sweat it.

[WendyCR72]

I need a brain bleach, as last night I had a dream with George Dzundza in it. That spot is reserved for the likes of Hugh Jackman. Ewwww.

 

Whatever you may have eaten or drunk before bed? STOP IT NOW!

 

To return to the actual topic, another thing that bugged me (and is known from other threads, but whatever!) is how Danny Ross was always in the thick of things will Deakins before him was just, 9 times out of 10, exposition guy. It really bugged me.

 

Also never understood the about face with peripheral cops joking with Bobby in the early years or whatever to, suddenly, Bobby being an outcast.

[Maherjunkie]

It started with misreading the slut in Person of Interest.

[SFoster21]

It always bugged me that Katherine Erbe had to do that head shake constantly to clear her eyes. Barrette? Different hairdo? What, no whiplash injury?

[WendyCR72]

It always bugged me that Katherine Erbe had to do that head shake constantly to clear her eyes. Barrette? Different hairdo? What, no whiplash injury?

 

At least she grew the bangs out for S10. That said, I liked her hair in the very beginning before it got REALLY short and then liked it around S6/S7. S8 seemed to have the issue with the bangs.

[Eolivet]

OK, I just have to say it: I don't see why Bobby needed professionally-mandated therapy (other than to give Julia Ormond a nice paycheck). Maybe I could make a case for having himself committed to expose the mental institution, but everything else he did (to my knowledge/memory) was just undercover work and independent investigating. Was he insubordinate? Yes. But I don't see how insubordination equals "department-mandated therapy."

 

Plus, all his traumas were personal -- his brother, his mother, his nephew, etc. His nephew affected his job, but I don't see how the others did. Maybe the "I go after criminals who are bad fathers" bias, but that was a while ago.

 

I feel like the show went with "Bobby is craaaaaazy" as a "tell, don't show" -- asking us to believe them over my own lying eyes.

 

And while we're on the subject of things that are bugging me: Ion has no CI repeats today or next Saturday?! Only Christmas movies? Bah, humbug!

Edited December 13, 2014 by Eolivet

[WendyCR72]

And while we're on the subject of things that are bugging me: Ion has no CI repeats today or next Saturday?! Only Christmas movies? Bah, humbug!

 

Yeah, I turned on the TV and saw some Santa Claus talking to someone in jail. Oh, well. And yeah, it returns on the 27th, but not at 11:00 a.m., the usual time, but 1:00 p.m. The 11-1 slots must have another holiday movie or something.

 

On the topic of Bobby being cuh-razy, I also think - besides money for Julia Ormond, it was to give Warren Leight something to do. I read he wrote all the therapy scenes even though he was no longer EP. But I agree: All of Bobby's issues were personal and he always had an issue with authority, and it troubled really no one 'til Leight decided the department - despite showing the opposite early on - didn't like the guy, etc.

 

Meh. At least, also in S10, we saw dayplayer cops actually seem to be respectful of the guy again.

[Eolivet]

On the topic of Bobby being cuh-razy, I also think - besides money for Julia Ormond, it was to give Warren Leight something to do. I read he wrote all the therapy scenes even though he was no longer EP. But I agree: All of Bobby's issues were personal and he always had an issue with authority, and it troubled really no one 'til Leight decided the department - despite showing the opposite early on - didn't like the guy, etc.

 

Ah, I didn't know that, WendyCR72. Well, it makes sense -- I see firing him because he's never going to do what you say/he's a liability to the department. But making him go to therapy doesn't make him...less of a liability. Someone who's insubordinate isn't going to stop being that way because they finally figure out they have mommy issues or whatever.

 

It also bugs me because Bobby was so self-aware. He recognized patterns and tendencies in himself before pretty much anyone else. He was constantly (it seemed to me) "self-monitoring" because of his family history. But none of that had anything to do with him defying procedure.

[WendyCR72]

 

Ah, I didn't know that, WendyCR72. Well, it makes sense -- I see firing him because he's never going to do what you say/he's a liability to the department. But making him go to therapy doesn't make him...less of a liability. Someone who's insubordinate isn't going to stop being that way because they finally figure out they have mommy issues or whatever.

 

It also bugs me because Bobby was so self-aware. He recognized patterns and tendencies in himself before pretty much anyone else. He was constantly (it seemed to me) "self-monitoring" because of his family history. But none of that had anything to do with him defying procedure.

 

No arguments from me there, @Eolivet !  :-)  I really did miss Rene Balcer as EP. He had perfect grasp of "less is more" and was able to give glimpses of the personal stuff without drowning the viewers in it. And I do credit later EPs post Leight, Walon Green and Chris Brancato, for also pulling back on it, but Balcer knew the show and the characters backwards and forwards and - I think - believed the audience was smart enough to pick up on things and not having to be force-fed info.

 

Then again, as you pointed out with the writing, besides Balcer leaving after S5, maybe the show's move from NBC to USA starting in S7 had to do with the more ham-fisted approach, too.

