A Show Critique: What Is Working? What Isn't?

[WendyCR72]

And most of all...why do you think so?

 

I'm hoping this can be a thread where both positive and negative critiques of the show at this point can be debated here in fun. Humor is a bonus.

 

Love, hate, everything in between...

 

What would you change? What should stay on course? Go for it here. Just be prepared for every idea and opinion.  :-)

[Cyranetta]

What works for me -- having a mix of humorous and dramatic episodes.

 

What does not work -- having a humorous episode that takes a hard right into tragic in the last few minutes (hi 623!). That was just a Frankenstein's monster.

[verdana]

- What works for me is Stana and Nathan's chemistry, which Marlowe is exceedingly lucky to have at his disposal, dumb luck or canny judgement on his part I can't decide which it was. I wish he would utilise it more than he does, that's what keeps me coming back every time. 

 

- Fun, fluff and the odd sprinkling of drama. Castle is a dramedy and at its best when being quirky, light and not taking itself too seriously.  Even the violence has a nice sheeny gloss over it. That suits me just fine on a Monday night after a first day back at work. 

 

- I know where the story is going. Marlowe's made it clear that the two main leads are based on him and his wife which means that I'm pretty safe in investing in a ship that's not going to sink. Castle's not going to become a great lover's tragedy you're looking at happy ever after. Having that security is a good thing, too many times I've got attached to couple's on shows only to watch them split up or die. It's nice to know on Castle there's fat chance of that happening as long as Marlowe's in charge.

 

- Likeable cast, even if they're not very well fleshed out as characters in many cases, I have a lot of goodwill towards them.

 

What doesn't:

 

- The cases. I wish the writers would tighten up the writing and make the cases more interesting especially considering that 90% if not more of the episode gets taken up with the COTW, it would certainly help my viewing experience. I used to enjoy them back in the days when the writing was sharper and more subtle but not any more. They're often boring, predictable, full of plot holes and/or confusing, too dependent on gimmicks or themes and I can often guess the killer almost straight away. I also don't care about the people involved and I sense Castle and Beckett don't much any more either, feels like they're going through things by rote now solving murder when it should mean something but it doesn't.

 

- Lack of continuity. Castle prefers stand alone episodes but it's increasingly difficult now Caskett are a couple for me to forget what happened like the characters do when they've just been through some terrible trauma like it's no big deal.  That's just weird and I find it difficult to invest in any serious story arcs they do when the repercussions are treated by the writers so cheaply. It's "only" TV but it has to be grounded in some sense of reality for me when it comes to emotional trauma and people don't just forget about it a week later.

 

- I don't like their dramatic outings much any more can be very hit or miss, especially the two parters. Suddenly Castle tries to be a totally different show as Marlowe pushes the boat out to prove his serious drama chops, those episodes don't sit well with the fun and fluff format they have going on the rest of the time.  It can be disconcerting, especially given the lack of continuity (see above).

 

- Last but by no means least, the lack of heat and sizzle between Castle and Beckett. It takes some kind of weird genius to let that evaporate but Marlowe managed it. I've seen married couples of fifty years showing more spark and passion for each other than Caskett currently exhibit and they're not even married yet.

Edited August 5, 2014 by verdana

[oberon55]

Verdana said it better than I could.

 

 

- What works for me is Stana and Nathan's chemistry, which Marlowe is exceedingly lucky to have at his disposal, dumb luck or canny judgement on his part I can't decide which it was. I wish he would utilise it more than he does, that's what keeps me coming back every time.

 

What doesn't work is the lack of cohesiveness in their own story. I admit to being a nitpicker but I really hate it when a show contradicts itself. Here's an example of a meaningless detail where they took me out of the story by simply not following their own rules.

 

At the end of s3 Beckett goes to Montgomery & tells him she wants Castle gone. Montgomery says fine he's gone. Beckett questions if he can override the mayor & Montgomery basically says he's the boss of his house & could have kicked Castle out anytime but he let him stay because he thought it was good for her.

 

Now fast forward to s4. Gates wants Castle out of the precinct but the mayor forces her to let him stay. This flies in the face of the previous scene so I have to make shit up to explain it.

 

My theories:

1. Montgomery lied to Beckett & was powerless to make Castle leave. (no idea why he would do this)
2. Gates pretended the mayor forced her to let Castle stay just like Montgomery. (still no idea why she would do this)
3. Montgomery was more powerful than Gates & could defy the mayor where she can't. (possible but undermines Gates as a character)

 

I know this is a small thing but Castle shadowing Beckett is the foundation the show is based on and they can't even be bothered to keep the details straight. To me this shows a total disregard for continuity or internal logic. That's how we end up with things like disappearing rings, forgotten marriages or Sully gone from one episode to another without a single word. It's just bad story telling.

Edited August 5, 2014 by oberon55

[verdana]

They've never been that good on keeping things straight and it's got worse as the show gets older and more information gets piled on without seemingly much care being taken. Beckett's past (especially her college years) I find is getting to be a real hotchpotch. She's been a busy girl. It really does pay to have a short term memory watching this show.  

Edited August 5, 2014 by verdana

[Nadine]

They've never been that good on keeping things straight and it's got worse as the show gets older and more information gets piled on without seemingly much care being taken. Beckett's past (especially her college years) I find is getting to be a real hotchpotch. She's been a busy girl. It really does pay to have a short term memory watching this show.  

The thing that makes me laugh is they perfectly could put together a murder board for her mother but keeping a tab on some of the stuff Beckett's past, yeah that totally doesn't work at times.

[KaveDweller]

Beckett's past (especially her college years) I find is getting to be a real hotchpotch. She's been a busy girl. It really does pay to have a short term memory watching this show. 

 

Is it really that busy?  Slightly contradictory, yes, but not really busy.  I kind of like the contradictory, because it shows that people aren't stereotypes, but because they only ever mention things in passing it can seem a bit random.  Many things on the show are random, which can certainly be annoying.

 

In high school she had a "wild child" phase, and she skipped her prom to go to a poetry slam.  She also worked in high school to buy her motorcycle and must have been a good student, because she got into Stanford.

 

Her freshman year in college she was a Nebula Nine fan girl and then she accidentally got married while drunk in Vegas (which feels ridiculous to even type). At some point after her mom died she transferred to NYU and spent a summer in Russia.  She also must have worked somewhere, because she said she in Number One Fan she hadn't been out of work since she was 16.  If you take out the stupid wedding, I don't see anything to unbelievable about all that happening.  

