Nicole Wallace: Seductress, Murderess, Goren's White Whale...

[WendyCR72]

The "white whale" reference courtesy of Captain Ross.

 

Usually I wouldn't make threads about the criminals, but since Nicole seemed to be an exception, one whom was able to tie Goren into knots (and later having it turn on him where his family is concerned), and she is so damned polarizing, I figured she should have her own thread for folks to either love or loathe her.

 

So chat about Nicole Wallace here. For either side. And if you do like her? Awesome! We like who/what we like; we don't what we don't.

[BizBuzz]

Honestly, I can't believe this wasn't already a topic!

 

Too tired to respond tonight, but I will soon!

[WendyCR72]

I'm kind of surprised no one made such a topic before I did, but maybe some were afraid of those who dislike her? Shrug. Either way, if there are those out there who liked her, it may be an interesting thread.  :-)

[BizBuzz]

Ok, I will say that I didn't like her, but I did like the continuity she brought to the series.

 

Everytime she showed up, I was like Bobby, KICK HER ASS TO THE CURB.  And yet, it didn't happen.  I love recurring characters like that.  Call me a softy for a stale story line. ::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

I think Bobby did hate her for what she was, but he was fascinated by her cunning and her smarts. Had she not been psychotic, I think he could have gone for her, but even screwed-up Bobby had enough scruples and boundaries to not cross that line.

 

Then again, Bobby was a minefield for any shrink. Not to belabor the Goren/Eames "love" prospect brought up in S10 (that view is dependent on every individual), but even that was maybe the first POSSIBLE (for that side) "normal" woman Bobby considered - and only after much-needed therapy. (And maybe the unnamed old girlfriends before her Early Bobby referenced, but we never saw them...) But when you consider Nicole, Leslie LeZard, and the Susan chick in S4, all of whom were a few pancakes short of a stack, and all whom it seemed Bobby took an interest in, it's clear the man...had issues.

 

Maybe because his own mother had mental issues, but he did seem fascinated by it all, and since Nicole matched his intelligence, it intrigued Bobby as much as it repulsed him!

[BizBuzz]

it's clear the man...had issues.

 

You think?

 

::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

You think?

 

::giggle::

 

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllll...the thought did cross my mind!  :-P

[FozzyBear]

I think Bobby did hate her for what she was, but he was fascinated by her cunning and her smarts. Had she not been psychotic, I think he could have gone for her, but even screwed-up Bobby had enough scruples and boundaries to not cross that line.

Then again, Bobby was a minefield for any shrink. Not to belabor the Goren/Eames "love" prospect brought up in S10 (that view is dependent on every individual), but even that was maybe the first POSSIBLE (for that side) "normal" woman Bobby considered - and only after much-needed therapy. (And maybe the unnamed old girlfriends before her Early Bobby referenced, but we never saw them...) But when you consider Nicole, Leslie LeZard, and the Susan chick in S4, all of whom were a few pancakes short of a stack, and all whom it seemed Bobby took an interest in, it's clear the man...had issues.

Maybe because his own mother had mental issues, but he did seem fascinated by it all, and since Nicole matched his intelligence, it intrigued Bobby as much as it repulsed him!

I think Bobby had a lot of sympathy for people with mental illness because of his mom. He seemed to have a certain level of respect for the work it takes for mentally ill people to keep it together. Even when they were doing bad stuff (like killing people) there was a part of him that appreciated how exhausting it could be to be "normal".

With Nicole, I think she just straight up reminded him of his mom. Beautiful, charming, smart, narssacistic, needy, erratic...the whole ball of wax. He was interested (I've never been 100% sold that interest was sexual, or at least consciously. He also seemed pretty grossed out by her) because he had been raised by someone like her. I think Nicole was able to pick up on that really easily and play him a little.

I always liked Nicole, though. I thought she was an interesting sparring partner. I also like that they made his White Whale a woman because I think Bobby has some...issues in that department. Bobby was super charismatic and women obviously liked him, but VDO also played him a little repressed. A little afraid of getting too involved with a woman. I though Nicole was an interesting way to play with that. It seemed like she represented his absolute nightmare about what type of woman he might have ended up with if he'd been a little bit less smart, kind, decent, a little bit more like his brother.

