Fiddle dee dee! GWTW and other Southern Novels

[Browncoat]

I believe he comes back periodically, too.  I waffle, though, on whether or not I think they get back together.  I feel like they are a really good match, but that Scarlett must just be exhausting to be around.  

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

I believe he comes back periodically, too.  I waffle, though, on whether or not I think they get back together.  I feel like they are a really good match, but that Scarlett must just be exhausting to be around.  

Rhett too. He would needle her constantly.

[Growsonwalls]

3 hours ago, Browncoat said:

I believe he comes back periodically, too.  I waffle, though, on whether or not I think they get back together.  I feel like they are a really good match, but that Scarlett must just be exhausting to be around.  

I don't think they'll get back together romantically. Over time I could see them forming a sort of partnership based on business interests, raising Wade and Ella, etc. Which would be the way many marriages settle anyway. 

[Starleigh]

I don't see Rhett being that hands on with Wade and Ella, not really. Nothing like Bonnie. I mean, he'd support them financially and be very kind to them whenever he happened to be in Atlanta, but I don't think he'd be planning his life around theirs or having discussions with Scarlett about where to send them to school or anything like that. He wouldn't be going out of his way to attend Ella's debut party (if that was a thing back then) or Wade's graduation, unless he happened to be visiting anyway. Likely, he'd write a note of congratulations and send a gold watch or pearl necklace or something. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Starleigh

[Growsonwalls]

19 hours ago, Starleigh said:

I don't see Rhett being that hands on with Wade and Ella, not really. Nothing like Bonnie. I mean, he'd support them financially and be very kind to them whenever he happened to be in Atlanta, but I don't think he'd be planning his life around theirs or having discussions with Scarlett about where to send them to school or anything like that. He wouldn't be going out of his way to attend Ella's debut party (if that was a thing back then) or Wade's graduation, unless he happened to be visiting anyway. Likely, he'd write a note of congratulations and send a gold watch or pearl necklace or something. 

I don't see him being hands on with them but I could see him maintaining a good relationship with them and supporting them financially if they needed help. I mean, if you think about it, he's known Wade since Wade was like a newborn and he's the only father figure Ella's ever known either. It'd be out of character for him to cut them off.

I kind of wonder how involved Ashley will be in Beau's life after Melly's death. I actually see him being overwhelmed and farming the parenting out to Scarlett. Scarlett's made a deathbed promise to Mel to take care of Beau and I see her keeping that promise. She's not very maternal but she's not neglectful either. Beau could do worse.

[Starleigh]

India would probably move back in with them and become the mother figure in Beau's life.

I agree, I can't see Ashley managing at all, on his own. He would need a woman to run things (of course in those days that was par for the course anyway) and I don't see him remarrying. I think he would still want Beau living under his roof. So I think he and India would smooth things over and she'd move back in.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Starleigh

[Growsonwalls]

India will be one awful pill of a mother figure. Ashley will be overwhelmed and distracted. Poor Beau. 

I think Aunt Scarlett will be supporting Beau for awhile. Ashley has nothing in the way of job skills and neither does India. 

[Black Knight]

Re: the question of whether Scarlett and Rhett reunite, I'm always struck by the moment in their last conversation when Rhett is struck by how she exactly captured what he meant. But when she tells him it's something Ashley said to her, he says, "Always Ashley," and there's a line about the light going out of his eyes again. To me that was always an indication that Rhett is still able to fall back into Scarlett's arms, were he to see that Ashley is no longer any sort of threat. And since he's supposed to come back fairly often, there's plenty of chance there.

But, I don't think they can really make a marriage work, even without Ashley in the picture. Certainly there are ways in which they get on really well together, but they also had some serious incompatibilities, their feelings about children being one. What seems likeliest to me is basically rinse and repeat their original story ad nauseum - he comes back, they eventually fall into bed, they're happy for a bit, they start fighting, he storms out of town for a while, he comes back...in that sense, I can see why to Margaret Mitchell, the book ended where it did.

[Starleigh]

 

Probably the best thing for Beau would be to go away to an academy somewhere as soon as he is old enough. (Obviously, Aunt Scarlett will be footing the bill.) This would probably be a good idea for Wade, too.