 

We also know she moved in with a guy at one point, and my guess was during college, but that wasn't stated for sure.  It was surprising to hear about, but more because of her relationship history, not because of lack of time.

Edited August 6, 2014 by KaveDweller

[Oly]

I just enjoy the show--I am a longtime Nathan Fillion fan and I love the basic ensemble (although I still miss Roy) I don't care if I never see another show or hear another mention of Beckett's mother's murder---sick of that and a few other recurring story lines---move on to fresh and new stuff---more Lanie would be nice--and Espo and Alexis needs to show more growth since the disaster that was Pi---hope they get out of this dumb wedding fiasco in one or two episodes---

[oberon55]

For me it is just confusing story telling. They want their cake and to eat it too. They want her obsessed & single minded since her mom was killed. They want us to feel sad because she had to miss out on her young adulthood because of her father's alcoholism. But at the same time they want her worldly & experienced. Unless all these things happened before she was 19 that rabbit hole she went down was not very deep. On one hand we are told mom's case consumed her and on the other we are told she was actually having a pretty full life. So which was she? A bitter driven woman looking for justice or a comic book reading motor cycle driving model looking for a good time in Russia.

[femmefan1946]

and I can often guess the killer almost straight away.

 

The routine is that the killer is one of those seen between minute 12 and minute 17.

Early on, the killer might not show up until near the 25 minute break or even for just a glimpse in the first eight or ten minutes. But now? Routine.

 

We also know she moved in with a guy at one point, and my guess was during college, but that wasn't stated for sure.  It was surprising to hear about, but more because of her relationship history, not because of lack of time.

 

Really? In the course of the show, Beckett has had more acknowledged lovers than Castle, who has been almost celibate. Including relatively long term relationships with Denham and Motorcycle Boy.  And setting up a home when one has lost a parent would be a reasonable defensive move, not to mention that many people have "college spouses", whether the relationship continues later or not.

But, hey, I still have trouble with 'dating' now meaning 'sleeping with' and 'fiance' meaning 'commonlaw spouse'.

[verdana]

and I can often guess the killer almost straight away.

 

The routine is that the killer is one of those seen between minute 12 and minute 17.

Early on, the killer might not show up until near the 25 minute break or even for just a glimpse in the first eight or ten minutes. But now? Routine.

 

Yeah and that's the problem I can go away and do something else come back at a set time and know exactly what stage we're at with the murder.  Have they finished interviewing red herring suspect 1, 2 or 3 yet? There's always usually about three to get through which is yet more pointless case exposition time when they could cut some of that out and concentrate on making me care about the victim for a change.

 

It's got too formulaic, I'd like them to mix up a bit more and since Castle and Beckett are often not interviewing suspects together much any more I'd love those pointless interviews to get cut short or some of them disappear altogether. I just switch off now when I see Beckett or Espo/Ryan interviewing, part of the enjoyment was watching Castle precisely because he wasn't a cop interacting with Kate and the suspect. It would also be interesting if just once they couldn't solve the case like in RL, give them something to think about - failure on the job. 

 

And is it me or are the guest stars not so memorable as they were in the early days or is that the writing?  Now it's all a big blur and some of the acting has been bad. There were a few last season that had me wincing with embarrassment at their performances. The only two I remember with any clarity is the woman in No 1 Fan and the doctor in Disciple. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

A bitter driven woman looking for justice or a comic book reading motor cycle driving model looking for a good time in Russia.

 

I think the point is that she changed when her mom died.  And I think the change happened slowly.  She didn't drop out of school or anything, she just changed her career goals.  Then after she became a cop and had access to police files that she got all obsessed about Johanna's case.  And she did manage to put the case behind her at one point before she ever met Castle, so she wasn't obsessed that whole time.  She was dedicated to her job, but I don't think they ever claimed she had zero life outside the precinct.

 

However, the problem is that I don't think they really think this hard about her character. They just say, "Hmm, a super hereo case? Let's have Beckett talk about comic books." Or, "A fairy tale theme? What if we say Castle knows about fairy tale role playing from his research? That can explain away anything and will make Beckett role her eyes. It's perfect!"

 

Really? In the course of the show, Beckett has had more acknowledged lovers than Castle, who has been almost celibate. Including relatively long term relationships with Denham and Motorcycle Boy.  And setting up a home when one has lost a parent would be a reasonable defensive move, not to mention that many people have "college spouses", whether the relationship continues later or not.

 

I don't think she's had more acknowledged lovers than Castle.  We know she was with Will before the show started, then since than Demming and Josh.  And I guess she slept with her husband before the show started too.

 

Before the show started we know Castle slept with Gina, Meredith, Kiera, his agent, and his interior decorator (I think).  Then since the show started he was with Gina and Meredith again, plus that actress in S2 and most likely Jacinda.  It's also been acknowledged on the show that he has been with a lot of women, although I guess we don't really know what that means.

 

Not that it is a contest or I am calling either of them a slut.  I think it was more contradictory because we know Beckett was keeping her foot out of the door when it came to relationships, unless it happened when she was really young.

[McManda]

Really? In the course of the show, Beckett has had more acknowledged lovers than Castle, who has been almost celibate. Including relatively long term relationships with Denham and Motorcycle Boy.  And setting up a home when one has lost a parent would be a reasonable defensive move, not to mention that many people have "college spouses", whether the relationship continues later or not.

 

I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly with this.

 

Beckett's been with - that we know of - [wasn't there a guy in highschool that smelled like cloves?,] Rogan, Will, Demming, and Josh, and kissed (forcibly or not) Eric Vaughn, and maybe shared drinks with Colin Hunt, and half-shared a meal with firefighter Brad Decker. I think that's it? Oh, and the guy that cheated on her, though we never really got details on that. And she arguably could have had a relationship with Royce. We can extrapolate from there - she probably slept with Josh, and probably Will (did they live together or is that fanfic lore?). I think Demming is debatable because I don't think they dated all that long. Definitely not with Eric Vaughn or Brad Decker, and probably not with Colin Hunt. That's not really a long dating history.

