Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary

[TheGreenKnight]

I wasn't referring just to her relationship with Edith. Cora called her a bully during the whole to-do with Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes' wedding, for instance.

[SusanSunflower]

Mary has had a lifetime of watching Violet wielding the shiv of the "bon mot" ... and children do learn who's got the power in their family, it has always (afaict) been Violet over Cora and Robert and Rosamund  ... Of course, Violet is old and doesn't actually have to live with the residual anger and hurt feelings of her "cleverness."  Real life, real people are hurt when they realize they have no "real" friends... or only friends they've had since childhood (rapidly dying off at Violet's age) -- sometimes they even give up their habitual sharp tongued wit. 

I don't remember Mary being bitchy with Mabel, but I can't remember her interacting with any other people of her own age and set ... Lavinia and Mabel both, my impression, rather "humbled" Mary ... Mabel loved and wanted Tony "anyway" ... and Lavinia had acted bravely against Carlysle to save her father ... 

Edited February 10, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Avaleigh]

They've referred to Mary as a bully on the show, so it's not just an opinion really.

When was Mary called a bully on the show? I can't recall. I remember Mary indirectly calling Larry Grey a bully at the dinner table after he told Edith that she could 'always take a joke'. I remember getting the impression at that moment that Larry was probably a little mean to Edith when they were younger. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Bates: "She's a bit of a bully, your Lady Mary."

Cora: "Because I want you to stop bullying her." / Mary: "You think I'm a bully? I think you're a snob."

Tom: "Like all bullies, you're a coward."

[Roseanna]

... it's the mean spirited or unnecessarily competitive quality that makes the difference... I think Mary crosses the line more often than Edith whose comments usually aren't nearly as sharp or "mean" 

 

Actually Mary is in S1 competive only with Edith. It’s odd because there is no idea to compete with a person whom one always wins. An ambitious person wants to compete at least with equals or better still with superiors.

 

I take as an example S1 ep5 which ends in Edith writing her infamous letter.

 

First, Mary answers to Cora’s words that Edith has “fewer benefits” that her sister has no “benefits at all”.

 

If one wants to interpret Mary’s behavior “kindly”, one must remember that she has just heard from her mother that there are rumors in London that she had lost her virtue and therefore she must marry quickly which had made her of course unhappy and it’s therefore she says of Edith those cruel words (although according to all we know, it’s just what she thinks of her).

 

Of course Mary has no knowledge that Edith hears them – but from Edith’s POV it’s Mary who has challenged her by cruelly belittling her.

 

 

During the dinner Strallan speaks about modernization of agriculture which doesn’t interest Mary (a rather boring subject with a young woman in a dinner table – but the joke was belatedly on Mary who became an agent). Edith notices her chance and shows her interest (whether it ‘s feigned or real, we can’t know, but at least she knows something about the subject). Mary is also happy because she begins to become interested in Matthew. When Strallan chokes after eating salt in his dessert, they laugh together. 

 

When the women are alone, Edith is sorry for Strallan but Mary mimics him, which makes Edith reproach that Mary giggled like a school girl with Matthew which Edith finds pitiable.

 

Now, the incident was funny, but Edith was also right that it wasn’t polite to laugh, especially at one’s guest.  But Mary can’t say either “sorry, it wasn’t good manners to laugh” or “oh come on, have you any sense of humor”.

 

She hits back hard with quite another matter: by telling that Edith’s hope for Matthew is disappointed and when Edith asks who has told her she answers Matthew. She even lets an impression that Matthew has done it on his own initiative whereas actually she asked him, breaking the sisterly solidarity by speaking openly about Edith’s “great hopes”. Also Matthew behaved in an un-gentlemanly way by answering, but one can doubt if he had done so, if he could had anticipated that Mary would use the information in such a cruel way. 

 

Then Cora, evidently trying to sooth the situation, praises Edith that she had helped a lot by caring for Strallan and thus “saved our day”. Edith answers that she enjoyed it and it seems that they have a lot to talk about. She smiles, rises up and walks away. Mary stares, goes after her and asks her stop boasting.

 

It’s hard to understand Mary’s reaction. She doesn’t want Strallan herself, so why can’t she let Edith show openly pleasure - and even glee - that for once she got praise from her mother and for once she could speak in such a manner that a man became interested in her? Most of all, Mary knows she can have a bigger prize, Matthew, if she wants to. 

 

Provoked by Mary, Edith asks gleefully who’s now jealous. That provokes Mary to say that she could have had Strallan if she had wanted. And when Edith says that even Mary can’t have all, she decides to show her.

 

And so Mary charms Strallan – simply to show that she can win Edith. She acts like a small child who can’t stand that her sibling has a small lollipop – she must take it from her even if she doesn’t actually want it and she has a bigger and better one.

 

Also, as Robert says, she is so childish that she believes that she can put away her toy, Matthew, and wait for him to be ready to play with her the next time she chooses. But Matthew is no doormat, he is hurt and leaves early.

 

In the flower show Mary tries to apologizes but Matthew doesn’t accept it.  After that Edith comments that when Matthew wanted Mary, she didn’t want her but now when she wants her, he doesn’t want her and Edith finds that amusing.