[Growsonwalls]

36 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Re: the question of whether Scarlett and Rhett reunite, I'm always struck by the moment in their last conversation when Rhett is struck by how she exactly captured what he meant. But when she tells him it's something Ashley said to her, he says, "Always Ashley," and there's a line about the light going out of his eyes again. To me that was always an indication that Rhett is still able to fall back into Scarlett's arms, were he to see that Ashley is no longer any sort of threat. And since he's supposed to come back fairly often, there's plenty of chance there.

But, I don't think they can really make a marriage work, even without Ashley in the picture. Certainly there are ways in which they get on really well together, but they also had some serious incompatibilities, their feelings about children being one. What seems likeliest to me is basically rinse and repeat their original story ad nauseum - he comes back, they eventually fall into bed, they're happy for a bit, they start fighting, he storms out of town for a while, he comes back...in that sense, I can see why to Margaret Mitchell, the book ended where it did.

One thing that I read recently was that even the healthiest marriages often fall apart after the unexpected death of a child. The strain and stress is often too much to bear. Who knows what Rhett will be like once he gets some of his equanimity back. Scarlett and Rhett seem to enjoy sex with each other so that is a plus.

I think the movie is less ambiguous than the book. The movie makes the split seem final. The book has more shades of gray. 

One thing that Rhett will not be happy about is if Scarlett continually supports Ashley after Melanie's death. Which Scarlett will. Because otherwise Ashley would starve.

[Browncoat]

But Scarlett, with her newfound knowledge that she never really loved Ashley, will resent the hell out of having to carry him.  

At the end, she goes back to Tara — how long does she stay there? 

[Growsonwalls]

5 hours ago, Browncoat said:

But Scarlett, with her newfound knowledge that she never really loved Ashley, will resent the hell out of having to carry him.  

At the end, she goes back to Tara — how long does she stay there? 

Whether she loves Ashley or not she still made a deathbed promise to Melanie to take care of Ashley and Beau and I think she's going to do it.

I feel like she goes back to Tara for a few weeks before she has to go back to Atlanta for her business. She might persuade Mammy to return to Atlanta.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Whether she loves Ashley or not she still made a deathbed promise to Melanie to take care of Ashley and Beau and I think she's going to do it.

Yes, the scales fell from her eyes regarding Ashley. She no longer had romantic feelings for him and loved him more like a brother. That time they got caught embracing at the lumber yard, Scarlett said there was no heat in that embrace, just two old friends who had been through hell together. She told Rhett that Ashley had just been a schoolgirl crush that got out of hand because of circumstances. She would have come to the same realization without the war a lot quicker.

Edited February 25, 2021 by peacheslatour

[Browncoat]

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Whether she loves Ashley or not she still made a deathbed promise to Melanie to take care of Ashley and Beau and I think she's going to do it.

Oh, she'll absolutely do it.  But she'll not be happy about having to do it.

Mammy's never going back to Atlanta. 

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Oh, she'll absolutely do it.  But she'll not be happy about having to do it.

Mammy's never going back to Atlanta. 

No, Mammy's too old, she should be enjoying a well deserved retirement. 

[Starleigh]

I think she will love Beau for Melanie's sake.

And I don't think she could ever hate Ashley. He's one of the few links to her past, and is a connection to her pre war life, someone who looks at her and sees her as the belle of the ball, an innocent carefree debutante, who remembered Ellen and Gerald in their prime. It kind of reminds me of a theme I've seen expressed a lot in memoirs of Holocaust survivors--because their whole family was wiped out and their former lives destroyed, if they met a fellow survivor from the same town, or someone who had been distantly related even just through marriage,  they automatically had a bond for the rest of their lives, and considered each other family-- this was a way they could still feel connected to their family and someone who knew them in the context of pre war life.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Starleigh

[Blergh]

Of course the thing to keep in mind is that Mrs. Mitchell not only ended the story with everyone somewhat in limbo after Melanie's death but also refused to consider to do a sequel for the remaining 13 years of her life- despite getting a comparative pittance re compensation for selling the movie rights to Selznick Studios. She said 'the story has told itself'. ..although she did hint that she thought that Scarlett WOULD win Rhett back. IOW, had she truly wanted to wrap things up for all the characters in a neat bow, she COULD have but my guess is that Mrs. Mitchell didn't want that not only due to life rarely if ever working out that way but also so her readers could decide the characters' fates themselves.

