AuntieMame

Another thing we don’t like to talk about? Reaction to being abused often splits based on sex role socialization with men identifying with power and the abuser and becoming abusers themselves and women identifying with the victim and slotting into the role of the abused. Worse, we all tie ourselves in knots making excuses for the abusers. I’m with you in hitting a baby not to mention your own baby. There is no excuse.

Oh yes, I’ve heard that phrase. I agree with that phrase. Speaking of thorny, multifactorial issues the combination of oppression and control and male privilege when applied to American black men, especially descendants of slavery is another one of those things people don’t want to talk about. Just for the record, white women aren’t protected prizes to be cherished except when it is a tactic to keep other people in their place. Not in terms of lived experience. In lived experience we’re expected to be Stepford Bangmaids and objects. I do see what it looks like from the perspective of woc and it makes me so sad because it keeps women divided and conflicted about where their loyalties are supposed to be and we are ALL expected to give loyalty and service to “our” men. My personal loyalties are always with other women but even for me that creates conflict with my female socialization. I’m glad we’re talking about this too because it needs to be talked about but our history in this country is so close, barely out of living memory as you point out. Nor do I think things have changed as much as we would all like to believe. Otherwise we wouldn’t need the authoritarian newspeak to enforce it. As for Derrick living off of Keyshawn’s work and talent, this is such a common pattern with men even though men still own 99% of the planet’s land and own and control 97% of everything else worth owning and controlling and men still harvest women for everything they can get. That race is an additional factor with Derrick and Keyshawn (who is in an exploitative industry of the global sex trade) just adds another layer of awful.

I want to rewatch the episode before I comment on everything but Keyshawn broke my heart. The portrayal of an abuse victim snapping at the worst possible time and looking like the problematic person in the relationship is actually a common pattern and one that I’ve never seen acknowledged or dramatized before. This happened with Gabby Petitio during the domestic call that could have saved her life except that the cops dismissed her as crazy because the abuse had traumatized and destabilized her. This happens all of the time. The abused person is at the end of their rope because of the abuse and looks unhinged to outsiders observing for the first time. Add in the misogyny and racism and male privilege and this is what you get. Kudos to Katori for shining light on this. As for Derrick, I wanted to punch him myself for that nasty, smug little half smile as his manipulation played out perfectly. He even got to witness it. Victims of domestic violence and narcissistic gaslighting often agonize about whether their abuser understands what they’re doing or if it is some kind of emotional accident and the damage they’re inflicting is an unfortunate byproduct of their own hurt and pain. The victims tie themselves in knots to avoid hurting or being unjust to the one who is hurting them. Keyshawn no doubt made many excuses for Derrick because of his abusive and dysfunctional background. We saw that in the fairytale episode, at least it was heavily implied. I have some niggling complaints about the way Hall portrays some of the other hot button issues but her portrait of an abusive relationship has been on the money. As for Derrick, he doesn’t want a fresh start, he wants to exercise his power and entitlements on those who can’t fight back. In addition to his many other lovely qualities, he is a coward. l’m a little blown away but not surprised that WOC think that a white man will treat them better. I guess it is the flip side of the au courant implication that men of color would be more just if only they were in charge of society because of their experience of oppression. I think it would be the ultimate case of meet the new boss. Men are men no matter what their race, ethnicity or sexual orientation. Look at Nigeria and the DRC; horrifically violent rape (that often requires surgery to repair the damage) is such a problem that women are hitting the streets for reasons other than protecting their children. Get gang raped in India and then get murdered or acid thrown in your face for daring to complain about it. South Korea has one of the most vibrant radical feminist movements on the planet currently because universal sexual harassment and even worse than standard de facto slavery via marriage is normative. Men of color are lower in the hierarchy than white men but white men keep them there partially with the implicit agreement that they’re still above women and that women are still less than human objects of service. One of the interesting things about this show in terms of deep analysis is the conflict in Hall as a writer between feminism and antiracism. African American women are often expected to put the needs of racism and African American men ahead of their own needs as women. This show is so brilliant and interesting in so many ways. Propitiate the new gods of media that we get a Season 3.