 

Now, Edith sees the situation clearly and Mary’s childish behavior is amusing, although it’s heartless from Edith to say and show. But Mary was much more heartless to her in the last evening (revealing what Matthew said of her and charming Strallan).

 

Again, Mary hits back hard with quite another matter by saying that if she wanted to attract a man, she wouldn’t choose such clothes and hats like Edith. 

 

Somebody said that Edith uses “passive-aggressive” tactics. But “passive-aggressive” means that you do something in secret and then you deny you have done it, at least on purpose (f.ex. you on purpose neglect do something and then claim that you forgot it or even deny that you have ever promised to do it).

 

Instead, Edith acts quite openly. The acts that Edith does that “annoy” Mary are: 1) to say that Mary has behaved badly by laughing with Mathew at Strallan’s misfortune 2) to show openly pleasure and glee that her mother praises her and she may finally get a man interested in her 3) to say that Mary can’t have all she wants  4) to be amused when Mary had lost Matthew.

 

What is so bad in these things? The worst thing Edith does is to use pinpricks (some of them true) and openly showing her glee when she herself for once succeeds. Only the fourth incident that happens in the flower show proves real heartlessness, in order to do an unhappy person still more unhappy – but that happens after all Mary has done to Edith, most of all “taken” Strallan from her.

 

However, to Mary Edith’s pinpricks are so grave sins that she must always hit back with a hammer. That shows that she isn’t so sure of her superiority as she claims but she denies it to herself. She must have somebody who is inferior than her. Before all, there is no difference whether she herself is happy (or more clearly, afraid of the scandal but still hoping to become happy with Matthew) or unhappy (after "losing" Matthew because of her own foolish behavior).

 

Where Edith acts or reacts to Mary’s behavior in a certain situation (criticizes her behavior or shows glee), Mary doesn’t answer to only Edith’s words and countenance but raises the quarrel to the higher level where she tries to crush Edith wholly as a person. Mary’s message is always of same kind: you are nothing, you can’t nothing, no man can love you, nobody wants marry you.  

 

When Edith wrote her infamous letter, it was of course morally wrong. But psychologically there was the strongest possible motive:  to revenge on Mary and save the last ounce of her self-esteem in her own (although not other's) eyes by showing that she can, if not win Mary, then at last prevent her winning.

If you treat somebody like a dirt, you can’t be surprised if she stabs you on the back when she is given a chance.  You are foolish to expect solidarity from a person whose human value you have tramped under your feet.

[AndySmith]

Yeah but Edith just bugs, so let Mary hammer away at her to her hearts content.

[skyways]

Lol AndySmith. I watched those scenes recently and the thing is Edith IS/WAS annoying and like a gnat that won't go away.

[ShadowFacts]

I recently re-watched that episode and I've got to say, Mary is so much more odious to me in those scenes than Edith.  As Roseanna pointed out above, Mary must have been feeling insecure to have to strike out at Edith the way she did.  I think she felt very wounded upon hearing from her mother that her reputation was sullied, and that had nothing to do with Edith.  I had forgotten how un-gentlemanly Matthew had been in his comment to Mary about Edith being in for a surprise if she thought he was interested in her.  He is not generally that thoughtless and it served the story to have him say and Mary to repeat it, but it left a bad taste.  I guess everybody puts their foot in their mouth once in awhile.

[AndySmith]

I don't know if it's insecure as much as having a shitty day and oh look here comes Edith...

[Roseanna]

I recently re-watched that episode and I've got to say, Mary is so much more odious to me in those scenes than Edith.  As Roseanna pointed out above, Mary must have been feeling insecure to have to strike out at Edith the way she did.  I think she felt very wounded upon hearing from her mother that her reputation was sullied, and that had nothing to do with Edith. 

 

It's indeed the "kindest" explanation that Mary was deeply hurt after the discussion with Cora. We may be feel that Cora was harsh towards her daughter, but in her time she was only practical and tried to save what could be saved by insisting that Mary must marry swiftly.  

But Mary who was later called practical by Matthew (and who indeed showed that quality by accepting Sybil marriage once it was done) was far from practical. If she had been, she would have continued to charm Matthew and they would have married soon. Strallan would have married Edith who wouldn't probably have sent the letter. But then then there wouldn't have no plot.

 

I think that the trouble with Mary was that after thinking herself "superior" and entitled to have "all", she simply couldn't accept that she had herself ruined her chances "to pick and chose" by sleeping with a man she had just met (yes, to us it was a rape or at least a sexual harassment, but Mary and Cora didn't see it as such), at least after the story had somehow leaked out.            

[TheGreenKnight]

To me, that episode is still hilarious after all these years just because we get to watch Mary be an asshole to everyone--Strallan, Edith, and Matthew all in one fell swoop. Although Edith writing the letter about Pamuk at the end is undeniably wrong, I couldn't help cheering after what a loser Mary was the entire episode. If the whole family was ruined, at least Edith's status would finally be a little higher than Mary's--then Mary would know what it feels like to be at the bottom of the totem pole in their family.