 

Hence, I   personally do not consider any so-called sequels ( whether or not legally authorized by Mrs. Mitchell's heirs) to be legit but, ultimately, for better or worse, fanfiction. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Blergh

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

Of course the thing to keep in mind is that Mrs. Mitchell not only ended the story with everyone somewhat in limbo after Melanie's death but also refused to consider to do a sequel for the remaining 13 years of her life- despite getting a comparative pittance re compensation for selling the movie rights to Selznick Studios. She said 'the story has told itself'. ..although she did hint that she thought that Scarlett WOULD win Rhett back. IOW, had she truly wanted to wrap things up for all the characters in a neat bow, she COULD have but my guess is that Mrs. Mitchell didn't want that not only due to life rarely if ever working out that way but also so her readers could decide the characters' fates themselves.

 

Hence, I personally personally do not consider any so-called sequels ( whether or not legally authorized by Mrs. Mitchell's heirs) to be legit but, ultimately, for better or worse, fanfiction. 

How ironic is it that when Scarlett lived with Melanie and Aunt Pittypat, they lived on Peachtree Street and Mrs. Mitchell was run over by a car and killed on Peachtree Street? Of course, I know there is probably more than one Peachtree St. in Atlanta but still.

[Browncoat]

I love that the book ends in ambiguity.  

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, Browncoat said:

I love that the book ends in ambiguity.  

It all kind of depends on how old you are when you read it. When I was 12 and read it the first time, I sincerely believed Scarlett would find a way to get him back. When I reread it at 30, I recognized just how "done" Rhett was with the whole thing. I think the dream of Scarlett finally evaporated for Rhett in very much the same way Scarlett's dream of Ashley did for her.

[Browncoat]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

It all kind of depends on how old you are when you read it. When I was 12 and read it the first time, I sincerely believed Scarlett would find a way to get him back. When I reread it at 30, I recognized just how "done" Rhett was with the whole thing. I think the dream of Scarlett finally evaporated for Rhett in very much the same way Scarlett's dream of Ashley did for her.

Same.  Though sometimes, on my less cynical days, I can believe those two crazy kids might work things out.  And that is why I love the ambiguity.

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Same.  Though sometimes, on my less cynical days, I can believe those two crazy kids might work things out.  And that is why I love the ambiguity.

I don;'t think they get back together romantically. Sometimes I think they might open a business together though. And since they seem to be sexually compatible I could even see them having another oops baby. Idk, I just see that happening. Most people who are sexually compatible end up rekindling a physical relationship. Especially when they're legally married anyway. And Rhett doesn't seem to want an official divorce.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Growsonwalls

[peacheslatour]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don;'t think they get back together romantically. Sometimes I think they might open a business together though. And since they seem to be sexually compatible I could even see them having another oops baby. Idk, I just see that happening. Most people who are sexually compatible end up rekindling a physical relationship. Especially when they're legally married anyway. And Rhett doesn't seem to want an official divorce.

I can see that. Rhett gave Scarlett her first orgasm, I can see her wanting more. Especially since the woman's pleasure was an unheard of for most men back then.

[Starleigh]

22 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don;'t think they get back together romantically. Sometimes I think they might open a business together though. And since they seem to be sexually compatible I could even see them having another oops baby. Idk, I just see that happening. Most people who are sexually compatible end up rekindling a physical relationship. Especially when they're legally married anyway. And Rhett doesn't seem to want an official divorce.

I don't see Rhett wanting to have another child after Bonnie, though. He wouldn't want to risk that kind of heartbreak.

And I think he was so tired of the drama with Scarlett he would plan to stay as far away and distant as he could (emotionally) so I don't think he'd weaken and allow her to seduce him. No matter what Alexandra Ripley imagined!

[Blergh]

11 hours ago, Starleigh said:

I don't see Rhett wanting to have another child after Bonnie, though. He wouldn't want to risk that kind of heartbreak.

And I think he was so tired of the drama with Scarlett he would plan to stay as far away and distant as he could (emotionally) so I don't think he'd weaken and allow her to seduce him. No matter what Alexandra Ripley imagined!

Just one of many reasons I called the heir-legally authorized sequel' Ripley's Believe It or Not' and opted to not believe it!