 

Castle, on the other hand, has been married twice - to Meredith and Gina. He had a long term college relationship with Kyra. He's slept with his (unnamed) decorator, Paula, maybe flight attendant Jacinda, plus probably more. And he's kissed a whole slew of women - Scarlett (the-call-girl-turned-murderer), Natalie Rhodes, Christina Coterra, the Japanese hostess - and that's just who we know of. I'm positive there are more (and I kinda think I missed some we've seen).

 

Like KaveDweller, that's not meant to shame. I just don't think Castle is any more celibate than Beckett. In all honesty, I think it's fairly even.

 

 

But, hey, I still have trouble with 'dating' now meaning 'sleeping with' and 'fiance' meaning 'commonlaw spouse'.

 

I also disagree with this. You can be dating and not sleeping with, or dating and sleeping with, or sleeping with and not dating, but in my experience "dating" does not automatically equate to "sleeping with". And I think I personally know of maybe two couples that were/are engaged longer than a year (and maybe some change) without getting married, so I'd argue that fiancee doesn't equate to common-law spouse, either.

[oberon55]

According to Marlowe Beckett always had the moral high ground when it came to past relationships. It's a good thing they took her sanctimonious ass down a peg or two in the finale. Now she's almost as big a fool as Castle. That’s the way I like the leads in a show I watch. Just 2 idiots circling the drain together. Don't forget the CIA traitor is on Castle's list & also the first guy Beckett lived with.

[Snoopy]

What's working:

The precinct ensemble. Beckett/Castle/Espo/Ryan all have great chemistry together and I find the precinct/investigation scenes fun for the most part. I think they've even found a good place for Gates.

Having Castle and Beckett in a committed relationship is good..,after 4 years of WT/WT I'm glad that their relationship is solid. They seem like a loving and committed couple to me in most scenes.

A majority of light-hearted episodes with a peppering of more personal dramatic ones.

What they could work on:

Underused characters: Martha, Alexis, Lanie. Martha and Alexis used to be used throughout episodes for both a sounding board for Castle but also for fun. They are usually used to help Castle solve relationship problems or, in Alexis' case, to create even more drama. Lanie, who could be used as a great way to show another side of Beckett, has been reduced to a bit character with hardly any lines beyond dead body information. I'd like to see a return to funny, saucy, friend-to-Beckett Lanie.

Strict Procedural Format: I'm fairly certain this is an intentional choice on the writers' part (for whatever reason), but I'd love it if they added more continuity between episodes. If they want to have these big dramatic episodes and "mythology", they should be at least mentioning the emotional impact of events here and there. Nothing major, but things like mentioning how Alexis is feeling after being kidnapped would be nice...and not several episodes later. I know time is limited, but they could tighten up the cases a bit more (fewer twists and red herrings) and have time for some of the more personal stuff.

Castle/Beckett's "spark": While I have no problem with their relationship as a whole, I do miss the flirting, theory building, and sexy banter between them. We get it here and there, but much of it has been replaced by relationship/wedding talk. Love that too but think it could be balanced a bit better. I'm one of the few that don't really need to see anymore physical contact between them (kissing, sexy times), but I'd just like to see the verbal spark a bit more.

[verdana]

Underused characters: Martha, Alexis, Lanie. Martha and Alexis used to be used throughout episodes for both a sounding board for Castle but also for fun. They are usually used to help Castle solve relationship problems or, in Alexis' case, to create even more drama. Lanie, who could be used as a great way to show another side of Beckett, has been reduced to a bit character with hardly any lines beyond dead body information. I'd like to see a return to funny, saucy, friend-to-Beckett Lanie.

Strict Procedural Format: I'm fairly certain this is an intentional choice on the writers' part (for whatever reason), but I'd love it if they added more continuity between episodes. If they want to have these big dramatic episodes and "mythology", they should be at least mentioning the emotional impact of events here and there. Nothing major, but things like mentioning how Alexis is feeling after being kidnapped would be nice...and not several episodes later. I know time is limited, but they could tighten up the cases a bit more (fewer twists and red herrings) and have time for some of the more personal stuff.

 

Yeah lets have more development of the secondary cast pretty please with sugar coated sprinkles on top. It's almost embarrassing how little the cast have to do aside from Stana and Nathan. Seamus said it very well, his character is there to give case exposition and support Caskett and not for character development, that was a pretty damning statement I thought but true and it applies to all of them.

 

I'm sure it is intentional but the lack of continuity is a frustrating. I still can't get over Alexis being kidnapped and the following week Castle especially is acting like it never happened and we don't even see Alexis. And it wasn't even a couple of episodes, they didn't talk about it all until right at the end of the season in Watershed and then only in passing by that point I couldn't care less since the writers couldn't be arsed to bring it up until then. Do I have to believe that the writers couldn't spare one lousy line out of the COTW exposition to inform the audience how she's coping after her ordeal?  Or was shopping in Paris after her salvation enough to do the trick?  They could have even had Caskett discuss Alexis having nightmares or something as a pointer towards the emotional repercussions but instead they ignore it completely, been there done that.  

Edited August 7, 2014 by verdana

[madmaverick]

Or was shopping in Paris after her salvation enough to do the trick?

 

Excuse me for bringing fashion critique into this thread but that ostentatious animal print coat Alexis was wearing as she came home after a kidnapping ordeal and near death experience (!) was a real distraction in that scene.  In a bad way!  Should have been focused on Castle and Alexis' emotional homecoming but instead I was distracted by 'what on earth is she wearing?!'.  Least appropriate outerwear ever for the character in those circumstances.  Luke should have gone for subdued and understated if he was trying to communicate the character visually.

Edited August 8, 2014 by madmaverick

[verdana]

mad maverick. Heh that coat, it was distracting that's what I was thinking about! I thought she must have gone shopping before getting back on the plane... or did he bring the coat with him figuring she would need a change of clothes? I didn't want to start thinking about it in the midst of an emotional conversation between father and daughter but that's where that coat took me as soon as I saw it.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcY_IYrb6pM

 

Although may be Luke was trying to show that Alexis is getting her fashion taste from Martha.  

Edited August 8, 2014 by verdana

[La Tortuga]

Castle becoming Kate's best friend as opposed to Lanie works for me, because 1) it's great to be married to your best friend, and I like how Castle and Beckett interact as friends, 2) in the real world, some women stay best friends when one of them enters a relationship, but sometimes they don't, and that's just life, 3) Lanie's role as best friend was primarily to listen to Kate complain about how annoyed she was at Castle for existing, making the friendship kind of one-sided in Kate's favor, and 4) Tamala Jones had lots of other projects to work on, and I don't begrudge her the chance to take on new, hopefully challenging work just so she can continue to be a minor character on someone else's show.

