S08.E04: Listen

[LadyArcadia]

It didn't. The progress of the soldier went toy box in the home -->Rupert --> Orson --> Clara -->young Doctor in the past. We may find out later on that one of the TARDIS crew travelled back to the home to leave the soldier there, but it's path is clear as it is.

 

"Timey-Whimey Wibbly-Wobbly"

[paramitch]

Grammaeryn, I'm also really tired of the Doctor's weird fat jokes at Clara. There's a difference between Twelve not flirting with her and his name-calling like a kid. (Plus the whole un-PC body weirdness aspect--JLC is simply not fat, nor does she have a "wide face," etc.)

 

"Fear makes companions of us all." Said by the 1st Doctor to Barbara during their first adventure, when they'd been thrown together against their wills and had been riven by conflict, yet had to work together in order to escape and survive. It was an important bonding moment in that important first adventure - a moment when the proud, supercilious Doctor finally bent to meet his frightened human companions in the middle, a moment when the differences between them became less important than the shared danger that united them, the first glimpse of who that proud old man might really be, behind his bluster and arrogance.

 

I've never seen that episode, but I love your description of it, and appreciate that it was referenced in the episode. I'm just sorry that yet again Moffat has Clara literally feeding the Doctor his own lines, motivations and moments. I really disliked the cheap switch of the ending of Clara being the source of the fear. Which still doesn't work -- the Doctor is certainly not feeding the world his dreams and nightmares of the past millennia. Not least: Who wrote "Listen"--?

Also, it was actually scary. I can't even remember the last time I was scared at a tv show or movie, but when that bed sank in? I was live-tweeting and went immediately to ALL CAPS and then when the bedsheet ghost started moving I was all OH NO OH NO.

The scene with the thing under the blanket scared the pure crap out of me, in a visceral, childish way that I haven't felt in a long time. Just masterfully suspenseful. Until, of course, somehow it didn't matter and had no bearing on the rest of the story. GAH.

 

I am irked by the fact that Moffat evidently thinks 20 minutes of irrelevant passive-aggressive dating unpleasantness with Clara is more important viewing than the mysterious cosmic adventures of the show's 2,000 year-old time-traveling title character.

 

And the thing is, he does tell good stories, most of the time - but he always has to push it just that little too far, add that final twist. He believes that bigger is always better. Me, I tend to believe that less is sometimes more.

 

This. A thousand times this.

 

See, for me it has the opposite effect.  Being the Doctor's companion is something you're either all-in for or not at all.  I can't relate to somebody who has the opportunity to travel virtually anywhere in time and space and decides to balance that with her personal life as though being the companion were some kind of work study job she got so she could afford tuition at school.  Whenever she uses the Tardis to get to a date on time or whatever, it's like a record needle scratching.  I want to see Donna Noble agape with wonder.  If it's not engaging enough for Clara to even devote her full attention -- if picking the right cocktail dress is more important -- then why should I bother watching?

This is how I feel as well, and in fact that's been my main problem with every one of Moffat's Companions save for Rory. Amy and Clara have both shared this exasperated sort of bullying attitude toward the Doctor, as if he's a weird child and not an alien being, and to me it's not cute, it's disrespectful and crass, as if they're trying to rob the Doctor of what makes him magical and interesting. They want him mortal and small and ordinary -- and biddable. I miss the sense of wonder and joy that most other Companions brought to the show and it's why I can't warm to Clara.

 

For me it's as if Clara liked cute, popular Eleven (and crushed on him), but now he's Twelve -- geeky and weird and (OMG) old, he's not quite as acceptable, so she really has better things to do.

 

I'm torn. On one hand, I'm really interested in Gallifrey. I'd love to know what kind of culture creates a being like The Doctor. On the other, seeing any character's childhood changes the way you perceive them and since in this case we're already dealing with new versions of everything, it seems like a bad idea.

 

For me, the little glimpses have been most successful -- the little flashes back to Gallifrey and the Master's childhood in S3 -- I thought they were visually so beautiful, and Murray Gold's themes were gorgeous. But I really don't want a further systematic exploration/demystification of the Doctor's childhood. I prefer just the mysterious little bits around the edges, like the paintings in "Day of the Doctor."

 

Benteen, I can't believe Moffat actually said, "Clara has her own Doctor now, and she becomes the main character…" This vision is precisely what has felt so off to me this season. They might as well have said "Peter Capaldi's the new Doctor this season! But don't worry, he's not in it that much."

 

I just don't see how the show is focusing more on the Companion with Clara compared to other new who companions. The only difference right now is the Doctor is not sure of himself. He's the mystery this year. Clara last season was kind of not a main character but Amy, Donna and Rose sure were main characters.

 

I don't agree. When the show did focus on Donna, or Rose, or Martha, it showed us moments of life away from the Doctor but they always offered rich subtext on what that life on the TARDIS meant to them. So even in the scenes where the Doctor wasn't there, his presence was felt. Yet many times with Clara (and Amy previously), the story has followed them on tangents not because of how they fit with the Doctor's story, but as if their ordinary lives were the main story. I just think it's a waste and that there are better ways to enrich the characters for us.

