I Am The Law: Ethics And Morality In The Buffyverse

[lembergwatcher]

On 18.08.2018 at 9:11 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

I always thought it added to the Scoobs humanity and he gave them comic relief after the 2 dark season 6?

If you mean Andrew, I don't remember him being particularly humane and funny. Andrew's humour was mostly inappropriate and his hanging around with the gang didn't make S.07. any more "optimistic" than the previous season (in fact, I can't see any difference between those two seasons). 

[lembergwatcher]

Aside from the desire to keep particular actors as part of the cast (though it's hardly an excuse), the series' creators deliberately decided to do a 180 regarding the message of the show. We spent the high school years (seasons 1-3) living in the world of black n' white where humans were mostly good and the things that go bump in the night - bad (Angel and Oz being almost only notable exceptions). Back then Buffy and her friends knew the difference between good and bad, right and wrong. They knew the vampires were there only for the staking. They didn't believe in "coexistence" with demonic bloodthirsty creatures, for said creatures didn't want to coexist with "Happy Meals on Legs", and the Scoobs remembered what Giles have told them at the very beginning.
 

Quote

GILES: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.

But after Scoobies graduated from SHS and entered the adult life, Joss IMO probably decided to show the main protagonists (and the audience for that matter) that they should feel ambiguous about it all. Suddenly following the older paradigm "humans good/demons bad" became a sign of "bigotry" (Buffy called Riley a "bigot" in New Moon Rising):

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RILEY: No, come on. Is it that whole thing about Willow last night? Look, I only said what I said because I'm concerned. I don't wanna see her get hurt.

BUFFY: You sounded like Mr. Initiative. Demons bad, people good.

RILEY: Something wrong with that theorem?

BUFFY: There's different degrees of-

RILEY: Evil?

BUFFY: It's just... different with different demons. There are creatures - vampires, for example -- that aren't evil at all.

RILEY: Name one.

Then there was Anya in Family:

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BETH: Well. I hope you'll all be happy hanging out with a disgusting demon.
ANYA: E-excuse me. What kind?
BETH: What?
ANYA: What kind of demon is she? There's a lot of different kinds. Some are very, very evil. And some have been considered to be useful members of society.
BETH: Well, I-I ... what does it matter?
MR. MACLAY: Evil is evil.
ANYA: Well, let's just narrow it down.

The assumption that some creatures of the dark can in fact be good and "useful members of society" paved the way for futher departure from the show's initial message. Given that writers thought that wasn't enough, they decided to strengthen the point in abominable season 6, making Anya's friend and hellbitch Halfrek say something like that in Older and Far Away:

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TARA: I thought vengeance demons only punished men who wronged women.
HALFREK: Oh, that was Anya's little raison d'кtre. Most of us try to be a little more well-rounded. And actually, we prefer 'justice demon.' Okay? FYI.

None of the Scoobies objected to that. The notion that "vengeance = justice" was quite an interesting concept and rather lame attempt to whitewash Anya Jenkins - one of Joss' post-season 3 darlings. Don't know about you, but my initial impression was that writers wanted me (and the other viewers) to believe that killing/hurting people for fun was merely an act of justice. They should have known better. Because in Triangle from previous season a "working gal" admitted clearly her old "job" was in fact very far from actual justice:

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ANYA: Hmm. Humans make the same mistakes over and over. I saw it when I was a vengeance demon. Some guy dumps a girl, she calls me, I exact vengeance, blah blah blah, the next year, same girl, different guy. I mean, after you smite a few of 'em you start going "my goodness, young lady ... maybe you're doing something wrong here too."

You see, Anya didn't give a hoot about justice, she didn't care whether those guys were real scumbags and deserved punishment ('coz girls never lie, you know). She didn't investigate. She hurt people because she liked her "job". In what twisted dictionary is that freaking "justice"? And don't tell me she or others of her kind were just mercenaries summoned and told what to do (Anya in The Wish and Hallie in Older and Far Away did their best to have Cordelia and Dawn respectively making their wishes, 'cause they enjoyed it - much like Ethan loved his chaos magic).

The undisguised glorification (or brainwashing audience into loving) unrepentant mass murderers like Spike or Anya, potraying them as "good" ("loving boyfriend" and "reliable ally" in Spike's case, funny "working gal" and devoted fiancée in Anya's), along with sidelining main protagonists, destroyed the show at the end (Anya could be quite an entertaining plot twist if it was about Xander descending into darkness, but no, we see mostly the same old Xander from The Harsh Light of Day until Chosen). I can accept the fact that many in the fandom really do like Captain Peroxide and former vengeance demon, yet I cannot view any of them as positive and worthy of acceptance into the ranks of the Scooby Gang (Buffy and the others appeared to be dangerously gullible after showing inexcusable indifference to Xander's choice of prom date and assuming that Spike was "harmless" after Initiative's surgeons had performed their duties on him). Because I can see no good in promoting characters who:

1. Never denounced the things they did as a vampire or vengeance demon, showed no regret or remorse for taking/destroying innocent lives;
2. Constantly bragged about the "good old days" of killing and torture, made fun of their victims;
3. Frequently regretted losing their powers to kill/hurt.

