The Targaryens: Fire & Blood

[Meredith Quill]

Discuss House Targaryen Here!

[Constantinople]

In The Heirs of the Dragon (S1E1), Prince Daemon, Commander of the City Watch, leads his men in a roundup in anticipation of the upcoming tournament.

The action can be broken into two parts.

In the second part, a member of the City Watch identifies a raper, a thief and a murderer, who are then punished. I presume we're supposed to believe the men are in fact guiltyu

But in the first part, the Watch just starts beating the shit out of random, unidentified people. There's no indication they've done anything except get on the wrong end of a nightstick.

I mentioned this in the episode thread but I wanted it to go down on Daemon's permanent record.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Constantinople

[Meredith Quill]

I read somewhere since the episode but I forget where (I read a ton of stuffs), that the city watch men were recruited from amongst the small folk, likely from Flea Bottom et al (seems logical enough). Therefore, it's not a leap to believe that there'd be an extremely high likelihood that they would know who the criminals were and where they generally hung out/congregated. A la "*Much of the city is considered lawless and terrifying".

So it isn't difficult to deduce that the area the city watch 'raided' was a known haunt of criminals of every ilk and if you were in that area, you were no innocent bystander (*much like how some areas in various countries/cities are considered dangerous etc etc). Now, whether it was within Daemon's purview to mete out such brutal 'justice' (what was medieval justice anyway?) is a different matter, my point is, that these weren't ordinary, law-abiding folks.

Just for the record.

[magdalene]

These were all known murderers, rapists and thiefs. I read that in some back ground material. I will look for it. Yes, in a democracy they should have had trials, blah, blah, blah. This isn't a democracy. And castrating violent rapists - shrugs callously.

[Lady S.]

I just watched the premiere for the 3rd time and when they march out and divide, there's a whole crowd of people right there being marched past and ignored. When the chopping's done and the sequence ends there's again a crowd of people looking on, with all their limbs intact. And the lack of variety is what really what makes it feel not random. From what we saw it was mostly theivery accusations, with one castration for rape, and one beheading for murder, which feels like a realistic crime rate. If they were just acting for funsies, I'd expect much more mixing it up.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

5 hours ago, magdalene said:

These were all known murderers, rapists and thiefs. I read that in some back ground material. I will look for it.

No, they weren't all known. And it doesn't matter what the background material says. What matters is what's on screen.

In the second part of the scene, they identified people by their alleged crimes.

In the first part of the scene they just wailed on whoever couldn't get out of their way.

Quote

Yes, in a democracy they should have had trials, blah, blah, blah. This isn't a democracy.

The idea of trials long predates what we would consider a democracy.

In any case, the King and the Hand told Daemon to tone it down. It sounded as if the Master of Laws wasn't thrilled with it either but Otto interrupted him.

Quote

And castrating violent rapists - shrugs callously.

11 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I read somewhere since the episode but I forget where (I read a ton of stuffs), that the city watch men were recruited from amongst the small folk, likely from Flea Bottom et al (seems logical enough). Therefore, it's not a leap to believe that there'd be an extremely high likelihood that they would know who the criminals were and where they generally hung out/congregated. A la "*Much of the city is considered lawless and terrifying".

It's also not a leap to suggest that that if they know the criminal element so well it's because they're criminals themselves and they're settling old scores rather than just enforcing the law.

[Constantinople]

With his false flag of surrender, Daemon, a.k.a Ramsay Bolton, has now added war criminal to his list of accomplishments on his permanent record.

[Meredith Quill]

Ramsay Bolton, hardly lol, that's really s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g the narrative.

[Lady S.]

I'd more readily compare it to Dany roasting the slavers after saying she'd sell them Drogon. Daemon cutting the Crabfeeder in half is still a better death than Ramsay flaying all those ironmen to death or the Crabfeeder's own method of killing enemies.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

I'd more readily compare it to Dany roasting the slavers after saying she'd sell them Drogon. Daemon cutting the Crabfeeder in half is still a better death than Ramsay flaying all those ironmen to death or the Crabfeeder's own method of killing enemies.

• Daemon : doesn't honor a surrender
• Ramsay :  doesn't honor a surrender
• Dany : No surrender is involved

One of these things is not like the other

[Meredith Quill]

• Dany kills her enemies with dragonfire
• Daemon kills his enemies with dragonfire
• Ramsay kills his enemies with dogs

One of these things is not like the other.

[magdalene]

8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

With his false flag of surrender, Daemon, a.k.a Ramsay Bolton, has now added war criminal to his list of accomplishments on his permanent record.

You are such a comedian....

[Lady S.]

I doubt any of us would say Daemon is a good man or that his word could be trusted but I'd say the differences between him and Ramsay kinda do matter when Daemon's detractors imply he'd kill his own brother to improve his position, something only the likes of Ramsay and Euron did in the main series.

[Meredith Quill]

12 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I doubt any of us would say Daemon is a good man or that his word could be trusted but I'd say the differences between him and Ramsay kinda do matter when Daemon's detractors imply he'd kill his own brother to improve his position, something only the likes of Ramsay and Euron did in the main series.