[Browncoat]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

Just one of many reasons I called the heir-legally authorized sequel' Ripley's Believe It or Not' and opted to not believe it!

Perfect name for that abomination.  I opted not to believe it, too.

[Growsonwalls]

18 hours ago, Starleigh said:

I don't see Rhett wanting to have another child after Bonnie, though. He wouldn't want to risk that kind of heartbreak.

And I think he was so tired of the drama with Scarlett he would plan to stay as far away and distant as he could (emotionally) so I don't think he'd weaken and allow her to seduce him. No matter what Alexandra Ripley imagined!

Hmm. When the book ends Rhett is in deep depression. Today we would recognize that both Scarlett and Rhett probably have clinical depression after Bonnie's death. Rhett's also lost someone he values greatly in Melanie. When he gets his equanimity back he might feel differently. Maybe, maybe not. 

[Black Knight]

21 hours ago, Starleigh said:

I don't see Rhett wanting to have another child after Bonnie, though. He wouldn't want to risk that kind of heartbreak.

Rhett is not a man who can be celibate, though. Nor do I believe him as someone who would forgo having sex with younger women in favor of women safely past their childbearing years. So whether he actively wants another child or not, it's always going to be a possibility for him.

[Starleigh]

12 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Rhett is not a man who can be celibate, though. Nor do I believe him as someone who would forgo having sex with younger women in favor of women safely past their childbearing years. So whether he actively wants another child or not, it's always going to be a possibility for him.

Sure, but he's also a man who will always have plenty of women willing to succumb to his charms.

Belle Watling (and "her girls") would always be very welcoming to him, too.

[peacheslatour]

19 hours ago, Starleigh said:

Sure, but he's also a man who will always have plenty of women willing to succumb to his charms.

Belle Watling (and "her girls") would always be very welcoming to him, too.

Belle was no spring chicken.

[Growsonwalls]

Rhetts relationship with Belle seems to be more of a friendship based on the fact that they have a child together. He didn't love Belle or want to be with her. 

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Rhetts relationship with Belle seems to be more of a friendship based on the fact that they have a child together. He didn't love Belle or want to be with her. 

That's the movie version.

[Growsonwalls]

29 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

That's the movie version.

I wouldn't say the book version of their relationship is much different. Rhett feels a fondness for Belle and all that but he still loved Scarlett in a romantic way and doesn't feel the same way about Belle.

[Starleigh]

35 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I wouldn't say the book version of their relationship is much different. Rhett feels a fondness for Belle and all that but he still loved Scarlett in a romantic way and doesn't feel the same way about Belle.

True, but I'm pretty sure there's a point where Scarlett says to Ashley at the end, you didn't love me, you only wanted my body the way Rhett wanted that Watling woman (or something to that effect, I'm definitely paraphrasing). And I think I remember Rhett throwing something in her face about Belle being warm and welcoming to him, unlike Scarlett.

Anyway, whether or not Rhett was still maintaining a sexual relationship with Belle, it's not like he stayed celibate when Scarlett locked him out of her bedroom years before. He spent a lot of time at Belle's establishment, and I'm sure he wasn't just playing cards there.

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, Starleigh said:

True, but I'm pretty sure there's a point where Scarlett says to Ashley at the end, you didn't love me, you only wanted my body the way Rhett wanted that Watling woman (or something to that effect, I'm definitely paraphrasing). And I think I remember Rhett throwing something in her face about Belle being warm and welcoming to him, unlike Scarlett.

Anyway, whether or not Rhett was still maintaining a sexual relationship with Belle, it's not like he stayed celibate when Scarlett locked him out of her bedroom years before. He spent a lot of time at Belle's establishment, and I'm sure he wasn't just playing cards there.

Well Scarlett had just been really bitchy to Rhett. They were having great sex and all of a sudden he's friend-zoned in their marriage. I always thought he was being spiteful and maybe trying to make her jealous. I'm sure Rhett probably turned to Belle Watling for some comforting but their relationship was at most a friends with benefits thing. 

Also a woman of Belle's occupation knew how to prevent pregnancies. Her brothel women would know how too.

