S2.E02: Obedience

[Quilt Fairy]

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A secret marriage brings scandal to court, giving Cromwell the chance to bring his adversary Norfolk down for good. 

US air date: March 30, 2025

[Quilt Fairy]

This episode took some odd turns I didn't see coming.  Especially Cromwell going all sobbing and stuttering while proposing marriage to Wolsey's illegitimate daughter.  I have not read the books, is there any evidence this occurred? 

Also, I'm confused about Jane Seymour.  In the first series she was portrayed as simple (in the sense of "uncomplicated") but hardly stupid.  Now even the King, who supposedly loved her, is calling her a simpleton. 

Edited Monday at 03:50 AM by Quilt Fairy

[Driad]

I wish the characters would address each other by name more often. There are so many characters that it's hard to keep track of them.

[cardigirl]

Apparently, Wolsey had a daughter and a son, but there is no evidence that Cromwell proposed marriage to her.  He did give her money from Wolsey's estate so she could maintain herself. I think the proposal was a fictional device from Hillary Mantel (author).  

We know where this is going, but I was surprised to see Cromwell think it a good idea to have a ring made for the Lady (or is she princess again yet?) Mary. Leave it to Henry to take credit for it and give it to her himself.

[sugarbaker design]

The Mirror And The Light is a novel. This is a TV dramatization of the novel. Incidentally the script writer just won an Oscar for Conclave. I've read the book, while it's not in the same league as Wolf Hall and Bring Up The Bodies, it's still worth reading. Cromwell is endlessly fascinating, made even more fascinating by Rylance's performance. 

But what compelled me to read on was the cast of strong-willed, defiant women in Henry VIII's orbit. After reading TM&TL I ran to the library for more info about Lady Margaret Douglas, Jane Boleyn and Margaret Pole. I will continue to watch TM&TL to watch these brave women continue to be a thorn in Henry's side.

[Quilt Fairy]

On 3/31/2025 at 11:19 AM, sugarbaker design said:

The Mirror And The Light is a novel. This is a TV dramatization of the novel.

I understand that, but it's still based (however loosely) on real people and real events.  That's why I asked if there was any evidence in the historical record that Cromwell proposed to (or even had a thing for) Wolsey's daughter.   If he had said, "I will make you my ward and find you a husband" it would have made more sense to me. 

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I wish the characters would address each other by name more often. There are so many characters that it's hard to keep track of them.

Especially after a 10 year interlude when some of them are now played by different actors!

Edited Yest. at 02:07 AM by Quilt Fairy

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Especially after a 10 year interlude when some of them are now played by different actors!

I was talking about this very thing in the first episode thread! In addition to casting new actors, new actors look like they've aged 10 years, when only a few months have gone by since the first season's finale! Especially Lady Rochford! She looks like an actual hag now.

My anal self counted how many characters were recast--6. Unless I missed someone.

Since this is the episode where we got the new Queen asking Cromwell if one should enjoy sex in order to actually birth children (that's what it sounded like to me, even though she admitted her sister has two, and said sister didn't like the "marriage bed" so there you go), I couldn't help but compare it to The Tudors (yes, a horrible, soap-opera-ish show), where Jane Seymour was portrayed as someone who actually...cared/loved that fat arse. But this is Henry VIII, and it IS the 16th century...

And if Show won't have the characters refer to who they are speaking with by their name, the least PBS/BBC can do is let the viewers know in the closed captioning who is speaking!

[sugarbaker design]

12 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I understand that, but it's still based (however loosely) on real people and real events.  That's why I asked if there was any evidence in the historical record that Cromwell proposed to (or even had a thing for) Wolsey's daughter.   If he had said, "I will make you my ward and find you a husband" it would have made more sense to me. 

I just can't see how there can be documentation of a conversation between 2 people, it'd turn into a he said/she said situation.

FWIW, I don't think Cromwell had a thing for Dorothea. Feeling guilty about missing the Cardinal's last days, Cromwell was offering his beloved mentor's illegitimate daughter a chance of married respectability, comfortable living and vast wealth.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

I just can't see how there can be documentation of a conversation between 2 people, it'd turn into a he said/she said situation.

FWIW, I don't think Cromwell had a thing for Dorothea. Feeling guilty about missing the Cardinal's last days, Cromwell was offering his beloved mentor's illegitimate daughter a chance of married respectability, comfortable living and vast wealth.

Yes, I didn't get the feeling that Cromwell felt much affection for Dorothea who he barely knew; but he felt indebted to Wolsey who was his mentor and gave him his start to great power and wealth and offered marriage to her out of respect for her father and a desire to return his favor to him.

[jschoolgirl]

14 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

any evidence in the historical record that Cromwell proposed to (or even had a thing for) Wolsey's daughter.

There is not.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Especially Lady Rochford! She looks like an actual hag now.

Lady Rochford is played by a different actress, and they got someone who is obviously much older.  I wish they had gotten Jessica Raine again, she was awesomely bitchy, and even though she has aged 10 years IRL since the first series, I doubt she looks as old as this new woman. 

I originally didn't care for the new actor playing the Papal ambassador, but he's grown on me. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

23 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Lady Rochford is played by a different actress, and they got someone who is obviously much older.  I wish they had gotten Jessica Raine again, she was awesomely bitchy, and even though she has aged 10 years IRL since the first series, I doubt she looks as old as this new woman. 

Exactly. Like I posted upthread, and apologies if I wasn't clear-I knew they had recast the role, but they recast her with someone who looks older, when only a few months have passed in Show Time.