[Roseanna]

To me, that episode is still hilarious after all these years just because we get to watch Mary be an asshole to everyone--Strallan, Edith, and Matthew all in one fell swoop. Although Edith writing the letter about Pamuk at the end is undeniably wrong, I couldn't help cheering after what a loser Mary was the entire episode. If the whole family was ruined, at least Edith's status would finally be a little higher than Mary's--then Mary would know what it feels like to be at the bottom of the totem pole in their family.

 

Well, I didn't find it hilarious, except the scene with Cora where Mary's voice is oh-so-tragic ("I am a lost cause").

 

Plus, I am beginning to find quite hilarious when I realize watching again how the audience was made sympathize with Mary because she suffered, even wept, oh-so-beautifully. Instead, Edith seemed even uglier than usual when she is sad or disappointed.  

 

In addition, Mary was never treated comically unlike Edith whose attempt to catch Matthew was pathetic.

[statsgirl]

Yeah but Edith just bugs, so let Mary hammer away at her to her hearts content.

Do you mean that Edith is annoying so it's okay for Mary to bully her?

 

I have always hated bullies real or fictional  The way Mary treated people in general and Edith in particular combined with how Fellowes gave Mary everything while giving Edith the miseries of Job put me off this show for three seasons.  I only came back to watching last season. 

[AndySmith]

Well, I wouldn't say bully her, but if she goes after her, I'm ok with that because, TV not real.

Edited February 15, 2016 by AndySmith

[shipperx]

Lol AndySmith. I watched those scenes recently and the thing is Edith IS/WAS annoying and like a gnat that won't go away.

Where exactly is an unmarried young woman in 1914 supposed to go? Really, is her breathing while still in the same room supposed to be some sort of offense?

On a slightly different topic, I've always disagreed with the assumption that things were supposedly fine or acceptable between them until the show started. That's not the way that screenwriting is supposed to work. When you are introduced to characters in screen writing the idea is to introduce them by showing what is situation normal for the characters. So were introduced to Downton with Mary not really giving a rip about her dead fiancé while her parents immediately start in on who will marry Mary. Edith is described (by her parents and in front of her) as not having 'taken' during the social season (i.e. She failed to impress anyone--admirer or her parents). She's the dowdy sister who crushed on the dead guy, not that the dead guy apparently ever noticed.

Mary is introduced and described by their parents as the social superior, the catch, and as the center of familial attention and Edith told she has no particular advantages or attractions to speak of. This is simply their 'normal'.

The thing that shakes up is that with Patrick dead, Mary is no longer guaranteed next countess because suddenly Matthew is the new heir. Screen writing 101-- situation normal then introduce a new catalyst for plot. So the sibling pecking order and behaviors predate episode one, then Patrick, Pamuk, and Matthew situations shake things up.

Edited February 17, 2016 by shipperx

[skyways]

Where exactly is an unmarried young woman in 1914 supposed to go? Really, is her breathing while still in the same room supposed to be some sort of offense

 

 Mary watching the Duke drop her not so inelegantly, Edith sidles up ', so he slipped the hook'?

Mary looking surprised when Matthew excused himself at the flower show, Edith sidles up,' eh Mary? so now you want him and he doesn't want you'?

At dinner, Mary trying not to talk about the embarrassment of being caught downstairs with the Duke - Edith,' so what where you doing there, eh? eh? tell us Mary!!

Mary laughing quietly along with Sybil I might add in the Drawing room after Strallan's mishap - Edith, ' look at you Mary laughing like a witch. You should be ashamed of your self'.

Mary (and me) in all those circumstances SWAT!! SHOO FLY!!! Yuck

Edited February 17, 2016 by skyways

[AndySmith]

Mary (and me) in all those circumstances SWAT!! SHOO FLY!!!

 

Looooool and me too ;)

[Roseanna]

 Mary watching the Duke drop her not so inelegantly, Edith sidles up ', so he slipped the hook'?

Mary looking surprised when Matthew excused himself at the flower show, Edith sidles up,' eh Mary? so now you want him and he doesn't want you'?

At dinner, Mary trying not to talk about the embarrassment of being caught downstairs with the Duke - Edith,' so what where you doing there, eh? eh? tell us Mary!!

Mary laughing quietly along with Sybil I might add in the Drawing room after Strallan's mishap - Edith, ' look at you Mary laughing like a witch. You should be ashamed of your self'.

Mary (and me) in all those circumstances SWAT!! SHOO FLY!!! Yuck

 

I think you forget the most important thing: the sequence of the happenings. A person can react to what has happened earlier, but not vice versa.

 

When the gay duke has left, Edith comes to Mary and asks gleefully if he got from the hook and Mary answers that at least she doesn't fish without a bait. That was witty and quite enough.

 

But in the 5th episode there is a clear change. Nothing Mary says is no more witty but they are overkill and vindictive. She is not ​primarily reacting to Edith's words (and really, only those in the floor show were vindictive and then she has strong motive after Mary had "taken" Strallan) but to her own bad feelings after hearing from Cora that she is in danger to lose her matrimonial chances. Edith is only scapegoat although Mary is the author of her own misery.

