Season 5 Speculation WITH Spoilers (US)

[ElizaD]

This article is the first time I've seen Edith's baby called Marigold. I'm not quite sure what to think about it, but in general a flower name seems appropriate since Violet and Rosamund were the ones who knew about the pregnancy.

[ZoloftBlob]

Bleh... I hate the name. But then, Edith can't have nice things, now can she?

[ZulaMay]

So this is what they filmed today up at Alnwick:

 

Mary gets driven up to a fortress-like stone structure (I think it might be part of the castle) that says "HMP York" over it.  She gets out of the car and walks in through the gate alone.

 

HMP stands for "His Majesty's Prison" in the UK.  Many (maybe even most) are still called that.

 

So…..who is she visiting?

[NotBothered]

So this is what they filmed today up at Alnwick:

 

Mary gets driven up to a fortress-like stone structure (I think it might be part of the castle) that says "HMP York" over it.  She gets out of the car and walks in through the gate alone.

 

HMP stands for "His Majesty's Prison" in the UK.  Many (maybe even most) are still called that.

 

So…..who is she visiting?

Interesting.  I'm hoping it's Bates, because I am in the camp that thinks he's been acting awfully suspicious ever since Vera.  Following the most recent preview,  I'm thinking that it's more likely to be Tony.  Mary chooses the person she thinks is appropriate - the rich upper class man with social standing - and he turns out to be a creep. Or maybe that is just wishful thinking, because if I have to pick Tony or Blake, I pick Blake.

 

Am I the only one who thinks it looks like there's some sort of fire in that shot of Thomas? 

Edited August 5, 2014 by NotBothered

[DeepRunner]

Mary gets driven up to a fortress-like stone structure (I think it might be part of the castle) that says "HMP York" over it.  She gets out of the car and walks in through the gate alone.

HMP stands for "His Majesty's Prison" in the UK.  Many (maybe even most) are still called that.

So…..who is she visiting?

I have seen a still (allegedly) of Season 5 that shows Bates with a cop, definitely not a cop from the end of S2. Would they really send Bates up the river...AGAIN???? Season 3 was unmitigated drudgery with the prison story. Ready for something else. I would like to see this resolved in one of three ways:

 

* Molesley did it. Baxter told him that Green made the moves on her and Molesley sent Green aerodynamically toward the Bus O' Justice

 

* Gillingham did it. He confronted Green, who admitted in a cavalier and contemptuous manner that he was only doing what a man does. Gillingham then dragged him to Terminal Tire Track Therapy

 

* Mary did it. She already knew he did it, and took her vengeance on Green for assaulting her lady's maid, fully believing that the justice system would not come after a member of the nobility

[ZoloftBlob]

I always thought Anna did it.

[ZulaMay]

I say Anna.  Mary wouldn't visit Bates in prison by herself, but she would visit Anna.  Anna either did it or she took the fall for Bates so he wouldn't end up hanging.

 

Or Tony.  Tony would be my second choice.   Maybe he killed Greene?  Or killed Blake in a duel?

[spottedreptile]

Anna did it because that would be really, really interesting to have Mrs Bates in prison instead of Mr Bates and it wouldn't be the SAME STORYLINE AGAIN. How clever of the writers! 

[ElizaD]

Another prison storyline? I thought the first one was almost universally disliked. Anna and Bates haven't had a good storyline since season 1, IMO.

 

Am I the only one who thinks it looks like there's some sort of fire in that show of Thomas? 

 

That crossed my mind too, mostly because of the colors in the shot.

[ZulaMay]

The prison story was universally disliked.  Openly so.  It's not like the show doesn't know that, either.  So if we really do get a repeat with a twist, clearly they've just shrugged off the criticism.

[ZulaMay]

Amen to that.

[DeepRunner]

I have seen more (I guess promotional) stills which imply some pretty extensive progress in the Molesley/Baxter relationship. No tonsil hockey or lip unity, but...

 

I am of two minds on this.

