S03.E08: Beat Me at My Own Game

[paulvdb]

Quote

Ronnie gives Kathy what she wants, but it comes at a steep price. Erik meets Jeremy and comes to a realization. The kids rally to restore a playground.

 

[racked]

Really hate Ty’s new potential love interest who burns her own cds. They’ve been teasing Ty and Annie since season 1 and they actually have a good angsty chemistry. 

Kathy should be more interesting and fun than she is. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Writing your sister a big check (using joint funds) without discussing it with your spouse/significant other first?? Uh uh. I would have killed Ronnie. 

Also, I was super distracted by the way Helen and Erik pronounced produce. PRAH duce. What the…? I’ve only ever said it the way cute fruits and veg/produce guy Jeremy said it - PRO duce. Maybe I’ve been wrong my whole life LOL.

 

[Orcinus orca]

On 7/23/2023 at 10:23 AM, SonofaBiscuit said:

Maybe I’ve been wrong my whole life LOL.

Nope, not according to several sources including this one.  Helen and Erik seem to be using the British pronunciation.

It bugged me as well.

And for all of the harping on "open and honest communication", Ronnie seemed to do a lot of underhanded stuff.  Didn't he initially go to see Kathy right after Dana Sue specifically told him not to?

Edited July 25, 2023 by Orcinus orca

[CarpeFelis]

The writing on this show is so unrealistic. Ronnie tells Dana Sue he wrote Kathy a check. How many of us would not immediately ask how much? And yet it never came up once in that conversation!

[slayer2]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:12 PM, racked said:

Really hate Ty’s new potential love interest who burns her own cds. They’ve been teasing Ty and Annie since season 1 and they actually have a good angsty chemistry. 

Kathy should be more interesting and fun than she is. 

I like Annie with Jackson. This episode really highlighted for me how deranged this show is about "obeying your elders" no teenager is going to say "I deserved to be punished and I want to follow her rules. First of all Nanny Sue has a crapton of rules foe the world and none for herself. Ugh I cannot stand her as a mother or as a "friend". Maddie finally did something right by Helen by questioning if she was happy and Dotty Sue acted like she was grilling a stranger. She's her best friend that is literally what you are supposed to do.

And her (once again) public screaming at Annie for "lying" to her. Annie didn't lie to you, Jackson is lying to his mother and for good reason, his mother is a dolt. Of Bethy Sue felt is was such an issue she should be sitting down with Jackson's (awful) Mom and making a case for him to see Annie. And the fact that she thinks Annie would want to live next to her harping, screeching, intolerable ass forever? Wild. Just wild.

And don't get me started on Noreen's holier than though attitude with Bill. Honey, you're a homewrecker, just because Maddie has grace and mean you deserve it. Bill may be a dolt but he is Rebecca's father and he has rights. If you don't like that you should have slept with a married man unprotected.

[Sailorgirl26]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:19 PM, slayer2 said:

Honey, you're a homewrecker, just because Maddie has grace and mean you deserve it. Bill may be a dolt but he is Rebecca's father and he has rights. If you don't like that you should have slept with a married man unprotected.

Can we PLEASE stop blaming single women for married men's bad behavior? (Or any woman for any man's behavior for that matter?)

The ONLY person who "wrecked the home" was the person living in it with his spouse. 

I don't recall whether it was the premise here, but men--married or not--will say whatever they need to if they want to get laid. Bill is a slime. He probably told her that he was separated, getting divorced, etc., and most young women who haven't had a lot of life experience will believe it. 

She didn't tie him up and force him to have sex with her. She wasn't the married one. She didn't lie and go against promises made to another person. 

Women. Are. Not. Responsible. For. The. Decisions. Of. Men.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[Orcinus orca]

7 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Women. Are. Not. Responsible. For. The. Decisions. Of. Men.

But women are responsible for their own decisions.  She knew he was married, she knew his wife and kids.  She presumably knows about birth control. She presumably has a modicum of common sense.

To quote Matthew Crawley in Downton Abbey:   “Married men who wish to seduce young women, always have horrid wives”.  If Noreen was stupid enough to fall for that story she's a ninny and should own up to it.

