hogwash

Despite my general annoyance with a good chunk of s02, I think the show did a pretty good job with Oliver/Felicity's relationship. It was a relatively effective combination of developing/building the relationship and using the relationship as a vehicle for building/developing the individual characters. I'm not gonna try to guess when Oliver/Felicity fell in love with each other (I've tried. I honestly haven't no clue). But I can appreciate that s02 did a good job of setting up that both characters are in love and interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with each other. Whereas before the s02 finale, I kinda understood that they were both (probably...maybe) interested but hesitant to voice/commit to said interest (probably...maybe). Felicity kinda tiptoed around it when Oliver apologized in 2x10 ("Does this mean I have a shot.......at employee-of-the-month?" Real subtle, Felicity). But she doesn't push it other than that because it's unthinkable to her. Which makes sense because Oliver is cagey as hell about it. Plus she still kinda sees herself as his employee/subordinate, which fits with her interactions with other "important people" (Moira/Walter/Laurel/OIiver before the Undertaking). Even in s02 when she interacts with Moira/Walter/Laurel, she's very aware of the boundaries and tries (failing at times because of her social quirks) to be very appropriate and somewhat deferential with them. It's not that she's insecure or thinks these people are out of her league or better. It's just her default. Obviously, she's not like that with Oliver because she gets to know him and regularly interacts with him after joining Team Arrow. But, that underlying default still colors some of their interactions (2x10, 2x12, 2x14) when she's unsure of her place or how she should react. Plus, as the Arrow, Oliver's even more *in charge* than he was as the boss's stepson/attractive weirdo who had her doing research under flimsy premises. With Oliver, it's clear that he already knew by 2x06 that he was interested, but realized that (1)he wasn't in a position (mentally, etc.) and (2)it would be disastrous and monumentally stupid to go for it. State v. Queen makes him realize that he's a lot deeper than interested, which (rightfully) freaks him out. Then he's really different with Felicity in the next couple of episodes (these are the episodes people usually say are Olicity pandering) before the Sara lunge. He basically struggles to figure out how to compartmentalize his feelings enough to find the right "box" to put her in. This partly why he tells her she's his partner in 2x10. She's definitely a part of Team Arrow and one of the "only two that matter", but his partner? Like Diggle (and eventually Sara)? Not at all by that point in the season. He's not consciously/mostly lying when he says it, but he does say and use it as a way of keeping his feelings in check. Over the course of s02, both characters work out their feelings in their respective corners until they become comfortable enough with themselves/those feelings to meet each other halfway and accept the idea of being together as something real. Looking at s02 as a whole, it's kinda amazing how many of the Oliver/Felicity moments were basically threads that would later be used to defeat Slade and set off a new chapter in the characters' relationship (plus, I'll admit, some good old-fashioned shipper pandering). It all tied in: 2x01, 2x06, 2x07, 2x10, 2x13, 2x14 (if you squint). Then the finale was about both of them fully realizing their 2x10 exchange with Oliver actually putting his money where his mouth is and Felicity actually moving past her *underling* mentality to see herself as partner/equal. It all worked very well in my view and built nicely on their relationship in s01. Hopefully, it will continue in s03 *fingers crossed*. EDIT: With 2x14, it's less about squinting and more about understanding what the show was trying to do and accepting that it failed miserably...I freaking hate that episode.

Deathstroke/Mirakuru was probably the biggest thing that s02 mismanaged. Even though I know next to nothing about the comics, I knew that Slade Wilson = Deathstroke; Deathstroke = BIG BADDIE!! So, I was excited to see how the show would handle Oliver/Slade's eventual falling out. Oliver was an earnest idiot and it seemed impossible that he would do anything that would result Deathstroke coming after him. Plus, Slade Wilson seemed like a very honorable man so why would he possibly become someone like Deathstroke? Billy Wintergreen arc made me assume the show had a good handle on it. Poor Shado, though. I was pretty livid when she got fridged but I was still optimistic that the show wouldn't be dumb enough to completely erase the character and reduce her death to a catalyst for other characters... I just kept waiting for the show to expand further on the whole thing and they just never bothered. They just kept it as *Slade is super bummed about Shado dying and blames Oliver* and never tried to go beyond the surface of that even though they had 10+ episodes and an island-centric episode beyond Slade's ep9 reveal to do so. It was a faulty premise and there was not much that could have been done to salvage it, but if Slade was the only one (in his Mirakuru-rage) who believed it then maybe could have worked. But that's not what happened. Instead, everyone and their mother kept insisting that Oliver chose Sara over Shado and that it was Oliver's fault that Shado died and it was bad and the writers/showrunners should feel bad. I remember even Ivo blamed Oliver for it and I just sat there thinking what the FUCK? Even the guy who actually killed Shado is getting in on this?! I understand that the show is about Oliver and that they wanted something more Oliver-centric than the Undertaking, but they shouldn't have doubled down on THAT motivation. Every episode just made the whole thing seem dumber and dumber and unfortunately that bleed onto Slade/Deathstroke. To the point where not even Manu could make it work. Then they dropped the mastermind/chess master aspect of the character from the first half of the season and...yeah. Poor Island!Shado/Slade/Oliver. Their amazing island relationship deserved better than that.