 

Mind One:

 

* Molesley deserves some happiness, and probably Baxter, too, and they seem to like each other nice enough, and somewhere in the Downton Universe, people are pulling for this outcome

 

Mind Two:

 

* Come on, it's Molesley. Does that guy EVER catch a break? Does that guy ever DESERVE a break? He has been the Downstairs Butt Monkey for soooooooooooo long. Why break the type?

 

In S1, they treated him with dignity. S2 through S4 they made him the running gag. If he has happiness, great, perfect. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by DeepRunner

[ZulaMay]

I don't care for Moseley.  I know I should feel sorry for him but he's such an obsequious little mouse, playing his seemingly hopeless game of Servant Chutes And Ladders.  Sometimes I wish he'd just go find another game, one that's worth winning.

 

But that said, if he finds happiness with Baxter, good for him.  Let's just hope they don't suffer the curse of every Downton couple* and be tormented or tragically torn apart within a year.

 

*Except Robert and Cora, my least favorite Upstairs couple.  I don't even dare hope that Cora's little smile at the art dealer in the trailer might lead to an affair. It will probably just be a flirtation and misunderstanding and they'll coo and kiss when it's all over.  UGH.

Edited August 7, 2014 by ZulaMay

[LoquaciousAudacity]

http://parade.condenast.com/325932/parade/downton-abbey-season-5-first-photos-of-the-children/

 

The new Sybbie and George. Goodness, the twins they got to play George look a lot like Dan Stevens to me. That's pretty great casting. Branson with Sybbie makes my heart skip a beat. I hope they get a good storyline this year, and not just Branson being cuckolded by annoying women. 

 

 

[ZulaMay]

Apparently Mabel Lane-Fox might be making an appearance this year, played by Catherine Steadman.   She was filming until mid-July (not sure when she started) and seems to have been working with Tom Cullen (she followed him, the director and a sound guy on twitter at around the time she wrapped.  No one else.  They followed back as well).  She could be playing someone else but Mabel would make sense.

 

Interesting.

 

This was also reported in the Daily Fail, but I suspected she might be filming based on her twitter activity.  Yes, I am sleuthing-obsessed.

Edited August 10, 2014 by ZulaMay

[oceanblue]

The children have aged since we last saw them, I wonder what year we'll be up to when they return?  What year was it when they finished?

[ZoloftBlob]

No, the kids look old, George especially since I think he was an infant the last time we saw him.

 

I don't mind except that it goes to the unreality of Mary. Hear me out. She was what, supposedly 22? in 1912? (and I suspect I am being generous). It's now 11 years later in a country denuded of men, she's a 33 year old widow with an heir who will inherit her estate, in theory she's still damaged goods from the Pamuk incident, but we're all supposed to believe she's the hottest ticket in town and there's at least two, possibly three men all willing to break engagements to be the next Mr. Mary Crawley?

[ZulaMay]

Yes. This is Fellowes writing Mary Crawley.  He's besotted with her and is indulging himself with this Three-Man Onslaught.  And expecting us to all come along for the ride!

 

Well, it is entertaining in some ways.  Like watching the guys on The Bachelorette trying to one-up each other to get the prize's attention.  They're in the show's bubble (in both cases) and she's apparently the only game in town.

Edited August 11, 2014 by ZulaMay

[oceanblue]

I don't remember if the children were in the Christmas special, or if it involved a time jump this year, as it did last year.  If we didn't see them, but they jumped ahead, maybe the kids' ages make sense.  By the time we see them, two years could have passed.

[ZulaMay]

We didn't see the kids in the Christmas Special.  So it makes sense they would be older by now.  Quite a while has passed since we last saw them.

[ZoloftBlob]

Yes. This is Fellowes writing Mary Crawley.  He's besotted with her and is indulging himself with this Three-Man Onslaught.  And expecting us to all come along for the ride!

 

Well, i don't mind, per se, it's just a bit unbelievable . Not that Michelle Dockery isn't pretty or anything but she's not that much of a catch from a historical perspective. Like I said, all the boys in 1924 are not going to be looking for widows in their mid thirties with children in tow.

