RW: Paris (2003)

[seltzer3]

So been watching the first five episodes.

Adam is probably my least favorite houseguest so far.  Really do not like his treatment of women.  His blowup with Leah was kind of understandable even though it was not justified (Leah was just pushing his buttons and his response was out of line).  But his blowup with Mallory was gross and ridiculous.  Like just because Mallory wasn't into you, you just freak out on her (on the first day?)

I guess Christina is my favorite?  Although its going to take time.  

5 episodes in, and I still have no idea who Simon is.  Which is surprising since he's the only non-american in the cast.

Interestingly enough I don't hate Leah (I heard she was really annoying and entitled).  Like I get it, but I feel like her reactions are understandable, since CT and Adam were really not nice to her.  CT and  Leah just really do not gel well and their quirks piss each other off more.

Edited February 16, 2022 by seltzer3

[Bastet]

I remember trying to watch this season at the time to see Paris (which I hadn't yet been to then) and their travels, but not winding up sitting through too many episodes because I didn't truly like any of the roommates.

I just re-watched the first episode, and don't remember Christina or Simon at all.  I think I disliked all the other guys, or at least Adam and Chris/CT.

Oh, wait - I do remember Simon.  He's the guy Leah was really stupid with in a discussion about the U.S. invasion of Iraq; she said something like because she's from NY, no one can say anything bad about the atrocities America was using 9/11 as justification to commit.  That's the only specific moment I remember of the entire season.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Bastet

[seltzer3]

I guess Christina is my ironic favorite, because of her inital connection with CT.  I think the thing that cracks me up (probably all editing) is her obsession with eggs.  Like this whole thing throughout the episode is how her man should cook eggs the right way.  It was hilarious because not only how non stop she kept talking about it, but how specific her demands for it.  3 egg whites...and 1/4 of an egg yolk?!  Hilarious.

[ljenkins782]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:05 PM, Bastet said:

I remember trying to watch this season at the time to see Paris (which I hadn't yet been to then) and their travels, but not winding up sitting through too many episodes because I didn't truly like any of the roommates.

I just re-watched the first episode, and don't remember Christina or Simon at all.  I think I disliked all the other guys, or at least Adam and Chris/CT.

Oh, wait - I do remember Simon.  He's the guy Leah was really stupid with in a discussion about the U.S. invasion of Iraq; she said something like because she's from NY, no one can say anything bad about the atrocities America was using 9/11 as justification to commit.  That's the only specific moment I remember of the entire season.

Yes, that discussion was very raw and one of my most distinctive memories of the season. I have to remind myself that this was filmed 2 years post-9/11 and it was still very raw, but Simon's viewpoint was very measured and rational, Leah's response was entirely emotional and irrational. I also recall a lot of ugly American-ism from Ace around this time.

Quote

I guess Christina is my ironic favorite, because of her inital connection with CT.  I think the thing that cracks me up (probably all editing) is her obsession with eggs.  Like this whole thing throughout the episode is how her man should cook eggs the right way.  It was hilarious because not only how non stop she kept talking about it, but how specific her demands for it.  3 egg whites...and 1/4 of an egg yolk?!  Hilarious.

Ugh, I was not a fan of Christina at all and especially not of her egg analogies. She just seemed to find herself much more adorable and quirky than I do and her long-winded, high maintenance list of requirements for her ideal man were so tiresome. Also, she was genuinely dumb as a brick and I have a low tolerance for that, especially when they're people who attempt to use bigger words or who just talk endlessly and expose their ignorance continuously, I struggle with those people. 

I highly recommend the Shit you never saw DVD for this season though, it has some serious gems. There's a whole riff on Christina's long-windedness and misusing of words, Simon and Leah are the stars of this section, their reactions to her are priceless. 

I have this season on dvd but have never revisited the whole thing. I thought it was decent back then, but I suspect that it won't have aged well. The Ace/Mallory stuff was a little squicky even then with him being 24 and her being 18, but as an older adult, I think it'll seem worse. Also, the Adam stuff with Leah in the first episode was truly one of the cruelest scenes ever. Leah's brash and irritating in her own way, but the way he cut right to the deepest insult with relish, it was so hard to watch. 

Also, KellyAnne from the Sydney season has publicly accused Adam of raping or taking advantage of her while she was drunk and bragging about it to others, so the redemption arc Adam received later on in the challenges are negated by that because I believe her. 

