jordanpond

Overall, I liked this premier. Random thoughts: I was happy to see Sally back and loved her very large, very fun club. And I thought the music was great. One of the highlights of seasons 1-3 was the fabulous variety of music. Season 4 was quite disappointing for me in this area because, although I thought Daughter Maitland had a great voice, it got boring every week to have her be the major source of music. So, hearing a new style of music at Sally's club drew me right back in. I like when this show leaves things for us to figure out, and, for me, this time it was interesting figuring out how permanent Nucky's stay in Cuba had been. When I first saw him with Sally, I thought he might have carried out his plan from last season's end and moved there with her permanently. But they made a point of showing him practicing his Spanish last season, and the fact that it was clear very early in this episode that he knew virtually no Spanish 7 years later was one of those early clues that he was merely there on business. I normally enjoy flashbacks, especially those that give new and important insights into a character. And there were some things that I enjoyed about the flashbacks in this episode: I thought that the actor portraying Louis was terrific -- I realized who he was supposed to be as soon as he began to speak (and even before I noticed that the boys in the water were tossing us clues by calling him "Sir Commodore.") I also liked how the 1884 boardwalk made the 1920s boardwalk we have come to know seem so very, very modern! But, all in all, I didn't feel like the flashbacks in this episode resulted in a big enough payoff in the end. We have already learned so much about Nucky's childhood and family members that I didn't feel that I got enough new insight considering the amount of time devoted to the flashbacks. I was glad there was no nudity in this episode. One general concern was that I had a hard time understanding a lot of the dialogue this time: when Sally and Nucky were dancing, it was hard to hear them over the music; when the man on the chain gang was singing or talking, the sounds of all the banging in the background drowned him out a bit. On the bright side, when the man got on top of Chalky, pointed a gun at him, but then asked him if he had ever used the telephone, the look on Chalky's face was absolutely priceless. What a gem. Margaret searching for the Abe Redstone/Arnold Rothstein file has me intrigued. I don't know anything about these gangsters' real lives, so I was disappointed to hear about AR's death since I have found Michael Stuhlbarg's portrayal of him suberb. And I was taken completely by surprise at Joe Masseria's murder. That was a great scene, I thought, even if I'll miss the very stylish Masseria and his fabulous mix of English and Sicilian dialogue. "No consider. Is mine."

KR Vermont, your idea wouldn't be boring to me. I get no enjoyment out of public humiliation (either self imposed or producer driven) or meanness.

Pollock, I really like your idea of two leads. I think it would be a great way to add interest for the viewers, and might make the atmosphere more fun and less potentially heartbreaking for the contestants. I also think it might be the only way that an African American might get to be a lead in this franchise. I'm guessing that one reason for Juan Pablo being chosen as the bachelor was to give an appearance of racial diversity. But Juan Pablo was an ethnic minority, not a racial one: he is considered Caucasian according to the US census. I think that Marquel is by far the closest an African American has ever come to having a legitimate shot at the lead, but I would be quite surprised (and pleasantly so) if the producers went ahead and cast him. But pairing him as co-bachelor with Arie or Chris? He might have a better shot at getting a lead that way.

All of this explosion this season reminded me of why I always lose interest in this show during the last 4 episodes (hometowns, fantasy suites, M/WTA, and the finale.) I find all the anticipation of the first night exciting, and the next several weeks of group dates, one-on-ones, and world travel to be great fun. But starting with the hometowns, it becomes quite evident how much the show requires the lead to be a liar, even if he/she went into the show with the best intentions. Probably on most seasons, during the hometowns, the lead is flat-out-lying to at least two of the families who have welcomed the lead into their home. I dislike the concept of taking up to three people to the fantasy suites, and I don't know what I find more objectionable :the way Chris Harrison uses salacious wording and generally goes out of his way to imply that something sexual goes on, or his complete about face -- when it suits him -- to chide contestants who don't seem to treat this time as private. And even if you think that Nick was faking all or some of his devastation (I happen to believe him) you know that the F2s of at least some seasons are completely blindsided and heartbroken. By the way, whether you are like me and dislike the practice of a man asking a father for his daughter's hand, or disagree with me and find this a nice and traditional gesture, I offer that there is likely agreement on both sides of the topic that this show makes a complete mockery of the practice For two men to ask for the bachelorette's hand is silly. And on Bachelor seasons it is downright ridiculous to see the lead ask four (!) fathers for their respective daughter's hand. Although I think Andi went really too far in her deception, I think it is only fair to acknowledge that there were probably other leads who engaged in similarly excessive "leading-on" of their F2 (and perhaps even F3), but who, unlike Andi, never had the extent of the deception revealed in such a public way. But even those who don't take it nearly as far are really put in a "no win" position according to the rules of the show: either you look undecided up to the end and make your bond with the F1 seem very weak, or affirm that you knew quite a long time who your F1 would be, and thus look like a manipulative liar. Sure, nobody has to agree to be the lead in the show, and I think they do need to be accountable for their choices. But the fact that the show, by its very format, forces the lead into a no-win situation in which they look bad either way is something that Chris Harrison never seems to acknowledge. In some seasons he treats the spurned contestants as stalkers if that suits him, in others (as with Juan Pablo) it suited him to point out what a cad JP was, presumably to make the other bachelors and the whole "process" of the franchise look good by comparison. I guess in some seasons in which the leads and contestants are more quiet/circumspect in their discussions, it's easier to focus on the fun parts of the show. But this season made it impossible to ignore how much the format guarantees that someone will look bad, and how much the show's producers seem to wash their hands of their very big part in all of it.