 

Mind you, I think it's perfectly in character for Mary to be handling a three man assault on her purity six months after Matthew's death. ;) She's not one to mourn forever. :)

[NotBothered]

So this round of shooting has been pretty spoilery.  Looks like ITV is getting in on the WWI centennial with the War Memorial dedication.  It also looks like Edith has her daughter with her by the end of the season and that Mary is either married or still wearing Matthew's ring (I can't remember if we've seen it in other filming, or if we've only gotten shots of her with gloves on).  Bates also does not appear to be in prison and is still alive.  Sadly.  

Edited August 12, 2014 by NotBothered

[sunflower]

Is it a coincidence that Tom is sitting next to Edith? Hmm?  I'm torn with spoiling myself, but it's hard to wait for January knowing it's all out there.  I remember how shocked i was with Sybil's death, and just typing Downton in Google spoiled me for Matthew's death.  

[NotBothered]

Reviews of the first episode are coming in.  Looks like that was a shot of Thomas during a fire in that preview.  It also sounds like that speculation of Mary potentially sleeping with one of her two suitors prior to marriage is accurate.  My (likely wrong) guess at the moment is that Mary is caught in a compromising position with Tony and is forced to marry him (because times haven't changed that much).  We'll then find outselves in a divorce situation, or a "they live seperately" type situation.  In the first season I used to check off which Upstairs, Downstairs (the original, not the remake) plots they had checked off.  I feel like the big classics we haven't seen yet are divorce and a marriage-in-name-only, and Mary seems the prime candidate for either or both.

[ZulaMay]

In the scene with Tony in the trailer, Mary is definitely not wearing her ring.  There are two shots of a ringless hand.  I don't have them but several people have confirmed it.  So there is a question as to what's up with the ring?  It could just be an inconsistency, of course.  But your theory sounds plausible.  Mary told Tony she would not be his mistress and she cares very much what people think.  She flat-out said it to Matthew in the S2 CS.  I imagine Tony cares too.

 

As to Tom and Edith, I don't read much into them sitting next to each other.  The whole family is sitting together with their children. I can't really read a romantic vibe into it.  Although you never know.  Tom and Edith could be the marriage-in-name-only plot line.  Probably complicated by some other romantic interest down the road.

 

I suppose I'd have to check to see if Edith is wearing a ring in any of HER pics.  The sleuthing never ends.

 

Since this is the spoiler thread, here it goes:  Edith starts the fire.  Accidentally, of course.  That scene where she is in tears and tosses her book aside?  I guess it lands in the fire.  And they have to rush to get everyone out.  I am seriously disgusted by this.  Once again, Edith is the butt monkey.  And I know Mary will be merciless.  She never got angry with Robert at all for his terrible misjudgment regarding Sybil, but she'll tear Edith to shreds regarding an unfortunate mistake (that as far as we can tell doesn't kill anyone).  I can see it now.

 

 

http://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/what-s-on/stars-shooting-downton-abbey-in-alnwick-again-today-1-6773822

 

 

This is the only late-season picture of Edith's hand that I can find. As far as I can tell she's not wearing a ring.  You have to squint to see Mary's, but it's there.  Edith is a bit further away but I don't see any glint of gold.  Nor have I seen anyone mention spotting one on her.  And they manage to spot a lot!

Edited August 14, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Kirsty]

The reviews say there's a fire at Downton in the opening episode, and when the building has to be evacuated in the middle of the night, it becomes apparent that someone isn't in the bed they're supposed to be in. Anyone have any idea who this might be? Is Rose not in her bed because she snuck out earlier? Does Thomas finally get some love? Or has JF heard my prayers and Branson is seen emerging from Mary's bedroom? ;)

[NumberCruncher]

The reviews say there's a fire at Downton in the opening episode, and when the building has to be evacuated in the middle of the night, it becomes apparent that someone isn't in the bed they're supposed to be in. Anyone have any idea who this might be? Is Rose not in her bed because she snuck out earlier? Does Thomas finally get some love? Or has JF heard my prayers and Branson is seen emerging from Mary's bedroom? ;)

 

I think it will likely be Jimmy caught in Lady Anstruther's bed chamber.

Edited August 14, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[oceanblue]

Remind me please, who is Lady Anstruther?