Edited August 16, 2014 by FozzyBear

[WendyCR72]

I also like that they made his White Whale a woman because I think Bobby has some...issues in that department. Bobby was super charismatic and women obviously liked him, but VDO also played him a little repressed. A little afraid of getting too involved with a woman. I though Nicole was an interesting way to play with that. It seemed like she represented his absolute nightmare about what type of woman he might have ended up with if he'd been a little bit less smart, kind, decent, a little bit more like his brother.

 

Hmm. That's a pretty interesting theory, @FozzyBear, Nicole being Bobby's "feared woman" had he taken the other path. Jo Gage did tell Bobby, "You could have gone either way..."  So it makes sense that someone like Nicole would be the embodiment of that, and would instill a sense of fear in Bobby in having a real intimate relationship.

 

Again, it is interesting to note that Bobby really did not explore the possibility of an intimate romantic relationship with a woman (asking Dr. Gyson if it was too late) until he had to go to therapy. I think Bobby was all in knots and only therapy gave him the strength to confront those fears.

[Donny Ketchum]

To be honest, I never saw the problem others have seen with Nicole.  I never thought she was used that much.  My brother was always frustrated by her because she always avoided capture at the last minute, yet from what I saw, she was brought to justice in the finale of season two.

 

Really, the only thing that bugs me is that if she was going to be Goren's recurring nemesis, he should've been the one to take her out in the end, not his mentor, who'd never even met her before.

[BizBuzz]

Really, the only thing that bugs me is that if she was going to be Goren's recurring nemesis, he should've been the one to take her out in the end, not his mentor, who'd never even met her before.

 

This is a good point, however, I think it added to the frustration level of Bobby ... think ... you can't always get what you want type of thing.  But you get what you need.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, nice tie-in to the The Stones, @BizBuzz!  :-)

 

Still, interesting thought, that the mechanism of Nicole's demise could be another "loss" for Goren, since he was not the one to ultimately deal with her in the end.

[Maherjunkie]

I love Nicole.  She could have been the whole show and I wouldn't have cared.

[WendyCR72]

I love Nicole.  She could have been the whole show and I wouldn't have cared.

 

The whole show? Let's not get carried away here, @Maherjunkie!  :-)

[Maherjunkie]

Well, theoretically, if it were possible.  No other perp could come close.

[rujasu]

I'm not a Nicole fan.  To me, too much of the show was about her to begin with, I wouldn't watch at all if she was the whole thing!

[WendyCR72]

I'm not a Nicole fan.  To me, too much of the show was about her to begin with, I wouldn't watch at all if she was the whole thing!

 

The weird thing was, Olivia D'Abo was only in a handful of episodes, but even when she wasn't, there were some episodes that used her presence, as it were. ("Slither", as such an example.) She was on her way to becoming all omnipotent, so I'm personally relieved that she was taken care of in S7. Although I will echo @Donny Ketchum and say, as much as I have a small soft spot for Declan Gage for doing the deed, Bobby should have been the one to do it.

[WendyCR72]

OT, yet sort of fittingly odd: Apparently, The View has added some new panelist including Rosie Perez and...Nicolle Wallace, who is a political commentator. So this Nicole has 2 Ls in her name, but it's amusing to think maybe she rose from the dead and went from fake professor to fake news person!

[Maherjunkie]

She worked for Bush so she's all about fake news.  (Sorry!  Had to have that one!)

[Champagne100]

But love her or hate her, could you change the channel when the 2 of them were going at it? And I refuse to believe she's dead. Not for logical reasons; it's just too much fun to think of her alive.

[rujasu]

But love her or hate her, could you change the channel when the 2 of them were going at it? And I refuse to believe she's dead. Not for logical reasons; it's just too much fun to think of her alive.

 

Hmm, I don't think I found them as compelling as you did. :)

[Maherjunkie]

They had a Liz and Dick quality.

[WendyCR72]

They had a Liz and Dick quality.

 

But as dysfunctional as Liz and Dick were, it was rooted in love. Goren and Nicole? I don't think so. I think it was Goren's Mommy issues at play, trying to understand and empathize with Nicole's batshit self. Kind of squicky and Oedipal, but that's how I saw the dynamic.

[Maherjunkie]

I think she was just Moriarty with buck teeth.

[WendyCR72]

I think she was just Moriarty with buck teeth.