[Bastet]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:06 AM, ljenkins782 said:

Also, KellyAnne from the Sydney season has publicly accused Adam of raping or taking advantage of her while she was drunk and bragging about it to others,

He has a raging sense of Nice Guy entitlement to women in the nearly dozen episodes I have watched so far.  He never had a "hot girl" in high school or college and didn't have sex until he was 22, so he's on a quest to hook up with every woman he meets - to the point all the roommates talk about it - and gets creepy angry when they're not interested.  With one, he wrote a song about being pissed off at spending money and not getting a kiss (mind you, he hadn't even known her a week yet).

[ljenkins782]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

He has a raging sense of Nice Guy entitlement to women in the nearly dozen episodes I have watched so far.  He never had a "hot girl" in high school or college and didn't have sex until he was 22, so he's on a quest to hook up with every woman he meets - to the point all the roommates talk about it - and gets creepy angry when they're not interested.  With one, he wrote a song about being pissed off at spending money and not getting a kiss (mind you, he hadn't even known her a week yet).

Yes, the desperation reeked off of him.

But OMG, how could I forget Adam’s songs??? So cringe-y, I must have scrubbed them from my mind in secondhand embarrassment.

[Bastet]

Holy shit, CT is total rage case.  His Neanderthal routine with the guy from the bar and with Adam was insane, and why the hell didn't producers send him home?  Because Adam didn't ask them to?  He shouldn't have to.  You don't get to physically attack a roommate and and continue getting housing and air time.

And I wonder if Leah actually knew what had happened she was bonding with CT over their city folk code of always having your roommate's back?  Adam was supposed to get into a physical fight - risking injury and/or arrest - because ... Adam got cussed at by a guy he bumped into in a bar?  Fuck that noise.

CT's reaction to any conflict is to yell, threaten, and even punch.

[ljenkins782]

16 hours ago, Bastet said:

Holy shit, CT is total rage case.  His Neanderthal routine with the guy from the bar and with Adam was insane, and why the hell didn't producers send him home?  Because Adam didn't ask them to?  He shouldn't have to.  You don't get to physically attack a roommate and and continue getting housing and air time.

And I wonder if Leah actually knew what had happened she was bonding with CT over their city folk code of always having your roommate's back?  Adam was supposed to get into a physical fight - risking injury and/or arrest - because ... Adam got cussed at by a guy he bumped into in a bar?  Fuck that noise.

CT's reaction to any conflict is to yell, threaten, and even punch.

Is that the infamous "I.will.work.you.dog" scene where CT screamed into each of Adam's ears individually? 

The no violence clause does seem to be triggered by request/house decisions. Like the Sydney season where the one girl was wasted and throwing glasses at people, there wasn't even a hint of a possibility that she'd be sent home, but another roommate was sent home after pushing another person who elected to send her home. IMO, the girl chucking glasses at people's heads was more dangerous but because no one asked for it, she wasn't threatened with eviction.

If I were in the Paris cast, I'd probably have wanted to get CT removed just because he was volatile and frankly, awkward to be around. Editing has been kind to him in many scenarios, but there has been enough controversy around him to suggest that it's not pleasant to be around.

The season was a bit of a dud because they were living so far out of the city. From cast interviews, it seems like they were bored and broke most of the time and getting into the city was expensive and difficult. No matter how big and fancy the house was, it was apparently messy and gross most of the time and they got tired of it. And their hot tub was never cleaned and got super nasty by the end, they overchlorinated it to kill the funk and it was burning people's skin. Gross. 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Is that the infamous "I.will.work.you.dog" scene where CT screamed into each of Adam's ears individually?

Yep.

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

The season was a bit of a dud because they were living so far out of the city. From cast interviews, it seems like they were bored and broke most of the time and getting into the city was expensive and difficult.

That would explain why they spent so much of their time in Paris ordering pizza from Domino's.  Paris is one of the greatest cities in the world to eat in, so I was rather horrified by that (I wouldn't even eat Domino's at home!).  I do think it's a shame they were housed so far out of the city, and Paris is expensive, but there are cheap and even free things to do; hell, it's an incredible city just to walk around in.  They did not seem to take proper advantage of the opportunity.