 

The cliffhanger season finales on this show do not work for me. They just come across as ridiculous, last minute twists that have nothing to do with the episode we've just watched. I fear that most of network TV likes to handle its season finales this way, and it just makes me want to pull out my hair in frustration.

 

The thing I absolutely LOVED, though, was the pyromaniac episode, when Ryan and Esposito were trapped in a burning building while Jenny was giving birth. Seamus Dever was great in that one, and for once, the whole world didn't revolve around Castle and Beckett and their relationship.

[verdana]

The Lanie/Kate friendship I agree is totally one sided, Lanie is used as this glorified sounding board for Kate and her issues over Castle. However, it would have been nice if just occasionally Kate listened to Lanie instead which would have been a good way of getting to know a little more about her.  But now Caskett are happy together, Lanie serves no purpose whatsoever and she's just a deliverer of medical exposition for a few seconds at the start of the show.  I do hope Tamala has other projects she's working on or something to keep her occupied because she must be bored as hell. The writers have failed to develop these characters into fully rounded human beings with their own lives and stories over the years and boy does it show, they tend to serve one purpose only and when that disappears the writers are at a total loss as to what do with them, Lanie is a prime example of that.  

 

Molly and Susan have suffered too in similar ways, Susan used to have more to do with her own little storyline like Chet or the theatre group, at least it looked like she had a life but she was also used for Castle to have as his sounding board to talk about Kate and how we has feeling and this gave the audience a window into his feelings and motivations.  But now they're together that doesn't happen much any more and although it's good to see Caskett finally being more open with each other as normal couples should, Susan's been kind of brushed aside into this bit part wedding advice giver or used for brief comic relief.

 

As for Molly she's been an obvious problem in that they've admitted they can't think of what to do with her unless she's in the loft. Her usefulness has gone. In the very early days she was there to show the other side of Castle, the warm, caring, considered father both to the audience and Beckett. She was also another sounding board for dad and there was some touching moments between them which I really loved which developed both characters. Then she has to grow up of course and leave the nest and that's where they hit their biggest problem, they had no idea how to in merge her developing adult life with Castle's world and certainly not with Beckett's. So she got stranded and then saddled with awful plots. Clearly Molly must be tied into a contract that means she has to appear for a certain number of episodes each season and that explains their problem and her popping up in odd ways that often don't fit with the story that's being told.

 

If Castle does continue past S7 I hope the writers see sense and reduce her appearances down because they clearly don't have any use for her any more and either don't have the inclination or ability to do anything about it. Sadly Alexis is now seen as more of an annoying and divisive presence on the show by quite a few fans and that's unfortunate but it's the writer's own fault.  

Edited August 14, 2014 by verdana

[La Tortuga]

About Alexis: one the one hand, I can see that the writers just don't know what to do with her, but that's a consistent problem writers on a lot of shows have with a lot of secondary characters, and on this show Alexis is now a tertiary character. On the other hand, I can see how having your adult kids move back in with you IS annoying. They pop up when you're trying to be alone, they make noise, they ask you for things, rides, whatever, sometimes they want family interaction and sometimes they don't, and some of your plans and budgeting have to be adjusted around their schedules and needs. So in that respect, it's realistic that Alexis would just sort of pop up at random moments. She has her own stuff going on because she's the star in her own life.

 

The problem is that the writers just don't know what that stuff is, or how to include it in a show that has become entirely wrapped up in Kate and Beckett. I think their idea is to give each character an episode where we get to peek into deeper aspects of that person's life, while the long-term storytelling is reserved for the primary characters. So we get one episode where Alexis and Castle save a guy on death row, and we get one episode where Ryan and Esposito nearly die in a fire, and that's about it, because the show was never intended to be about the ensemble cast anyway.

[verdana]

I find it difficult to get invested in those episodes where they do focus on one of the secondary cast because I'm not interested in the character enough precisely because they haven't been developed properly with consistent stories or at least something happening which gets brought up occasionally. Concentrating on Ryan or Gates for one episode and then forgetting about them until the next season doesn't work if you want me to care. Although Under Fire was okay because for once Castle and Beckett weren't relegated to bit part players which is what used to happen in the past when they would focus on the secondary cast. 

 

I'm intrigued as to whether Castle will have the longevity of other shows where they're happy to spread the load around and create stories using the secondary cast more. It already looks as if everyone is running on the vapours at the end of each season and if they don't try and make some changes soon I sense Marlowe's going to have a problem. Obviously if everyone decides to call it a day in S7 then it doesn't matter but if they do manage to continue how much longer are Stana and Nathan going to want to be front and centre working 14 hour days? Or Seamus being content to deliver boring case exposition? But I think it's too late to do anything about it even if they wanted to make changes, the fans have a low tolerance level for anything other than Castle and Beckett related so trying to get them interested more in Lanie, Espo etc is going to be tough ask after six seasons of pretty much ignoring their personal lives and relationships.

Edited August 14, 2014 by verdana

[verdana]

About Alexis: one the one hand, I can see that the writers just don't know what to do with her, but that's a consistent problem writers on a lot of shows have with a lot of secondary characters, and on this show Alexis is now a tertiary character. On the other hand, I can see how having your adult kids move back in with you IS annoying. They pop up when you're trying to be alone, they make noise, they ask you for things, rides, whatever, sometimes they want family interaction and sometimes they don't, and some of your plans and budgeting have to be adjusted around their schedules and needs. So in that respect, it's realistic that Alexis would just sort of pop up at random moments. She has her own stuff going on because she's the star in her own life.

The issue I had with the writers having Alexis popping up at odd times previously was that it was just so ridiculous and forced that it took me out the episode completely for a time. A prime example was when she was stealing food from the fridge a few seasons back because she run out of money or something and got caught. It was obvious they had to squeeze an appearance in for Molly and that was all they could think of. She wasn't staying in the loft at the time admittedly but that was so dumb for the character and made no sense and yes it disrupted Caskett as they were kissing or about to kiss which was even more infuriating for the audience given how little they get to see of them doing that.

 

If they have Alexis repeating that pattern next season no matter how true to life it may be the writers will need to quickly find a bunker to hide in.

