Batman: The Animated Series - General Discussion

[MagnusHex]

Mask of the Phantasm

In preparation for watching season 2 of the series (beginning with Sideshow since I had unfortunately followed Wikipedia's broadcast order), I rewatched Mask of the Phantasm just now (when really, I should've watched it earlier as it serves as a better closing chapter for when I had finished season 1 last year; oh well).

It's pretty great, just as great as I vaguely remembered. You have a few brilliant writers from TAS working together on a tight script, Alan Burnett of Two-Face: Part One, Michael Reaves of Feet of Clay, Martin Pasko of See No Evil, and last but definitely not least, Paul Dini himself of Heart of Ice and Joker's Favor. All brilliant writers bringing a wide range of elements to the film. As a minor nitpick: because of the number of writers, it did feel a little busy towards the end, where I didn't quite enjoy the dragged out Joker fight as much as others might have, especially since it felt out of place in a movie focused on the new original villain, like the producers had no faith that the Phantasm could stand on her own. I like Mark Hamill's performance as much as the next guy, but come on, Batman has a wide range of rogue's gallery worth mining from. It's like Superman fighting Lex Luthor again in Superman Returns and Batman v. Superman. But I get it. Since this was the first theatrical release of the animated series, they wanted to go big, and so the Joker was a no-brainer. Having said that, I like that when Joker had to pick between the knife or salami as a weapon, he went for the salami. That's the kind of whimsical psychopathy that defines the character accurately but you'd never get out of something like Ledger's Joker (no offense, RIP) or, ugh, Leto's.

Speaking of this being a theatrical release, I really like how the film opened up, with Shirley Walker brilliantly chanting the names of the show's composers and producers backwards in such an epic and operatic fashion. Listening to that choir sent chills down my spine. That CG pan of Gotham City still looks good today, really selling you that this is a very special big-screen version of the animated series. This is what a Batman movie should look, sound and feel like. Easily the best intro to any Batman movie, period, even more so than Burton's Batman (1989) if I could be honest. Even the end credits song, which could've been easily a generic pop song in any other animated debut of an animated series, was thematically appropriate in Phantasm, not to mention having that nostalgic feeling of the '90s, with that classy saxophone and Hans Zimmer's synthesizer giving that bittersweet romance vibe. I was thinking of Whitney Houston's Bodyguard track I Will Always Love You is what I'm saying. 😂

The last act of the movie aside, I find Phantasm to be a solid entry and easily a far superior film over most live action attempts; I definitely enjoyed it more than 2022's The Batman (which, like Phantasm, also borrowed elements from Batman: Year Two). I wouldn't really introduce it to a first timer who has no knowledge of Batman though because, as great as it is to learn what ultimate pushed Bruce into his caped persona, you'd really have to been through with Bruce for a while through the animated series to really care about him finally having a chance at happiness and tragically lost it. That quote, "I didn't count on being happy," carries more weight if you know what Bruce's deal is and have been following his adventures (and tragedies) for a while now. The same applies to Alfred's "You walk the edge of that abyss every night." But that being said, Andrea serves as a great foil to Bruce, with their quest for vengeance taking different paths. More than many of Batman's live action outings, Phantasm served as a fantastic character study of Bruce and his struggle between his pursuit of happiness and his vow to his parents.

Between Andrea and Selina though, Bruce sure knows how to pick 'em. lol I learned that in the tie-in comic to the movie, Bruce called Andrea a murderer upon meeting her again. Yikes. But to be fair, Bruce's own psyche, while well under control and stability, isn't really what you would call normal either, so I just couldn't really see him living a normal apple pie life with white pickets and barbecue. Of course, you'd have to wonder if Bruce's psyche was aggravated by the criminals of Gotham (especially The Killing Joke's events) or if he was messed up from the beginning (the movie suggests the former). The man literally has a contingency plan for each member of the Justice League in case he needs to kill them (although I don't know if that's ever brought up in the DCAU).

4.5/5 for the movie. Because of Warner Brother's shortening the timeline for a theatrical release, the animation quality isn't really impressive enough for a big-screen movie, but I still really like some of the shots here, especially when Bruce dons his cape for the first time in his life, much to Alfred's shock. "My god" indeed.

On an ending note, Dana Delaney did a fine job as Andrea here, but I'm looking forward more to her role as a certain confident reporter when I pick up Superman: TAS in the near future.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

4.5/5 for the movie. Because of Warner Brother's shortening the timeline for a theatrical release, the animation quality isn't really impressive enough for a big-screen movie,

Actually I LOVED the animation! Especially the scenes where Bats is hunkered down in the rain and we get flashbacks to his early relationship with Andrea. That shot looked so beautiful-it looked like an oil painting-so much detail. I know I’m not expressing myself very well, but it blew me away.

It’s why I hated the change to the cheap animation in the show’s final season.

I think I also read or maybe it was an interview that the reason the movie didn’t do so well was because it was released during the Christmas season?

But you’re right @MagnusHex, this movie is the BESTEST of any and all Batman movies. I still haven’t been able to rewatch the show or movies because I’m still grieving Kevin’s death. Even though I didn’t know him. I can’t explain it.

[Tenshinhan]

16 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

The last act of the movie aside, I find Phantasm to be a solid entry and easily a far superior film over most live action attempts;

I don't really think that it's particularly fair to compare this film to any live action attempts.  Not only is it animation, it's also rooted within the universe established in the television series.  Apples to oranges in my view.

 

16 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Of course, you'd have to wonder if Bruce's psyche was aggravated by the criminals of Gotham (especially The Killing Joke's events) or if he was messed up from the beginning (the movie suggests the former).

I don't think that Bruce is messed up at all.  He's determined, and dedicated to the job, but not unstable.  I'm not sure if he could ever live a normal life either, but not because of some kind of damaged psyche.