[WendyCR72]

Plus, all his traumas were personal -- his brother, his mother, his nephew, etc. His nephew affected his job, but I don't see how the others did. Maybe the "I go after criminals who are bad fathers" bias, but that was a while ago.

 

Just bringing up this snippet again because, well...doesn't this basically describe most of the cops in the franchise, not just Bobby? Stabler had family issues out the wazoo, as did/does Benson, and Logan, Briscoe, Green, Curtis, and you name them on The Mothership.

 

So, in that respect, with all of those issues, maybe Dr. Gyson should have had a group discount.  :-)  Hell, have all the therapists have a panel with all of these poor dysfunctional cops: Skoda! Olivet! Gyson! The dude from SVU whose name escapes me! It could be an entertaining free-for-all...unless one or more of said cops and their short tempers start throwing punches...or furniture.  :-)

[WendyCR72]

Not really bugged, per se, but a thought came a couple weeks back when ION was repeating S6. I just never brought it up because, well, it wasn't important, but it came to me out of the blue again. Why? Pfft, who knows. But here goes: "Blind Spot" was an admittedly good episode even as it got...sort of soapy. Okay, fine.

 

But how the hell did Jo Gage do all she did alone with no accomplice to speak of? I mean, really? The stalking and the ultimate killing? Maybe. The lotion stuff? Okay. But Alex was hanging on a freaking hook or something, and Jo's little workshop of horrors had heavy folding tables and such. So how the hell did this one woman lift her victims? None of them could overpower her? Especially Alex, a cop with, no doubt, lots of training under her belt?

 

Ultimately, I realize the answer: It's TV! Blame those evil plot gremlins! But yeah. I also watch(ed) Bones and their Gravedigger arc bugged me for much the same reason, so there you go.  :-)

 

Huh...and now that I think of it, completely unrelated to this, more or less, but how ironic that Rene Balcer's Parisian take on L&O:CI was called...Jo. Go figure.

[Spartan Girl]

Something that's always bugged me is how the ex-wife in "Crazy" that lied about her ex molesting her daughter to get custody of the kids and indirectly played a role in his murder never got comeuppance.  I would have loved it if the son at least found out what she did and disowned her.

[Maherjunkie]

Or her sister gave her to Axl Rose.

[WendyCR72]

Something that's always bugged me is how the ex-wife in "Crazy" that lied about her ex molesting her daughter to get custody of the kids and indirectly played a role in his murder never got comeuppance.  I would have loved it if the son at least found out what she did and disowned her.

 

Oh, yeah. That lie put the ball in motion. The ex-wife should have had some sort of consequences because of it!

[Donny Ketchum]

Oh, yeah. That lie put the ball in motion. The ex-wife should have had some sort of consequences because of it!

I don't remember much about that episode.  Did she lie to Goren and Eames?  Or to the one who ended up killing him?  If the latter, then I can see why she suffered no consequences.  It's lying to the cops that I'd agree about.

 

I mentioned it a few months ago in season five's thread, but I'll say it here, too.  In "The Healer," while I can see how Logan and Barek could've gotten him immunity since he could legitimately have claimed plausible deniability in all knowledge of Lydia's schemes, it's still glaring to me that Robbie didn't at least get considered for involuntary manslaughter for unknowingly aiding her in Sarah and Kristy's murders.  I figured it was likely the way Logan and Barek saw him reacting as her schemes were laid out, and how disgusted with himself he looked that he'd unintentionally aided her in two murders.  Like they clearly saw a guy who had absolutely no idea in any of what'd been going on.  But still, involuntary manslaughter at the very least should've been on the table, even if he did end up with immunity.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[WendyCR72]

I don't remember much about that episode.  Did she lie to Goren and Eames?  Or to the one who ended up killing him?  If the latter, then I can see why she suffered no consequences.  It's lying to the cops that I'd agree about.

 

The wife lied to the court. She had claimed her husband molested their daughter, even though, as discovered by the end, she knew her soon to be ex had cleaned Sophie because she had diarrhea after ice cream. Because her husband's lawyers were burying her in court. And it was all waved off by G/E and treated as no big deal in the writing, which made zero sense as that lie put everything into motion.

 

It was her sister who went to ol' Charlie the crazy shrink, the guy she basically kept on a string, because she bought her sister's claims and wanted him to talk to her niece. Which ended up with him murdering the ex for Sarah's affections.

 

But still, involuntary manslaughter at the very least should've been on the table, even if he did end up with immunity.

 

Not a lawyer, but maybe it was a matter of proving the case, so if immunity was the only way to get him to spill what he knows, it was worth basically letting him go to try to reel in the bigger fish.

[GHScorpiosRule]

This is really an unpopular opinion, but since we don't have a thread for that, and it is something that bugged me and irked me, I'm posting it here.  Watched "Smile" last night and I really, really did NOT like Eames' response to Bobby's question about whether it bothered her that she might not rise up in rank. Of course, now we know it's not true, but then we didn't.

 

She says: "It used to...now it's too late."

 

I'm like, what the fuck? Is she seriously blaming Bobby? I ask because of the delivery and the look on her face that told me, at least, that yeah, she does blame Bobby, because she feels she won't rise in rank.