And when both of them had the slightest opportunity to return to their old ways (Anya at the end of S.06 - beginning of S.07, Spike at the beginning of S.07), they took that chance and only due to bad writing got away with everything (until the series finale, when two of them were shown to be the heroes of the day...).

I dunno, maybe JW was into the whole relativism thing or something. Or his plan of character assassinations included not only whitewashing Evil or turning someone like Captain Peroxide into series' main protagonist, but making the Scoobs all of a sudden follow the "nothing is wrong if it feels good" (or "I know it's not right, but damn it feels good") pattern as well. What if he thought people become assholes after finishing high school?.. Anyway I get the feeling that some kind of "moral relativism" (if I get the thing right) was the real message of Buffy's seasons 4-7.
 

1. Xander felt good while fucking Anya, 'cause, you know, the coitus made him feel better, complete, less miserable, cast out, neglected or abandoned by friends, made him somehow forget the mess he was in. Therefore he decided to turn a blind eye on who his lover was and her murderous past. Even worse - he fell in love with the bitch;
2. Willow didn't mind about erasing her girlfriend's memory since she, you know, felt good with her, loved her performance in bed, didn't want to talk about her problem, didn't want Tara to leave her, didn't want changes in her life and dreaded taking responsibility for her actions;
3. Tara appeared to be OK with cursing her supposed friends instead of checking the whole her being demon claim. It probably didn't even occur to Wicca #3 that she shouldn't take Daddy Maclay's words for granted. She was either too lazy or too dumb to do a little digging and decided to evoke Blind Cadria instead, thus making her friends (the demon hunters actually) unable to see the fucking demons (I still can't understand why did the Scoobs forgive her that easily);
4. Buffy was an emotional wreck after being brouht back from Heeeeeeaaaaven. She knew damn well who Spike was (and what he wanted), but he made her feel... I dunno, "good" (can't find the appropriate word anyway) in one way or another (the sex was good, it was all about sex). Therefore she chose to engage into abusive, destructive, humiliating relationship, that was gross and totally wrong at the same time. Her friends were too "inferior" to understand Queen B's misery, so she decided to boink the undead monster and eventually chose him over her best friends, Watcher and even younger sister in the final season...  

Morality and ethics do matter - even if we talk about TV show.

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Aside from the desire to keep particular actors as part of the cast (though it's hardly an excuse), the series' creators deliberately decided to do a 180 regarding the message of the show.

Honestly, I am not so sure that it was deliberate or just the result of really terrible worldbuilding and characterization. The actual repercussions of vampires and demons not being evil by default were never properly dealt with. The message was hopelessly muddled and contradictory - for example, it's not okay to kill any humans, no matter how evil they might be but it's perfectly okay to kill any and all vampires/demons who step out of line, even if their crimes are nothing compared to that of certain human villains. We should consider demons to be just another word for aliens, who have the capacity to be good and should be respected... yet our protagonists still slaughtered them without hesitation if the demons stood in their way. Even demons who were once humans like that guy with the visions from Hell's Bells. Basically, the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

Then in the comics

Spoiler

we have even bigger nonsense, with Harmony's rules - vampires are supposedly quite able to restrain their blood-lust after all, even though we saw Spike contemplate suicide after a week or two without killing.

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I think that's the crux of vampire fantasy shows and a natural evolution of the show. Things just get more interesting when it's more ambiguous and not strictly black-white.

Moral ambiguity is not better than black and white morality by default. Give me the latter any day if the alternative is "ambiguity" riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. For example, exactly where is the ambiguity in the case of Anya? She was a murderous psychopath, period. She was, however, inexplicably considered a comic relief and tolerated by the Scoobs for no reason other than Emma Caulfield's contract. Redemption isn't as simple as character X suddenly deciding to be good and everything is forgiven just like that. Joss and co wrote so many "redemption" storylines and most of them were absolute garbage, IMO, little more than excuses to keep some actor they liked in the show by character assassinating the actual protagonists in the process.

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To be fair, when your family tells you something about you, you believe them blindly, even when they have been mistreating you.