[MagnusHex]

4 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

I don't really think that it's particularly fair to compare this film to any live action attempts.  Not only is it animation, it's also rooted within the universe established in the television series.  Apples to oranges in my view.

I guess. But the point wasn't really to compare animation to live action whenever someone compares Phantasm to live action Batman films. I think we're lamenting that live action attempts have never been as stellar, which is a shame because I wouldn't mind watching a live action film as solid as Phantasm more often. There have been attempts, but few are nearly as great as the TAS entries.

 

4 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

I don't think that Bruce is messed up at all.  He's determined, and dedicated to the job, but not unstable.  I'm not sure if he could ever live a normal life either, but not because of some kind of damaged psyche.

Depends on which continuity you're referring to, I guess. TAS' Batman would probably be comparatively sane compared to his comic counterpart.

Edited March 27, 2023 by MagnusHex

[Tenshinhan]

1 hour ago, MagnusHex said:

Depends on which continuity you're referring to, I guess. TAS' Batman would probably be comparatively sane compared to his comic counterpart.

I was referring to both continuities actually.  I don't think that Batman has an unstable psyche in either, although the comic books have toyed with the idea in recent decades.  Certainly at the time Phantasm was made, Bruce in the comic books was still a sane and mentally healthy character, although just beginning to enter into an unstable era.

[MagnusHex]

2 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

I was referring to both continuities actually.  I don't think that Batman has an unstable psyche in either, although the comic books have toyed with the idea in recent decades.  Certainly at the time Phantasm was made, Bruce in the comic books was still a sane and mentally healthy character, although just beginning to enter into an unstable era.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, 'coz I think it's still up to interpretation in my opinion. But I guess my biasness with mental illness (living with a mentally ill and paranoid mother myself) doesn't help with my judgement.

[MagnusHex]

2x01: Sideshow

I swear, Batman's got a guardian angel or Lady Luck watching over him, the way Croc's tossed boulder misses his unconscious head by inches before the tranquilizer finally took effect. Either that, or it's plot-convenience, but I'll just pretend it's Bruce's luck.

I've never been a DC guy and have never read any DC comics, period (unless you count Watchmen), so Killer Croc's inclusion in Batman's rogue gallery has always befuddled me. The Man-Bat I get because at least that's a reflection of Batman's persona, a symbol made literal. But Killer Croc, at least in the two episodes of TAS up to this episode, has been portrayed as a dumb thug like how the Rhino was portrayed in media (in spite of him having some semblance of intelligence in his first outing, The Amazing Spider-Man #41). However, I've learned that Waylon Jones has more substance to his character in the comics, but I guess I won't find out any time soon what that is. Furthermore, I've learned that Croc was a Gerry Conway character... which makes a lot more sense (big Spidey fan here who read all the classic comics).

That said, I still like this episode for it is and appreciate the pathos of Croc succumbing to to his baser instincts (something Bruce trains to keep under control with discipline) and ended up destroying his one shot at happiness. Even if Batman has found him, if he had just stifled his killer instincts, the geeks might have accepted his lies and continued to let him stay.

And for all the deviations the show might have from the original version of Croc in the comics (before the retcon), I could respect how the writers committed to that change and stuck with it this episode, doing everything they could to sell the idea that Croc's more of an animal than a man with bad skin, from his "crocodile teeth" to the way the nature scene (as Batman chases Croc through the woods) was devoid of music, as if to imply Croc was blending in with nature. The final line where Croc admitted to Billy, perhaps in remorse even, that he couldn't help his animal instincts, was just the cherry on top of the nice characterization of Croc as a man torn between animal and man.

3.5/5

[Tenshinhan]

7 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

But Killer Croc, at least in the two episodes of TAS up to this episode, has been portrayed as a dumb thug like how the Rhino was portrayed in media (in spite of him having some semblance of intelligence in his first outing, The Amazing Spider-Man #41). However, I've learned that Waylon Jones has more substance to his character in the comics, but I guess I won't find out any time soon what that is. Furthermore, I've learned that Croc was a Gerry Conway character... which makes a lot more sense (big Spidey fan here who read all the classic comics).

Yeah, Killer Croc was originally a criminal genius who attempted to take over all of the mobs in Gotham.  It was the post-Crisis reboot where they turned him into dumb muscle in the late 80s/early 90s.

The Gerry Conway run on Batman is great and the Croc arc in particular was some of his best work in my view.

[MagnusHex]

2x02: A Bullet for Bullock

"I wonder how Gordon puts up with this.," - A hilarious moment from Harvey Bullock, after Batman pulled one of his iconic Batman Vanish

I would think that non-comic book readers might have mistaken Arnold Flass as Harvey Bullock in Batman Begins (at least until they mentioned Flass' name, but even then, the human memory can be a finicky thing). Or Hell, Max Eckhardt from Batman (1989) for that matter. And it's really not hard to see why people would make that mistake, given their similarities for corruption (and similar body shape). Plus, it's sometimes hard to remember the names of secondary characters, especially for an '89 movie released before you were born.

But in Bullock's defense, he's probably the least corrupted of the trio, with the other GCPD officers defending his good name. And on TAS, he's been shown to have his good side too as a servant of the law, which naturally turned around my initial negative impression of him over time. And as Harvey pointed out, one might easily make the presumption that he and Batman are similar in their own ways, given their tendency to "bend the law" to serve the greater good ("I didn't have time to observe the rules of the road, Alfred," or Bruce's tendency for B&E without warrant, and let's not even get into confessions under coercion or threat being inadmissible in court, which is practically Batman's entire legacy), but of course, Bruce doesn't think so this episode, probably not having too much love for Harvey's police brutality. I laughed though when Harvey called out on Bruce's "attitude problem" after he was rudely yanked into the Batmobile. It's acts like this that I can't help but enjoy the parodies of Batman's brooding persona trying to act more terrifying than he needs to be in certain situations.