Ramsay - murdered his baby brother and father - kin slayer.

Euron - murdered his brother, also had murderous intentions for his niece and nephew - kin slayer.

And lest we forget lobster boy, Stannis - who not only murdered his brother but ultimately was so self-righteous that he murdered his young daughter too, for the same reason - kin slayer.

Daemon - won't allow shit-talking of his brother by anyone who isn't him. Didn't murder his niece when offered the chance.

One of these things is not like the other.

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

(Don't forget lobster boy - Stannis).

I don't see Daemon burning his own kid to death either. Other people's kids, sure, but a man's got to have limits.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

I doubt any of us would say Daemon is a good man or that his word could be trusted but I'd say the differences between him and Ramsay kinda do matter when Daemon's detractors imply he'd kill his own brother to improve his position, something only the likes of Ramsay and Euron did in the main series.

I never said Daemon would kill Viserys, although Viserys would be under less stress, and thus possibly healthier, if Daemon weren't such an asshole.

But both Daemon and Ramsay engage in a fraudulent surrender. That's undeniable. That should concern those who think Daemon is so wonderful.

[Meredith Quill]

44 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I never said Daemon would kill Viserys, although Viserys would be under less stress, and thus possibly healthier, if Daemon weren't such an asshole.

But both Daemon and Ramsay engage in a fraudulent surrender. That's undeniable. That should concern those who think Daemon is so wonderful.

I think the notion that one action in common = two people are cut from the same cloth is deeply fallacious.

Speaking for myself, I have never ever said I think Daemon is wonderful, the idea of that actually made me chuckle. He's an asshole a lot of the time, maybe even most of the time. However, combined with his loyalty and love for his family, many of his flaws make him a super interesting, compelling, and generally for me, a sympathetic character. 

[Lady S.]

Apparently the castle wall pornography includes dragons in the orgies, which lends credence to the theory that Valryian dragon magic involved actual draconic fucking to create that blood of the dragon power.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

Apparently the castle wall pornography includes dragons in the orgies, which lends credence to the theory that Valryian dragon magic involved actual draconic fucking to create that blood of the dragon power.

It doesn’t seem safe. 

[jeansheridan]

I am weirdly taken with teen and adult Aemond despite his horrific wig. I hope that improves in season 2. 

[Ambrosefolly]

One thing that I like about the show: I think that people for the most part look related. I remember when Ewan Mitchell's pictures of Aemond was first posted, and I thought they were Matt Smith. Ewan, Paddy (Viserys I) and Matt (Damon) have a similar long face shape. Emma D'Arcy looks a ton like Sian Brookes (Queen Aemma Aryn, Rhanerya's mother). Even Tom Glynn-Carney looks like a slightly more masculine version of Olivia Cooke (sans coloring) and Elliot Grihault(Luc) has similar facial features to Milly Alcock.

On 10/17/2022 at 1:17 AM, jeansheridan said:

I am weirdly taken with teen and adult Aemond despite his horrific wig. I hope that improves in season 2. 

I know the implication is that Aemond is somewhat of a mirror to his Uncle Dameon (the second son that desperately wants to be king), but to me he is the younger, anime version of Stannis Baratheon (another second son that wants to be king): a highly trained and obsessive guy that deeply resents his drunken, lecherous older brother that gets everything handed to him (ignoring his own privilege in the meantime), who occasionally lets his baser instincts get the best of him.

[aghst]

They set up Aemond and Aegon as the big villains.

Do they live up to Joffrey or Cersei?

Or maybe GoT fans were just more in on Team Stark than they will ever be as invested in Team Black vs. Team Green.

 

 

[proserpina65]

17 minutes ago, aghst said:

They set up Aemond and Aegon as the big villains.

Do they live up to Joffrey or Cersei?

Or maybe GoT fans were just more in on Team Stark than they will ever be as invested in Team Black vs. Team Green.

 

 

I don't think there really are any pure villains in House of the Dragon and very few pure innocent victims either.  Almost everyone, Aegon and Aemond included, are varying degrees of gray.

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

They set up Aemond and Aegon as the big villains.

Do they live up to Joffrey or Cersei?

Or maybe GoT fans were just more in on Team Stark than they will ever be as invested in Team Black vs. Team Green.

More like Aegon and Aemond are going to be the big decision makers for Team Green and they're the clearest parallel to Rhaenyra and Daemon (especially Aemond and Daemon).  Otto can make his plots and Alicent can wring her hands about everything spiraling out of control, but those two are going to want to take the reins.  Based on the promos and interviews Aegon isn't being setup as a passive Tommen type who will let stronger personalities manipulate him.

[magdalene]

Otto and Criston have the dubious honor that I want them to die first.

I would say that Larys is not only vile but extremely dangerous and damaging so I'll bet he won't die anytime soon.

[magdalene]

On 6/10/2024 at 2:15 PM, baldryanr said:

They set up Aemond and Aegon as the big villains.

I am team Black but I would agree that Aegon and Aemond are not villains in the GOT sense. They are both the product of terrible parenting by both parents.  Aegon's actor has been getting rave reviews for his performance this season and I am very curious to see Aegon in action.