[NumberCruncher]

She's who Jimmy worked for before he came to Downton. She was mentioned a few times over the past couple of seasons. She's Anna Chancellor's character.

[DeepRunner]

I have seen one review of the S5 opener that says we will learn about the secret that Thomas the Vampire is blackmailing Baxter with. Intriguing.

[Andorra]

Regarding the age of the children:

 

Last series spreaded from spring 1922 to fall and then the CS was summer 1923. We didn't see the kids in the CS, because if we had they would have needed to cast new kids extra for it.

 

The new series will probably only cover 1924. Start in spring and the CS will be the winter 1924. So Sybbie is almost 4 when the series starts and George 2.5 years old. The actors are 4.5 and 3 years old, so they cast them slightly older to be right in the middle for the whole series and it is easier to work with children the older they get. .

[Brn2bwild]

According to the producers, Mary and Edith will have a rivalry again this year.  Please let Edith get the upper hand this time.

[Avaleigh]

Ideally both sisters will be able to get in their digs. I've always disagreed with the idea that Edith doesn't give as good as she gets (sometimes it's worse in all honesty and I'm not just talking about Pamuk) when it comes to her rivalry with Mary. IMO it won't be fun if one side takes all/most of the hits, so in that sense I'm not wishing for either character to have the upper hand so much as I'd like to see both actresses have fun delivering a reasonably equal amount of snarkiness.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Avaleigh

[NumberCruncher]

Agreed, @Avaleigh.  While Mary certain has plenty of bitchy moments, Edith is far from an angel in that category and has certainly done (and said) some truly horrible things herself.  I just think it only seems like Edith is picked on more because of the peripheral challenges she has faced that have nothing to do with Mary (e.g. having a lover kidnapped by Nazis, being jilted at the altar, getting pregnant out of wedlock, etc.).  TBH, with the exception of the suitor rivalry back in S1, there really hasn't been anything since to suggest that Mary has gained the upper-hand at the expense of Edith's happiness.  Sure, we can feel sorry for how Robert has acted in reaction to her career aspirations and choice in lovers, but that's not really something that her sister caused.  I can dislike Mary's other failings/flaws, but Edith's misfortunes aren't one of them.

 

I expect both of them will continue making the same snide comments to one another like they have for the past 4 seasons.  That's just the kind of relationship they have.

Edited August 20, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Cameltoes]

It's not so much about having an "upper hand" but in the years since the War and, especially, after Sybil's death, Edith has pretty much just avoided Mary. We are supposed to believe that her comment on Mary's wedding day was snarky but it wasn't. She acted exasperated when Mary asked her the favor about the London trip in season 3 but for about 7 years (in Downton time), Mary's been the petty one. Granted, she had good reason to be pissed off about the Pamuk thing but there hasn't been any "fun" even-handed snarkiness between the sisters since season 1. Mary was happily married, the future Countess of Grantham, having overcome potential scandal, had a baby on the way and was just being mean for the sake of being mean. I wish they'd give it a rest. In the season 1, they were barely out of their teens. They are 30-something year old women with children now. It's just ridiculous. I'm not looking forward to it.

[DeepRunner]

I also read that there would be rivalry between the Crawley sisters this year, and I want to see significant Edith pushback in S5. Mary had the typical Mary line in the CS, when she said she would rather sleep on the roof than share a room with Edith. She has often administered the beatdown on Edith. Yes, Edith got some pretty good digs in during S1, especially over Pamuk dude. But Mary has had the upper hand since. I am looking forward to Edith b-slapping Mary in S5 as much as Mary will do likewise.

 

Just an observation...TPTB have ALWAYS preferred Mary to Edith, and I have never understood why they are more sympathetic to the Queen of the Hive than they are to the red-headed stepchild (stoking the Edith-as-Rosamund's-daughter talk). I think, if Edith were to die, they will write it so that Mary will have grieved more for PATRICK Crawley than she will for EDITH Crawley.

[NumberCruncher]

I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing how post-S1 Mary has been getting the upper hand at Edith's expense. Has Mary generally had better luck than Edith? Sure, but Mary's life hasn't exactly been perfect either.