"Passenger ejector seat." Dexter could learn a thing or two the next time Dee Dee asks "What does this button do?"

Of course, Harvey's a jerk who probably deserves Batman's roughhousing (though not so much the attempted murder), but man, what a slob too. I can't stand the sight of creepy roaches with their twitchy antennae and little legs, so I always keep my room relatively clean even though I'm lazy af as well. Nivens would love me.

I'm watching this episode in production order, and it's listed as episode 2 of season 2 on both the production order list and Wikipedia. But HBO Max not only has it as an episode from the 4th season, but it has that new(er) The Adventures of Batman & Robin intro and end titles as well (even though Robin isn't a recurring character yet), which caught me by surprise. Ah well.

I quite enjoyed this one. Always nice to see Batman stories with a cool detective noir atmosphere from that nice jazzy score, plus the amusing buddy cop shenanigans with Bullock. Nice to focus on the secondary characters from the GCPD every now and then.

Jeffrey Jones voicing Nivens, who claims that no jury would convict him... YIKES. That didn't age well fast.

4.5/5

[Tenshinhan]

I never liked how they turned Bullock into a jerk who hates Batman for this version, but it's not a bad character dynamic I admit.

I wish they had changed his first name though.  Having both him and Harvey Dent in the show was irritating.

46 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

I'm watching this episode in production order, and it's listed as episode 2 of season 2 on both the production order list and Wikipedia. But HBO Max not only has it as an episode from the 4th season, but it has that new(er) The Adventures of Batman & Robin intro and end titles as well (even though Robin isn't a recurring character yet), which caught me by surprise. Ah well.

Some of the "Season Two" episodes aired with the B&R intro and some didn't.  And 2x02  aired over a year after 2x01.

[MagnusHex]

2x03: Trial

I guess this episode definitively shuts down any doubts whether TAS' Batsy is responsible for his rogue's gallery's existence. It's a tired cliche anyway. Batman was no more responsible for Jack Napier's descent into Joker than Spidey was responsible for Eddie's transformation into Venom. It's like Janet Van Dorn said - they were responsible for Batman's existence, not the other way around.

Speaking of Ms. Van Dorn, she really grew on me quickly over the course of the episode, swiftly earning my respect as she laid down the hard truths about Bat's rogues gallery and manipulated the villains to fighting each other (mostly Harley and Joker and getting Ivy to lose her shit). Even more impressive is how she got the villain juries to spit out a "Not Guilty" verdict (the Joker deciding to kill them anyway makes sense, so it's not a cop-out).

Too bad this was Stephanie Zimbalist's final time as Janet on TAS because she provides a nice balance to the character of Batman on the legislation side of Gotham (now that the only notable DA had a gruesome facelift). Plus, as far as Batman antagonists on the side of the law go, she's a more positive force of balance than Amanda Waller (though the wall's a much more interesting opposing force). 

I read that this story was going to be the plot for Mask of the Phantasm, which in my opinion, would've probably made that movie even more interesting for me (though I did like Phantasm). A whole movie cross-examining Batman's rogues gallery and questioning whether Batman is responsible for his villains? I know I said it's a cliche (usually in the comics), but for a big-screen story, that made more sense, not to mention how it's rarely been done before for superhero movies (except Batman movies) at the time of Phantasm's release, the psychological question of whether the hero is responsible for the villains' existence.

Finally, I like that Bruce also bears the sentiment that he hopes to rid Gotham of the need for Batman and give up the cape someday. Unfortunately, that might not be possible if Batman Beyond is taken into consideration (or the alternate universe Dark Knight Returns for that matter). Hell, even Nolan believed that Bruce needed to pass on the legacy instead of abolishing Batman altogether. But one could hope. I heard that Batman Inc. is a thing.

4.5/5 for a strong episode and Janet's great characterization.

Edited March 31, 2023 by MagnusHex

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Too bad this was Stephanie Zimbalist's final time as Janet on TAS because she provides a nice balance to the character of Batman on the legislation side of Gotham (now that the only notable DA had a gruesome facelift).

This was the ONLY time Stephanie played Janet. The first time was played by Lynette Mettey, in “Shadow of the Bat” when she’s tell Babs her father is guilty.

I remember being disappointed her Janet and Alfred didn’t share any scenes, as she and Efrem were father and daughter. After all, he appeared in several episodes of Remington Steele to play against her.

[MagnusHex]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This was the ONLY time Stephanie played Janet. The first time was played by Lynette Mettey, in “Shadow of the Bat” when she’s tell Babs her father is guilty.

Well, regardless, I wouldn't have minded a DA antagonist nonetheless. On the police force side, we have someone like Bullock, but Janet served a nice counterbalance to Batman in law and order from the courtroom.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, MagnusHex said:

Well, regardless, I wouldn't have minded a DA antagonist nonetheless. On the police force side, we have someone like Bullock, but Janet served a nice counterbalance to Batman in law and order from the courtroom.

Oh I’m not disagreeing with you. Your initial comment about this being Stephanie’s last time, was incorrect. As she only voiced her this one time. And I also preferred her Janet over Lynette’s.

[MagnusHex]

2x04: Avatar

BATMAN. IN. EGYPT!!! AKA that one Batman episode crossed over with Indiana Jones, with a dash of Scooby-Doo when Batman pulled a Velma impression on Ubu when he unmasked him. Not that it's a knock on the episode, but I found it amusing. "Jinkies! It's old man Ubu!" 

For a moment there, I'd thought the cloaked Ubu to be the return of Phantasm, considering the similar design in their silhouette . Then again, I already knew that she wouldn't appear in the DCAU again till the Justice League: Unlimited episode, Epilogue.