Diggle could have been the one to say it but Oliver just seemed to want to go, do what he needed to do, and damn the consequences. I couldn't see Dig agreeing to that even though he's seen Oliver do just it time and time again (and nearly die in the process). Sara wouldn't have worked either. She's had very similar experiences (I'm assuming the LOA is roughly equivalent to whatever the hell Oliver went through), but she doesn't seem to know well enough to know when Oliver is done being kept in check. After she popped back in Starling City, I would have pegged her as the character in the show who knew Oliver best since she's familiar with the pre-island/Island/Arrow Oliver. But the timeline we got in s02 doesn't really support that. They couldn't have spent more than three weeks(?) together on the island/freighter/whatever before she drowned again. At that point, they were both only on the 2nd year of their "hellish journey" and Oliver was nowhere close to the s01 psycho vigilante or s02 "something else" he was/is in Starling City. So who's left? Felicity. She's tried to stop him before when it comes to these things. She's seen Diggle try to talk sense into him too. It usually doesn't work when he's like that. Sara hasn't been around long enough to know that side of Oliver. Diggle still tries to talk it out and can be just as stubborn as Oliver. Even if it was partly for shipping reasons, it does fit that Felicity--even by virtue of being the non ass-kicking person in the room--would be the one to say go for it, who are we to stop you? They're a weirdly fatalistic pair (I guess it goes with the territory but it's still kind of weird...)

I definitely don't think Oliver is ready for a relationship with Felicity either but they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the finale. He told her loved her and he acknowledged that he was her partner by letting her be a big part of the take down Slade plan. So, with one fell swoop in the finale, they kinda destroyed both those barriers to the Felicity/Oliver thing. So, they kinda have to move forward with the relationship, but not since Oliver is in no position for it mentally (even though he wants it to happen). It could be interesting to see how the show handles/stalls it. A similar thing happened by ep11 of s02. All the romantic beats were there to the point were it was both too fast for them to be together but also a little weird that neither of them said screw it and just went for it ("Maybe he's dreaming about you" was definitely my big *wait, they're actually going for this?!* moment). But then the show just threw Sara/Oliver (grumble grumble) and *we can't be together because danger* to slow it down. Plus, despite the somewhat intense and steady build-up, they had plausible deniability when it came to Oliver's feelings (which they used to their advantage with the Oliver being jealous over Barry/Felicity thing) and the unequal relationship between Felicity/Oliver to stall the relationship. With all that (mostly) gone, I think they'll go for Oliver's tortured past/PTSD to stall them at this time. I would love it if that's what they did cause I like when they explore how his guilt/self-loathing/trauma/etc. from past experiences color and affect his present life in Starling City way more than when they kill characters in Starling City to get the same development. Radioactive was a very bizarre choice. Panning down to Tommy watching them from across the street was even more bizarre. Laurel/Oliver full of weird choices on the part of the showrunners. It's like they couldn't help themselves (or they were actively sabotaging it by that point--a dead best friend/ex-boyfriend on top of cheating with a "dead" sister are strange things to put on the hero's main romantic relationship). The spoilers we've been getting and the weirdness of Tommy/Laurel/Oliver at the end of s01 reminds of a couple of people saying that the show trying to go for their original s02 plan for Laurel/Oliver with Felicity instead. I think I'm buying that theory a little more now... (Yay! I figured out how to properly quote!)

This does seem very likely...plus Oliver is dumb enough to think it will work and not just end with him (and Roy if he gets to stay) dead. Diggle being a new father is a good catalyst for Oliver pushing him away, but don't think *danger is out there* would work for pushing Felicity away or kicking her off the team after he served her up to Slade (yay, partners!). It could work if it's something else though. I'm not sure what...