In interviews, was it ever said if they got to expense to Frommer's the tab for the places they reviewed?  Because I was surprised how lazy they were about getting paid to explore Paris nightlife.  Well, mostly lazy at writing about it, but even though they only got into specifics about CT and Leah not going to Versailles (which made me laugh, since it would have been right up Leah's alley), there were a couple of comments that made it seem like perhaps that wasn't the only time some of them just looked online rather than going.

I finished the season last night and also watched the reunion, which was even more boring than the season.  They built up to this "big reveal" that Mallory and Ace were dating, but that was hardly a surprise since the update they gave on her at the end of the finale wasn't about anything she was doing school- or work-wise, just that "she went to visit Ace in Georgia without cameras". 

[choclatechip45]

Leah said in an interview that the season was suppose to take place in San Diego. However since Mary Ellis was super sick she wanted the season in Paris last minute and they rented the house from one of her friends. 

[ljenkins782]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:07 PM, Bastet said:

Yep.

That would explain why they spent so much of their time in Paris ordering pizza from Domino's.  Paris is one of the greatest cities in the world to eat in, so I was rather horrified by that (I wouldn't even eat Domino's at home!).  I do think it's a shame they were housed so far out of the city, and Paris is expensive, but there are cheap and even free things to do; hell, it's an incredible city just to walk around in.  They did not seem to take proper advantage of the opportunity.

In interviews, was it ever said if they got to expense to Frommer's the tab for the places they reviewed?  Because I was surprised how lazy they were about getting paid to explore Paris nightlife.  Well, mostly lazy at writing about it, but even though they only got into specifics about CT and Leah not going to Versailles (which made me laugh, since it would have been right up Leah's alley), there were a couple of comments that made it seem like perhaps that wasn't the only time some of them just looked online rather than going.

I finished the season last night and also watched the reunion, which was even more boring than the season.  They built up to this "big reveal" that Mallory and Ace were dating, but that was hardly a surprise since the update they gave on her at the end of the finale wasn't about anything she was doing school- or work-wise, just that "she went to visit Ace in Georgia without cameras". 

I think the logistics of the camera crew are a big part of why they don't just walk around and explore places. They have to make certain arrangements and get clearances to film in places they might go, so I think a lot of them just give up. Also, I can't recall how far into the filming the wars began and the anti-American sentiment ramped up, but they may not have wanted to draw attention to themselves and it's basically impossible not to draw attention while being followed by a camera crew.

And I think they got paid, but it wasn't mentioned whether their review-related outings were reimbursed or comped. It would have helped if they had an English-fluent French person in the house, they were the blind leading the blind in terms of getting around the city, if they'd had someone there to facilitate, they might have done better.

The Ace and Mallory relationship, ugh. I like Ace well enough, but he's definitely a man-child. So dating an 18 year old is on brand for him and she was too young to realize that his Peter Pan tendencies aren't a good thing. 

Quote

Leah said in an interview that the season was suppose to take place in San Diego. However since Mary Ellis was super sick she wanted the season in Paris last minute and they rented the house from one of her friends. 

That's sad about Mary-Ellis, but it explains a lot about this season. Besides the poor location of the house, there was also the fact that none of them spoke more than a few words of French, which you'd think at least a few of them would have attempted to brush up on if they had months to prepare.

[choclatechip45]

On 2/23/2022 at 8:20 PM, ljenkins782 said:

I think the logistics of the camera crew are a big part of why they don't just walk around and explore places. They have to make certain arrangements and get clearances to film in places they might go, so I think a lot of them just give up. Also, I can't recall how far into the filming the wars began and the anti-American sentiment ramped up, but they may not have wanted to draw attention to themselves and it's basically impossible not to draw attention while being followed by a camera crew.

And I think they got paid, but it wasn't mentioned whether their review-related outings were reimbursed or comped. It would have helped if they had an English-fluent French person in the house, they were the blind leading the blind in terms of getting around the city, if they'd had someone there to facilitate, they might have done better.

The Ace and Mallory relationship, ugh. I like Ace well enough, but he's definitely a man-child. So dating an 18 year old is on brand for him and she was too young to realize that his Peter Pan tendencies aren't a good thing. 

That's sad about Mary-Ellis, but it explains a lot about this season. Besides the poor location of the house, there was also the fact that none of them spoke more than a few words of French, which you'd think at least a few of them would have attempted to brush up on if they had months to prepare.