Corporeal gods are often disappointing, especially when you take a look at how weak those supposed god-like beings can be in CW's Supernatural (in fact, Thoth Khepera would fit in easily in that show, being a generic mummy/zombie creature Sam and Dean kill every Tuesday). Even Star Trek's Gary Mitchell and Charlie Evans proved to be far more superior in their capability than Thoth, the supposed "goddess of immortality" who's easily killed by falling debris. Then again, I guess this variation of Batman isn't quite ready to fight someone on the level of Darkseid yet.

I liked Talia's betrayal though. It didn't come off as cheap because of course Talia would betray Batman to ensure he escapes the from arms of the law. She's even remorseful for it. And it also made sense that Batman didn't disarm her, even though he could have easily.

3/5

[MagnusHex]

2x05: House & Garden

"Goodbye, Mr. Wayne."

What? lol Does the Plant Creature assume that Bruce Wayne can't swim or something? It's not from a very great height that he fell from, so any surface tension wouldn't harm him much even if he's not Batman. Though to be fair, its intelligence is questionable, considering we don't know how fast these things grow at a natural rate (without the plant steroids Ivy pumped them with at the end of this episode) and how smart they are.

It's a shame things turn out this way. I wouldn't have minded settling for a more generic villain if it meant Pamela could have been reformed. That would have made for a nice refreshing change in one of Batman's rogues gallery for once, someone who could reform like criminals could in real life. It would also prove that Batman villains can be reformed, and incarcerating them and fighting them again when they break out in an endless crusade that lasts forever isn't necessary, especially for villains who used to be on the right side of justice like Harvey Dent (who has actually been cured multiple times in the comics, even fighting crime in Batman's place).

But as it is, I can't complain either because I love how twisted Ivy's plan was. I felt so disturbed watching those babies crawl out from those plants, especially when you consider how little Pamela values these offspring. There's something sympathetic to her plan, especially if you consider her confession that she's infertile to be true, and yet the way they burn out after being used as Pamela's disposable bodyguards just makes me question just how much value she places on the value of her "family." I believe she merely likes the idea of a family, but in terms of appreciating them as sentient lifeforms (as opposed to disposable tools one pumps quick-growth steroids with), maybe not so much.

That being said, it doesn't take away from the pathos of Ivy's newly layered character in TAS. Paul Dini did a great job fleshing her out, as I've always found her tree-hugging extremism to be too simple of a motive for a Batman villain, and infertility as a motive for a children's cartoon is beyond ambitious for Dini. Now if he could only fix the Penguin (I also heard Catwoman was did dirty on TAS, though my memory's unclear on that one except remembering the notorious Tyger Tyger).

4.5/5

Side note: Poor Dick, cockblocked by Bruce. I would say he and Barbara are meant to be together, but Batman Beyond 2.0 would prove otherwise with Bruce's affair with her... though I don't know if that's canon. Then again, even if it's canon, I remember seeing an old Barbara who's still in love with Dick in the Batman Beyond movie.

[Tenshinhan]

4 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

That being said, it doesn't take away from the pathos of Ivy's newly layered character in TAS. Paul Dini did a great job fleshing her out, as I've always found her tree-hugging extremism to be too simple of a motive for a Batman villain, and infertility as a motive for a children's cartoon is beyond ambitious for Dini. Now if he could only fix the Penguin (I also heard Catwoman was did dirty on TAS, though my memory's unclear on that one except remembering the notorious Tyger Tyger).

I think that not every Batman villain needed to be given layers.  Some characters are just greedy, sick, or love crime. 

I'm not sure why they even bothered giving Mr. Freeze layers, but I guess someone behind the scenes must have really liked the character.

[MagnusHex]

29 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

I think that not every Batman villain needed to be given layers.  Some characters are just greedy, sick, or love crime. 

True, but TAS' version of Penguin lacking layers is one reason why I never found his episodes interesting.

30 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

I'm not sure why they even bothered giving Mr. Freeze layers, but I guess someone behind the scenes must have really liked the character.

Eh, I like it though. Mr. Freeze's tragic background makes him one of my favorite Batman villains.

[MagnusHex]

2x06: The Terrible Trio

Our first real dud of the season, though not the first of the series. But with more than 60 episodes in the first season alone, a few duds among both seasons isn't too shabby. That said, it does remind me of a discussion on Reddit when comparing Batman: TAS with Superman: TAS. According to Redditors, the former has higher quality episodes but in a less consistent manner, whereas the latter is consistently good, but never to the heights of Batman. Still looking forward to watching it and the rest of DCAU someday though.

The trio of jokesters Bruce got to fight this episode is pretty mediocre, but that's nothing really new for the world of comic book superheroes. You'd always get a Frog-Man or Paste-Pot Pete somewhere between great storylines, especially for a long-running series, so I'm pretty used to it and gave this a mere shrug.

I gotta admit though, despite calling it a dud, I wanted to like it at first, and I sort of did, at first. It's not one of Bats' more iconic rogues for sure, and Penguin pretty much already covered being the billionaire gone bad angle (even though the concept of exploring what Bruce Wayne would've been like had he not lose his parents at a young age like these frat boys is interesting... on paper), but I initially liked them for their ability to outwit both Bats and Robin. It's not exactly a four-dimensional chess move to put civilians in Bats' way, but the effort should be acknowledged. But then Warren Lawford let a piece of evidence loose in front of Rebecca Fallbrook and imprinting his ring on her father's jaw... annnd he's down to the idiot booth. They can be clever alright, but as Bats said: experts in arrogance.

I kinda laughed a bit when Bats said "scoundrels like these are worse than the Joker - at least he has madness as an excuse." I get the logic of that, but these are just spoiled frat boys. It's hard to take them as seriously as someone like the Joker. Must be a slow day at the Batcave.