I’m a city girl transplanted to a semi-rural town in the West and I see the effects of lack of opportunity and ack of good education. Even those who try and go to college are often hampered by the fact that they weren’t properly prepared to do university level work by their high school. Nor is it automatically assumed or expected that kids will even graduate from high school. This blows my mind. We weren’t wealthy by any means and I worked in high school but it was absolutely expected that I would graduate. Living around here has been an education for me in just how people get behind and sometimes never get caught up again. PS - Thank you for the thanks about the sex trade education. I hope I wasn’t too impassioned. Its just an epidemic we are mostly blind to because it has been so normalized. I consider stripping as sex work too and marginally safer but not every club has an Uncle Clifford. The cam girls aren’t as safe as we think. Customers try and find out who they are and it’s my understanding that to make any real money you have to be willing to do more extreme things and accept verbal abuse as part of the service provided. I know that would affect me over time. So yes, wits about you to keep yourself safe and get in and out with the money you need would be ideal but isn’t the reality for most women in sex work, not just emotionally or situationally but because most have a manager/pimp/trafficker, brothel or booker taking a high percentage cut of their earnings. I had to learn about this too. I didn’t know it either. When I was younger I had a couple friends who tried dancing or escorting for survival and tuition and it definitely affected them negatively. Plus there are a ton of drugs in the strip clubs. Even the nice ones.

Derek was manipulating Keyshawn with the self abuse. He was trying to make Keyshawn feel sorry for him, forget her anger and stay. He knows the cycle hasn’t reset for Keyshawn after the last round of physical abuse and more physical abuse won’t accomplish the reset. So Derek is trying to make Keyshawn feel sympathy. This gets thorny because Derek is a victim as well as an abuser so the facets of fucked up are like a disco ball and just as confusing to the senses. IRL, this is a very early tell with manipulative abusers. One of the first things they do is try and make their target feel sorry for them with a hard luck story. Its a good rule of thumb to be skeptical of anyone who leads with a bid for sympathy. The difficulty is that sometimes you meet people who really are in a rough patch but otherwise are good people. Discernment is difficult and vital. Prostitutes are often, I would go so far as to say usually, high when they are working. They’re high so they can dissociate from the horror that is the “job”. The current propaganda that the global sexual exploitation of women in the global sex trade is anything other than the modern slave trade is naive. 96% of women in prostitution would escape it if they could. Over 80% are literally trafficked or forced in and the others are forced by circumstances. Of course they’re high and if they weren’t to begin with they are often encouraged in a habit so they can be easily controlled or choose it themselves to dull the pain. Prostitution isn’t some fairyland for women who “just love sex”; it is sex on demand for any man who can pay. Imagine going into your local diner on Sunday morning, the kind of place that has a wide representation of people. Now imagine having sexual contact with every man in the place. Every man: the old and young, fat, thin and in between, those with hygiene so bad a skunk would blush, those with anger issues and sexual perversions you don’t share, those who want to degrade and dominate as part of the service to mitigate the fact that they are buying what should be given, those who want not just the physical service but to believe that you like them so emotional labor too, all while you run the risk of being hurt in various ways all the way up to murder. This is what prostitution is. Yes prostitutes are usually high and there is no way to make prostitution an OSHA compliant job because it is inherently dangerous. This is what prostitution is: sex with men you don’t want to have sex with. Imagine getting down on your knees to suck a dirty dick half a dozen times in a day. Now ask yourself why men have the “right” to buy women’s bodies. Ask why their desire for “sex” trumps women’s right to basic safety and dignity. Men are the overwhelming customers in the global sex trade and women are the overwhelming people providing their bodies. Male prostitutes are less than ten percent of the total and they are bought by men. Female customers are such a tiny fraction that they are insignificant statistically. All of my numbers can be confirmed by googling Nordic Model Now and going to their website. This issue and the show. I hate Roulette more than a little for using their friendship to push Whisper into something she really didn’t want to do. Surprise, surprise, the John got violent when his ego wasn’t stroked along with his sex. He was angry when his fantasy of Whisper being there voluntarily and enjoying his ministrations was dead on arrival. For that matter Roulette didn’t seem to “enjoy” the blow job she gave a couple of episodes ago. Roulette is hardened. I like that Hall is showing that stripping is a part of the global sex trade and that women have to step very fast to avoid falling from the sky right into the pit of prostitution. I also like that Hall is subtly showing that it is brown women the world over silently and secretly exploited in sex work and trafficking at much higher numbers. This is part of why Uncle Clifford has the rule of no hoeing. Pragmatically he also wants to avoid legal entanglements but he does his best to protect the women working for him too. I loved that Whisper and Roulette turned the tables on the dissatisfied John but know it was unrealistic. Unfortunately women in prostitution don’t have the option of the buddy system but maybe they should. Along with others I still yawn over Hailey and Andre and can’t see him becoming mayor unless someone does something miraculous. Andre now annoys me beyond telling, such a man child and I liked him in his first scene. What is poor Mercedes going to do about her injured shoulder and arm? I was very nervous about the feeling of heaviness she described.