 

There is also a second change just in the 5the episode. Before Mary had been indifferent when Edith chased Matthew. Probably she had been sure (as the audience has) that her sister can't succeed. But now she takes Strallan from Edith simply to show her superiority. And when Sybil looks adoringly at Matthew who has saved her, Mary acts at once to ensure that the sister whom she loves doesn't even get a chance.  

 

In addition, Mary has always two standards of behavior. She reproaches Edith for mourning openly for Patrick, but she herself acts like a drama queen, leaving the room and weeping because "Papa has now a son" (Matthew). And because she is beautiful, we are supposed to feel sympathy for her envy and jealousy whereas those same feelings make Edith look ugly. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Roseanna

[AndySmith]

Overkill and vindictive can still be witty.

[Roseanna]

Overkill and vindictive can still be witty.

 

In principle yes, but in this episode none of Mary's remarks to Edith were such, unlike previously.

 

In addition, although Mary has a sense of humor and can sometimes direct it towards herself, she is capable only sarcasm, not the highest sense of humor that sees the world and oneself in a comic light. That kind of humor helps oneself immensely as one can rise above one's own situation and laugh one's own mistakes. F.ex. Mary could see that it was amusing that she "lost" Matthew by "taking" Strallan from Edith. Also, if one has that kind of humor, other people don't annoy one so much as one can see most of their peculiarities in a comic light, knowing that oneself also has such. 

 

I have written Mary's hubris already before but it can also seen in her relationships with Edith. Mary thinks she is so superior (or rather, because she has just learned that isn't, at least superior to Edith) that she can treat Edith as badly she likes. In short, she has forgotten (or has she ever learned?) that should never humiliate one's opponent for that is sure to lead to a revenge.  Which is seen clearly in too harsh peace settlements. 

[AndySmith]

Sarcasm is a form of humor, and definitely one I appreciate. And coupled with some delicious eye rolling, well, I appreciate that as well. Both of which Mary does extremely well.

[TheGreenKnight]

And when Sybil looks adoringly at Matthew who has saved her, Mary acts at once to ensure that the sister whom she loves doesn't even get a chance.  

I noticed this more on my series re-watch. But it might've stood out more to me after finding out that Sybil was supposed to end up with Matthew originally. Mary also makes a face when the Duke who visits them in the first episode takes special interest in Sybil. I believe the only reason Sybil doesn't have a similar relationship with Sybil to the one she has with Edith is because Sybil is beautiful and much more likable than her--a viable threat. Edith is an easy target because Mary can always be assured she will beat Edith in the man-catching game they were trained in because she is more beautiful.

 

But I think Mary's superiority complex is clearly linked to how the family valued her more as the eldest than they did Edith while they were growing up. It's not really surprising that the "feud" between them reached its peak in the last season looking at it from that perspective, because Edith finally became closer to Violet, Rosamund, Robert, and Cora after the problems with Marigold. For once, Edith knew her family would support her and that they want her to be happy, and Mary obviously didn't like this change in the family dynamic. The very last episode of season 5, which setup most of the threads for the last season, had a particularly noteworthy scene where Edith and Robert are arm-and-arm talking and laughing behind Mary, and Mary sneers and rolls her eyes angrily. And it follows throughout the rest of the final season, where Mary interrupts conversations Edith is having with Robert, Cora, etc. in order to put her down, but it doesn't work anymore. Finally knowing the whole family sided with Edith's view of Mary by keeping her out of the loop in regards to Marigold looks like the final straw for Mary.

[AndySmith]

Edith knew her family would support her and that they want her to be happy,

 

So they didn't care about her before and wished her nothing but sadness and misery?

 

the whole family sided with Edith's view of Mary by keeping her out of the loop in regards to Marigold looks like the final straw for Mary.

 

I must have missed the scene where the family all got together and formed a secret cabal and instructed all the members not to tell Mary or something.

Edited February 17, 2016 by AndySmith

[Roseanna]

But I think Mary's superiority complex is clearly linked to how the family valued her more as the eldest than they did Edith while they were growing up. It's not really surprising that the "feud" between them reached its peak in the last season looking at it from that perspective, because Edith finally became closer to Violet, Rosamund, Robert, and Cora after the problems with Marigold. For once, Edith knew her family would support her and that they want her to be happy, and Mary obviously didn't like this change in the family dynamic. The very last episode of season 5, which setup most of the threads for the last season, had a particularly noteworthy scene where Edith and Robert are arm-and-arm talking and laughing behind Mary, and Mary sneers and rolls her eyes angrily. And it follows throughout the rest of the final season, where Mary interrupts conversations Edith is having with Robert, Cora, etc. in order to put her down, but it doesn't work anymore. Finally knowing the whole family sided with Edith's view of Mary by keeping her out of the loop in regards to Marigold looks like the final straw for Mary.

 

Interesting. However, I think that Mary rolled her eyes to Tom who, after Mary had in her superior way wondered how some take everything for granted (meaning Henry Talbot who couldn't know that Atticus had given his place in shooting for him), said that "all aren't so unselfish as you Mary". Although Tom clearly teased, what he in fact meant was that Mary is selfish and she is the last person who can reproach others for taking something for granted.