Furthermore, their costume is just ridiculous. I get that they were from a Batman comic, but it feels more like they belonged in one of the goofier Spider-Man comics than Batman, particularly one starring Paste-Pot Pete. A bat motif and costume is cool; the fox, vulture and shark motifs for the trio aren't really working out, looking more like Halloween costumes.

Also, who talks like that in real life? “A valiant effort, stout sentinel, but the game was ours before it began.” There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's "Waitwut? Am I watching the wrong show?" Campy and hammy, and yet somehow still mediocre villains.

But perhaps I'm being too harsh about it since, as is the case with I've Got Batman in My Basement, these two episodes are reminders that this is still a Saturday morning cartoon of sorts targeting children. It just happens to be darker than your average kids cartoon. That's why when Batman conveniently saves Rebecca at the last precise moment, just happening to fly by at that very last second, I gave it a pass for just being a cartoon. Then again, Bats does have a flair for the dramatics and theatricality, so it might make sense (also the reason for his Stealth Hi/Bye when he mysteriously vanishes mid-conversation).

But cartoon or not, the animation quality's no excuse though. Done by Jade Animation instead of the usual Dong Yang, Rebecca's facial expression was so obviously distorted in one scene even I noticed it, even though I don't usually pay attention to these details (ironic when watching an animation to not pay attention to the animation quality, I know, but cut me some slack; I have an attention disorder, probably).

The only satisfying part of the episode might be the ending when Warren's cellmate is about to have a new bitch in the form of a privileged frat boy. I got HBO Oz vibes watching that scene. Then again, prison rape is such a touchy subject I'm not going to touch that with a ten-foot pole.

More points off for Robin being completely useless this episode.

1.5/5

[Tenshinhan]

18 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Furthermore, their costume is just ridiculous. I get that they were from a Batman comic, but it feels more like they belonged in one of the goofier Spider-Man comics than Batman, particularly one starring Paste-Pot Pete. A bat motif and costume is cool; the fox, vulture and shark motifs for the trio aren't really working out, looking more like Halloween costumes.

I think it aligns well with the Batman comics.  Not every criminal is a supervillain like the others.  For some it's just a gimmick and not much more.  Given the Trio's backstory I think it makes sense for the characters.

One thing I appreciate about the Animated Series is that they used stories from all throughout the different eras of Batman comics.  You get episodes of silly camp right alongside the serious and dramatic stories.  This was especially important for a children's cartoon show.

[MagnusHex]

40 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

I think it aligns well with the Batman comics.  Not every criminal is a supervillain like the others.  For some it's just a gimmick and not much more.  Given the Trio's backstory I think it makes sense for the characters.

It makes sense, but that doesn't mean it's interesting. It's why nobody bothers to show Spider-Man fighting ordinary street-level mafia even though they actually did that in the comics. Nobody would pay to see that on the big screen or even the little screen. Something that's realistic and sensible doesn't always translate to something that's engaging. I wouldn't want to watch an entire episode with Bruce having meetings at Wayne Tower, for example.

 

40 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

One thing I appreciate about the Animated Series is that they used stories from all throughout the different eras of Batman comics.  You get episodes of silly camp right alongside the serious and dramatic stories.  This was especially important for a children's cartoon show.

I suppose. The thing that drew me to the show was something more different, that it's filled with more mature content than your average Saturday morning cartoon, as is appropriate for a Batman show. It's what made the series revolutionary for its time, a dark show for children about a vigilante beating up the criminally insane at night while dressed in a bat costume himself.

Given time, I might be able to appreciate the moments of camp for the kiddies, and I do accept them for what they are... but I call it like I see it as an adult audience member in terms of my own enjoyment of the episode. I don't really enjoy camp, especially when it applies to Batman stories. I probably wouldn't even watch The Brave and the Bold even though I heard great things.

Edited April 14, 2023 by MagnusHex

[MagnusHex]

2x07: Harlequinade

I've seen snippets of this episode on YouTube and I could already tell it's gonna be a fun one. Ol' Batsy and Harley teaming up. You won't find that in the DCEU (or even a proper movie centered on Joker and Harley for that matter, though Todd Phillips might correct that with Folie à Deux), but that might hopefully change for Gunn's upcoming DCU, given that he has worked on Harley's character before for his Suicide Squad.

After last episode's mediocre trio, Paul Dini brought the series back to its roots with Bats' classic rogues, but with a spin: Lady Harleen Quinzel herself being more of the focus here than the clown prince of crime (though the latter's obviously involved as well). I like how the title card by Eric Radomski makes Harley look like a Bond girl on a James Bond poster, which is appropriate given that Harley, like one of those Bond femme fatales, is still an untrustworthy ally who's in love with her precious Mr. J.

Arleen Sorkin turned in great voice work for Harley as usual, and it's always fun listening to her play out Harley's bubbly nature alongside Bats' straight man. Part of the fun of watching this odd pair is that Paul straddles a nice balance where I wasn't sure whether Harley would betray Bats at a whim or not, and watching the accomplice to a psychotic killer assist Batman and Robin out of a room full of gun-totting mafia feels true to the character's whimsical nature in TAS. She might have ended up double-crossing Bats, but not before having a little song and dance in a fun escapade with the dynamic duo first.

I like how it ended too, with the B&R pairing turning the J&H couple against each other, and Harley pulling the trigger on Joker too, which thoroughly impressed the latter. As much as I enjoyed seeing a chance for Batman villains' rehabilitation in previous episodes this season (and a chance for Harley to become Bats' temporary sidekick in this one), Harley's mad love staying true despite all the abuse and Joker hugging the woman that tried to kill him just feels true to character regardless.