 

Then they had her playing detective for a time getting involved in cases, that was irritating and unbelievable for the most part and worse it tended to take away from Caskett because there must a rule written up in large bold letters in that writers room that Beckett and Alexis must not breathe the same air unless Castle is present as a buffer between them or it's an emergency situation.

Edited August 14, 2014 by verdana

[oberon55]

Everything does not always have to be life or death. It's the little details that give a character substance. Have Ryan talk about his baby or Esposito talk about anything in his life. Beckett & Lanie could talk about the price of gas. Anything to make them more than cardboard cutouts for Beckett & Castle to play off of. They don't have to delve that deep or dedicate a lot of screen time to solve this. All it would take is a few minutes of dialog every other episode to give this world a lot more texture.

[KaveDweller]

The Lanie/Kate friendship I agree is totally one sided, Lanie is used as this glorified sounding board for Kate and her issues over Castle. However, it would have been nice if just occasionally Kate listened to Lanie instead which would have been a good way of getting to know a little more about her.

That's a problem on a lot of shows. The lead's BFF only shows up to support the lead, not the other way around. Because Lanie doesn't have a storyline there's nothing for her to talk to Kate about. I did like that we saw her going to Kate when she had to autopsy that woman who was made to look like her.

The story lines with the secondary characters don't usually work for me though, unless they still give Caskett something decent to do.

[amensisterfriend]

There's a lot to like about this show, but I actually think the character definition is pretty poor overall. I still have absolutely no idea who Lanie is supposed to be, let alone get the (nonexistent!) nuances of her friendship with Beckett. (They have very little 'best friend' chemistry IMO and seem like vague acquaintances to me more often than not, though I know we're not supposed to feel that way!) Esposito ranges from being pointlessly annoying to not having any purpose or definition at all. Ryan is underwritten as well, though I happen to like the actor, which kind of automatically makes the character more likable to me.

 

Castle was the best written character for me for the first four seasons or so...if only by sad default ;) I actually think he's a good mixture of clear strengths and flaws even when sometimes they forgot about the former and overplayed the latter. Since then he's been less vibrant, charming, interesting and just plain alive though, as others have noted, that may have as much to do with dwindling enthusiasm on the part of the actor as with the actual writing.

 

I particularly want SO much to like and relate to Kate for a variety of reasons, and I sometimes can when I fanwank her in just the right way :) But mostly I find myself sadly agreeing with something that TV.com's Alex Navarro wrote back when he was dissecting S4:

 

 

 

... Beckett, whose sole character traits more or less amount to a traumatic family history, a gruff demeanor that only Castle can melt away, and a borderline insane need to constantly deride Castle's silly theories as implausible, even when Castle is very clearly saying things he knows are implausible because they're funny.

 

I'm all for cerebral, introverted characters and had high hopes that Kate would be a favorite of mine, but she rarely comes across as 'complex' and relatably layered like she's supposed to be IMO---instead, she's just kind of plastic and one-dimensional and unrealistically awesome at everything and anything that the writers need her to be in any given episode. And it's true that in lieu of giving the character actual depth and personality, they seemed to just define her by a past trauma that she experienced while making her the typical 'tough yet vulnerable!' female law enforcement agent we've seen on a million other shows. Oh, well...I watch the show mostly for the dialogue, often lame but strangely (to me!) engaging mysteries and the aspects of Rick Castle that I enjoy, and Kate (and the other poorly defined characters) don't generally actively annoy me, with a few notable exceptions---they just aren't a fraction as well defined as I wish they were! 

Edited August 11, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[verdana]

The character development especially with the secondary characters has always been pretty weak and it's got much worse in the latter seasons. When you have fans celebrating a fist bump between Alexis and Kate and calling it "significant" or a mime act between them a "fantastic" moment which proved how great their relationship is that's embarrassing but unfortunately its the level they've reached and fans have to take any scraps they can. I agree with you amensisterfriend about Beckett although don't try suggesting that to the fangirls on tumblr lol. The writers have ensured she ticks every box going to appeal to as many as possible. It's so obvious that's what they've been doing in the latter seasons, she was far better drawn to me in the earlier days when the character showed real promise for some nuanced character development but to many back then she seemed less likeable and attractive but I found her way more sympathetic and relatable back then.

 

As for Castle he seems to have turned into a sexless clumsy goof and Fillion is playing up the slapstick humor too much for my taste. Castle S7 is a far cry from the man he was back in the early days and I can't say it feels like a natural progression and it saddens me, he was my favourite character and now I find myself sympathising with Beckett wondering why the hell she married this guy because if I'm honest I don't find much about him attractive any more character wise. I don't even find him that funny (which is meant to be Nathan's area).

 

I wish Castle could get back some of his former cool suaveness, sensitivity and cocky confidence back that he used to show people (especially Beckett) but Castle being a goofball seems to be what makes a lot of fans laugh and why they enjoy the show based on what I've heard so I'm in the minority on that one. Some fans even don't think has been any change in him but honestly how they can't see his metamorphosis beats me.  That said Fillion can coast on his underlying charm and charisma as Castle and still make it work some days and when he really wants to bring it he can which probably annoys me even more but the writing doesn't often allow that and probably he's not as invested these days in the show which doesn't help.

Edited August 12, 2015 by verdana

[amensisterfriend]

One thing I think the show really missed the opportunity to explore once they started dating was the idea that despite their underlying commonalities and bond, Castle and Beckett were (or could have been, if they had stuck with the initial premise!) from different worlds---Castle is wealthy, educated at prep schools, the son of a glitzy, melodramatic actress, used to be involved with socialites and a very 'highbrow', glitzy NYC life etc. Beckett was (initially and in my own fanwanks at least) highly intelligent but in an entirely different way, a very savvy, clever woman who chose to become an NYPD detective over more extensive formal education and a more lucrative, prestigious career, who directly experienced the rough stuff that Castle and his ilk reads and writes about, who was a little endearingly awkward and had little tolerance for the phony polish and small talk that prevails among Castle's social set---etc.