 

Damn. That's mean, Maherjunkie. LOL! But I saw elsewhere where someone said Nicole resembles a rabbit with those teeth, too. But to separate Olivia D'Abo from Nicole, I never noticed the teeth issue. She played creepy well. As far from the big sister she played on The Wonder Years as she could get.

[Maherjunkie]

Great actress.  Would love to see her on the stage, Freddie Mercury choppers and all.

[ApathyMonger]

Really, the only thing that bugs me is that if she was going to be Goren's recurring nemesis, he should've been the one to take her out in the end, not his mentor, who'd never even met her before.

 

On this: has anyone else seen Jo, the European cop show Rene Balcer made a few years ago? I don't think it ever aired in the US (as it was really terrible), but the final episode is an interesting CI curio:

 

Olivia d'Abo appears as a seemingly innocent character who, as the episode goes on, starts to display Nicole-like qualities. They eventually bring her in to custody, where they test her fingerprints and find... that she's Nicole Wallace, who apparently died in NY five years earlier.

 

Balcer must really have hated the episode where Nicole dies, because she gets a whole rant about how out of character she was acting (off-screen) in that episode, and how badly written the note with the flowers was, and how she'd never do that. (She eventually gets away, as she always does.)

 

It's unlikely to ever happen, but I'd love a L&O:CI movie where Goren tries to finally take Nicole down for real.

 

Edited October 8, 2014 by ApathyMonger
Put all the spoilers under one tag.

[WendyCR72]

On this: has anyone else seen Jo, the European cop show Rene Balcer made a few years ago? I don't think it ever aired in the US (as it was really terrible), but the final episode is an interesting CI curio

 

Wow. Thanks for the info, ApathyMonger!

I HATED Nicole (obviously), BUT...I'm sort of glad this is out there somewhere. May not be strictly canon, but since Rene Balcer did lead CI as EP for 5 years, it's nice to think Bobby (again!) came back to the NYPD (Eames joining him, bored with her other position), and Goren finally faces Nicole down.

 

I never even knew this show even existed, so this is pretty cool.

 

Huh! Amazon has it listed - but it's Region 2, obviously. (Amazon UK also has it, and someone in one of the reviews does make mention of what you have spoiled. Someone also said Jill Hennessy played a nun! WHAT? LOL!)

[ApathyMonger]

The only other episode of Jo I sort of liked is the sixth one, in which Sam Waterston guests (not as Jack McCoy). It's about children evacuated during WW2, and is pretty much the only episode which actually used the Paris setting and couldn't have been done in NY.

[WendyCR72]

The only other episode of Jo I sort of liked is the sixth one, in which Sam Waterston guests (not as Jack McCoy). It's about children evacuated during WW2, and is pretty much the only episode which actually used the Paris setting and couldn't have been done in NY.

 

I was curious as can be and found that Jo episode

with Nicole breathing air

. Just based on the one episode, it kind of struck me as a French locale version of CI, but with a less quirky lead. So I guess it makes sense that Balcer was involved.

 

But how odd it is that this show clearly

uses CI canon yet has L&O Mothership actors appear not as their known characters. Kind of parallel universes colliding! I wonder if any rights issues were involved in the character switching?

[WendyCR72]

Another thing sprung to mind about that show Jo and the Nicole connection.

In the episode where it was discovered that Nicole is sadly still living, she scoffed to the cops that she wouldn't have done the things that were brought up from "Frame"/CI. But...Olivia D'Abo did appear in "Frame", not a stand in. So, are we to assume she's just a liar, as usual, or was Rene Balcer sloppy [which would be unusual for him] and just wanting to retcon stuff since he seemed unable to let Nicole Wallace rest in hell?

 

Either way, that whole angle seems mighty contradictory.

[kacesq]

There aren't enough words to convey how much I hated Nicole Wallace post Season 2. I remember watching Anti-Thesis when it aired and being stunned that she got away at the end, but secure in my knowledge even then during CI's youth that Goren would get her. Which was proven correct with A Person of Interest. And that's where it should've ended, although I wouldn't have minded a mention here or there about Nicole in prison.

 

But when they continued on and on with her...She was a mom! She killed her baby! Wait, now she's a caring mother figure saving a child from evil father! Blech, blech, blech.  I thought Olivia D'Abo was at best, a competent actress so I just never got this overwhelming "Nicole Wallace criminal mastermind, woman of many facets" from her performance.