4.5/5

[MagnusHex]

2x08: Time Out of Joint

This episode, Batman learns what it feels like to be The Flash.

I liked The Clock King in his debut specifically because of his lack of superpowers or even special gadgets; he had to rely on his wit alone against Bats. Furthermore, what made him special wasn't really a knock-off sci-fi device, but his interesting (albeit petty) motive against Mayor Hill, lamenting his lost time while also wasting it on petty revenge.

And now he's just back wasting more time on revenge. With the device he had stolen from Dr. Wakati, he could have made a fortune recovering from his bankruptcy, but I guess the ego prevails over reason for supervillains.

This was a relatively fun episode with some cool gimmicks in The Clock King's newfound time powers, but the novelty kinda wears off. Everything cool about the villain initially also fades away as he's defeated in just a way as lame as his gimmick - Robin trips him and he falls on his fragile device.

One thing to note is that in the production order of the series, this is the first episode to be plagued by the new Adventures of Batman and Robin intro as part of the promotion of Robin's debut in Batman Forever. Oliver Sava of AV Club wrote, "The introduction of Batman: The Animated Series suggests a certain level of sophistication in the episode to come, whereas The Adventures of Batman & Robin just seems like every other children’s show. And the contents of “Time Out Of Joint” don’t do much to change that." I very much agree. While not necessarily a childish plot, there's not much done here with the Clock King compared to his previous outing other than make him some guy with a neat stolen gadget he didn't even invent, befitting your typical villain of the day Batman and Robin must stop to save the day. All that separates him from your Adam West villain are cheesy time puns, except both Fugate and Robin have that covered as well.

On an off topic note, I never understood the appeal of American cartoon puns as I grew up watching anime and their more serious dialogue. I remember watching a few clips from the American dub of Digimon, and how everyone loved it more than the original Japanese version, and I was simply befuddled at the appeal of those stupid puns that the original anime lacked, especially when that humor was present to lighten to the tone of the serious plot about children facing the concept of death in the first place.

On the topic of Wakati's device, it's a shame such a useful device for humanity has forever been lost because of a Saturday morning cartoon villain's foolery. If only real world governments are that courteous about potential WMDs; one mistake by some idiot and the invention's forever banished. Ah well. That's Gotham for you. *snare drums*

2.5/5

[MagnusHex]

2x09: Catwalk

Ah, I related to Catwoman so much this episode. To feel like a loner forever trapped to walk the tightrope of society, never to fit in anywhere as you put on a smiling face instead of speaking your mind (that goes double for being a woman speaking her mind at risk of being labeled a bitch, even though she had a good point about Veronica Vreeland's legacy). There's romance to that outlook of life even amidst the loneliness, and I could definitely understand Selina's desire for that freedom and excitement.

Like many of Batman's rogues, if not all, Catwoman's not gonna turn a new leaf any time soon, but a kleptomaniac thief is pretty low on the list of dangerous criminals Batman should put a stop to, and I don't really mind seeing the bat and the cat doing their little danger for a while more. The thief and the detective's rivalry has been played out way too many times, but Catwoman's special relationship with Batman is novel enough that I'm not tired yet of seeing that spark further develop.

4/5

[Tenshinhan]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:06 AM, MagnusHex said:

One thing to note is that in the production order of the series, this is the first episode to be plagued by the new Adventures of Batman and Robin intro as part of the promotion of Robin's debut in Batman Forever.

I enjoy the second opening, especially with the classic Walker theme playing.  Yeah it might be less original than the first opening, but it really captures the spirit of Batman well.  It's also nice when the show steps out of the Elfman/Burton shadow.  I think this series was at its best when they did their own thing and weren't following the Tim Burton films.

[MagnusHex]

6 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

I enjoy the second opening, especially with the classic Walker theme playing.  Yeah it might be less original than the first opening, but it really captures the spirit of Batman well.  It's also nice when the show steps out of the Elfman/Burton shadow.  I think this series was at its best when they did their own thing and weren't following the Tim Burton films.

I disagree on whether it captures the spirit of Batman well, at least compared to the previous intro (and that's not counting my problems with Robin in the first place, or Bruce recruiting kids into his army).

[Tenshinhan]

8 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I disagree on whether it captures the spirit of Batman well, at least compared to the previous intro (and that's not counting my problems with Robin in the first place, or Bruce recruiting kids into his army).

Children being superheroes and crime-fighters is all a part of comic book fantasy, so it doesn't really bother me personally.

I guess this series at least sidesteps the problem by having Robin be college aged.

[MagnusHex]

2x10: Bane

Batman tells Killer Croc as he leaves, "Later Gator."

Bane's only appearance in TAS is pretty lackluster, but at least it's better than his appearance in Batman & Robin as a dumb brute. Here, he's at the minimum  Kraven the Hunter level of intelligence (with all the similar mannerism of wanting to hunt the Bat as a prey), but if what I've read about Bane in the comics is true, the network toned him down for the cartoon, something that surprises me considering how dark TAS has been before (then again, this Adventures of Batman and Robin era seemed to be promoting those goofier, cheesier and more family-friendly Kilmer/Clooney movies, so maybe not that surprising). Before this, we've had a string of very strong character study episodes offering further depth to various members of Batman's rogues gallery, so this downward spiral beginning from that mediocre frat boys trio is a disappointment.

Gail Simone's Bane this definitely ain't.

Robin remains a useless damsel as always, not to mention getting trapped in an Adam West death trap (instead of being unmasked and drowned immediately, so you know it's either a Saturday morning cartoon... or a Bond movie; "No, Mr. Grayson, I expect you to die!"). I used to think that Robin in Teen Titans was nerfed down considerably and was a pretty mediocre combatant. But now that I've seen his TAS version... yeah, TT Robin will kick his ass.