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, Starleigh said:

True, but I'm pretty sure there's a point where Scarlett says to Ashley at the end, you didn't love me, you only wanted my body the way Rhett wanted that Watling woman (or something to that effect, I'm definitely paraphrasing). And I think I remember Rhett throwing something in her face about Belle being warm and welcoming to him, unlike Scarlett.

Anyway, whether or not Rhett was still maintaining a sexual relationship with Belle, it's not like he stayed celibate when Scarlett locked him out of her bedroom years before. He spent a lot of time at Belle's establishment, and I'm sure he wasn't just playing cards there.

 "Well, men tire of women more easily than women. Keep you sanctity, Scarlett.It will work no hardship on me. It doesn't matter. 

Fortunately, the world is full of beds- and most of the beds are full of women."

[Black Knight]

On 2/28/2021 at 4:44 PM, Starleigh said:

Sure, but he's also a man who will always have plenty of women willing to succumb to his charms.

Well, yes, that was basically the point of my post. Rhett will continue to have sex with women, and that means having another child will always be a possibility even if he doesn't want one.

Frankly I doubt he was faithful to Scarlett even before she decided to cut off sexual relations.

[Starleigh]

13 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Well, yes, that was basically the point of my post. Rhett will continue to have sex with women, and that means having another child will always be a possibility even if he doesn't want one.

Frankly I doubt he was faithful to Scarlett even before she decided to cut off sexual relations.

Yes, I agree with you there. But based on the probability of his "ward" being his son, and the way he did NOT seem pleased about it (as hinted to during his conversation with Wade after Bonnie's birth), I think the reality is that for him, a child born from his affair with a prostitute just wouldn't be the same as a child born in wedlock. He would support the child financially but wouldn't have much of a relationship and it simply wouldn't cost him the same emotional investment that a child with Scarlett would bring forth. Obviously through modern day lenses, we condemn that sort of attitude, but back then it was pretty normal.

 I think he'd be on guard with any attempt at seduction that Scarlett might try.

Also, don't forget his response to her "offer" to have another baby at the end, he pretty much said, "no thank you, after Bonnie, I won't risk it."

Edited March 2, 2021 by Starleigh

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

Well, yes, that was basically the point of my post. Rhett will continue to have sex with women, and that means having another child will always be a possibility even if he doesn't want one.

Frankly I doubt he was faithful to Scarlett even before she decided to cut off sexual relations.

I think he was. He seemed to be enjoying the family life. Him and Scarlett were sexually compatible.

Also, the sudden loss of a child wrecks marriages. Even marriages on much surer footing than Scarlett and Rhett. For instance during the Civil War, Abraham and Mary Lincoln lost their son Willie. The loss put a huge strain on their marriage. Mary was never all there mentally afterwards. Lincoln became withdrawn and despondent and buried himself even deeper into work. 

Rhett at the end of the book is at his absolute worst, mentally. I just don't think he'll stay there forever. 

[Starleigh]

Yeah I think when they had that convo about Scarlett not wanting to get pregnant, he said something to the effect of, it was a surprise he hadn't strayed yet, that it was a first for him.

Could be he'd have cheated on her eventually but I really don't think he did that first year or so until she shut him out. He was in love with her and not interested in other women, he was still obsessed with making her love him. Then he sort of gave up, and didn't see the point in staying faithful.

[Growsonwalls]

I found this: some Scarlett screentests.

Some of these seem SO wrong. Omg.

[peacheslatour]

13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I found this: some Scarlett screentests.

Some of these seem SO wrong. Omg.

Great find! Lol, Lana Turner...soooo bad. I can see why Paulette Goddard was the front runner. Nobody could touch Vivien Leigh though.

[Growsonwalls]

On 3/5/2021 at 1:36 PM, peacheslatour said:

Great find! Lol, Lana Turner...soooo bad. I can see why Paulette Goddard was the front runner. Nobody could touch Vivien Leigh though.

Apparently Bette Davis campaigned hard for the role and didn't get it. I couldn't see her as Scarlett though.

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

Apparently Bette Davis campaigned hard for the role and didn't get it. I couldn't see her as Scarlett though.

"Fasten your seat belt Ashley, it's going to be a bumpy night."

[Blergh]

On 3/5/2021 at 12:36 PM, peacheslatour said:

Great find! Lol, Lana Turner...soooo bad. I can see why Paulette Goddard was the front runner. Nobody could touch Vivien Leigh though.