Fun statistic: the overwhelming majority of teen pregnancies are a teenage girl and as you put it, a “grown ass man.” The stereotype of high school sweethearts is just that, a stereotype and doesn’t represent the norm or majority. For most (all?) of history the grown ass man has skated and the teenage girl has suffered some sort (or several sorts) of life altering, soul destroying punishment. I’m so glad that Terricka is getting a second chance to grow up and let her hips come in. I don’t like Shelle. I wouldn’t like her sanctimonious, self righteous ass if she was sober as a judge and talking to god with Patrice. I don’t like that Mercedes had her child taken from her based on what everyone else thought was right. I don’t like that Shelle gleefully participates in damaging a mother child relationship while she masturbates herself with visions of her own suffering goodness. In her own way she’s every bit as evil as Patrice. Shelle blamed a fifteen year old girl for her grown ass husband’s adultery and continues to punish Mercedes and Terricka for sins not theirs rather than fully face the truth, the truth that would remove her narrative of sainthood and make her just another suffering woman. She’s doing incalculable damage, middle class veneer notwithstanding. I don’t like Shelle. PS - This is not against anything you wrote, just my own strong dislike of the character and situation.

Its good to see Lil’Murda recovering. I like him with Grandma and with Uncle Clifford. I liked him with Big Teak too. Lil’Murda has a real sweetness to him. Seeing history repeat itself with Terricka and Mercedes was heart wrenching though I don’t think Mercedes has ever been as mean as her mother. Truly. Mercedes has been a victim of circumstances. I knew Hall wouldn’t let me down. I was sad and glad to see Terricka break the pattern so that she could at least grow up. Also that Hall tangentially addressed that women of color have the highest number of terminations in this country, a fact that I haven’t seen anywhere in the recent rhetoric. I know this was written and filmed before the Supreme Court decision but you know Hall is well aware of all of the facts. I adored Clifford detailing his family history in the Pynk. Americans have become a rootless people in many ways and seeing people still connected to the land they live on was a very nice touch.

Well we shouldn’t have to settle for a life designed by the patriarchy but Billie is stumping for a patriarchal role no matter what. She’s either wifebot or her choice of big dick seeking sexbot who gets all her self esteem and identity from the sexual regard of men. This show doesn’t have a single feminist thought in its pretty little head; it’s all about Billie as patriarchal object no matter which way she goes. And according to this show all women need to be happy is a dick so big that they need a prosthetic to represent it. This is seventh grade level sexual contemplations, nothing even remotely adult or feminist.