2/5 and let's call it a day. Moving on.

Edited April 20, 2023 by MagnusHex

[MagnusHex]

2x11: Baby-Doll

"I didn't mean to..."

Ahh, I really like this one. Teared up in the end even though I was already told it's gonna be an emotional one. It helps that I knew about the kind of struggles many child stars lived through, having that one purpose in your life vanish away when you grow up and then told to move on to the real world. Paul Dini did a good job of making Dahl sinister yet very human and broken at the same time. She's still a criminal that tried to blow her co-stars up, of course, but I love how there's an underlying pain and loneliness in her actions, especially towards the end. And the worst part is that much of that pain stemmed from her body's condition, forcing her to be literally stuck in her childhood against her attempts to break out into adult roles.

Worth mentioning, of course, is the fact that Bruce is also someone who didn't have a proper childhood before being forced to grow up. I know not every villain needs to have some parallels with Batman, but it's nice to see that similar path in life gone awry for someone else.

4.5/5

[Lantern7]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:39 AM, MagnusHex said:

2x11: Baby-Doll

"I didn't mean to..."

Ahh, I really like this one. Teared up in the end even though I was already told it's gonna be an emotional one. It helps that I knew about the kind of struggles many child stars lived through, having that one purpose in your life vanish away when you grow up and then told to move on to the real world. Paul Dini did a good job of making Dahl sinister yet very human and broken at the same time. She's still a criminal that tried to blow her co-stars up, of course, but I love how there's an underlying pain and loneliness in her actions, especially towards the end. And the worst part is that much of that pain stemmed from her body's condition, forcing her to be literally stuck in her childhood against her attempts to break out into adult roles.

Worth mentioning, of course, is the fact that Bruce is also someone who didn't have a proper childhood before being forced to grow up. I know not every villain needs to have some parallels with Batman, but it's nice to see that similar path in life gone awry for someone else.

4.5/5

Is it weird I see Baby becoming someone who tries to help cons get a fresh start? And she’d wind up with a new niche with voice acting. No romancing crocodile-men, though. She learned that lesson.

[MagnusHex]

23 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

And she’d wind up with a new niche with voice acting.

True. But it's the '90s. Cartoons weren't really taken as seriously back then. Even Batman was just getting started revolutionizing children's animation.

Edited June 13, 2023 by MagnusHex

[kathyk24]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:39 AM, MagnusHex said:

2x11: Baby-Doll

"I didn't mean to..."

Ahh, I really like this one. Teared up in the end even though I was already told it's gonna be an emotional one. It helps that I knew about the kind of struggles many child stars lived through, having that one purpose in your life vanish away when you grow up and then told to move on to the real world. Paul Dini did a good job of making Dahl sinister yet very human and broken at the same time. She's still a criminal that tried to blow her co-stars up, of course, but I love how there's an underlying pain and loneliness in her actions, especially towards the end. And the worst part is that much of that pain stemmed from her body's condition, forcing her to be literally stuck in her childhood against her attempts to break out into adult roles.

Worth mentioning, of course, is the fact that Bruce is also someone who didn't have a proper childhood before being forced to grow up. I know not every villain needs to have some parallels with Batman, but it's nice to see that similar path in life gone awry for someone else.

4.5/5

I loved this episode along with Harley's Holiday they are my favorite episodes from the whole series. She could have her own reality show today. There is a show called I am Shauna Rae on TLC about a woman in her twenties who is the size of a child due to cancer affecting her growth. A series like this would be ideal for Baby Doll.

[kathyk24]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:47 AM, MagnusHex said:

2x09: Catwalk

Ah, I related to Catwoman so much this episode. To feel like a loner forever trapped to walk the tightrope of society, never to fit in anywhere as you put on a smiling face instead of speaking your mind (that goes double for being a woman speaking her mind at risk of being labeled a bitch, even though she had a good point about Veronica Vreeland's legacy). There's romance to that outlook of life even amidst the loneliness, and I could definitely understand Selina's desire for that freedom and excitement.

Like many of Batman's rogues, if not all, Catwoman's not gonna turn a new leaf any time soon, but a kleptomaniac thief is pretty low on the list of dangerous criminals Batman should put a stop to, and I don't really mind seeing the bat and the cat doing their little danger for a while more. The thief and the detective's rivalry has been played out way too many times, but Catwoman's special relationship with Batman is novel enough that I'm not tired yet of seeing that spark further develop.

4/5

Most of the villains in Batman TAS actually have some good qualities. Catwoman does care about animal welfare and treats her assistant with respect. Poison Ivy develops a close friendship with  Harley Quinn. Mr. Freeze loved his wife most of the other villains are mentally ill rather than pure evil. The Joker is the outlier he's pure evil.

[MagnusHex]

2x12: The Lion and the Unicorn

That's not how nukes work. I guess technically, it was a missile, but Batman literally blew it a short distance away from the Big Ben in mid-air, so there had to have been some form of collateral damage at least.

Other than that laugh-out-loud resolution, I guess it's an okay episode. I haven't seen the Pennyworth spin-off, but I knew of Alfred's reputation for kicking ass. It's just too bad Alfred took a backseat here while Batman did most of the kick-ass. Would have been nice to see an elder Alfred go on some spy mission or something, Kingsman style even.

Plus, Red Claw is a lame villain. She makes most Bond villains look sophisticated by comparison. She also has teleportation powers here it seems because she conveniently appeared in the Batwing, just hiding there the whole time waiting for Batman to show up just to make a weak attempt at ambushing him. At least plant a bomb in his seat or something, lady.

2.5/5

[Twilight Man]

Arleen Sorkin has passed away at 67.

First Kevin, and now Arleen.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, Twilight Man said:

Arleen Sorkin has passed away at 67.