I also liked how one scene showed how Mammy took great personal pride in how Scarlett was presented as though she was a work of art and Mammy herself had been the artist!

Of course, the reason why Miss Goddard was ultimately not considered was due to her then openly living with Charlie Chaplin in an era in which living with a nonmarital, unrelated and/or non-servant person of the opposite gender was decidedly frowned upon.(though they'd later claim to have been married in Shanghai - after it had gotten overrun by the Japanese and any search of the records would have been impossible for journalists to confirm or refute the couple's claims.)  Although Mr. Selznick was far from a Boy Scout, he didn't want to chance Louella Parsons, Hedda Hopper or other gossip columns urging the public to boycott this movie due to its leading lady's offscreen life.  Yes, Vivien Leigh was still legally married to her  first husband Leigh Holman while conducting a torrid affair with the also-married Laurence Olivier but, at that point, both parties were discreet enough about it for Mr. Selznick to believe he could take his chances. Of course, within a year of GWTW's premiere, it became public knowledge and both their marriages ended (with their respective ex-spouses getting custody of their offspring) and the two were wed which, ironically, would add instead of sour   Miss Leigh's allure as Scarlett (which was still playing in 1940 and would be re-released several times before Miss Leigh's 1967 death) .

On a funny note, Mrs. Mitchell said that she wanted Rhett to be played by. ..Groucho Marx (of all people) but one must keep in mind that Mrs. Mitchell had a far more robust sense of humor and was more of an iconoclast than the staid, torchbearer image folks liked to believe.

And Lucille Ball when she was on her way to being the Queen of the B Movies, auditioned for Scarlett but her audition was a disaster due  to the dual factors of her having gotten soaked to skin having her convertable car getting caught in  a sudden downpour before she could put the roof on AND her having been tipsy for it.

 Still, she and Groucho DID co-star in Room Service (1938) with her playing his 'straight-woman' partner in crime (acting nothing like the future Lucy Ricardo) but one would have a hard time imagining the audiences laughing   at their romantic scenes instead of swooning over them. 

[SmithW6079]

On 2/16/2021 at 7:54 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Another person in GWTW I felt could have gotten her own novel is Mammy. I'd be interested learning about Mammy's family and background. Mammy deserves plaudits as the only person Scarlett reveres and respects unconditionally.

I thought Donald Craig, who wrote the execrable "Rhett Butler's People" or whatever it was called also wrote a book that delved into Mammy's past. I think it was called "Ruth."

On 2/16/2021 at 5:30 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Anyone think that there could be a good book somewhere about the life of Will Benteen? From the life of a "po white" to sort of running Tara. His early life is never mentioned because a woman of Scarlett's class would have no interest learning about it. But it could be a good book. 

I thought Will was one of the more interesting characters that didn't make it into the movie. It's interesting that as strong as she is, Scarlett still quite willing -- eagerly, even -- lets the man take the lead in making decisions for Tara, even if it is an uneducated, poor white like Will.

On 2/16/2021 at 8:10 PM, Starleigh said:

I'm still disappointed that we never got a Pat Conroy spin off novel from  Rhett's POV. He was in talks with Mitchell's estate and it was almost finalized, when it fell apart because he didn't like the rigid parameters of what they were going to allow him to write. It would have been a great read. Better than the insipid Alexandra Ripley sequel, that's for sure.

The Donald Craig book about Rhett I mentioned above was authorized too.

On 2/17/2021 at 12:30 AM, Starleigh said:

I agree with you on Rhett and Scarlett not getting back together. When I was a much younger (romantically obsessed) reader, I did think so.  But as an adult reader, I read the ending as totally different--not just disillusionment on Rhett's part, but total exhaustion with the drama. He just doesn't care anymore, he's completely done. Not that I felt quite as tragic about the ending this time, I actually found I didn't have that much sympathy for either of them. While I still find them to be fascinating characters, they were a lot less likeable on this reread.

The same. When I read it as a teenager, I wanted them to get back together. Now I think the book ended just right. And I agree they're both horrible people, but I think Scarlett edges out Rhett on the horrible scale. Rhett's love for his stepchildren seems real and his respect and admiration for Melanie and Mammy is genuine. 