Yup. Leah said she had less than a month between being cast and going the on the show. It was Mary-Ellis dream to have a season in a Paris. Leah said the cast was told after the season at a dinner at Jon Murray's house about the switcheroo. 

Leah also said her roommate was auditioning for Road Rules and they sent a bunch of PAs to the sorority house and interviewed everyone and that's how she ended up on the show. She had only seen a few episodes of Chicago..which might explain some things. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by choclatechip45

[choclatechip45]

What ever happened to Christina? She disappeared. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by choclatechip45

[CeeBeeGee]

On 2/15/2022 at 3:12 PM, seltzer3 said:

Adam is probably my least favorite houseguest so far.  Really do not like his treatment of women.  His blowup with Leah was kind of understandable even though it was not justified (Leah was just pushing his buttons and his response was out of line).  But his blowup with Mallory was gross and ridiculous.  Like just because Mallory wasn't into you, you just freak out on her (on the first day?)

After that first episode I utterly despised Adam. I detest cruelty.

On 2/19/2022 at 2:06 PM, ljenkins782 said:

Ugh, I was not a fan of Christina at all and especially not of her egg analogies. She just seemed to find herself much more adorable and quirky than I do and her long-winded, high maintenance list of requirements for her ideal man were so tiresome. Also, she was genuinely dumb as a brick and I have a low tolerance for that, especially when they're people who attempt to use bigger words or who just talk endlessly and expose their ignorance continuously, I struggle with those people

Also, KellyAnne from the Sydney season has publicly accused Adam of raping or taking advantage of her while she was drunk and bragging about it to others, so the redemption arc Adam received later on in the challenges are negated by that because I believe her. 

The egg thing was apparently a reference to/imitation of something from a movie--I can't remember which one (a rom-com of some kind, I believe. I remember someone calling it out on TWoP.

And 100% believe Adam would do that to an incapacitated woman.

On 2/20/2022 at 4:03 PM, Bastet said:

He has a raging sense of Nice Guy entitlement to women in the nearly dozen episodes I have watched so far.  He never had a "hot girl" in high school or college and didn't have sex until he was 22, so he's on a quest to hook up with every woman he meets - to the point all the roommates talk about it - and gets creepy angry when they're not interested.  With one, he wrote a song about being pissed off at spending money and not getting a kiss (mind you, he hadn't even known her a week yet).

His dad is one of the Commodores--I'm sure that helped his sense of entitlement. Ugh, he was so repellant.

On 2/20/2022 at 9:18 PM, Bastet said:

Holy shit, CT is total rage case.  His Neanderthal routine with the guy from the bar and with Adam was insane, and why the hell didn't producers send him home?  Because Adam didn't ask them to?  He shouldn't have to.  You don't get to physically attack a roommate and and continue getting housing and air time.

And I wonder if Leah actually knew what had happened she was bonding with CT over their city folk code of always having your roommate's back?  Adam was supposed to get into a physical fight - risking injury and/or arrest - because ... Adam got cussed at by a guy he bumped into in a bar?  Fuck that noise.

CT's reaction to any conflict is to yell, threaten, and even punch.

CT absolutely should've been sent home. What a nut case.

On 2/21/2022 at 1:36 PM, ljenkins782 said:

The season was a bit of a dud because they were living so far out of the city. From cast interviews, it seems like they were bored and broke most of the time and getting into the city was expensive and difficult. No matter how big and fancy the house was, it was apparently messy and gross most of the time and they got tired of it. And their hot tub was never cleaned and got super nasty by the end, they overchlorinated it to kill the funk and it was burning people's skin. Gross. 

What a shame--to be transported to Paris for free and yet be stuck in one of the bainlieux and not be able to get into the city easily. BMP should have enabled their commute. I was so envious of their job but yes, the season was kind of a dud, although I enjoyed Leah's Euromance with the Italian dude.

[choclatechip45]

This might be the creepiest cast with the guys commenting on Mallory's virginity and Adam's behavior and CT's behavior towards Christina. 

Mallory trying to get with Leah's 15 year old brother and thinking Christina who is in her mid 20s seriously wanted to get with a 15 year old.

The whole weird Christina/Ace cuddling sessions.

Looking back with a 2022 lense a lot of this behavior does not age well. 

[Teriyaki Terror]

On 6/8/2022 at 4:00 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

After that first episode I utterly despised Adam. I detest cruelty.