 

 Otherwise you are right. In the train Cora said to Mary "don't be rude" when Mary said "I am a mother" after Edith had worried about children. Also, when Edith was missing and Marty was the only one who didn't worry about her, Violet reproached her that lack of empathy is as vulgar as sentimentality.

 

Selfish, rude, lacking empathy - indeed, the family's opinion of Mary isn't flattering. 

[shipperx]

I must have missed the scene where the family all got together and formed a secret cabal and instructed all the members not to tell Mary or something.

They didn't. Which in its own way is more damning. Each independently drew the same conclusion that if Mary knew the truth she would use the information to hurt Edith.

And they were right.

One person thinking she'd behave badly can be dismissed as simply bias. But when everyone thinks so, it's a tell.

Edited February 18, 2016 by shipperx

[AndySmith]

They didn't even tell each other. They all discovered it on their own or in twosomes at the same time. And they barely spoke about it to each other. Would Violet have told Robert and Cora? Who knows.

[Roseanna]

They didn't. Which in its own way is more damning. Each independently drew the same conclusion that if Mary knew the truth she would use the information to hurt Edith.

And they were right.

One person thinking she'd behave badly can be dismissed as simply bias. But when everyone thinks so, it's a tell.

 

Actually the reason was that it was not their secret to tell but it was Edith's right whether to tell Mary or not.

 

But in Mary's POV they had decided not to tell her because they didn't trust her. Plus, instead of condemning Edith because of her "unmoral" behavior, they supported, valued and cherished her more than ever.

[AndySmith]

But in Mary's POV they had decided not to tell her because they didn't trust her

 

When was that established?

[Roseanna]

When was that established?

 

See her discussions with Anna and Tom and especially how she looks.

[AndySmith]

I did, but that doesn't exactly confirm an issue of trust. To me its more her fishing for who knows what exactly, more than "My family hasn't told me because they don't trust me!"

[Roseanna]

I did, but that doesn't exactly confirm an issue of trust. To me its more her fishing for who knows what exactly, more than "My family hasn't told me because they don't trust me!"

 

Then why she is so hurt in CS because Tom didn't tell her?

[AndySmith]

Because one person doesn't represent the entire family?

[Roseanna]

Because one person doesn't represent the entire family?

 

Ever heard of "pars pro toto" that is quite usual in art?

[AndySmith]

Yes but I wouldn't give JF that much credit.

[Roseanna]

Yes but I wouldn't give JF that much credit.

 

Maybe, but JF really can't have Mary to have the same discussion about the same subject with everyone as that would have been boring. So he had chosed two persons Mary is closest: Anna and Tom who both know and don't tell as she is likely to realize. 

 

We aren't at yet told what Mary thinks. But when she looks at her mirror in ep6, there are practically two possiblities: she wonders why on earth she hasn't realized it when there were so many clues or she is hurt to realize that her family has left her outside. Or both.

 

Both are painful realizations, but the latter is much more painful.

Although, as Tom says in ep8, it wasn't his secret to tell.

[AndySmith]

Yes but her talking to Tom and Anna probably doesn't represent anything, other than Mary trying to scope out who knows about the secret, and what they know.

 

And its hard to draw the conclusion that the family left her outside. Half the people who know probably don't even know who else knows. The only person Edith told was Rosamund. Cora was told, but not by Edith, and probably wouldn't have been told had Edith not ran away to London with Marigold. Violet found out because she could smell the bullshit Edith and Rosamund were trying to sell her. Robert, Tom, Anna, and Mrs. Hughes all found out on their own. So it wasn't like there was a big get together among the people who knew. The only people Edith really told was Rosamund. She kind of had to discuss it with Violet and Cora, but that most certainly wasn't her choice.

 

All Mary really knows at this point is that Cora and Violet know. And it wasn't like she overheard them talking about how Rosamund, Robert, Tom, Anna, and Mrs. Hughes all got together and signed a blood oath not to tell Mary

[ShadowFacts]

Mary should be most ticked off at herself, not figuring out what was right under her nose.  Her sister is gone to the continent for the length of time it takes to have a baby, comes back and shortly thereafter develops an intense interest in a child who she then wants the family to take in as a ward.  Said child looks enough like its father that Robert of all people noticed the resemblance.  Yes, Mary, you were pretty much not seeing the forest for the trees on this one.  She has been written as haughty enough that she might want to blame others in the family (and maybe Anna) for not telling her, but this is her failure of discernment. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Yes but her talking to Tom and Anna probably doesn't represent anything, other than Mary trying to scope out who knows about the secret, and what they know.

In episode 6, Mary tells Tom that she would consider any secrecy from others about Marigold a great betrayal. Obviously that betrayal is larger than just Tom, but includes everyone else she knows didn't tell her--Anna, Cora, Violet, Robert, Rosamund.