Even if you are a specialist in a particular field and they are amateurs? Tara's background makes absolutely no sense (I love Tara but I have to be honest). There is no reason whatsoever for her or even less for her mother to believe the nonsense about being demons. It works very well as a metaphor for the prejudices against homosexuality, sure, but as an actual story in a fantasy world, not so much.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

To be fair, when your family tells you something about you, you believe them blindly, even when they have been mistreating you. Tara grew up in her family and has internalized whatever her family has told her, because they probably fed those lies to her from an early age on.

That's right. We tend to believe our family blindly and internalize whatever our parents or older siblings say when we are a small kids. But people have a tendency to doubt many things that parents said when they grow up. Tara was 19-years-old UC Sunnydale student when she first met Willow in Hush and turned 20 in Family. A fairly adult age to start asking some questions regarding the issue. "So they say I'm a demon?" - she should have thought - "And, sure, they have some justifications for that theory. But hey, I'm a Wicca and I have been doing this kind of stuff since I was little, and why can't I use my magic to do a little research and validate my old man's claim?" Why not do it out of pure anxiety (I'm a demon = I can pose a threat to the ones around me), out of interest or just for Willow's sake? Willow happens to be Tara's girfriend: what would Tara do if she herself suddenly turned into brutal Fyarl demon while having sweaty sex with the redhead Wicca? If you truly love someone and don't want her to get hurt or lose her because your family says you have a demon inside you, then either stay away from that person or find the time to do some checking. But don't do as you did in Goodbye Iowa or Family, for God's sake!  

Besides, when we meet Tara for the first time in season 4, she's free from her family's grasp. She lives in the dorm. There's no one to control her, no one to remind her constantly 'bout the "dirty family secret", no signs of annoying Papa Maclay, equally annoying cousin Beth or Donny the Jerk for 18 consecutive episodes... What was understandable for the little girl, who had no choice but to believe any BS her relatives fed her with, hardly an excuse for a young, 19-20-years old woman, who doesn't live with her parents and has sexual relationship with other person.

I don't think the Scoobs should have burned Tara at the stake after Blind Cadria and everything, but Willow's initial reaction ("she just did a spell that went wrong") was plain ridiculous. Other thing is that many people who are always ready to (rightfully) condemn Willow for what she did in All the Way and Tabula Rasa, choose to ignore when it comes to Tara doing irresponsible (and quite immoral) things.  

[lembergwatcher]

37 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

For example, exactly where is the ambiguity in the case of Anya? She was a murderous psychopath, period. She was, however, inexplicably considered a comic relief and tolerated by the Scoobs for no reason other than Emma Caulfield's contract. Redemption isn't as simple as character X suddenly deciding to be good and everything is forgiven just like that. Joss and co wrote so many "redemption" storylines and most of them were absolute garbage, IMO, little more than excuses to keep some actor they liked in the show by character assassinating the actual protagonists in the process.

If Joss really believed Emma and James were such a great gift for the show, there were lots of possibilities to keep them in (though there were very few of their appearances in seasons 1-3 and, hey, that worked, but nevertheless...). There could have been some: a) demon hunter, actual human from Pratt family (thus distant relative of William the Bloody with equal love for bad poetry and punk rock) who came to town and annoyed the shit out of the Scoobs at first, but then Buffy fell in love with him, yada-yada (in James' case); b) working gal from Indiana, having Scandinavian roots (her ancestors coming from mysterious Sjornjost in present-day Sweden, hence - connection and physical resemblance with Aud/Anyanka) and odd sense of humour but with less blood and gore (in Emma's case). Then again Anya the Ex-Demon could have been a good storyline to show, say, Xander's brief descend into darkness (there were some conditions to it after Lovers Walk or Amends). Just like Spike could provide a good plot twist for Buffy losing her way post-Heeeeaaaven, not the one she should have loved (Buffy's last words in the series were "I love you" addressed to Spike and "Spike" when Giles asked her about the one who saved the day) or constantly chosen over her friends for two consecutive seasons.

[Pallas]

Buffy's last words to Spike were "I love you," as he chose to burn up to save the world for the living. And she truthfully answered "Spike," when Giles stared at the smoking crater left of home-is-where-the-hellmouth-is and asked, "Who did this?" But in the series, the Slayer's last words were, "We live." 

[Halting Hex]

9 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

There is no reason whatsoever for her or even less for her mother to believe the nonsense about being demons.

Seriously.  I mean, we know that Tara was seventeen when her mother died (The Body); it seems as if there's more than enough time there for Momma Maclay to realize, "you know, I don't think I'm a demon, after all".  Or since it's Dad Maclay who says "The women in our family have demon in them" is he supposedly only referring to the Maclay line, and Mom (only being a Maclay by marriage) was never a demon at all?  So why didn't she ask to see the evidence, and defend her daughter (and her niece, Beth) against the accusation? Weird.