 

I lived in mortal fear that they would bring back Nicole for S10 and was happy she didn't re-appear and she didn't get tons of time during Bobby's shrink sessions.

 

I've been mourning the demise of CI reruns on TV - USA barely shows then, WGNA dropped them, all I have left is Ion - and then last weekend, lo and behold! USA did a Saturday marathon.

 

Of all the Nicole episodes. I did not watch. I'm not that desperate to watch CI, lol.

 

Completely agree, however, with all those who said at the end, Goren should've been the one to off her. Not Gage (can I just mention btw how much I enjoyed John Glover chewing the scenery as Gage in his two episodes? FWIW.)..

[Eolivet]

I don't mind Nicole as much as some, but I did like her arc in "Grow." It reminded me of a (paraphrased) line about serial killers that I heard on some other crime drama (maybe even Law & Order itself): that you can tell yourself you're still human because you let one go, you let one live. After all the people Nicole killed without a second thought -- including her own daughter -- showing an attachment to a little girl was probably some sick way of her justifying to herself she had some humanity left.

 

I think "Grow" would've been even more interesting if Nicole hadn't had a daughter of her own. That after manipulating men and manipulating women, perhaps she'd try to make some sort of amends by becoming the mother she never had and raising a daughter in the way she was never raised. Only to discover she couldn't do it. It would also play on the "bad parents" contest that she and Goren had going.

 

The Nicole episode that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is "Great Barrier": that quasi-maternal/lover relationship she had with the teenage girl was just beyond strange. And the revelation about killing her four-year old because her daughter was sexual competition (W.T.F.?!) and then at the end, "suddenly" "jumping through the window" and "leaving blood behind" was like the episode morphing into a weird thriller.

 

(Actually, I take that back: the most ridiculous Nicole episode was the end of "Slither" when she managed to stab the guy with a poisoned syringe in the middle of a crowded subway station in such a way that it both killed him instantly and nobody saw her do it. As others have said, that made her into a weird kind of supervillain in a way she hadn't been before.)

[WendyCR72]

There aren't enough words to convey how much I hated Nicole Wallace post Season 2. I remember watching Anti-Thesis when it aired and being stunned that she got away at the end, but secure in my knowledge even then during CI's youth that Goren would get her. Which was proven correct with A Person of Interest. And that's where it should've ended, although I wouldn't have minded a mention here or there about Nicole in prison.

 

But when they continued on and on with her...She was a mom! She killed her baby! Wait, now she's a caring mother figure saving a child from evil father! Blech, blech, blech.  I thought Olivia D'Abo was at best, a competent actress so I just never got this overwhelming "Nicole Wallace criminal mastermind, woman of many facets" from her performance.

 

I lived in mortal fear that they would bring back Nicole for S10 and was happy she didn't re-appear and she didn't get tons of time during Bobby's shrink sessions.

 

I've been mourning the demise of CI reruns on TV - USA barely shows then, WGNA dropped them, all I have left is Ion - and then last weekend, lo and behold! USA did a Saturday marathon.

 

Of all the Nicole episodes. I did not watch. I'm not that desperate to watch CI, lol.

 

Completely agree, however, with all those who said at the end, Goren should've been the one to off her. Not Gage (can I just mention btw how much I enjoyed John Glover chewing the scenery as Gage in his two episodes? FWIW.)..

 

As was stated somewhere in the forum, Rene Balcer (EP of CI for the first 5 seasons) had a cop show overseas with Jean Reno called Jo with various L&O stars on there but NOT as their L&O characters (Sam Waterston, Jill Hennessy). However, it did end up PARTIALLY tied to CI since

Nicole Wallace was alive and well, committing her crimes in France. And she addressed some of the S7 CI stuff... At least Goren thinks she's dead. But Gage was either just totally gone or a great liar then when he claimed to have killed Nicole.

 

 

 

I've been mourning the demise of CI reruns on TV - USA barely shows then, WGNA dropped them, all I have left is Ion - and then last weekend, lo and behold! USA did a Saturday marathon.

 

Do you get MyNetwork? (It was created once UPN merged with the WB for the CW, and it left a "free" channel which MyNetwork claimed.) In my area, at least, CI repeats are shown during the week. Cloo (if you have it) also shows them.

 

Per their site, WGN America DOES still show repeats. Ironically, it's showing the "missing" episode from S8, "The Glory That Was" (which ion always skips).