The Tudors (2007) - General Discussion

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I always wondered about it. I think for the first time, Katherine was married to a man of her choosing and was happy beyond belief. I think she indulged him, thinking it was all innocent, when maybe in the back of her mind part of her wondered about it, but so besotted was she that she couldn't admit it to herself. I also think she took part in some incidents because maybe a part of her figured she could make it seem like "just fun" and not anything more. Perhaps this was subconsciously?

When it finally hit her and she knew just what he was up to, I don't think she sent Elizabeth away in anger or to get her away from her abuser, I think she sent Elizabeth away to protect her marriage and soon to be born baby. And she probably also saw it as the best solution for Elizabeth before something ruined her. 

Yes, Katherine was finally “free” and married to a man she was in love with. It would be easy to not immediately see something was amiss. Also she saw Elizabeth as her very own daughter, she’s not going to see her as “sexual competition” right off the bat, or think her own damn husband she had been waiting on all those years would be so scummy. 
 

But everything else shows how great of a stepmother she was to Elizabeth and Edward (and friend go Mary given they were peers). I don’t think she was jealous or angry at her- but I can believe she sent her away (the girl wasn’t put outdoors obviously she was the King’s daughter with access to tons of funds) for a variety of reasons given the social structure of the time. Had Katherine lived they likely would’ve reconciled. 

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes, Katherine was finally “free” and married to a man she was in love with. It would be easy to not immediately see something was amiss. Also she saw Elizabeth as her very own daughter, she’s not going to see her as “sexual competition” right off the bat, or think her own damn husband she had been waiting on all those years would be so scummy. 
 

But everything else shows how great of a stepmother she was to Elizabeth and Edward (and friend go Mary given they were peers). I don’t think she was jealous or angry at her- but I can believe she sent her away (the girl wasn’t put outdoors obviously she was the King’s daughter with access to tons of funds) for a variety of reasons given the social structure of the time. Had Katherine lived they likely would’ve reconciled. 

I think that would have too. 

[libgirl2]

I have also read different accounts about how Elizabeth felt about Thomas Seymour and what he did to her. Some accounts were that she was in love with him, others repulsed and others while initially charmed, she soon grew weary of it. 

I could see her possibly being taken with him. This a girl who was treated so poorly by her father and others might have welcomed his attentions (not that she was trying to seduce him!), perhaps had a crush on him or just hoped that he could be a father figure. When things went too far, did she realize what jeopardy she was putting herself into (and also jeopardizing her relationship with Katherine) or did she realize that he was abusing her? 

 

[Scarlett45]

On 8/21/2020 at 3:20 PM, libgirl2 said:

I have also read different accounts about how Elizabeth felt about Thomas Seymour and what he did to her. Some accounts were that she was in love with him, others repulsed and others while initially charmed, she soon grew weary of it. 

I could see her possibly being taken with him. This a girl who was treated so poorly by her father and others might have welcomed his attentions (not that she was trying to seduce him!), perhaps had a crush on him or just hoped that he could be a father figure. When things went too far, did she realize what jeopardy she was putting herself into (and also jeopardizing her relationship with Katherine) or did she realize that he was abusing her? 

 

It might have been a little of both. From all accounts Thomas Seymour was a handsome charming man- I could see a 13/14yrs old girl relishing in attention and thinking he was attractive, kinda liking that he saw her as a “woman” and not a little girl, but at the same time being creeped out at him crossing socially appropriate lines for their culture. 
 

Elizabeth was of marriageable age (so it wasn’t a “too young” thing) but Thomas was married to her step mother and her virtue had to be protected, so yeah he had no business treating her the way he was even by the standards of the day. And I can see Elizabeth really loving Katherine yet feeling displaced by her pregnancy and concerned about the baby she was having being her primary concern. 
 

Likely there were a lot of feelings, human relationships being what they are. 

[kieyra]

We did a full rewatch of this recently. It still holds up pretty well, although it’s such a relief when they decide to be a bit more historically accurate from season 2 onwards. 

Years later, I’ll still watch anything with Natalie Dormer in it. 

[ChelleGame]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:05 AM, kieyra said:

We did a full rewatch of this recently. It still holds up pretty well, although it’s such a relief when they decide to be a bit more historically accurate from season 2 onwards. 

Years later, I’ll still watch anything with Natalie Dormer in it. 

I just started the rewatch as well. I will be a Dormer fan forever because of her portrayal here.

On watching a second time, I was much more sympathetic and interested in the Catherine Howard story.

I read YOUNG AND DAMNED AND FAIR: The Life of Catherine Howard, Fifth Wife of Henry VIII by Gareth Russell.

A really well-written, well researched book. I saw Gareth speak on his tour and he's engaging and funny and serious about his research. Currently reading his new book about the Titanic.

Anyway, that book was on my mind when Catherine's story started.

[Spartan Girl]

To get myself properly pumped up for SIX!!! next month, I find myself rewatching this show, mostly season 1 and 2. I’m sorry but some of the headpieces the queens wear are hideous…and probably inaccurate lol.

Man, I just love Sarah Bolger’s Mary. She really was the master of keeping a straight face in public and finally letting her guard drop and break down when she was alone. I live for her relationship with Chapuys. And however inaccurately it was portrayed, her brief romance with Hot Captain Hook Duke Philip was probably the best romance on the whole show—which is really sad when you think about it.

Whatever I think of JRM, I can’t stop staring at his full rosebud lips. Whaaaat?

[psychoticstate]

I decided to watch this show again last week via Amazon Prime and am now a few episodes towards the end in Season 4.  