[Sailorgirl26]

4 hours ago, Orcinus orca said:

But women are responsible for their own decisions.  She knew he was married, she knew his wife and kids.  She presumably knows about birth control. She presumably has a modicum of common sense.

To quote Matthew Crawley in Downton Abbey:   “Married men who wish to seduce young women, always have horrid wives”.  If Noreen was stupid enough to fall for that story she's a ninny and should own up to it.

My response was directed toward the "she's a homewrecker" comment and the blame being laid at her feet and absolving the married male character of any responsibility or accountability for the breakdown of his relationship.

This is not about her decision-making process. No matter what decisions or choices she made, she was not the one "wrecking the home." That lies solely with the person who was in the home. 

To blame her for it is wrong. She was not the one betraying vows, nor was she cheating on a partner with whom she was involved in any way, shape, or form. 

The blame needs to be put where it belongs. Full stop. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[Orcinus orca]

On 8/7/2023 at 8:50 PM, Sailorgirl26 said:

The blame needs to be put where it belongs. Full stop. 

I agree.  And the blame is to be shared equally.  If a person, male or female, enters into a relationship with a married person knowing full well that it will destroy the marriage, both are home wreckers and both are responsible for their actions.  No one is blameless in those situations.

[Sailorgirl26]

10 hours ago, Orcinus orca said:

I agree.  And the blame is to be shared equally.  If a person, male or female, enters into a relationship with a married person knowing full well that it will destroy the marriage, both are home wreckers and both are responsible for their actions.  No one is blameless in those situations.

Disagree--the only way the blame is equal is if both parties are involved in other relationships. In this case, only one person was in a relationship. The other was not and thus is not responsible for "wrecking a home."  The blame belongs on the cheater. The single person is not cheating on anyone. 

Cheaters are going to cheat. If it wasn't this character he would have cheated with someone else. And probably did.

Who cheated and wrecked a home boils down to who was in a relationship and who was not. He was; she wasn't. He cheated; she didn't. She didn't wreck a home; he did. 

I repeat my original comment. We need to stop blaming women for the bad behavior of men. If men care about their marriages and relationships, then don't cheat. That is 100% on them, not the woman they cheat with. Why is it the woman's responsibility to keep his behavior in check?  

We have got to stop perpetuating this "boys will be boys and it's a woman's place to keep them in line" nonsense. No. Just....no. 

Women don't "ask for it" with what they wear. Being nice to a man is not "flirting." Not all conversations are invitations to sex. And even when the flirtation is real, men have agency to say no. Whether they choose to walk away or pursue is, again, 100% on them. 

What do women need to do? Step up and call out this patriarchal bullshit. That's the story we need to see told in shows like this. And every show.

And it could be argued that we did see it in this show because Maddie realized Bill would have cheated with anyone, Noreen was simply the one who fell for his nonsense, just like she did. And instead of blaming Noreen and holding her responsible for his behavior, she blamed the actual person responsible. As she should have. 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[Chickabiddy]

If a woman or a man...if anyone knowingly gets involved with a married person, he or she is equally to blame for wrecking the married person's home. The single person may not be guilty of cheating on their own partner, but they are guilty of aiding and abetting the cheating spouse in their unethical behavior. The single person, male or female, is as much of a shit heel as the cheating spouse because he or she knows the potential consequences of the behavior.

Noreen needs to own her shit. She could have refused Bill's advances. He probably would have moved on to find another accomplice, but at least she would not have had a part in it. She would not be a single mom struggling to support her baby and navigate baby daddy issues. 

Again, this is not about punishing women. This is about holding both parties involved in adultery equally responsible for their actions. If you sleep with a married person who, in the eyes of the law, "belongs" to someone else, it is the same immoral act as taking a car that doesn't belong to you for a joy ride. It's still wrong even if you say you don't have your own car at home. 

Another analogy - if you help someone commit murder, it doesn't matter f you did the killing. Your sentence will still be pretty stiff for aiding and abetting the crime. And again, it doesn't matter if you are married or not.  