Fellowes has made no secret of believing some people are generally unlucky and that Edith is that kind of character, but all the show's characters have all gone through their struggles. Edith's just happen to be more prevalent but that still doesn't change that the vast majority of them had nothing to do with her sister. So I don't need to see Edith triumph and Mary fall in S5 in order for all to be right with the world because the happiness/success of both sisters at the same time are not mutually exclusive. These two will always have a rivalry, just like most real-life siblings naturally do, and I expect the snarky comments will continue. Edith has every right to respond-in-kind to Mary's snide remarks (and I hope she does) but hopefully both their respective luck/misfortunes will continue to be their own.

I'm much more concerned about going through yet another prison storyline in S5 as the last one with Bates made me want to spork out my eyeballs.

Edited August 21, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Brn2bwild]

What I would like to see is Mary having Edith's back, for once (and vice versa).  She couldn't even bring herself to express sympathy when Gregson disappeared.  Get past the petty rivalry business and start to have a real adult relationship.

[ZoloftBlob]

I'd feel better about the petty rivalry if it was ever explained beyond "Mary is the favorite of her mother and father" and if someone outside the family ever noted how odd it is that in this era, no one seems to care in the slightest that Edith isn't married.

 

Although again its a problem of the show aging while the actors aren't. Edith, like Mary, is now a woman over 30.

 

Personally I do hope she at least holds her own in the upcoming battle. And I hope Mary grows up a little.

[ZulaMay]

There is no rivalry.  Mary won the contest at birth and she knows it.  She has never felt threatened by Edith, just annoyed by her existence.

 

NumberCruncher, I don't feel the need for Mary to "fall" and I agree both sisters can be happy.  It certainly isn't Mary's fault that Anthony left Edith at the altar (it was Robert and Violet's fault).  It's not even her fault that Cora and Robert spoiled and favored her while ignoring and demeaning Edith.  But it is most certainly her fault that she rubs her "superior" status in Edith's face all the time, expects the world to revolve around her and to get what she wants (men, money, status), and continues to treat her sister like a troll to this day.  

 

Edith is not mean to Mary any more, but Mary is nasty to her.  There are numerous examples, and the show (the actresses, the writer) do not even deny this.  It's not equal opportunity nastiness, not after S1.  Edith does not bait her or insult Mary.  She is not insensitive to her troubles as Mary is to hers, particularly with regard to Gregson's disappearance.  For a 30+ woman to make a nasty joke about her sister's missing-maybe-dead boyfriend at the table is almost shockingly horrible.  Mary needs to grow the f**k up and stop acting like a child who needs to be chided and kept in line by the adults in the family.  

 

And has Edith's life been made worse because of her sister?  It actually has.  It's bad enough to be ignored and demeaned in favor of your sister:  to have her kick you when you're down for your entire life makes it that much worse.  Edith's sense of self-worth has been damaged by Mary's treatment of her.  Mary thinks she deserves what she wants, even if she doesn't always get it (and lets face it, in the long run she always gets it).  Mary wouldn't be upset if Edith got what she wanted, but neither does she give a shit if Edith is miserable.  She even enjoys it.

 

Edith has had in ingrained in her consciousness that her happiness is not important, that nothing she does will make her worthy in the eyes of her family.  She still soldiers on, but she's a wounded warrior.  And yes, Mary is partly to blame for that.  She is culpable because she is fully aware of what she's doing.  She knows she's mean to Edith, but she doesn't care at all.  She doesn't try to heal the wounds at all.  She pours salt in them.

Edited August 21, 2014 by ZulaMay

[NumberCruncher]

I don't agree, @ZulaMay, but YMMV and all that.  We can just agree to disagree.  I don't see Edith being a victim at all.  Unlucky, yes...but not a victim.  Regardless of how anyone in her family treats her and the bad luck she encounters beyond that, she's time and time again shown herself to be amazingly resilient.  Anthony jilts her, so what does she do?  She defies her father's wishes, betters herself by becoming a reporter, and succeeds at it beautifully.  She becomes a modern woman.  Michael disappears and she discovers she's pregnant and unwed?  After initially giving up her baby, she decides she's going to find another way to keep her child close to her, regardless of the dangers of having her secret revealed to the world.  So no, I don't see her as a "wounded" creature at all--I see her as strongly forging her own path in a society and a family that would rather keep her shrouded in tradition and propriety.  I want to see more of that Edith in S5, and from the looks of some of the spoiler photos of her holding Marigold, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she says "to hell with propriety--I want my daughter and I don't care who knows it".