All of my previous comments upthread stand.  I like and appreciate JRM as Henry.  Natalie Dormer's acting was absolutely superb.  I don't think as a viewer you really get a full understanding that IRL Henry courted/lusted/obsessed over Anne for SEVEN YEARS.  Even though she had little sympathy for Katherine of Aragon, and wished the Queen and Princess Mary dead, I had empathy towards Anne because her family was absolutely despicable.  Her father was little more than a pimp, very willing to turn either of his daughters over to the highest bidder.  Was George Boleyn really bisexual or was that creative liberties?  And was he really that horrid to his wife?  

I know it was the "entertainment" of the times but it's really distressing to see so many families and children present to watch an execution.  Hearing Brandon's son say he wanted to see someone die was a punch in the gut.  

As wonderful as Henry Cavill was, Brandon was pretty awful at times.  Terrible husband to the King's sister, Margaret (who IRL was actually Mary).  Terrible that he killed women and children, in addition to innocent men because he didn't want to lose the King's love, as he told his wife.  As awful as Cromwell was, it was disgusting to participate in having his executioner get shitfaced the night before so that he would eff up the execution and cause Cromwell to suffer more and die a very painful death.  Honestly, that makes him not much different than Cromwell.  

Not that it mattered much but I preferred the second actress portraying Jane Seymour.  I found the first actress, while good, to come off more sneaky and deceptive versus the second, who seemed more regal and queenly.  Maybe the real Jane Seymour was sneaky and deceptive; after all, she knew full well that Henry was married to Anne when they began their flirtation, at the very least.  And while not as downright dirty and despicable as the Boleyns, the Seymours certainly seemed to have no concerns for Jane's fate at marrying Henry.  

What exactly was the purpose of the Lady Misseldon character in S3?  To show that Henry wasn't faithful to Jane?  Was he faithful to anyone really?  

Still love the Anne of Cleves character and wish we had gotten more with her.  It didn't feel like she was married to Henry for six months or so; it felt more like six days or maybe six weeks.  The show really should have intro'd Katherine Howard then, as she was one of Anne's ladies in waiting, I think.   And add me to the list of people who HATED that the show had Anne and Henry hook up post-annulment.  No.  Just no.  

Katherine Howard still annoys me - although I try to remind myself that she was barely more than a child when she was noticed by Henry.  Some of her behaviors can be written off but others, not so much.  I don't think the real Katherine Howard would have been so brazen in her PDA with Henry.  I also wonder if the real KH was that obvious and indiscreet with Culpepper (and was Culpepper really a rapist and murderer?).  It seems that given who her family was, and what happened to her cousin, she would not have been.  And what did Lady Rochford get out of all this?  The show made it appear as though she and Culpepper were conspiring to trap KH, at least at first.    In the end, it appeared that everyone turned on everyone else - except Derehem, who did tell the truth and suffered the worst death out of them IMO.  Lady Rochford claimed innocence/played dumb, Culpepper claimed it was KH who wanted him and it was all her and KH claimed that Derehem had raped her.  

Oh well, I just ordered a book on KH so I can answer these questions myself.

I know it's been said many times here but I really wish the show had continued on with Mary, Elizabeth and Edward.  There was still so much left to tell - and I would have appreciated seeing Mary planning the funeral for Anne of Cleves, who was the only one of Henry's wives to truly get a funeral for a queen.

 

 

[psychoticstate]

And because I forgot to mention this in my earlier post today, did Henry really think that KH was a virgin when they met?   He claimed to have more animus toward Derehem than Culpepper because Derehem had "ruined" KH before Henry got there.  Based on what the show indicated on their initial meeting(s), no way was KH innocent in the world and Henry wasn't THAT blind.  She was supposed to be a distraction for him during his brief marriage to Anne of Cleves and never queen, I would assume.  

You would think Henry would have had more bitterness and anger toward Culpepper, seeing as Culpepper was sleeping with KH when she was his wife and while he was Henry's groom than Derehem, who had no connection to Henry at all and did not seem to touch KH while she was married.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Hey @psychoticstate!

Haven’t done a rewatch, but the one thing that has me 🙄🙄🙄 so hard at the series finale was the conceit that King Henry was this benevolent father as he lay gasping for breath before he died.

[Spartan Girl]

13 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Hey @psychoticstate!

Haven’t done a rewatch, but the one thing that has me 🙄🙄🙄 so hard at the series finale was the conceit that King Henry was this benevolent father as he lay gasping for breath before he died.

Yes, it was so lame. 
 

 

14 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

You would think Henry would have had more bitterness and anger toward Culpepper, seeing as Culpepper was sleeping with KH when she was his wife and while he was Henry's groom than Derehem, who had no connection to Henry at all and did not seem to touch KH while she was married.  

Never underestimate the stupidity and fragility of the petty male ego.

[psychoticstate]

On 2/24/2025 at 7:46 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Hey @psychoticstate!

Haven’t done a rewatch, but the one thing that has me 🙄🙄🙄 so hard at the series finale was the conceit that King Henry was this benevolent father as he lay gasping for breath before he died.

But of course!  Just like Henry could order the execution of his wives for infidelity while he was cheating all over the place (although that was most definitely the times; apparently the king was expected to take a mistress or two or ten).

On 2/25/2025 at 9:31 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Yes, it was so lame. 
 

 

Never underestimate the stupidity and fragility of the petty male ego.

Clearly!  He definitely had a petty male ego.  

I think it would have behooved the show to have had JRM appear more so as the real Henry did by the time he married KH - around 50, overweight.  It would make more sense why he would choose to marry a flighty child; she certainly inflated his ego.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 2/27/2025 at 6:44 AM, psychoticstate said:

I think it would have behooved the show to have had JRM appear more so as the real Henry did by the time he married KH - around 50, overweight.  It would make more sense why he would choose to marry a flighty child; she certainly inflated his ego.  

And it was JRM who refused to have Henry appear and look the way he historically did at that age. Proving his ego was just as big and inflated.