On 2/20/2021 at 3:30 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Gerald's story is interesting, but I have no wish to read more about Ellen.  Ellen in the book was such a neglectful mother to her daughters.  I know she had a lost love and a string of miscarriages, but her death wish was something else.  

I would love more of Ellen's backstory, especially her love of cousin Phillippe and the love that was not allowed. Maybe even some of Phillippe's life as what I assume was a gambler and blackguard and overall ne'er-do-well. Ellen and Gerald's early life might have been interesting, as she struggles to feel at home with the "savage" inland Georgians, so unlike her own genteel people.

I also think  a parallel story of life at Tara during the war, as the Confederacy demands more and more from the planters and farmers would be a nice complement to the main story, especially as the book mentions Scarlett making trips home to Tara several times. 

 

 

[Lady Whistleup]

I would love if one of the GWTW characters was retconned into passing as white and written into a book. Passing was more common in ante-bellum South than a woman of Scarlett's station would have acknowledged. 

[Blergh]

8 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I would love if one of the GWTW characters was retconned into passing as white and written into a book. Passing was more common in ante-bellum South than a woman of Scarlett's station would have acknowledged. 

Along those lines, so were biracial babies that, as the Civil War diarist Mary Chestnut put it, that every Southern matron knew the paternity of every single [biracial] child within a ten-mile radius- except in her own household whom she believed had dropped from the moon (or pretended to believe). 

 

It would have been interesting to see how Scarlett would have dealt with being confronted with that reality. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Blergh

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Ellen and Gerald's early life might have been interesting, as she struggles to feel at home with the "savage" inland Georgians, so unlike her own genteel people.

Really interesting too because Ellen was only fifteen when she married Gerald. She had to deal with his rather robust demands for a son and the reality of running a fairly large business, employing hundreds.

[Browncoat]

I just finished a re-read of GWTW.  I wanted to refresh my memory of the book and separate the book from the movie.

One of the most striking things is the ages of our main characters.  They all had so much thrown at them when they were just teenagers!  I can't imagine being solely responsible for a woman who is having a difficult pregnancy/birth when I was only 18!  And that wagon ride back to Tara!  Scarlett is really remarkable just for managing all of that.  I mean, when I was 19, all I really had to worry about was college classes.  I can't imagine being pretty much solely responsible for all the things Scarlett was.  And the dowagers -- Mrs. Meade, Aunt Pittypat, Mrs. Merriweather, etc., are probably only in their early to mid-30s at most at the beginning -- roughly the same age as Rhett!  The movie makes them all so much older.

It also reminded me that Scarlett both grew up very quickly, and also not at all.  By the end of the book, in many ways, she's still the naive, idealistic 16-year-old we meet at the beginning (until Melly's death when she has her epiphany about Ashley and Rhett).  But she's also very adult in her business dealings.  I feel like Melanie's death and the realization at that moment that now she has not only Ashley and Beau looking to her, but Aunt Pittypat and India as well will help with her emotional maturity. 

It also made me wonder about birth control during that time.  There had to be something -- maybe only the "bad women" used it, but it had to exist, or Scarlett would have gotten pregnant on her honeymoon.  No way Rhett abstained, and Scarlett seemed pretty fertile.  Did he use condoms?  He likely would have forgotten/not bothered on the night he raped Scarlett.    

The timeline at the end, with Scarlett's second pregnancy, Bonnie's death, and Melanie's death seems quite different than in the movie, too.  It would appear that Melanie was only a couple of months into her second pregnancy when she died, but more time than that passed between Ashley's ill-fated birthday party and her death.  That indicates to me that Ashley and Melanie had some sort of sex on the regular -- not just for birthdays and holidays.  So did Ashley use condoms?  

I'm still torn at the end whether or not Scarlett and Rhett get back together.  She will go back to Tara and let Mammy take care of her for a while.  I don't see her staying there, though.  She'll get bored and come back to Atlanta.  Ashley probably will go bankrupt even with sure-fire money-makers like the mills and lumberyards, and Scarlett will resent the hell out of him.  Rhett will go make amends with his remaining family in Charleston.  But he won't stay.  Maybe with Scarlett's newfound emotional maturity and self-realization, they can make an honest go of things.  I don't know!  And that's why I love the ending so much.  I can make up my own future for them.  I do still think they're a really good match.