[ZulaMay]

She is very resilient but why should she have to be?  The fact is it is wrong for them to treat her that way.  It's not just her bad luck that makes her unhappy, it's how people treat her. When Robert denigrated her journalism efforts (which he did several times) she was clearly hurt by it.  She's hurt when her mother compliments Sybil but not her.  She's hurt when Mary mocks her pain regarding Gregson.

 

She doesn't have a victim mentality at all.  So no, in that sense I agree she's not a victim.  But that doesn't change the fact that she's been mistreated and that her family has done her wrong.  Edith is not happy.  She will keep trying but the fact is she's not.  She told Rosamund "I don't think God wants me to be happy."  Rosamund was the only one who seemed to care about her in S4.  Oh, and Robert, for about two minutes. Too little too late.

 

Robert and Cora could and should have helped her more, tried to find her a husband, praised and encouraged her more; and if they had she would be in a better position and probably be happier.  So while she carries her burdens like a trooper, the fact is a lot of those burdens are their fault.  Bad luck is only part of it.  They failed her and there's no excuse for it at all.  It's not like they had fuck-all to do besides sit around getting dressed and drinking tea.  Cora had one job and she didn't do it.

 

But as you said, YMMV.  The truth is I am glad Edith is not living a settled married life, but instead is having to show strength and embrace the unconventional.  It's a lot more interesting this way and I admire her.  BUT her family sucks donkey balls.  They're abysmal, always have been and apparently always will be.  Mary is widowed and Cora is immediately bringing eligible men to the house for her, even though she's already filthy rich.  Edith gets dumped and Cora is just "oh, being tested makes you stronger."  True, but a little support would be nice.

Edited August 21, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Avaleigh]

I've never had the impression that Mary was Cora's favorite. If anything I think Sybil was Cora's favorite and Mary and Edith are tied in terms of the love and affection they get from their mother. I think Cora, Violet, and Rosamund have all been supportive of Edith at various points so I've never understood the idea that she's some trod upon victim of her family simply because she has a snarky relationship with Mary and because Robert didn't actively go around the country searching for a man who would be willing to marry her. 

 

As far as the snarky relationship not being a two way street since season 1--I totally disagree but obviously mileage varies on stuff like this. I've seen snarkiness from Edith towards Mary in both seasons 3 and 4 and Edith seems to enjoy it when she sees problems in Mary's love life--IMO she's always been this way and is unlikely to change and I think Mary knows this.

 

In terms of Mary vs. Edith it seems like there are two episodes that are repeatedly emphasized when it comes to highlighting the bad behavior of one of the sisters. For people who take issue with Mary, they reference the Christmas Special in season 3 where Mary is being insensitive about Gregson. With Edith it's generally the Pamuk affair and it seems like there is a tendency to write this off because it happened a decade ago within the timeline of the show. Two things that come to mind when I compare these low moments between the sisters. 1) Edith was lucky that the rest of her family never found out what she did and since Edith is so often referred to as the unlucky one I think it's worth pointing out that she really got away with being incredibly mean and vicious and the only one to ever see how low she could go was Mary. 2) In terms of deliberately trying to hurt and ruin a person's future prospects--IMO what Edith did versus Mary's overall insensitivity about Gregson just doesn't even compare when I think about which situation is more damaging. 

 

I personally got the impression that Edith was happy and was rubbing it in Mary's face that Gillingham seemed to have moved on--to me it seemed like the only reason she brought it up was to get a reaction out of Mary. I feel like all of the old feelings have always been between the sisters and I definitely felt the snarkiness on Mary's wedding day whereas Mary was IMO able to rise above the pettiness and genuinely wish Edith well during Edith's near wedding to Gregson. 