 

Also, it's doubtless that the family chose to leave Mary outside the know. Cora, Robert, and Rosamund have all had various conversations (with each other or with Edith) where they agree Edith is probably right to keep it from Mary. Violet's choice not to tell Mary is likely less personal, I'd guess; as she's said, her only goal is to "contain it," which means telling as few people as possible. Although Violet did criticize Mary once at the end of season 5 where it concerns Edith, so I'm sure she would've left Mary out purposely anyway.

[SusanSunflower]

 

In episode 6, Mary tells Tom that she would consider any secrecy from others about Marigold a great betrayal.

Because, it's always all about Mary ... because she cannot be trusted not to throw an utter snit fit ... just because no one told her .... because she cannot be trusted not to throw an utter snit fit (or worse).  Because it's not in Mary's nature to say -- OMG, Edith has gone through so much in the last few years and I was utterly oblivious ... well, Cora might even more fittingly say the same thing ... along with wondering why Edith never came to her (her mother) rather than consulting Rosamund and getting aid from Violet ... Seriously WTF is wrong with this family ... it's not like they're busy filming "Keeping up with the Granthams" and finalizing their collection(s) for Fashion Week ... or prepping for the Grammys and Saturday Night Live... 

 

I have to blame Cora for much of Mary's obliviousness. My mother tended to do the same thing out of utter cowardice as if what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her... real life doesn't work that way ... Learning to "not see" what's going on right in front of you takes years of practice and most children need rigorous training to be so competent at indifference. 

 

Will Mary or Cora ask themselves, "What kind of person must I be (or must they think I am) that they didn't confide in me or enlist my help?"  ... Well, some of us know the answer to that one.... 

Edited February 19, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[kpw801]

"I have to blame Cora for much of Mary's obliviousness. My mother tended to do the same thing out of utter cowardice as if what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her... real life doesn't work that way ... Learning to "not see" what's going on right in front of you takes years of practice and most children need rigorous training to be so competent at indifference."

 

ITA.  I just finished reading Everything She Ever Wanted, by the late Ann Rule.  The mother of Pat Allanson Taylor was just as clueless.  Thank God Mary only became a cold bi***!  She could have become a murderer.  I mean, when Edith had the outburst about Mary's new dress, hair cut and picnic, Cora took Mary's side, "Edith, is that fair?"

 

She and Robert never seem aware of how they enable Mary's bullying.

[SusanSunflower]

and you might have thought that Cora would have learned something from Sybil's near-elopement with Branson ... Cora and Robert both "lucked out" that Branson was and is a fine and honorable gentleman ... but Sybil was allowed to wander about freely innocent in her gorgeous and virginal state to get "mixed up" with the family's chauffeur. Edith was a "consenting adult" but particularly after her humiliation of Strallen, Edith was utterly ripe to be used and misused by an older man of the world ... and by some estimates she was ... 

Note that I do not think that Fellowes intended this sort of continuity in Cora's "bad mothering" department ... but Edith wasn't away in London and neither was Cora ... Even if Robert and Cora had given up on the idea of Edith ever marrying, they might be concerned about her social life and her work and, um, her editor ... and/or who she's seeing and what she's doing when she does go to London ... crickets. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

and you might have thought that Cora would have learned something from Sybil's near-elopement with Branson ... Cora and Robert both "lucked out" that Branson was and is a fine and honorable gentleman ... but Sybil was allowed to wander about freely innocent in her gorgeous and virginal state to get "mixed up" with the family's chauffeur. Edith was a "consenting adult" but particularly after her humiliation of Strallen, Edith was utterly ripe to be used and misused by an older man of the world ... and by some estimates she was ... 

Note that I do not think that Fellowes intended this sort of continuity in Cora's "bad mothering" department ... but Edith wasn't away in London and neither was Cora ... Even if Robert and Cora had given up on the idea of Edith ever marrying, they might be concerned about her social life and her work and, um, her editor ... and/or who she's seeing and what she's doing when she does go to London ... crickets. 

 

Oh come on, if a woman is of age and has a job, it's not her parents' business with whom she socializes.

 

In 19th century George Eliot "lived in sin" with a man who couldn't divorce his wife.

[SusanSunflower]

It's not a matter of being "nosy", rather it's a matter of being caring ... If I were Edith's mother, I would have been very concerned about her well-being and mental state after the Strallan debacle and would express interest in her doings to show I cared about her. Edith appears to have no friends -- none -- so yes, I think Cora and Rosamund would be pushing her to get out and about, with them or with whomever, rather than retreat to a dark corner and wait for death ... 

[AndySmith]

Isn't this whole family dysfunctional towards one another? A psychiatrist could earn their retirement helping out these people.

 

Plus, a casual observer would wonder what the hell is wrong with this family, especially with 3 scandal attracting daughters:

 

Mary - A diplomat died in her bed, of all places

Edith - Had an out-of-wedlock child with a married man

Sybil - Married the chauffeur (!) who is also Irish (!!) and Catholic (!!!) and their child is being raised Catholic (!!!!)

 

I'd say Robert and Cora are to blame, but given how hands-off parents of that class were at the time, they'd just say all 3 of them were raised by shitty nannies.