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

But in the series, the Slayer's last words were, "We live." 

Where do you get that from?  I certainly didn't see it, and it isn't in the script:

Quote

DAWN: Buffy? What are we gonna do now?

Buffy looks at them, looks back at the crater, and we are in full close up as she considers the question, a small smile creeping onto her lips as she decides on her answer.

BLACK OUT.

END OF SHOW.

Nor the transcript of the aired episode:

Quote

DAWN: Yeah, Buffy. What are we gonna do now?

As the others chatter around her, Buffy just stares straight ahead at the hole formerly known as Sunnydale. As she contemplates what's next, she smiles.

Cut to:

Closing credits.

Your source, if I may ask?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Pallas]

2 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Your source, if I may ask?

My dreamz! Thank you: it's been awhile since I've seen Chosen. I'd been thinking of a friend with whom I'd discussed the finale, the next day. What we both said then (I now recall) was how we liked the way it went without saying that Buffy had thought, "We live." All that means is that my quote's a shot in the foot, not a shot out of the canon. 

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Seriously.  I mean, we know that Tara was seventeen when her mother died (The Body); it seems as if there's more than enough time there for Momma Maclay to realize, "you know, I don't think I'm a demon, after all".  Or since it's Dad Maclay who says "The women in our family have demon in them" is he supposedly only referring to the Maclay line, and Mom (only being a Maclay by marriage) was never a demon at all?  So why didn't she ask to see the evidence, and defend her daughter (and her niece, Beth) against the accusation? Weird.

Where do you get that from?  I certainly didn't see it, and it isn't in the script:

Nor the transcript of the aired episode:

Your source, if I may ask?

Wonderful that the last words on Buffy are for our lovely Dawn. Of course I always thought it would be a great ending if Buffy then woke up and told the doctors at the asylum she was ready to go home now. 

[lembergwatcher]

Speaking of moral ambiguity e.t.c. Among the things I really disliked about the Scoobies was their increasingly selective approach when it came to particular circumstances or perpetrators of Evil. I think it didn't do the show any good when its main protagonists let too many things cloud their judgement thus being very principled on one occassion and too indulgent on another. We could witness those double standards in cases concerning love or other interests of the Scoobies.

Xander could be all hollier than thou with Angel (rightfully so, mind you) and turn a blind eye to Anya.  Buffy went all the way to L.A. to punish Faith and hadn't lifted a finger when it came to Spike who lived on a nearby cemetery. The same Buffy drove her sword into Anya's chest in Selfless in response to Anyanka 2.0's crimes only to make Xander let the murderous psychopath Spike into his house in the next episode. Willow attacked Glory for raping Tara's mind (Tough Love ) and did something similar to Tara and other Scoobies when it suited her (All the Way and Tabula Rasa).

One of the most blatant (and preposterous) examples of such an approach can be seen in Empty Places. Little of what Buffy said or did in the final episodes of the horrible season 7 made sense, but after hearing her saying that during the confrontation with Faith, Potentials and other Scoobies I really didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
 

Quote

BUFFY: You're just lovin' this, aren't you?

FAITH: You have no idea what I'm feeling.

BUFFY: Come in here, take everything that I have... You did it before. Did you tell them that? Did you tell them how you used to kill people for fun? Hey, you guys think that's nifty?

GILES: Buffy, that's enough!

Faith's crime spree: 1999 - 2000 (excluding eight months in a coma).

At the same time:
Angel's crime spree: 1753 - 1898, 1998;

Spike's crime spree: 1880 - 1999, 2002:
Anya's crime spree: 880 - 1998, 2002.

Though Faith was literally, I dunno, Mother Theresa compared to Buffy's two vampire darlings or (former) best friend's former girlfriend, it was her case when past sins could be brought up (Robin for his part was not allowed to raise the topic of his slain mother because of the "mission"). Angel and Spike were the Slayer's loverboys (thus untouchable), while Faith was a rival who dared to question Buffy's authority. Sadly we had one more thing Buffy eventually got away with.

[Dee]

I love Empty Places, but I hate that it's invalidated in the very next episode.

[Halting Hex]

To be fair, neither of the vampires (or Anya) ever stole Buffy's body and planned on never giving it back.  So perhaps Faith's a more personal violation.  Selfish, yes, but IMO understandable.

[Halting Hex]

Especially as you know that "I love you" "Spike" was almost certainly meant to soothe any Spuffy 'shippers who may have been put off by the earlier "cookie dough" speech to Angel.  Geez, Joss was straddling the fence so hard between his vampire 'ships, it's a wonder he didn't scrape his butt-crack raw…

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, Dee said:

I love Empty Places, but I hate that it's invalidated in the very next episode.

That Buffy would have been cast out for longer?