S01.E08: The Weep Of Surrender

[millennium]

1 hour ago, LadyIrony said:

The only women of the period that I know of who married or bred with Indians were captives, usually taken as children and adopted as part of the tribe.

I don’t know of any who did so by choice. 
 

Many people of that era had a problem with the idea of "miscegenation."   They weren't "aw shucks, ain't that the very picture of frontier romance" when confronted with the prospect of Caucasian women mating with Native Americans.   This attitude was depicted in the extreme in John Ford's "The Searchers," which is often cited as one of the greatest American films ever.   In the movie, Ethan (John Wayne) spends five years searching for his niece Debbie (Natalie Wood), who was abducted by Comanches as a young girl and brought into the tribe.   When Wayne finds Debbie, who is now a young teenager, she tells him she's a Comanche now, one of the wives of the chief, and to go home. 

But Ethan's not having it.   To quote Wikipedia:

Quote

The theme of miscegenation also runs through the film. Early on, Martin earns a sour look from Ethan when he admits to being one-eighth Cherokee. Ethan says repeatedly that he will kill his niece rather than have her live "with a buck", that "living with the Comanche ain't living". Even one of the film's gentler characters, Vera Miles's Laurie, tells Martin when he explains he must protect his adoptive sister, "Ethan will put a bullet in her brain. I tell you Martha would want him to." This outburst makes it clear that even the supposedly gentler characters hold the same fear of miscegenation.

The idea that Debbie has become one of the chief's wives is so appalling to Ethan that he actually does attempt to kill Debbie.   Only in the end does he relent and spare her.

Alan Lemay, author of The Searchers, researched 64 real-life cases of 19th-century child abductions in Texas. 

The main action of The Searchers takes place circa 1868-1873, not so very long before Rodeo Barbie came along.  I somewhat doubt public sentiment regarding Caucasian/Indian pairings changed much in that time, especially given Custer's demise in 1876, which seemed to galvanize the whole nation against the Indians of the West. 

Even if attitudes weren't as extreme as portrayed in The Searchers, I just can't imagine any 19th-century mother or father capitulating so easily when their only daughter announces she's marrying an Indian she met on the trail a few days earlier (UNLESS they are secretly happy to have someone take her off their hands.)

So, Taylor Sheridan, I say phooey.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by millennium

[LadyIrony]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

Many people of that era had a problem with the idea of "miscegenation."   They weren't "aw shucks, ain't that the very picture of frontier romance" when confronted with the prospect of Caucasian women mating with Native Americans.   This attitude was depicted in the extreme in John Ford's "The Searchers," which is often cited as one of the greatest American films ever.   In the movie, Ethan (John Wayne) spends five years searching for his niece Debbie (Natalie Wood), who was abducted by Comanches as a young girl and brought into the tribe.   When Wayne finds Debbie, who is now a young teenager, she tells him she's a Comanche now, one of the wives of the chief, and to go home. 

But Ethan's not having it.   To quote Wikipedia:

The idea that Debbie has become one of the chief's wives is so appalling to Ethan that he actually does attempt to kill Debbie.   Only in the end does he relent and spare her.

Alan Lemay, author of The Searchers, researched 64 real-life cases of 19th-century child abductions in Texas. 

The main action of The Searchers takes place circa 1868-1873, not so very long before Rodeo Barbie came along.  I somewhat doubt public sentiment regarding Caucasian/Indian pairings changed much in that time, especially given Custer's demise in 1876, which seemed to galvanize the whole nation against the Indians of the West. 

Even if attitudes weren't as extreme as portrayed in The Searchers, I just can't imagine any 19th-century mother or father capitulating so easily when their only daughter announces she's marrying an Indian she met on the trail a few days earlier (UNLESS they are secretly happy to have someone take her off their hands.)

So, Taylor Sheridan, I say phooey.

 

Sheridan has applied a very modern and romantic vision to the Wild West. It would have been far more likely that White men were mixing with Indian women than White women having open and consensual affairs with Indian Braves. In fact Elsa's whole openness about sex just wouldn't have happened back then from a girl of her social standing and upbringing - not with her parents so close anyway! She may well have run off at one point and worked the Saloons but certainly not with her parents approval. 

The Searcher's is a great film and more likely what it would have been like back then. There are stories of white boys being taken as well and turning Tribal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Lehmann they do not adjust so easily as it is depicted in Sheridan's vision where the cultural differences between Indians and Cowboys seems to be not so much. 

Here's another link about Whites who were taken captive. No happy stories https://listverse.com/2017/11/05/10-pioneer-children-abducted-by-native-americans-who-refused-to-go-home/

lol well perhaps her parents were hoping to offload her to the tribe? The way Elsa was going she was bound to fall pregnant to a cowboy or Indian somewhere along the line. Her mother seemed to know that she would be the one bringing up the baby had she had fallen pregnant to Ennis. Elsa would not be a good mother.

[SunnyBeBe]

Why did Elsa leave for Oregon instead of staying with the Native American man she was in love with?

[LadyIrony]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Why did Elsa leave for Oregon instead of staying with the Native American man she was in love with?

As far as I remember there really wasn't a big reason for it. She agrees to continue on with her family and then return to Sam afterwards. I thought that was another stupid decision in a series of stupid decisions. How would she even know Sam would still be there, let alone alive? 

[mythoughtis]

On 4/24/2022 at 9:03 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Why did Elsa leave for Oregon instead of staying with the Native American man she was in love with?

So that she would know where they had settled.  That way she could come back and visit them later.  As if that’s a trip you’d have made often back then 

Edited May 30, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Dowel Jones]

I am still boggled, as it were, on the party's decision to try and make for Oregon.  I get that they don't have a clear idea of how big the western mountains are, but you would think anyone around would have some idea of the local geography.  For instance, Fort Casper.  It had already been closed, according to Wiki, and the town itself wasn't settled until ~1887.  Yet, their plan is to bypass both Denver and Cheyenne, both established towns, to make Casper by winter.  Forget about free land; find shelter before it's too late.