 

So while she carries her burdens like a trooper, the fact is a lot of those burdens are their fault.  Bad luck is only part of it.  They failed her and there's no excuse for it at all.

 

 

Robert and Cora did try to help Edith find a husband. That's what having seasons as a debutante was all about and Edith definitely had hers. The problem was the Edith didn't attract any of the eligible men. She wouldn't be the first debutante who didn't end up catching a suitor. It's just not that unusual that some daughters didn't end up getting married for whatever reason. I haven't seen anything to suggest that Robert and Cora didn't do what other parents did--make sure their daughter had the right clothes, attended the right parties, and mixed with the right sort of men. If Edith is blaming her parents for the fact that she isn't married IMO that's unfortunate because I'm really not sure what more they could have done. Mary was the one who developed relationships with the Duke and Evelyn Napier. Mary had her own charm/money/looks to thank for men being interested in her. Violet and Cora only went down the "let's focus on Mary" route when they thought she'd become damaged goods.

[ZulaMay]

I think the tendency of Mary fans is to treat the Pamuk Letter as a trump card that can forever be used to excuse Mary's behavior toward Edith and to paint Edith as more responsible for their animosity.  Well, both the writer and actress disagree with that.  MD has said Mary has always been that mean older sister and that it isn't fair.  They see them as having evened the score.  Mary got her vengeance on Edith already.  If she can't move past it, she's being petty.  She got what she wanted in the end and Edith didn't.

 

As for Mary not telling her parents about what Edith did?  Do you really think that was out of some sense of honor toward her sister?  LMAO, Mary never gave a shit about Edith enough to protect her.  If she told Robert about the letter then he would find out what she did with Pamuk.  She was desperate to keep the truth from him.  Moreover, Edith did not tell her parents about Pamuk either.  She didn't tattle to them.  She didn't write  a letter to a gossip column either.  She wrote a letter to one man, that's it.  And not one likely to spread the rumor either.  So Mary doesn't get brownie points for not tattling about that letter.  She did something worse, which was lie to Anthony and ruin Edith's potential marriage.

 

As for Cora and Violet focusing on finding a husband for Mary after she was "damaged goods"?  What of it?  Both of them got a cotillion.  And after Pamuk, both were considered undesirable.  They had two undesirable sisters on their hands.  And they were all over finding a husband for one of them, but they didn't do fuck-all to help the other.  Mary got their attention when she needed it, and Edith didn't.

 

And no, I don't think Edith has been petty with Mary since S3.  What she said to her on her wedding day wasn't nice, but it was true.  She was being honest.  No, it wasn't the right moment for it but then over Sybil's death bed wasn't the right moment for Mary to be "honest" when Edith offered her an olive branch, either.  That was much worse.

 

As for what she said about Gillingham?  Bear in mind that Edith didn't know Mary was upset about it.  Mary didn't betray any emotion, she just announced it cooly.  She shed a tear and walked away, all with her back turned to Edith.  And it's not reasonable to expect Edith to even think Mary would be upset about it.  Matthew was dead less than a year, and up until a few months earlier Mary had been too catatonic with grief to leave the house.  She and Tony spent some time together at a house party and he seemed keen on her. That was all Edith knew.  

 

She certainly had no reason to suspect that shortly after this house party, Tony had stalked Mary home and proposed to her, nor that Mary had actually considered his proposal and passionately kissed him.  If she knew that I bet she would be every bit as gobsmacked as the viewers were by it.  It's not like she walked in to find Mary in tears over some serious love interest.  All she knew that some guy her recently widowed sister barely knew had gotten engaged.  She knew he seemed to like her, but that was all.  She was expressing surprise, not schadenfreude.

 

Examples of Mary being mean to Edith since S3:  calling Anthony "Poor Old Anthony Strallan," rejecting Edith's olive branch, being a nasty cow about Gregson in the CS, snapping at her to "stop moaning," saying "once again you've gotten the short end of the stick," making a nasty joke about Gregson being missing and maybe dead (that counts for at least five snarky comments), snapping that she'd rather sleep on the roof than share a room with Edith, saying "Edith is about as mysterious as a bucket."  