Well so much for my hope that this show would get an Emmy nod. The same shows seemed to sweep everything which is a bit disappointing. OMG. I’m slayed!! We aren’t getting Episode 07 until next week. Huge boo to Starz on this one. :(

Thank you! I started out liking the characters introduced but yes, now they’re both creepy and cringe. Perhaps they deserve each other, lol. Except that I can’t see Autumn putting up with such a man child in disguise for very long. Beyond the brilliant realism this episode set the high point for the darkness encroaching at least some of which will drive the dramatic tension over the next four episodes.

A couple of good articles about the show, well one is a podcast but the transcript is on the same page. https://andscape.com/features/p-valley-creator-katori-hall-takes-us-through-the-stories-of-the-pynk/amp/ https://www.wgaeast.org/onwriting/katori-hall-p-valley/#:~:text=Kaitlin speaks with writer Katori,a pole%2C and much more.

I liked Andre when they first introduced him outside the Pynk taking pictures and being human with Autumn. He seemed charming. The more we’ve gotten to know him though the more I’ve disliked him. Weak, whiney and worst of all not nearly as good at the game as he thinks he is. That spells disaster. Farrah did say to Coach that he shouldn’t go back on a deal. I agree, Mercedes definitely earned her stack and then some. I was surprised that Mercedes seems emotionally involved with Farrah. She didn’t play it that way during their last meeting. This should be interesting. Now she needs the money even more with Shelle out to lunch in various ways and Terricka pregnant and willing to come home. Does anyone know why the guy Roulette was with at the end said he’s a whore too? A resounding yes to everything you said about Teak and Lil’Murda. Teak’s last day and suicide and backstory were honestly some of the most emotionally involving stuff I’ve seen in a very long time. Because I understood why he did it. Yes, part of me wanted Lil’Murda to talk him out of it but I understood. They say everyone has their breaking point but it wasn’t the break it was the weight of trying to hold the broken pieces together. John Clarence Stewart deserves an Emmy nomination (and win but I would settle for the resume building credit of the nom if I was sure he’d get it) and so does Katori Hall for the writing. I know this is drawing on a lot of genre traditions but its breaking new ground too. I’m moving from smitten into besotted. I liked Corbin a lot better last season too. I loved the red headed bastard at a family reunion vibe. He was aggressive and angry from years of being the secret son but he didn’t have the whiny, entitled anger we’re seeing now. I thought he might be a real behind the scenes operator and that years of being dismissed might have given him restraint and judgment. Doesn’t look that way atm.

Well, that was intense to put it mildly. I was no sooner thinking “I think I love Teak” and love him and Lil’Murda together when he shot himself in the head. Devastating because as Lil’Murda tried to convince him, there were things to live for but sometimes the dark and the pain are just too much. The hole is too deep. I love that one of Teak’s last acts (before traumatizing him for life) was to remind Lil’Murda of his poetry and what it meant to him. I hope that Lil’Murda can come to terms and understand that Teak loved him but he just couldn’t live in the hole anymore and he never really left that closet. Teak might have survived but in ways he was murdered as surely as his siblings were. He just had to walk around a little longer. RIP Teak. May you truly know peace. Brilliant writing and acting because I feel like a real person just died. I really hope that Lil’Murda is too grief stricken to continue his relationship with Uncle Clifford right away. I know that is where he ran and that makes sense but Lil’Murda is sincere as played. He will be guilty and hurt for a while. Are Mercedes and Farrah going to have an affair? I read their dynamic entirely differently last episode. I was a little surprised that Coach caught on to the truth though. This will be interesting to watch. Terricka repeating history and family patterns is cliched as writing but true to life and soul. I wonder if Mercedes will get her a termination. Well. Keyshawn now knows where she stands and she is playing the part she needs to while looking for her escape. She is determined to escape too. I’m rooting for her even though the scales fully falling from her eyes combined with the need to propitiate Derrick must be damn near killing her. Of course Andre wants Autumn to crawl. Just sigh on that one. The writer is so brilliant. The situations are real and true to life but never feel like a cliche or a trope. Hats off and to the actresses and actors who bring these people to life. Should be remembered as outstanding American realism and neo-noir and I hope it is.