[Roseanna]

 

Plus, a casual observer would wonder what the hell is wrong with this family, especially with 3 scandal attracting daughters:

 

Mary - A diplomat died in her bed, of all places

Edith - Had an out-of-wedlock child with a married man

Sybil - Married the chauffeur (!) who is also Irish (!!) and Catholic (!!!) and their child is being raised Catholic (!!!!)

 

Wrong? All  three were brave enough not to live according to the stupid rules of the society of that time but according their own heart.

[Roseanna]

Edith was a "consenting adult" but particularly after her humiliation of Strallen, Edith was utterly ripe to be used and misused by an older man of the world ... and by some estimates she was ... 

 

I don't think so at all.

 

On the contrary, I think Micahel Gregson was the best that could be happen to Edith. He empowered her as a human being and as a woman. He admired her skills as a writer and gave her a job as a columnist. He admired her as woman and pursued her, not vice versa as with Strallan. He was willing to do a great sacrife in order to get a divorce and marry her. He secured her future by making a testament for her. He didn't seduce her but it was natural that, after the long dating and before the long separation, they in the end made love.  

 

Of course, considering that Gregson was an experienced man who had long wanted to bed Edith that he would have used a contraceptive but maybe he did and it failed. After all, they weren't 100-%-sure at that time. In any case, as he died, Edith was lucky to have even his child.

 

I do believe that a human being needs challenges for only through them she can grow. 

[Roseanna]

along with wondering why Edith never came to her (her mother) rather than consulting Rosamund and getting aid from Violet ...

 

That was due to the age: as it was considered "shameful" to have a child out of wedlock it was easier to ask for help from someone who wasn't quite no near, because their condemnation wasn't so heavy to bear whereas one wanted to keep the good opinion of one's nearest and dearest and/or not cause them distress. 

 

One if the most popular authors of mu country has written a series about the women in different social class. In it, a teacher became a political activist and worked with a married colleague whom she had long secretly loved. As there was a general strike in 1905, there was no traffic and they couldn't go home one night and made love. Being a priest's daughter she had horrible pangs of conscience and when he didn't seem any, he lost her regard. When she noticed to expect her child, she didn't tell her mother (her father had died), nor the aunt with whom she lived but made a plan to leave the country. Luckily she got a miscarriage before it and a formed servant of her aunt, now a dressmaker living nearby and a woman doctor succeeded to conceal it from her aunt. 

 

Instead, the dressmaker who couldn't for a long time get a divorce from her husband who had drank and left her, cohabited openly with another man for the rules of the society weren't as severe towards a working class.      

[AndySmith]

Before all, Mary and Edith's case it wasn't morality of the time, nor what really had happened, that was important, but whether the matter could be kept secret. Only matters that were revealed in public could create a scandal (and Edith's secret never was). That is, it was an age of great hypocrisy.

 

Regardless of whether or not it was hypocritical, covered up, out in the open, etc, by that society's standards what the 3 of them did was wrong and not how women of a proper class were meant to act.

[Andorra]

I made a list of good and bad things the sisters  have done. I tried to be as meticulously and objective as I could. 

 

The reason is: I think, that both sisters are equally good or bad. I really can't see why Edith is made into the "good" sister and Mary into a monster by so many posters. Sometimes I think those viewers watch a different show than I do. 

 

So here's my try at an objective collection. No excuses on either side. Who can add to the list? Please do!

 

Mary was vicious when:
- she told Bertie about Marigold
- she told Strallan that Edith was not interested (it was for revenge though)

 

She behaved badly when:
- she was rude and bitchy towards Edith (which was admittedly often)
- she kept Gillingham dangling after her even though she didn't want him any more
- she moaned about singing for the soldiers
- she said bad things about Edith to her mother/Violet/Anna (four times, "no advantages at all", "rather sleep on the roof", "Edith was so...(grimace"  and she told Anna it was beyond her what Gregson saw in Edith.)

 

She did something good when:
- she nursed Matthew after he was wounded
- she didn't tell Sybil's secret
- she sent William home to his mother
- visited Carson when he was ill
- went to Carlisle and confessed Pamuk only to help Anna and Bates
- told Jane to prepare a "honeymoon suite" for Anna and Bates
- helped Tom when he arrived after he was fleeing from Ireland
- helped Tom when he wanted to raise Sybbie Catholic
- visited Anna when she was in prison
- helped to avoid scandal by talking to Jack Ross after he proposed to Rose
- helped Anna when she had the difficulties to become pregnant
- helped Anna when she thought she had a miscarriage
- visited Thomas after his suicide attempt
- didn't tell Matthew about Lavinia's secret

 

Edith was vicious when:
- she wrote the letter to the Turkish ambassy

 

She behaved badly when:
- made rude remarks about Mary in front of others (admittedly very often)
- she kissed the married farmer
- when she took Marigold from the Schroeders
- when she didn't tell Mrs Drewe that Marigold was her daughter
- when she then took Marigold from the Drewes
- when she didn't care one bit that the Drewes lost everything only because of her
- when Carson had a heart attack and she just cared about her dress
- she started an affair with Gregson even though he was married
- she called Mary a slut and a bitch (the bitch was with provocation but still bad behaviour)

 

She did something good when:
- she supported Isobel after Matthew died
- supported Tom when he wanted to raise Sybbie Catholic
- she kept Sybil's secret when she, Mary and Anna brought her home after the elopement.
- she helped the soldiers in the convalescent home
- she told Mary that Matthew was missing
- she helped the Drakes with the tractor
- nursed William when he came home to die
- might have become a supporter of a girl's college through Rosamund's initiative (is not explicitly said)

 

 

To me the good and bad pretty much is the same for both characters. Why are people insisting Mary is the bitch and Edith the Saint? Why is it always Edith has done "nothing" and Mary is simply vicious?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

I made a list of good and bad things the sisters  have done. I tried to be as meticulously and objective as I could. 