 

Edith doesn't insult Mary behind her back.  Mary does it to Edith regularly.  As far as I am concerned (and the show too, if you read their comments),  Mary and Edith evened the score in S1 with the letter and the sabotage.  Since then, Mary has wracked up a lot more Nasty Points than Edith has.  

 

But if you like Mary and dislike Edith, you are never going to see it that way so agree to disagree.   I am going based on what I see and hear on screen and what the people involved with the show have actually said.  And on the scorecard.

Edited August 21, 2014 by ZulaMay

[ZoloftBlob]

If Edith is blaming her parents for the fact that she isn't married IMO that's unfortunate because I'm really not sure what more they could have done

 

Well, they could have encouraged Sir Anthony. This is the relationship where yes, she was settling but really, it *is* fair to say that she wasn't getting better offers. On several levels, Sir Anthony was a pretty acceptable husband - he liked her, she liked him, he seemed to have position and money. Yes, she was basically marrying her dad... but as Robert and Violet made Sir Anthony feel like scum for liking her, all I could think was "who exactly do you have waiting for Edith to be available?". This was made worse by the fact that there was a time where Robert and Cora would have jumped for joy if Sir Anthony married *Mary*.

[photo fox]

Guys, this is getting really off-topic.  To discuss prior seasons, please use that thread, and leave this one for discussing spoilers.

[Avaleigh]

I'm responding in the all episodes thread.

[Kirsty]

NumberCruncher, you were right; when a fire breaks out at Downton, Jimmy is caught in Lady Anstruther's bed. And there's Branson carrying both kids out.

 

Who is rescuing what lady during the fire? Maybe it's the Earl carrying his mother out of the house? Or Bates carrying Anna? If only Bates could die in the fire tbh.

 

The trailer certainly makes it look as though Richard E. Grant's character is putting the moves on Cora.

 

Who is Branson kissing? I'm guessing it's that unpleasant schoolteacher.

 

The Earl of Grantham angrily says "Our grandchild is about to be stolen from us forever". I wonder if that means Branson is talking about leaving with his daughter. I don't expect Branson will ever leave, but he was certainly talking about a move to the USA last season.

[ZulaMay]

I think that's Edith being carried out of the fire.  In the earlier ITV trailer where she threw the book you could see the lamp next to her bed, and the lamp in this new clip is the same one in the same place.  Plus it is Edith's room that catches fire, so it would make sense if hers is the one totally engulfed in flames.  They had to burn a room to do this scene and I doubt they'd burn two.

 

Tom is kissing Sarah good-bye in that scene.  They filmed a good-bye scene back in April, in which he kissed her.  Same hat and coat.  A lurker caught it on tape.  We saw the video of her driving away with her suitcases (looking sad) and Tom watching her drive down the street.  He didn't seem the least bit sad in the scene, but she did!  It was taken off Youtube pretty quickly, perhaps at the request/order of the show.  But not before we were able to watch it.

 

I think Andorra still has some pics from the scene, just not that final one.

 

After that the actress went to Romania and then LA for other projects and didn't come back until filming was over.

 

That's Catherine Steadman on the horse in the one clip, who plays Mabel Lane-Fox.  I am excited to see her.  She tweeted she wrapped filming on a "lovely but secret" project in mid-July.  

 

She seems like she could be real competition.  Very pretty, rich, younger, with no other kid or estate on which to spend her fortune.  Plus she rides like a boss in a regular saddle, not sidesaddle.  

 

I wonder why Tony dumped her for Mary?  She must have some fatal flaw....

Edited August 31, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Andorra]

It was said that Thomas does something to ensure the family's gratitude and it helps him getting back into their graces after Baxter told Cora her secret and Cora learns that Thomas blackmails her.

 

So I think Thomas is the one rescuing Edith from the fire. You can see that the rescuer wears a coat similar to Thomas's underbutler livery.

 

Tom kisses Sarah Bunting - eeek.

But it was to be expected and we know it will be their last (and hopefully only) kiss. Thank god.

 

I loved Tom rescuing the children!!

 

I'm curious about Mabel Lane Fox. She seems interesting. Pretty and modern (not riding side saddle). I hope Mary will get real competition for once!!