Watching this now.

I remember when Dancing at the Blue Iguana came out but I never saw it. Thanks for the reminder, I’ll make a point of catching it. :)

Agreed but the fractured Cinderella retelling helped the audience understand the emotional component of how abused women get trapped. Derrick started as seemingly sympathetic even though the red flags were out all over the place. Practically she is trapped by children, a forever tie to this man. So yes, I’m hoping Derrick will meet his just desserts so that Keyshawn and her children can be safe. Because as long as he is alive the children are automatic entry into her life. It sucks but its true. Worse this awful man could take some of her money too. Are they actually married? Does anyone know?

Watching this now. I’m loving Uncle Clifford as the sad and cynical Fairy Godmother doing the narration. Adoring the Cinderella retelling in the modern South with Prince Charming developing as an abuser. Very realistic portrayal of how a male abuser and abusive relationship develops. But I always loved fractured fairy tales so this is right in my wheelhouse. OMG, back to add that I love that there was justice for Rome and his rapist, blackmailing and parasitical ways. You can tell that this was written by a woman, first for the justice and second because poison has classically been known as a woman’s weapon. But stealth was required in this situation because sometimes death is a sneaky ass bitch.

Well that is pretty amazing. I love how the show both gives us the makes it look easy performance and shows just how difficult it is. ETA: It seems there is a mix between actresses and body doubles and professional dancers doing the more difficult stunts and choreography. Either way the actresses do months of dance before the season starts to shoot and have to keep themselves not only in great physical shape but keep the dancing skills in their kinesthtic memory. Brandee Evans was told not to lose weight for the role of Mercedes so that she would be beautiful and realistic. I loved that because even though I have as many body image issues as the next woman, I know it isn’t right. I wonder if being athletic and dancy enough to even begin to learn the routines was part of the casting call and audition process.

I’m not a fan of cosmetic surgery in general. Brandee was beautiful and this didn’t make her more so. I was stunned by the perpendicular slow spins. Or was that the body double/real dancer? Are they using professional dancers? I don’t see how they couldn’t be for the more difficult stuff. I like your analysis too. It is business, but this is the kind of situation where lines get blurred. Because the client is supposed to think there is emotion involved. That’s the thing about being a courtesan; it isn’t just the sex, though that is important. It’s the whole package: Mercedes as an artist, as a smart woman, her personality and sharing it as a companion on every level. Let’s hope she doesn’t fall off the pole. I think Coach’s wife (I can’t remember her name either) may use this situation as a catalyst to address a lot of dissatisfactions in her life. i think wifey has the potential to become obsessed. I just hope Mercedes doesn’t get caught in the fallout.

I stumbled across Zola about halfway through and then rewatched the entire thing. Then I found out that it was an epic tweet based on true events. I’ve been cogitating on ideas for new American realism and neo-noir so both Zola and PValley have been amazing to watch. Not that Zola is a patch on PValley but its making me think.