That's definitely what I meant about the show having weird ideas about how playboys typically act. They tend to make him weirdly intense and focused when they put him these romantic relationships (i.e. wanting to move off to Coast City with McKenna after a couple of months of dating, sleeping with Laurel after telling Tommy to go for it, pretty much EVERYTHING that happened with Helena, etc.). I checked the wikia (it's adorable that the show actually has one!) and it says Sara/Oliver are sleeping in the clocktower, then he has a weird Sara/Shado nightmare and gets up to look out a window (there's no windows in the foundry). But it could have still been screwed up in ep 13. Honestly the hookup would have been fine (though really really really stupid) if they let Sara/Laurel have an actual conversation at some point outside of Oliver before being all hunky dory with each other (though no relationship advice under any circumstances). Instead, Oliver goes after her (after she storms out of her own apartment) and gives that very ugh speech which only served to torpedo Lauliver/Lauriver(?), which was already dead as soon as the lunge happened. I would have rather seen Laurel/Sara screaming at each other (boy, did they have plenty to yell and scream about) but outside of the exploding glass that didn't happened. Laurel just asked for Sara's forgiveness, which Sara didn't reciprocate, all while implying that Oliver's ugh hallway speech was the catalyst for this turn around. It was all a big pile of no for me. I'm hoping that now that that whole thing is hopefully over (please please, on all that's good in the world, be over!!!) that they can do something with Laurel/Sara without having Oliver right dab in the middle. EDIT: I'm sorry that I keep talking/harping about this. I'm still a little annoyed about not getting the Laurel/Sara reunion I wanted . But I promise I'm mostly done.

They're presumably gonna get together (I know nothing about comic books, but ), so I'm a little annoyed that they already made it hard for them by friendzoning him, brotherzoning(?) him, and . I like her but I don't understand why they would put so many complicated barriers to them getting together if they already know it will/needs to happen. I hope they drop most of those barriers fast (like, by the end of the season or earlier fast) and that she learns he's the Flash even faster (the bane of superhero shows/movies everywhere: the perpetually oblivious love interest. Please don't do it, show!).

Really? This is what I get for skipping through episodes. I thought she and Oliver were sleeping there in the beginning of the Suicide Squad(?) episode. I guess it could been trashed and fixed up by then....( I definitely think that Oliver/Sara cared about each other. I could even fanwank that there was some romantic undercurrents in their earlier s02 interactions, but I don't think them starting a relationship made any sense beyond basic comfort sex. You know, with the conversations about moving in together, and the kissing each other before going off vigilanteing. I could see Oliver wanting one (it's pretty par for the course for him; this show has very weird ideas about how playboys are supposed to act) but with Sara there wasn't much indication that she wanted one. She didn't tell him she was in Starling City. She was only interested in stalking Laurel. She only came back to Starling City because Oliver told her Laurel was in trouble/spiraling. So, I was hopeful that that would mean Laurel/Sara instead of more sister-swapping triangle from HELL. I guess the show figured it was such a great idea that it was worth revisiting...Yay.

I'll admit to being unhappy with the Sara/Oliver hookup. Mostly because I saw my hopes of a really good Laurel/Sara reunion floating away like dust in the ether the moment they decide to plop Oliver right back in the middle of their relationship. Whether you're OK with the hookup or not, that's pretty much what the show did. There was absolutely no way it wouldn't be a source of conflict between Sara/Laurel. To have it happen before they even bothered to let Laurel/Sara have an actual conversation or any "airing of grievances" told me that I wasn't gonna get anything good out of the Laurel/Sara thing (side note: Laurel giving Sara dating advice for her relationship with Oliver?! Really?! Why?? In what freaking universe would you ever put that in a script, let alone in the actual show?!). Mama Lance thinks Sara is still alive (along with the Laurel as Thea's mentor thing) was the only halfway competent/decent arc Laurel got in s01. So, I was somewhat excited to see how the show would handle Sara/Laurel interactions. They created the sister-swapping fiasco, so inevitably they had to deal with the fallout when Sara returned. If done right, it might have been good (and bonus points, the start of a good arc for Laurel who desperately needed one by that point in s02). Instead, the lunge happened and it was over before it even started. Then those awkward Lance dinner with Oliver stills were released and it was really really over. Oh well. It's been awhile since it happened so I've read tons of justifications and meta about it but I'm still annoyed by it. I would have been more OK with it if it had been just comfort sex like so many people argued, but it seemed like the show had them in a meaningful relationship with real feelings that had no basis or buildup in Sara's interactions with Oliver earlier in the season, the flashbacks we were shown, or the backstory we got in s01 (Oliver deciding to torpedo his relationship with Laurel by sleeping with her sister because he was a spineless butthole who couldn't handle anything serious). Having Sara go back to the Arrow Cave specifically instead of her Watchtower was either plot contrivance to get the Black Canary/Green Arrow hookup or she was looking for Oliver (probably, the former....) Either way, it was a really bad start to the Lance family drama that could have been good but only managed to get worse.