[Orcinus orca]

On 8/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Noreen was simply the one who fell for his nonsense,

And is thus responsible for her actions.  She has a brain, she ostensibly knows right from wrong. If it was "true love" then she should have waited until Bill was divorced. Instead she willingly entered an affair and then stupidly became pregnant.  She does not deserve a pass on any of this.

Another analogy  if -someone is illegally stealing money from a relative's bank account and the partner knows all about it, doesn't say anything because it's a relation of the first party so why get involved, and helps spend it, is the partner exempt from any guilt? You play, you pay no matter what your sex.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Orcinus orca

[Sailorgirl26]

6 hours ago, Orcinus orca said:

And is thus responsible for her actions.  She has a brain, she ostensibly knows right from wrong. If it was "true love" then she should have waited until Bill was divorced. Instead she willingly entered an affair and then stupidly became pregnant.  She does not deserve a pass on any of this.

Another analogy  if -someone is illegally stealing money from a relative's bank account and the partner knows all about it, doesn't say anything because it's a relation of the first party so why get involved, and helps spend it, is the partner exempt from any guilt? You play, you pay no matter what your sex.

For the last time, while I recognize the point you are trying to make, the point I'm  making is not about Noreen's decisionmaking. It's about blaming a woman for wrecking a home when she wasn't the one responsible for keeping that home and relationship together. Those are two different things. 

We clearly disagree. Best to leave it at that. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[slayer2]

On 8/7/2023 at 8:58 AM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Can we PLEASE stop blaming single women for married men's bad behavior? (Or any woman for any man's behavior for that matter?)

 

No. Noreen shouldn't have slept with a married man. Period. She doesn't get sympathy or credit because he treated her as shoddily as he treated his wife.

On 8/7/2023 at 8:50 PM, Sailorgirl26 said:

My response was directed toward the "she's a homewrecker" comment and the blame being laid at her feet and absolving the married male character of any responsibility or accountability for the breakdown of his relationship.

 

 

 

I didn't lay the blame at her feet, I've been clear that Bill Is a twat, but she knew that when she slept with him because only a twat would have slept with her. None of those things invalidate his rights as a father. Pretending to be shocked at how he ignores his son because she expected him to treat her their family different than his own is myopic, hypocritical and foolish. 

[Sailorgirl26]

46 minutes ago, slayer2 said:

No. Noreen shouldn't have slept with a married man. Period. She doesn't get sympathy or credit because he treated her as shoddily as he treated his wife.

Again, not about her decision making. She did not wreck the home. He did. It was his home, his relationship. He wrecked it, not her. 

[slayer2]

On 8/19/2023 at 6:18 PM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Again, not about her decision making. She did not wreck the home. He did. It was his home, his relationship. He wrecked it, not her. 

Nope. It's 2023, Adults are responsible for adult behaviour. I shudder to think of a world where women who sleep with other women's husbands feel entirely absolved of responsibility.

Women are adults, we can take responsibility for our choices good and bad, we don't need to blame others when we make bad choices and they don't turn out how we want (as was the case with Noreen).

We don't need to hold others responsible for our poor judgment nor the cruelty we gleefully took part in (one of the things Noreen complained about to Bill about was that he didn't leave his wife and family for her like he said he would). We as women don't need to infantalize ourselves to obfuscate accountability in 2023.

[Sailorgirl26]

16 hours ago, slayer2 said:

Nope. It's 2023, Adults are responsible for adult behaviour. I shudder to think of a world where women who sleep with other women's husbands feel entirely absolved of responsibility.

Women are adults, we can take responsibility for our choices good and bad, we don't need to blame others when we make bad choices and they don't turn out how we want (as was the case with Noreen).

We don't need to hold others responsible for our poor judgment nor the cruelty we gleefully took part in (one of the things Noreen complained about to Bill about was that he didn't leave his wife and family for her like he said he would). We as women don't need to infantalize ourselves to obfuscate accountability in 

 A single woman's decisionmaking--right, wrong, or otherwise, is not responsible for the wreckage of a home that is not hers, nor a relationship in which she is not a party. She is not responsible for his bad decisionmaking that caused his relationship and home to dissolve. 

We very clearly disagree--you're comparing apples and oranges--and it's time for both of us to move on.