[WendyCR72]

This is really an unpopular opinion, but since we don't have a thread for that, and it is something that bugged me and irked me, I'm posting it here.  Watched "Smile" last night and I really, really did NOT like Eames' response to Bobby's question about whether it bothered her that she might not rise up in rank. Of course, now we know it's not true, but then we didn't.

 

She says: "It used to...now it's too late."

 

I'm like, what the fuck? Is she seriously blaming Bobby? I ask because of the delivery and the look on her face that told me, at least, that yeah, she does blame Bobby, because she feels she won't rise in rank.

 

 

I don't know what that was about either, unless Leight just wanted to pile more shit on Bobby and used Eames to do it. And I really think it was extremely out of character for her, since before and since that episode, Eames was EXTREMELY loyal to Bobby.

 

Hell, she did rise in rank - and quit anyway because of her loyalty/"strong personal feelings" (per Moran) for Bobby.

 

So I still have no clue what that was about except for the aforementioned shitpiling, because it seemed pointless in the end.

[roseha]

I agree with the above, Leight tried to stir up resentment between Goren and Eames that didn't exist the rest of the time in my opinion.  Worse, he absolutely took away Eames' sense of humor when he was in charge.  Her wicked wisecracks didn't return until after he left if I remember correctly.

 

The storyline that annoyed me most was "Bobby's father was a serial killer".  It was so contrived and there was no reason on earth for it.  I kept wishing that before the show ended they would find out it wasn't true. 

 

I also really missed Carver and wish they had found a way to bring him back in Season 10, even for a couple of episodes.

[WendyCR72]

I also really missed Carver and wish they had found a way to bring him back in Season 10, even for a couple of episodes.

 

I agree here. I think it sucks that Ron Carver never really got an episode surrounding events to flesh him out. Even Deakins got "My Good Name" and "On Fire". (But since Jamey Sheridan left after S5, maybe that was the only reason; I missed Deakins as well as Carver. Never was much of a Ross fan, to be honest.)

 

Yeah, the Leight years were downers. Some good acting, to be sure. To connect it to above, Roy Scheider played the hell out of Mark Ford Brady. I had zero issues there. I could even buy he had a consensual fling with Bobby's mom and perhaps think Bobby could be his son, but it did seem like overkill. However, it also spawned "Frame", and I did like that one if just for Eames going to bat for Bobby and throwing derisive looks at Ross, etc. LOL! So pluses and minuses galore.

 

To circle back to Carver, the show didn't even explain what happened to him! Always did wonder. I'd like to think he went into politics or something. That could have put him back in G/E's orbit to ask for their help with something.

[roseha]

 

To circle back to Carver, the show didn't even explain what happened to him! Always did wonder. I'd like to think he went into politics or something. That could have put him back in G/E's orbit to ask for their help with something.

 

Good idea Wendy!  What I hoped for when S10 started (and I might have mentioned it on TWOP) was that Carver would reappear somehow, and need help on some old case that had involved Goren and Eames, and that would trigger their comeback as a team.  Not to be sigh.

[WendyCR72]

Good idea Wendy!  What I hoped for when S10 started (and I might have mentioned it on TWOP) was that Carver would reappear somehow, and need help on some old case that had involved Goren and Eames, and that would trigger their comeback as a team.  Not to be sigh.

 

That would have been great, roseha. Or, if he was in politics, since Major Case was an elite unit, maybe something would happen to a member of his family (there were actually throwaway lines spaced out where Carver mentioned a wife and kids). Maybe one of his past cases as the ADA would put them in danger or something. Sigh.

 

I really liked S10, but it would have been great to see Carver and/or Deakins for one last hurrah.

 

(I also wish the old theme was used for S10; the L&O: Trial By Jury theme USA appropriated for S7-10 bugged me. Too obnoxious or something!)

[WendyCR72]

One thing this show was very bad at was departures. Carver and Deakins are discussed at length above. But aside from Logan, Goren, Eames, and Ross, everyone else?

<Crickets>

For Falacci and Bishop, I get it, they were temp partners. But Barek disappears after S5 with not a word as to why. Wheeler was on for three seasons and got squat. And that one surprised me since the character seemed well received and was a Ross protege. I would have thought, after Nicholson's leave, the show would have had her back if just to tie up loose ends. But nothing. Makes me wonder if something went down behind the scenes. I get the actress was heavily pregnant, but Megan Wheeler basically became a ghost in due course.

Then, naturally, there was the S9 crew. This has been discussed, too. But I do recall Jeff Goldblum in the press claiming he left because of the show's uncertain future and USA letting contracts lapse, etc. But with all exiting, I do wonder there. And even if I had little fondness for that season, I'd think the wipeout would have been at least referenced, character wise. Were they gone? On screen but never shown? (Minus Callas, obviously, since Hannah took over her job.) The show just never filled in the blanks.

On the other end of the spectrum, it was nice to see Skip the computer guy in S10. I think it was the same guy all the way back in S1 in "The Third Horseman".