 

The problem is that by then they had made Beckett a more polished, socially graced fashion plate who possessed all the esoteric knowledge anyone could ever hope for and was totally at ease in every type of setting. Whenever they talked about how "different" and "more complex" she was than the type of woman Castle was usually around, I  started to wonder how---post-S3 or so she seemed pretty much identical IMO. And by the time they started dating, Castle himself didn't have much of a non-Kate life for her to fit into anyway. Alexis was off to college and already knew Kate well. We already know that Martha loved by her then and that Kate's colleagues love Castle, so there was really no humorous and interesting conflict left to be mined form merging their lives and wondering the degree to which they could or should change to accommodate the differences in their worlds...just another reason why the show runners should have had them get together earlier on, I suppose :)   

Edited August 12, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[KaveDweller]

The problem is that by then they had made Beckett a more polished, socially graced fashion plate who possessed all the esoteric knowledge anyone could ever hope for and was totally at ease in every type of setting. Whenever they talked about how "different" and "more complex" she was than the type of woman Castle was usually around, I  started to wonder how---post-S3 or so she seemed pretty much identical IMO. And by the time they started dating, Castle himself didn't have much of a non-Kate life for her to fit into anyway. Alexis was off to college and already knew Kate well. We already know that Martha loved by her then and that Kate's colleagues love Castle, so there was really no humorous and interesting conflict left to be mined form merging their lives and wondering the degree to which they could or should change to accommodate the differences in their worlds...just another reason why the show runners should have had them get together earlier on, I suppose :)

I don't think the problem was in Kate's characterization, because I don't think she's ever been presented as someone who's at ease in any situation. I think she's consistently been shown to be confident and at ease when she's working, but gets awkward in more personal social situations. The problem is that they hardly ever show either of them out of work, so we don't get to explore this. We got a little of this at the beginning of S5 when Kate felt awkward at the Hamptons house and how she didn't want to spend Christmas with Castle. But that's about all we ever saw of them out of work. There was so much they could have explored after they got together that they missed out on. Imagine Kate meeting Castle's writer poker buddies?

[verdana]

who was a little endearingly awkward and had little tolerance for the phony polish and small talk that prevails among Castle's social set---etc.

The problem is that by then they had made Beckett a more polished, socially graced fashion plate who possessed all the esoteric knowledge anyone could ever hope for and was totally at ease in every type of setting. Whenever they talked about how "different" and "more complex" she was than the type of woman Castle was usually around, I  started to wonder how---post-S3 or so she seemed pretty much identical IMO.

 

 

When Castle in S1 first set eyes on adorably awkward, slightly dorky, intelligent, sharp but vulnerable Detective Kate Beckett I could why he he was fascinated because she was a world away from the supermodel sophisticate types he was by then fed up with dating. It was therefore amusing to see Beckett gradually acquire the kind of attributes that if he'd met this later version in the pilot I suspect Castle would have quickly bedded and then both would have politely moved on.

 

I've always enjoyed their differences, pity they never bothered to explore this aspect properly but then they missed pretty much endless opportunities to explore interesting things about their relationship during the course of the show, too late now of course Beckett is far more sophisticated, fashionable and knowledgeable in just about every department and it's Castle that looks like he needs every scrap of advice going from fashion to the social graces lol. 

 

 

[Guest]

I think they took too much away from each main character and that isn't working.

Kate seems to have lost her spark, a lot of her wit, her propensity to stand up for herself in a lot of ways.

Castle doesn't write that we see. He's no longer a consultant shadowing Beckett; he's referred to as her partner.

I feel they've fallen into the "bigger is better" trap where instead of a well-written one-off murder, everything is a huge plot tied to childhood trauma for one of them. Killers basically become super villains who can do anything in the world. They recycle plots. I miss original mysteries like the one where strangers on a train traded off murders. That was unexpected, but not so far out there.

[Tim]

My own pet peeve is that it seems Rob Bowman is afraid of light.  Everyone or at least the majority of his episodes are so dark you have trouble making out the characters.  Spend the salary you saved on PJJ on Lights this season PLEASE

[Blackrock1]

If Alexis is going to become a focal point, she should be more relatable as a young woman. Explore the impact of having a mother who abandoned her. Give her some self doubt about her lack of traction in life. Break her down. Crack that polished vase that she has become and humanize her. Let her have some big blowout with Beckett and discover that they both share loss in their lives. Please PLEASE have her stop calling Beckett "Beckett". That's her cop name. To Alexis, she should be Kate (IMO).

I think that Molly Quinn definitely has the acting chops to pull off a character who is far more likeable than what they have created. Alexis, as written, is too good to be true, if you overlook that she has no friends and spends all of her free time with her Dad and her Gram. One last thing...that line, in 8x01 about college courses.... Something like "pffft, I have that under control" ? As if it were nothing. That right there is why I can't like Alexis. She never has to struggle.

[femmefan1946]

Give her some self doubt about her lack of traction in life.

 

Perfect. All that glossy enamel over a scared child.

Not just losing her mother (and her first stepmother) but the kidnappings of herself and of her father. We got a tiny glimpse of the latter at least.

[KaveDweller]

I had this idea recently that in S5 they should have had Alexis decided she wanted to learn self defense and go to Beckett to teach her to shoot a gun.  It would have been a realistic reaction from Alexis about being kidnapped and it would have given Beckett and Alexis bonding time. They could even have generated some realistic conflict with Castle/Beckett if he didn't want Alexis learning something like that. Or give Alexis a little PTSD and get Beckett's advice about that.  

 

I know that's from 3 seasons ago, but the thought just popped into my head on the train the other day.

[verdana]

If Alexis is going to become a focal point, she should be more relatable as a young woman.

 

I just want to like her again because right now she pushes every wrong button, they need to let her fail at some things, instead of always being right and ignoring her dad. This is the girl that went back to give some money to a shop owner because a friend stole something and now she's casually forging her dads' signature on her intern slip to get what she wants and telling him about it as an afterthought. Ugh I hate that they've made her so plot driven these days, at the start she seemed natural and charming and she was allowed to make mistakes and most importantly learn from them with the guidance from her father. They could write the child but they can't write her as a young woman I want to watch. They could start by having Alexis and Kate talk to each other and do the odd social thing together, I'm interested in Beckett so pair them up if Molly has to have more screen time. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

I had this idea recently that in S5 they should have had Alexis decided she wanted to learn self defense and go to Beckett to teach her to shoot a gun.  It would have been a realistic reaction from Alexis about being kidnapped and it would have given Beckett and Alexis bonding time. They could even have generated some realistic conflict with Castle/Beckett if he didn't want Alexis learning something like that. Or give Alexis a little PTSD and get Beckett's advice about that.  