I don't think they could come up with anything better "uh, it was just a flesh wound/Lazarus Pit made it better." I do want the other parts of Malcolm's story. Maybe he'll tell it to Thea as part of her "join to the dark side" training. I don't want want more Lazarus Pit stuff though cause it feels too much Mirakuru (which I hated. It sucked). They both have too much power and I could see the show not trying to fit within the universe halfway through and just let it do whatever they or the plot needs it to do (similar to Mirakuru). Are we really getting Thea flashbacks?! I hope they include lots of Moira and archery. Maybe a little Malcolm Merlyn being a loony weirdo. The latest casting news we've gotten seems interesting but I remember how I excited I was to see how the show would use Summer Glau.....Anyway, I'm trying not to get too excited about s03 cause my residual bitterness from how absolutely lazy s02 handled Blood, Moira, Shado, Slade, Isabel, Roy (the biggest one! They actually KNEW he was coming back!), Mirakuru, etc. I could forgive Blood/Isabel (not Deathstroke cause if you name the dude Slade Wilson in s01, you should have a better plan for the whole Deathstroke thing than that). But it was just too many dropped and barely explored threads. But I'm in if Thea/Willa Holland (along with Felicity/Diggle) gets something good with great payoff.

It's mostly for personal reasons (I do actually like Roy even though he's a complete moron and his superhero arc left a lot to be desired). But if the inevitable Dark Archer+sidekick vs. Arrow+sidekick showdown, I want Thea to mop the floor with him. Cause (1) It would be hilarious and (2) it works within the story. Thea is getting better/superior training from Merlyn (we'll pretend that the whatever Roy got in s02 counts as training) and she actually has prior experience with archery = Kick his butt, Thea! The show seems fond of vengeful former lovers/exes going after our loyal heroes so I wouldn't be surprised if Thea fights Roy. I just really really want her to win. Thea has been one of the more consistently written characters in the show (even if you absolutely hate her), so with that + how she reacted to Merlyn's lunacy, I'm pretty optimistic they won't have her eager to or even interested in following Merlyn's footsteps. They made it a point to show that Thea went off with Merlyn for her own personal reasons as a personal choice after a entire season of being kept in the dark and having no agency. I'm happy she go to choose her own path/destiny and I'm assuming she'll be back on the "good guys" side by the end of her arc. I just hope that (1)Thea as mini-Dark Archer doesn't happen and (2)Thea as absolute psycho a la Nyssa/Helena/Roy doesn't happen. What ever skills or mentality she comes back with, I just don't want her to go too far in a way that makes her irredeemable or doesn't fit/ignores her characterization. So as long as she doesn't murder a bunch of federal agents or threaten to kill Oliver/Roy/Roy's mom/whoever, I'm good. Basically, whatever she does under Malcolm's "helpful" tutelage needs to be something she can come back from. How Helena/Nyssa/Roy were handled means there's definitely room for error but the show handled Sara/Oliver's...excesses relatively well (...if you ignore Sara's skipping away to join LOA). So, fingers crossed? Prayer circle for no mini-Dark Archer!Thea.