The egg thing was apparently a reference to/imitation of something from a movie--I can't remember which one (a rom-com of some kind, I believe. I remember someone calling it out on TWoP.

And 100% believe Adam would do that to an incapacitated woman.

His dad is one of the Commodores--I'm sure that helped his sense of entitlement. Ugh, he was so repellant.

CT absolutely should've been sent home. What a nut case.

What a shame--to be transported to Paris for free and yet be stuck in one of the bainlieux and not be able to get into the city easily. BMP should have enabled their commute. I was so envious of their job but yes, the season was kind of a dud, although I enjoyed Leah's Euromance with the Italian dude.

They looked like they slacked on their job for sure. It looked like a dream job. I would have left the house and found something to do. Production kicking me off the show is better than being trapped in the house. The Real World means being able to still live your life. 

[ljenkins782]

On 6/5/2023 at 12:18 PM, Teriyaki Terror said:

They looked like they slacked on their job for sure. It looked like a dream job. I would have left the house and found something to do. Production kicking me off the show is better than being trapped in the house. The Real World means being able to still live your life. 

I don't think it was that simple to just get out and do something. And getting kicked off the show means going home and not staying in Paris, so that wasn't the answer either. 

It sounds like they were well outside the city, without transportation, and broke most of the time. I don't know what the train situation is like outside the city, it may well have had to involve taxis to and from the train station just to get into Paris, that's not even getting into the logistics of the cameras and crew. 

As mentioned upthread, this was just a poorly planned season because it was a last-minute idea, so it was a missed opportunity all around. They would have done better even if they had just swapped out one cast member with a native French person, it would have given the others someone to turn to for questions and guidance on how to navigate the area plus someone to speak for the group since none of the others had time to learn French due to the last-minute switch in locations.

[Tatum]

On 6/8/2022 at 4:00 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

The egg thing was apparently a reference to/imitation of something from a movie--I can't remember which one (a rom-com of some kind, I believe. I remember someone calling it out on TWoP.

And 100% believe Adam would do that to an incapacitated woman.

The egg thing I am fairly sure is from Runaway Bride. Julia Roberts' character said she prefers her eggs to be prepared the same way as whatever guy she is with prefers. Richard Gere calls her out on this as it's a symptom of a larger problem in her life- glomming onto whatever personality her partner has and adopting it as her own. I think the point Christina was making is that a guy should ask his partner what she likes or thinks first before offering his own opinion. Maybe.

 

I believe Kelly Anne said she technically consented (ie she was conscious) but was seriously impaired, and Adam had been hitting on her nonstop while she was sober and she had rejected him each time, so he knew she was not interested. If not legally rape, seriously shitty, predatory, and disgusting behavior. Of course, with this crew, no one else saw it that way besides Kelly Anne. I haven't watched a recent episode of The Challenge since around 2017, so I hope with the #Metoo explosion and more talks about the general misogyny  that plagues our culture, the environment is a little safer for women now, but I can't bear to watch to find out.

On 6/21/2023 at 1:31 PM, ljenkins782 said:

I don't think it was that simple to just get out and do something. And getting kicked off the show means going home and not staying in Paris, so that wasn't the answer either. 

It sounds like they were well outside the city, without transportation, and broke most of the time. I don't know what the train situation is like outside the city, it may well have had to involve taxis to and from the train station just to get into Paris, that's not even getting into the logistics of the cameras and crew. 

As mentioned upthread, this was just a poorly planned season because it was a last-minute idea, so it was a missed opportunity all around. They would have done better even if they had just swapped out one cast member with a native French person, it would have given the others someone to turn to for questions and guidance on how to navigate the area plus someone to speak for the group since none of the others had time to learn French due to the last-minute switch in locations.

I didn't realize all this, but that all makes a lot of sense. What a disappointment for participants thinking they are getting a free trip to Paris, only to be stranded in a house most of the time. It does kind of crack me up though, B/M thinking, fuck these kids and their personal growth. I'm going to Paris!

[Tatum]

On 2/23/2022 at 7:20 PM, ljenkins782 said:

The Ace and Mallory relationship, ugh. I like Ace well enough, but he's definitely a man-child. So dating an 18 year old is on brand for him and she was too young to realize that his Peter Pan tendencies aren't a good thing. 