Andre’s wife is the only character that I’m not sure I like the way she’s written. Even during Covid “where is your mask?” isn’t the line you use when you’ve been caught with your pants down, so to speak. I’m with you on the rudeness but during high quarantine I’m not sure where people would have been conducting an affair other than their car or home. I’m kind of back to written as a crazy bitch and this writer is too good for laziness like that. Katori doesn’t seem to like wives as a general rule. Coach’s wife is improving but again, she was first introduced as the boring wife that Coach is justified in being tired of f**king. It was very male gazey, even the threesome was telegraphed. I’m hoping that we will get some subtlety in her motives, that she both genuinely likes Mercedes and is trying to ruin her husband’s affair. If treating Mercedes like a courtesan is in fact an affair the way we see it. I’m not sure how I feel about the affair between Mercedes and the wife. I want to know Mercedes motives too. Does she really like the wife or was she taken off guard? Was Mercedes sincere or flattering her when she analyzed her photography? Or was she purposefully showing herself as something more than just a stripper on a pole? I liked the classism of the wife’s surprise at Mercedes analysis. See, this multi-layered writing is what made me love PValley in the first place. I’m not certain Mercedes is fully on board emotionally; she’s looked so surprised each time wifey has been sexual with her, first the threesome and then the ambush. It seems that at least part of what Mercedes is feeling is that she is paid for and has to make her choices and please people very carefully because of that. It makes my heart hurt for her. She’s never had to do this before and she’s jumped in at the very highest level that has a huge emotional and psychological component. Mercedes really is a courtesan in this situation. But it’s still working the high wire without a net. Mercedes looked absolutely beautiful in that entire scene. One thing I’ve loved is even though they make “falling on the sky look easy” PValley shows us the strength and skill involved with the elite pole dancers. These characters and their multiple motivations and reactions to events do seem like real people, at least most of them do. This is incredible American realism. I love Teak too and the portrayal of trauma in him and Diamond and even Keyshawn. Not to mention the realism of everyone still functioning as best they can because what choice do they have? I hope we don’t get a standard love triangle but doubt we will. With a couple tiny exceptions the writing is incredible. We’re setting up for an amazing season. One of my writing exceptions is Autumn. I’m worried that she’s getting too villainous but then again she is a traumatized loaner and outsider who had an agenda when she arrived and no ties to Chucalissa. The fact that the Pynk stood by her up to and including murder and body disposal doesn’t seem to have changed her ultimate goal and that surprised the loyal members of the Pynk.

I love the friendship developing between Mercedes and Coach’s wife too. It feels real to me and I’m kind of hoping that it messes entitled Coach all the way up.

A few weeks ago I stumbled across a movie that reminded me a bit of P Valley. Not as poetic, but some of the new American realism and its about a stripper road trip that goes bad. Based on a true story. Movie is called Zola and its worth checking out, especially once we all go into withdrawal once the season ends.

Loved this episode a lot. It set a heap of complications in motion, like a case of Chekhov’s machine guns! Roulette has already broken the rules of no hoeing and has a trick drop her off at the club afterwards. That’s been a serious Uncle Clifford rule so breaking it will be a problem I’m guessing. Andre is going to run for mayor supported by the redheaded bastard child (who I like a lot) and that will bring multiple points of conflict. I’m guessing that they will seek the support of the “wrong bitch” to get it done. They need the support of a church after all. Terrika is going to rebel out of pain and anger. Mercedes didn’t look any too thrilled when she was expected to hoe in a three way but didn’t have much choice it seems. I wonder where this will lead. I liked the wife and Mercedes sparring and begrudgingly liking each other. Loved the line of “I don’t get that much and I have to lie under him all week.” Truer words. I’m really enjoying the dynamic between Keyshawn and Lil’Murda. The actor brings a genuine sweetness to that role. Loved the friend thanking him for the light in the darkness. And yes, Keyshawn is going to get “caught” for a crime she hasn’t even committed. Hopefully it will get that cracker out of her life and off our screens. I worried that success would take away the poetry and the heart piercing real life insights of confused and conflicted souls navigating through life but this episode was right on target. Shelle soaking wet saying “I’m still loyal to a dead man who couldn’t be loyal to me when he was walking the earth. Now ain’t that some shit?” is the type of thing I mean. Or I love you being the only thought. Or the light in the darkness of friendship in a time of need. Fully on board here. How many episodes are we getting?

@Scarlett45 - That’s a good point about Andre’s wife. It just felt like they were portraying his wife in a way to make excuses for Andre and since I think Andre is kind of a sleaze bag I didn’t like it. And but just a sleaze in terms of Autumn, a sleaze in terms of the business he’s involved in. I like Diamond and felt for him so much in the grocery store parking lot but had to laugh when he took out his emotional frustration on the next hapless person without a mask.