 

The reason is: I think, that both sisters are equally good or bad. I really can't see why Edith is made into the "good" sister and Mary into a monster by so many posters. Sometimes I think those viewers watch a different show than I do. 

 

So here's my try at an objective collection. No excuses on either side. Who can add to the list? Please do!

 

Mary was vicious when:

- she told Bertie about Marigold

- she told Strallan that Edith was not interested (it was for revenge though)

 

She behaved badly when:

- she was rude and bitchy towards Edith (which was admittedly often)

- she kept Gillingham dangling after her even though she didn't want him any more

- she moaned about singing for the soldiers

- she said bad things about Edith to her mother/Violet/Anna (four times, "no advantages at all", "rather sleep on the roof", "Edith was so...(grimace"  and she told Anna it was beyond her what Gregson saw in Edith.)

 

She did something good when:

- she nursed Matthew after he was wounded

- she didn't tell Sybil's secret

- she sent William home to his mother

- visited Carson when he was ill

- went to Carlisle and confessed Pamuk only to help Anna and Bates

- told Jane to prepare a "honeymoon suite" for Anna and Bates

- helped Tom when he arrived after he was fleeing from Ireland

- helped Tom when he wanted to raise Sybbie Catholic

- visited Anna when she was in prison

- helped to avoid scandal by talking to Jack Ross after he proposed to Rose

- helped Anna when she had the difficulties to become pregnant

- helped Anna when she thought she had a miscarriage

- visited Thomas after his suicide attempt

- didn't tell Matthew about Lavinia's secret

 

Edith was vicious when:

- she wrote the letter to the Turkish ambassy

 

She behaved badly when:

- made rude remarks about Mary in front of others (admittedly very often)

- she kissed the married farmer

- when she took Marigold from the Schroeders

- when she didn't tell Mrs Drewe that Marigold was her daughter

- when she then took Marigold from the Drewes

- when she didn't care one bit that the Drewes lost everything only because of her

- when Carson had a heart attack and she just cared about her dress

- she started an affair with Gregson even though he was married

- she called Mary a slut and a bitch (the bitch was with provocation but still bad behaviour)

 

She did something good when:

- she supported Isobel after Matthew died

- supported Tom when he wanted to raise Sybbie Catholic

- she kept Sybil's secret when she, Mary and Anna brought her home after the elopement.

- she helped the soldiers in the convalescent home

- she told Mary that Matthew was missing

- she helped the Drakes with the tractor

- nursed William when he came home to die

- might have become a supporter of a girl's college through Rosamund's initiative (is not explicitly said)

 

 

To me the good and bad pretty much is the same for both characters. Why are people insisting Mary is the bitch and Edith the Saint? Why is it always Edith has done "nothing" and Mary is simply vicious?

 

I don't think that's a very objective list. The Drewes did not lose "all" (if that means their farm) because of Edith but because Mrs Drewe kidnapped Marigold. And earlier Mrs Drewe would have lost Marigold anyway as Rosamund and Violet would have taken her to a French school. The whole incident was an example of escalation where each party reacted to the other's deeds and neither was blameless.     

 

The deeds are never done in a vacuum and therefore they must be evaluered in ther context, and ask what motives a person had and whether she had any alternatives, for instance did she have to chose between "good to me" or "good to someone else". Edith chose the former in the case of Mrs Drewe and Mary chose the latter in case of Lavinia, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Mary's choice was good to Matthew and Edith's choice was bad to Marigold (or at least she had no knowledge about the later child psychology).

 

Mary's hair cutting scene was morally so callous because she has no real motive (unlike both sisters had in S1) and because it happened after Edith had not acted in the same way when Matthew died. Also, Mary's indifference when Edith was missing showed lack of common decency.

 

Also, one must remember that all those incidents where the person had a possibility seriously to hurt the other but she didn't do it:

Edith could have told Matthew about Pamuk but she didn't. She could have told Henry about Pamuk and Mary's sex week but she didn't (of course she couldn't tell about how Mary had revealed her secret to Bertie without revealing the secret).

 

Finally, it's interesting that you think that Edith did wrong to make love with Michael Gregson, but don't mention Mary's affair with Pamuk. Now, I am for women's sexual freedom and don't condemn Mary even if that incident was a basic cause of all her later problems in S1 and S2. But if she can have one night stand out of boredom and lust, why can't Edith make love to a man whom she loves and who loves him, who wants to marry her and whose marriage is only legal formality?