Omg, remember when he was talking to his over achieving girlfriend (who I believe was a full time student at Georgia Tech and working two jobs to cover her living expenses) back home, and whining about how he was the only person who "figured out" that you don't need to work 50 hours a week to enjoy your life? Like, he really thought his girlfriend was working 50 hour weeks (factoring in school and studying) because she thought it was the key to enjoying life?  Rather than simply a person who's grandma wasn't bankrolling her life and had to work to pay bills and get an education for a better job?

 

Now, I do remember an insider from the show saying his girlfriend had dumped him prior to him being cast on the show and then just happened to reconcile with him after he was cast and asked that she  visit him in Paris, and she pretty much dumped him immediately after she got her visit in, so perhaps she wasn't overly sympathetic either, but I can't judge her for breaking up with him in the first place. The show insider said that Ace was a really, really sweet guy but hung out with some jerky friends and took on their personality when he was with them (this was in response to a TWOP poster who had a nasty encounter with Ace and his friends in real life).

[ljenkins782]

22 hours ago, Tatum said:

The egg thing I am fairly sure is from Runaway Bride. Julia Roberts' character said she prefers her eggs to be prepared the same way as whatever guy she is with prefers. Richard Gere calls her out on this as it's a symptom of a larger problem in her life- glomming onto whatever personality her partner has and adopting it as her own. I think the point Christina was making is that a guy should ask his partner what she likes or thinks first before offering his own opinion. Maybe.

Eh, I can't imagine Christina drawing that kind of conclusion, she really was dim. It struck me more as "my guy should be so obsessed with me that he should know my very specific egg wishes because I'm adorable and irresistible." 

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I believe Kelly Anne said she technically consented (ie she was conscious) but was seriously impaired, and Adam had been hitting on her nonstop while she was sober and she had rejected him each time, so he knew she was not interested. If not legally rape, seriously shitty, predatory, and disgusting behavior. Of course, with this crew, no one else saw it that way besides Kelly Anne. I haven't watched a recent episode of The Challenge since around 2017, so I hope with the #Metoo explosion and more talks about the general misogyny  that plagues our culture, the environment is a little safer for women now, but I can't bear to watch to find out.

Adam's issues with women were on full display in this season, so this story does not surprise me a bit, nor does the fact that the others wouldn't see any problem with it. I also have not seen the challenge in many years and hope there's been some evolution in the attitudes, but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

Quote

I didn't realize all this, but that all makes a lot of sense. What a disappointment for participants thinking they are getting a free trip to Paris, only to be stranded in a house most of the time. It does kind of crack me up though, B/M thinking, fuck these kids and their personal growth. I'm going to Paris!

In fairness, the Paris decision was made because Mary-Ellis Bunim was dying and had always wanted a Paris season. I believe she passed either that year or the following. But they still could've made some better arrangements to help the kids have an experience outside the house. Frankly, I'm surprised the season wasn't even more tense, I can't imagine a worse scenario than being in another country where I don't speak the language, trapped in a house with people I just met, and no opportunity to get out on my own. 

Now that I think about it, I think in one of the books, Mallory said that she almost did get kicked out for avoiding the cameras. They served her with a letter saying she needed to change her behavior or leave. So ditching the cameras and exploring wasn't an option, apparently.

Quote

Omg, remember when he was talking to his over achieving girlfriend (who I believe was a full time student at Georgia Tech and working two jobs to cover her living expenses) back home, and whining about how he was the only person who "figured out" that you don't need to work 50 hours a week to enjoy your life? Like, he really thought his girlfriend was working 50 hour weeks (factoring in school and studying) because she thought it was the key to enjoying life?  Rather than simply a person who's grandma wasn't bankrolling her life and had to work to pay bills and get an education for a better job?

I totally forgot about her, she was way out of his league. Ace reminded me of a boyfriend I had at 18 who was also a Peter Pan type, the girl he dated after I dumped him was a bit like Ace's girlfriend, very smart and going places. I remember him telling me that this girl didn't care if he dug ditches because she cared about him (this was in a discussion about how he felt I looked down on his lack of ambition, etc.) Well, not surprisingly, that relationship crashed and burned too. These Peter Pan guys can be really fun and it can be a draw for more serious, driven women to have that light-hearted energy in their lives for awhile, but it definitely wears thin when you contemplate an actual life of bearing all responsibilities because they're too busy having fun. Ace's grandmother indulging his lifestyle certainly didn't help him understand how life actually works.