 

I just meant, that if you aren't a fan of Moffat then why want to waste your time? Just have the show close with Tennant leaving (which I meant as an if the show isn't renewed after Moffat) or to wait for a new show runner. Moffat's who has been the same since he had Jack and 9 man upping over a gun and a Banana. The Doctor did seem to come out better in that episode (which is one of my all time favorite stories) but Moffat has been the same from the beginning.

 

First off, I think Moffat is a great writer, and I love many of his episodes from seasons 1-4.5. But as a showrunner, his stories are less satisfying to me, and I often feel that he cuts corners or "cheats" outcomes, and worst of all, retcons or rewrites the show's rules (including those he came up with). And I definitely think he has difficulties writing women who aren't very specific 'types' or tropes.

 

But I keep watching because there's still plenty to love. I don't think Who is "bad" right now. It's beautifully produced and acted, and there's always a wonderful moment or two in each episode for me, even the weaker ones. And I watch because I love the show, that it is this one show that can scare me, make me laugh, cry, and ponder. And because, occasionally there will be a really beautiful, satisfying episode that epitomizes the humanity and beauty of it for me. And in the meantime, there are always moments, usually lots of them, that are funny, smart, scary, and that make me think. 

Edited September 27, 2014 by paramitch

[ketose]

I think the part-time companion syndrome ties into the new found ability of the Doctor to pinpoint where and when he lands. One of the reasons companions couldn't just leave in the original Who is that the TARDIS would be pulled off course by some special event or he would miss the target by years when companions did talk about going home. Companions really are like the viewer now. They can tune the Doctor out until he comes to get them and they'll be home by dinner.

[Guest]

I like the fact that Clara seems to be the focus of at least half the episodes we've had so far. The Doctor is a mystery, to himself and to us, so we must relate to him through Clara. She has a job she likes, and awkward moments on dates like a normal human being. 

 

Having that the inclusion of Clara's personal life was hardly boring in this episode - she met her descendant and found out about her future with Rupert all because of the Tardis. When I think of all the Jackie and Mike scenes we endured because of Rose, I don't mind Clara's date at all. 

 

The companions being in awe and disbelief (especially where Martha was concerned) had always rubbed me the wrong way. It's almost as if the Doctor was some Messianic figure, or a figure who was unapologetic after seriously affecting all of their personal lives.

 

If the companion is interested in the life of the Doctor it is because she has a bond with him. That bond comes from mutual interest in each other. Lines like 'Who were you having dinner with?' make sense to me because for the Doctor everyone is important (Donna Noble). The show cares about Clara's life, because the Doctor cares about Clara's life.

Edited October 11, 2014 by lovedwallflower

[paramitch]

The show cares about Clara's life, because the Doctor cares about Clara's life.

 

 

I disagree with this. I don't think the Doctor does care about her life to that extent (he's much more about the forest versus the trees), and dramatically, for me the Companion-focus works because of the feeling both ways -- from Companion to Doctor, as well as from Doctor to Companion.

 

My problem with the focus on Clara's life and dates is that it still managed to tell me nothing about who she is as a person, much less why she travels with the Doctor at all. I found her dates unpleasant, her attitude really smug and unlikable, and her continued treatment of the Doctor as this weird pain-in-the-ass in the sidelines that she barely accommodates disappointing.

 

I just don't know her as a character, except that she's pretty and "plucky!" I don't even have a sense that she's a great teacher or an especially nice person, and for instance, imagine a few scenes that show her really engaged as a great teacher, or if in some ways, her travels with the Doctor were subtly informing how she opened students' minds to the wonders of the universe... So if the show were going to concentrate on her life, I wish it would show us moments that matter -- what is her relationship with her remaining family? What kind of teacher is she? What does she dream of? etc.

 

For example, with Rose, I got a definite sense of this girl who was dolefully living far under her potential both in her relationships and in her work as a "shopgirl." She didn't think she mattered. So I loved the way life with the doctor gave her access to thoughts and dreams she had never allowed herself before. In a similar way, the Doctor gave Captain Jack the company he had sought, gave Martha an example of a "Doctor" on the grandest scale, Donna gave him a friend to laugh and spar with, and Amy and Rory gave him a family. All those personal notes and character graces mattered to me and made me care about them. I also loved seeing the Doctor through all those disparate eyes.

 

But I get nothing from Clara's viewpoint. She doesn't like or admire the Doctor; she barely tolerates him. The ironic part is that I did get a definite sense of character from Oswin, her doomed predecessor, and I still wish that girl had been the one who had been somehow saved. I get nothing from Clara except an increasing sense that now that the Doctor is old now, she wants nothing to do with him.

 

I might even be okay if Pink were an awesome guy (for instance, I was never a huge Amy fan, but my love for Rory made her bearable to me). But aside from being a beautiful guy, I don't much like Pink either. I know he's supposed to be unsure of himself but  it's not "cute" to me; instead he comes off as touchy and passive-aggressive and humorless.

 

I guess that's why the ending here was so super-bizarre to me. We keep being shown, over and over again, how vital and important Clara has been to the Doctor's entire existence in retcon after retcon (adding in the huge one here that she infected his very dreams and first nightmares that also affected all of humanity somehow) -- and yet, let's face it, it's all weird overkill considering that Clara doesn't even like the guy anymore.