There's something about Nick and Andi's breakup in his room that I don't think anyone has mentioned. To make sure I hadn't remembered Andi's words incorrectly, I did something I never thought I'd do: I re-watched this and wrote down her first few sentences of explanation. Although I never really had a very favorable opinion of Nick, I find him quite reasonable in his confusion: I quote her: "You said that the last time you got engaged, you woke up that morning and you didn't feel like something was right. And I woke up this morning, and didn't feel that something was right and I can't go through with something that I don't think is right." My impression when she said those words was that she had been planning to choose -- and get engaged to -- Nick, but woke up that morning, and realized that she couldn't go through with that engagement. Now the thing she "couldn't go through with" seems to be bringing him to the final rose ceremony. But the fact that she compared her present feelings to the day that Nick got engaged clearly implied -- at least to me, and evidently to him -- that the thing she "couldn't go through with" was an intended engagement to Nick. If I, a completely dispassionate observer, interpreted her words that way, I can't fault Nick at all for being confused. That's why I can't fault Nick at all for asking her during that conversation, if it was (I believe his words were) "us or someone else." Yes, of course, there was a someone else in the final two. But Andi's statements seemed to negate the possibility that the decision was between Nick and Josh. It seemed to imply that Josh was out of the picture: the only question was what to do now that she "couldn't go through with" an engagement to Nick. Now that wasn't how she actually felt, but that's definitley the way it sounded to me.

A few thoughts: If I recall correctly, Gordon didn't intend to comment on his parents' marriage. It was only after Rose said that relations between the sexes should be about both love and physical intimacy (in response to her finding the "girlie" pictures that weren't even his, poor kid) that he pointed out that his parents' marriage was not about both. I agree with you that he probably had no idea why they were sleeping in separate bedrooms, as neither Harry nor Rose would have let Gordon know about Harry's extra-marital affairs. I agree with you that I didn't like the Victor and Agnes romantic tension of the first few episodes. In fact, I didn't find it romantic at all -- it was simply tension. Victor was constantly undermining Agnes' efforts to decorate the Palm Court: he didn't like the proposed "foreign" flags of one design, nor the "scary" tiger of another, nor the "screeching" birds of another. I liked an awful lot about Season Two, but I found their presentation of Victor's "romantic" feelings in the early episodes to be anything but romantic. He interfered with her work as much as that sour pickle, Mr. Thackeray, did. Where's the romance in that?

I finally got around to watching "On Demand" the 40 minutes of this episode that I never saw due to its pre-emption by storm coverage. Random thoughts: I give Josh credit for speaking Spanish on his date. Either he's fluent in Spanish, which certainly goes against his "dumb jock" stereotype, or he's not fluent but was brave enough to engage in conversation with native Spanish speakers. Either way, well done. Although he did seem quite at ease with the children during the baseball game, Andi's assumption that this indicated that he would be a great father is frightening. She is aware that kids also need help with homework, get sick, need baths, get picked on by other kids, need help getting dressed, argue with their parents, get scared in the middle of the night...right? Okay, I watch this show every season, and I'm finally going to be brave enough to say this: Despite the 8,562 reasons I would never be on this show, I do sometimes think about what I'd do if I were 28 and single and the bachelorette. One thing is that there would be no sleeping with anyone, including my F1, in the Fantasy Suite. If Andi talks one more time about enjoying a man "taking charge" I fear I'll throw myself out a window. If she says this during tonight's finale, and I'm not here to discuss the show, you'll know why.

I think we are supposed to see what happened to Roger Grove when he got exactly what he thought he wanted. Last season, he cruelly cast aside Miss Mardle - whom he referred to as the love of his life - in order to marry young Doris whom he barely knew but who could give him many children. Now he's got those children and it has cost him his sleep and possibly his job. "Be careful what you wish for because you might get it..." Stay tuned, Kirsty, it gets more interesting. It's a shame how they changed Roddy Temple's personality toward the end of the season. He was very likeable in the beginning (or, you know, one of the most likeable of the many characters on this show who are willing to commit adultery). But he became quite scary, especially the way he used Rosalie to get to Rose. I kind of wish they had just let him go after Rose revealed who she was in the middle of the season, rather than have him come back later on and turn out to be so creepy. Oh well. Rose gets involved in a few interesting things in the middle of this season, so I think you'll be pleased. From what I understand, she was a very accomplished and interesting person in real life. I've got to say one nice thing about Loxley: he has fabulous clothes! So many of the men on this show are great dressers, but I find him to be the best of the best. Enjoy watching season 2!