This should probably go in Moira's thread but I went off on a couple of weird, bitter tangents. So I rewatched ep12 of s01 to see if I wasn't remembering the buildup to the Moira/Felicity’s s02 confrontation right (then I ended up finishing the season cause wow did they hit a stride after Felicity formally joined Team Arrow that s02 couldn't touch...grumble grumble). When ep13 aired it confused me that people were angry at Felicity for confronting Moira about Thea's paternity because I got into the show after the Flash episodes so the whole MOIRA QUEEN IS EVUL!1!! (and should NEVER be trusted!!!11!!) thing was still fresh in my mind. Felicity is amazingly brave for having the nerve to confront her alone because s01 Moira was more terrifying than I remembered…utterly terrifying. They did a really good job of neutering her in s02, but those s01 episodes don’t lie. It's weird the show mostly glossed over how she was actively responsible for the Undertaking. She should be serving multiple life sentences (thanks a lot, Malcolm!!). The city should have been after her head. Especially considering that she was presumably the last(?) living conspirator. I still don't understand why they did that? Maybe the show figured since she was gonna die anyway anything they did with her beforehand didn't need to make sense...? (An ongoing theme in s02...grumble grumble). But, it honestly makes the Blood subplot seem even lazier than it already was. With how negative campaigns can be, it should have been WAY easier for Blood after Moira was acquitted. Sorry if no one cares, but it's just that rewatching the back half of s01 made me realize that her getting off was a bigger WTF than the whole mayor thing (two things that no one seriously questioned or looked into. Not even when she got off on the CONSPIRACY CHARGES?!) Blood's campaign should have had a field day with that. Rich white woman who used her money to avoid consequences for her actions after destroying the corrupt city she helped build vs poor Latino orphan who wants to to rebuild the corrupt city he loves after “overcoming adversity”. Modern-day American oligarch vs the man of the people. It practically writes itself! With Malcolm being dead (presumably), it should have been easier for Blood to get people at Moira's throat. He could have had the city frothing at the mouth (like they were in the beginning after Diggle/Felicity dragged Oliver back to the city). Anyway back to my original point (kinda, sorta), it would have been weird for Felicity to have nothing to say after learning Thea's paternity. She knew firsthand what Moira was capable of (poor Walter. MOIRA QUEEN IS EVUL!1!!). It was also very uncharacteristic of Dig to say so little about Thea's paternity, Moira's acquittal/mayoral campaign. In s01, most of his biggest conflicts with Oliver were over Laurel and Moira. Dig should have been a bigger cheerleader for Blood over Moira. It could have been something interesting after they found out who Blood really was and helped Dig get over some of his Moira/Laurel prejudices. I don't get why they dropped that? It would have at least given him something to do? Even Oliver being friends with him was also barely fleshed out. Honestly, my annoyance with so many of the back half episodes is that since the show knew that we would have to sit through Lance family drama, DCU pandering, and Moira-related stupidity to set up the finale the least they could have done was make it interesting. Or put some thought into it...

I wasn't completely sold on the Malcolm/Thea thing either (and I'm still not completely gungho about it...), but their interactions during the finale made me hopeful. It's actually his response to her shooting him that got me really interested in what the show could do with them sailing off together. It was absolute laugh-out-loud moment for me. His daughter SHOOTS him and he's BEAMING (like the proud papa/lunatic he is). The whole "You actually shot me!!1! Unlike that wimpy loser half-brother of yours!!1! Join me, rightful heir!!" was a highlight of the finale for me. I'm hoping they keep that dynamic rather than have Thea buy into his lunacy or be brainwashed by him. Thea has consistently been VERY headstrong, principled, and assertive. The show has never backed away from that (despite it turning a lot of people off her character). I mean, she's the only one in the show that really seemed to remember that all the parental figures in her life (save Walter) did absolutely horrific things and had blood on their hands (you don't how happy it made me when she said she's the daughter of two mass murderers. Poor Thea, but I was so excited someone actually remembered!). I'm game for watching Malcolm trying to create the mini-Dark Archer in Thea and failing at every turn. The loony, self-serving megalomaniac and the wary, mulish brat could work beautifully. Her going off with Malcolm was clunky but no clunkier than other things that happened in the back half of s02. They did a pretty good job of showing that Oliver (through his own stupidity and single-minded focus) was lost to her. Then she finds out Roy is also a lying liar who lies (gasp!). It fits that she would turn to her "only" other available option: someone who's absolutely batshit but who she knows exactly is what he seems. Plus, Malcolm doesn't seem dumb (or sane) enough to lie to her and is very eager to have a protege/successor so they can avoid the typical "Thea the brat" drama the show seemed SO SO SO enamored with. My other big hope is that they don't gloss over Thea learning the whole Oliver/Arrow thing. Laurel learning was a total wash. Don't screw this one up for me, show!!! I need to her to be completely livid in all her majestic "Thea the brat" glory. They can skip over her finding out but I better get my confrontation. I would also like to see her beat up Roy...for reasons that absolutely make complete sense. I'm just happy they didn't make her paternity about Oliver (unlike what the show did with another daughter's long-awaited reunion with her family...) Bring on the training montages!