First Kevin, and now Arleen.

I know, right? Like Kevin, SHE was Harley.

[baldryanr]

A real shame - 67 is too young for someone to pass away.

Her successors have done a good job, but I can't imagine the character becoming as popular as she is without Sorkin's incredible voice work bringing her to life.  Pretty good for someone who was only introduced because the writers thought it was weird to have Joker jump out of a cake (but ended up having him do it anyway).

Speaking of her debut (Joker's Favor), in retrospect it's a real shame Charlie had such good reflexes.  If he was a little bit slower he would have T-boned the Joker and saved everyone a lot of trouble in the future.

[Tenshinhan]

Really dislike the character and everything she represents, but Sorkin's performance was one of a kind and the impact undeniable.

[Spartan Girl]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:35 PM, Twilight Man said:

Arleen Sorkin has passed away at 67.

First Kevin, and now Arleen.

Protect Mark Hamill AT ALL COSTS.

I am not even kidding.

[Twilight Man]

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Protect Mark Hamill AT ALL COSTS.

I am not even kidding.

Keep up the good work, whoever you are.

[Twilight Man]

All three featurettes are available on

the brand-new 30th anniversary Blu-Ray of "Phantasm":

 

Kevin Conroy:  I Am The Knight

Behind The Scenes:  Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill

Kevin Conroy:  Becoming Batman

Edited September 13, 2023 by Twilight Man

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Twilight Man said:

All three featurettes are available on

the brand-new 30th anniversary Blu-Ray of "Phantasm":

 

Kevin Conroy:  I Am The Knight

Behind The Scenes:  Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill

Kevin Conroy:  Becoming Batman

It arrived today!!! But I want NO INTERRUPTIONS when I watch so it will have to wait till Friday. I know I’ll be 😭😭 when I watch the featurettes.

[MagnusHex]

2x14: Riddler's Reform

While I would prefer not to see another "reform fake-out" episode, this is a solidly written episode, and I'm really enjoying these episodes of villain highlight in season 2, including last episode's Ra's Al Ghul and Jonah Hex mash-up. It's always fascinating examining the psyche of Batman villains, and Edward's obsession and his narcissism here are a delight as always, especially with how his obsession with knowledge ultimately become his own living hell when he couldn't figure out Batman's mean of escape.

That said... seriously? He couldn't figure out that Batsy hid in a safe? I guess you could excuse that as Edward being too proud to figure out such an obvious ploy, especially when it's coming from the master detective himself. Other than that small nitpick, I was thoroughly entertained. That possibility that Edward could reform if only he lets go of his obsession with being the smartest man in the room, it's fun to watch.

4/5

[MagnusHex]

2x15: Second Chance

I really dig this one. Aside from just being yet another really excellent episode focusing on the reform of a compelling Batman villain, it's also the episode that puts any Robin critics thus far to silence as he shows his competency to be more than just Batman's "kid sidekick." It's a neat little slice of self-awareness that I appreciate. 

Bruce and Harvey's relationship continues to be as tragic as ever. If any one of Batman villains deserve reform the most, it's perhaps Harvey, whose deformed state Batman clearly felt guilty for. In Batman's dark hour, however, a Robin had his back with him peppy cheer, especially when he probably understands how your judgment can be clouded by such a personal stake.

It's just an all around excellent character study for Bruce, Dick and Harvey. Harv's obsession with relying on the coin for answers is on full display here with him being at his most manic state I've seen thus far on the show, practically going into a panic attack when the coin couldn't give him his much needed answer. It's a nice pitiable display of how far gone Harvey is.

For what it's worth, at least Harvey knows ol' reliable Bruce will always have his friend's back.

5/5

[MagnusHex]

2x16: Harley's Holiday

Despite the fact that we've been getting nothing but villain reform storylines for almost the entirety of this season, it's still an effective storyline that I've been asking for earlier, so I can't complain. 😂And you can see how well it works too this episode, with Batman finally going out of his way to not just cram criminals into Arkham like sardines, but attempt to reform and rehabilitate them as well. Bats and Harley's relationship here is both amusing and compelling, with him trying to bring back the former Harleen Quinzel back.

It's also a pretty fun episode too that moves at a good clip. Tanks! Harley walking the streets with her pet hyenas! Mafia action! Robin slapping thugs silly with fishes! Harley's attempts to be a good person again is also admirable, if painful to watch because of how a simple misunderstanding led her down the usual path again.

Overall, another solid entry.

4.5/5

[Twilight Man]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:35 PM, Twilight Man said:

Arleen Sorkin has passed away at 67.

First Kevin, and now Arleen.

 

On 8/30/2023 at 9:29 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Protect Mark Hamill AT ALL COSTS.

I am not even kidding.

We were all guessing it would be Mark next.

We were wrong.

Goodbye Richard.

 

[Lantern7]

Eighty is a good age for a guy as big as Richard. Also, I think it goes without saying that his Harvey was the best one. Granted, there’s not much competition, but he was able to inject the necessary tragedy into Two-Face. And wasn’t he also the voice of the Bat-Computer?

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

And wasn’t he also the voice of the Bat-Computer?

Yes.

[Tenshinhan]

18 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Also, I think it goes without saying that his Harvey was the best one. Granted, there’s not much competition, but he was able to inject the necessary tragedy into Two-Face. 

Moll was very good, but I don't think it's fair to compare his character with other versions.  The show created a whole new backstory for Harvey, and the writing leaned heavily into the tragedy as it typically did, so Moll had a lot more to work with compared to others.

[Twilight Man]

19 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

And wasn’t he also the voice of the Bat-Computer?

In the very first episode, "On Leather Wings", Richard voiced the security guard, 

Harvey Dent, and the Bat-Computer, making it a half-hour of complete bull.