 

I know that's from 3 seasons ago, but the thought just popped into my head on the train the other day.

There were so many missed opportunities in terms of how they could have deepened the relationship between Alexis and Beckett, or Alexis and Caskett.  Sometimes I think they're not too keen on exploring the messy, more complicated stuff with secondary characters, or putting them in an extended arc with the leads (burnt by the Pi arc?).  Their approach to secondary characters seems to be give them some extra attention in the occasional episode, tick them off the list, and that's that.  There's no room in how they structure the episodes and the season for extended repercussions in their procedural framework.

 

KaveDweller's suggestion would have been an excellent story arc stemming from Alexis' kidnapping.  But when even something as monumental as a kidnapping is ready to be forgotten by the writers in the aftermath, you just know they sadly aren't interested in delving deeper into very realistic emotions.

 

I thought one of the most interesting emotional reactions we saw from Alexis was when she confronted her Dad over Beckett in 401.  Their whole conversation was interesting and it's a real shame they never followed up from that, when Caskett got together.

 

They have often made Alexis too perfect, too good at everything in a way in which Beckett and possibly the new character Hayley are at times.  Maybe because sometimes the desire to write strong female characters ends up Mary Suing them on the page?  But Alexis did suffer a big setback, at least I would consider that to be one for a girl of her age, when she didn't get into her dream college.  Especially when she's always been so good at school and confident that she could get into any school she wanted to.  That first, big rejection is tough for a young person to swallow.  I think we can all relate.  I liked that she went to her Dad for advice about how to deal with rejection and bounce back.  It's honest, vulnerable scenes like those that make me think Alexis still has something to contribute to the show.

 

Now that she's decided to give the PI thing a try, for novelty or for the thrill factor or for whatever reason a young person tries all sorts of things, I hope the writers can use the experience to teach Alexis more about human nature, even the darker side, and all the shades of grey out there.  She's had quite a sheltered, privileged upbringing so maybe this experience will give her some jolts about the real world.  It can go beyond superficial hijinks if the writers want it to.  I did like how in the PI arc last year Castle also went from brimming with enthusiasm about the job, to becoming wary of the ethical/emotional cost in the end.

[Tim]

I struggled with this, perhaps because I love Krista and Nathan, but I finally reached the decision that Castle is not working for me, Alexi H was the one gone for three years, he comes back and kills all show progress, and character growth, especially Beckett, who is back to in need of Dr. Carter to get her through the day.  The Angst generated was Contrived, and the result of Lazy writing by both AH and TPW which surprised me, I had love Old Man W's work until this one.  By zapping us back to more like Season 3-4 we are faced with the same WTWT, or now Will She or Won't She and why the hell do Show Runners think any man would chase after Bad Ass Beckett to get her to be with him after this many times of putting him second behind Work, her Mother's Case, Her Life, Her Decision, and most of all another Lie.  I am done with the show, with Kate Beckett, and with the feuds that go on between the kids on Twitter who think that if you do not like and episode you are the Anti Fan.  I will watch when I can on Demand, and now bow out of posting since the show and what is used to be about, has changed, and not for the good.  Thanks to all those who put up with me during my posts, I have enjoyed much of the lively debates, I would be lying if I said all and hope you all enjoy the show, and life  God Speed

[amensisterfriend]

They have often made Alexis too perfect, too good at everything in a way in which Beckett and possibly the new character Hayley are at times.  Maybe because sometimes the desire to write strong female characters ends up Mary Suing them on the page

 

YES! This. I've tried to make this point, but never with much success, so thanks for saying it so succinctly :) Sometimes it feels like the writers of this and many other shows have conflated 'strong female character' with 'perfect superheroine who is shown to be absolutely amazing at everything and possesses no discernible flaws.' The problem is that such characters aren't remotely relatable, interesting or root-worthy for me. They don't even feel like real people.

 

And while ITA about Alexis, I'd actually make the unpopular argument that Beckett has been an even bigger victim of this mistake than Alexis. Beckett is a stunning former model who was also brilliant enough to get into Stanford and do absolutely anything with her life but deigned to become a detective, at which point she quickly became the best one EVER to a degree that's a bit ludicrous. She's a font of knowledge about absolutely everything. She possesses every single 'cool' interest or talent known to man. Pretty much every successful and handsome man with whom she's crossed paths is dying to be with her. She is forever lauded as 'extraordinary' and somehow "different" from (read: better than) most women despite seeming more and more generic. She has a wardrobe that most multimillionaire heiresses would envy despite earning a detective's salary. She's got the unique discipline to eat just ONE potato chip, making her seem superior (and, again, unrelatable!) to the millions of women who sometimes indulge in junk food and aren't naturally a size negative 12 like our Kate! ;) She's depicted as the impossibly perfect combination of preternaturally 'tough' and down to earth and yet still fabulously glammed up and sexy, able to acclimate absolutely anywhere and earning the admiration of everyone other than eeevil criminals...and sometimes even theirs. She's clever and sassy and can outwit anyone at any time. Even the stuff that many fans view as faults---like her relationship-assassinating, unhealthy fixation with devoting her life to the neverending quest of avenging her mom's death---is nearly always depicted by the writers as yet another example of how determined, courageous, principled, driven, tough etc. she is. And, possibly my personal favorite that doesn't get quite enough snark from us devoted viewers: This character was approached to run for Congress (!!!) despite having zero political experience, no legal education  etc...but, hey, she's KATE BECKETT, so obviously everyone would feel privileged to vote for her! LOL! I used to date an NYC homicide detective and would be curious to know how many of his colleagues were eagerly approached by bigwigs to run for political office ;) 

 

Aexis has already been covered here, and Lanie appears to have zero flaws as well (though I personally question her taste in men!), though she remains so thoroughly underdeveloped and undefined as a character even after all these years that it's hard to say for sure. Martha annoyed me at the beginning, but in retrospect she may be the best written (and, IMO, definitely the best acted) female character on the show, an interesting and more or less consistent blend of clear strengths and a few amusing amusing/relatable flaws. 

 

So, yeah, the female characterization needs some work...and, come to think of it, much of the male characterization does as well! 

Edited September 30, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[madmaverick]

Amensisterfriend, ITA with what you said about Beckett's characterisation.  She's the original Mary Sue on the show. ;)  A shame, really, because she wasn't like that in the very beginning, but as they went on, they piled on more and more perfections and the irony of it all was that the writers couldn't see that she was becoming more and more generic.  Her outward appearance also became more generic as it became more and more Hollywood "flawless".  Look at how they pile on the "badass Beckett" moments now.  I find them mostly laughable now but I'm sure some fangirls can't get enough.  I believe 'less is more' both in terms of the quantity and quality of any badass moments, but it's like the writers don't know any restraint on this score either.  The costume designer clearly has the same affliction when it comes to buying wardrobe for Beckett.

 

In the beginning, I found Beckett to be smart but not unicorn smart.  Vulnerable but the walls and obsessions weren't dominating either.  Reserved.  A bit dorky and a bit socially awkward in an endearing way.  Intriguing.  She was intrigued by Castle too and I loved that he could unnerve her, surprise her, in good ways and give as well as he got from her.  It wasn't always Beckett Knows Best.

 

When they had Beckett go for Captain, I knew she would pass the exams with flying colours and probably become the youngest Capt., just as she was the youngest detective.  She'd probably have been the youngest State Senator too, the youngest Supreme Court justice. ;)  Not surprised when Rita and the AG woman both said Beckett was impressive (always better if we're shown that instead of told over and over again!) because just about every outsider comes in and praises Beckett.  It means more to me when Castle tells Beckett she's extraordinary (and she's really earned it); much less so when some random stranger just comes in and says it.  And Beckett was even offered another big DC job on the spot despite being fired previously!  Swooned over by billionaires (because millionaire Castle doesn't quite suffice) and politicos alike.  And criminals too, of course heh.

 

Flaws can be what make characters endearing, but maybe not such flaws as giving into obsessions at the expense of your marriage. ;)

[verdana]

Look at how they pile on the "badass Beckett" moments now.  I find them mostly laughable now but I'm sure some fangirls can't get enough.

 

Oh you're not wrong there, "badass" Beckett is a huge attraction especially for the younger demo, they adore her in that mode and I sense the writers know it and play on that. Although to be fair it seems that becoming a badass as a female character is practically a required trait on many shows these days. 

 

Not surprised when Rita and the AG woman both said Beckett was impressive (always better if we're shown that instead of told over and over again!) because just about every outsider comes in and praises Beckett.

SHOW don't tell, I want to burst out laughing every time they do this, some random person appears to tell Beckett she's extraordinary when she's often done very little to earn such a comment and even if she has it's still eye roll worthy. Yes I know she's special but it's better to show me than keep hitting me over the head with the information. Same goes for Alexis, they're falling into the same pattern with her, they keep telling everyone how "grown up" she is on screen but they can keep saying that that until the cows come home it won't convince me until they start showing Alexis actively behaving like one. Just because you tell the audience something all the time it doesn't make it true. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

And just because a person turns 21 and is legally an adult, doesn't mean they behave like one or deserve to be called one.

But what bugged me more with Alexis was suddenly giving her these super computer skills where she is enhancing videos. Where did she learn that? At least with Beckett we know she's been a cop for over a decade and picked up skills. And Castle knows a lot of random information from researching books.

I usually don't have a problem with the super Beckett stuff, but even I rolled my eyes when that AG woman offered her a job, and we didn't even get a throwaway line about her superiors minding her going AWOL her first two days on the job.

[Blackrock1]

What's working? Espo and Ryan being cops.

What isn't?

Alexis- Instead of flushing out her character by giving her friends, a life, a future in grad school, a career search, a boyfriend, an apartment, ANYTHING normal, they've shoved her to the forefront by creating this completely unbelievable "new" character. The metamorphosis makes my eyes hurt. Have these writers MET any 21 yr old college women? I've never seen her even txt on screen. Wait, I've never seen her use a cell phone come to think of it. That right there makes her unbelievable.

Castle as a PI- it's early days and we haven't seen where they are going with this, but Castle is a writer and we never see any writer action any more. They barely mention it. Obviously they are committed to this direction but to quote Martha, "you is who you is, and if you ain't who you is, then who is you?" Who IS he?

Beckett- no idea what the hell they've done to her. She's gone from "he got away and I didn't care, I just want you" to walking out? From "always" to "later dude". "No more secrets" has been said at least twice....does that mean no more secrets today? Jesus.

The precinct- it struck me as Castle, a civilian outsider was introducing the new Captain Beckett (not some higher up, not even Ryan or Espo) that there was a complete vaccum of authority in the precinct. Maybe Beckett will become that authoritarian and maybe that will create "organic" conflict. The captain of the 12th has always represented the structure and discipline of the police force. Kept Beckett and co inside the lines. Having Castle make the big intro seemed to me awkward. It was not his place.

The romance. I got nuthin'

The Caskett pandering - awkward Caskett gross almost make out in the hangar, totally OOC, "shut up and kiss me"? Seriously? Who's idea was that? It sucked the first time around when they were having PDA at a prom. Like 17 yr olds... jesus. Best "normal every day couple" kiss IMO was the opening. in "Cloudy With A Chance of Murder" sweet, sexy, normal. (shut the front door and the first kiss in the alley not withstanding, just not "everyday" variety) Look, I get that they are trying to please the fans. Surely there is a more elegant way to do it.

The pace - as a long time fan, it's irritating and tedious the way they are changing the story. The two parter was dragged out. I for one didn't need to see 42 min of Castle's perspective. To me, it seemed like a long, drawn out introduction of the PI scheme and the new Alexis with her sidekick. I realize they had scheduling issues with Stana. Maybe they could have sent her to "captain training" for episode 801. Orientation at 1PP. Phoned in a few "I miss you" scenes. Had castle PI solve a case while showing off his new office, end it with her taking her desk at the 12th, Happy Captain, Happy wife, Happy husband...nice opener to the season....Then end it with the call....which we hear.

Episode two could have been substantially the same, but after the breakup, give us some idea of what her next move is. Just a tid bit. Something hopeful to want to tune in for next week. Instead, we are served up the interviews explaining what just happened and the "wait till sweeps you'll love it", "we're all about the romance". How bout you just create a show that depicts on screen what you say it does in the press and get on with it? I'm curious if the cast and writers actually watch the show that airs. Maybe the writers could tweet explainations and information across the bottom of the screen as it airs. The ratings will tell the story. If the show moves to Friday or Saturday after the winter hiatus I won't be surprised.