It doesn't to me. This show is sexist, and many of our society's gender norms are sexist (for example, that getting married is considered so much more essential to a woman's sense of worth than it is to a man's), but I don't find your belief that more women than men watch this silly show to be sexist. It's probably the truth.

Amen, Curio! As someone who kept my own name after marriage, my ears really perked up on that one. Yes, a lot of women do change their name, but it sure isn't automatic.

I forgot to mention that another thing I found really interesting was how many people met each other for the first time during this particular episode. In addition to Josie meeting Florian, Harry met Bill Sumertime, and Gordon met Grace Calthorp. Also, we in the audience were introduced to spunky Miss Ellis (of the loading bay), and we "met" the stunning Loxley dining room. Gorgeous! Loved Kitty showing up at Frank's office and planting a kiss on him!

I had never heard of Amanda Abbington prior to this show, and I think she is just remarkable. Her facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, and everything are superb. In fact she's so great that I never even consciously noticed the facial expressions, etc., until my second viewing of the season. That to me is really the mark of great acting -- when someone uses her/his tone of voice, posture, facial expression,etc. so well and convey deep emotion to the audience so subtly that we forget it is acting! The storyline of her and Florian is good enough to draw me in, but their acting is what gives me goosebumps. I thought it was very touching when he was so cautiously handling the violin when she gave it to him. I agree with you that he was great. He first looked astonished at her generosity, then afraid to touch the violin because of all his sad memeries, then really hopeful that it could bring back nice memories, as she suggested. Marvelous. They made me really invested in their story. I rather liked the Mr. Thackeray detective scenes. I thought the suspense of the whole Henri storyline was handled great this season. The mystery(ies) about him lasted throughout most of the season, but never got old for me because little pieces of his story kept getting revealed a bit at a time. An important piece was revealed in this episode's Thackeray spying scene -- about the mysterious woman returning to Germany -- so I think the scene served its purpose. On a more shallow note, these period dramas are giving me a great appreciation for the men's fashions of the times, and I loved watching Mr. Thackeray in his gorgeous camel coat following Henri who was sporting his fabulous purple vest.

I hope that Andi starts to tone down her group date attire. I've been cringing at how overdone some of these dresses have been -- too short and too tight and too low cut. The dresses, combined with the excessive makeup and false eyelashes are coming across as desperate, and I think that's really unfortunate. I think she's a very attractive woman and would look much better -- and more confident -- in a more natural, comfortable, toned down look.

What a wonderfully stated post, Empressv! I agree with everything you said. When I rewatched the whole season, one of my favorite things was watching the "seeds planted" as you say, of Josie and Florian's romance. There were subtle clues of blossoming romance all the way back in his first episode, for example, when he took her hands in his after playing the violin for her, Agnes, and Victor. I originally misinterpreted this as mutual -- but platonic -- affection, but the seeds of romance were indeed already being planted! And in the scene in this episode where she was helping him with his formal attire, they already looked like a pair that was headed out for a date, even though neither had yet acknowledged their feelings. Ahh, such a wonderful romance and a marvelous season!

You could be right. I 've been told that I'm quite naive. By the way,can I just say I "like" this entire thread? Everyone's commemts are great!

Oh I think it looks really hard. I never realized it was an object of ridicule! I was really looking forward to the mime group date because it looked like so much fun in the preview, and it didn't disappoint. I was impressed with many of the men, particularly Marquel. He did great with that young boy. I liked Josh and Andi's date. He seemed sincere to me. I hope Brian goes far because I like seeing someone so nice on my screen, but I don't think he's right for Andi.

I'm so sorry that you lost your husband. I know that's extremely difficult. And I'm glad that you found something that really helped. Here's hoping that Dylan finds something equally helpful, no matter what it is. He's got quite a burden to bear.

I'm so excited about this upcoming episode that I can't even find the right words. So I decided to do this: That was me, miming all my thoughts about tomorrow's episode.

Lindacht, I agree with a lot of the things you said, but I disagree about Dylan. Most people are able to deal with personal tragedies -- even multiple losses such as Dylan experienced-- without any kind of therapy. If he's like most people he doesn't need counseling, I just think he needs to step away from television and work things out in private. He seems quite nice and I wish him well.

Although I thought Eric made a lot of good points with Andi, and was quite articulate while making them, I do understand how she took offense at him calling her a "TV actress." Whether or not it was Eric's intention, he did cross a line from expressing his hopes and frustrations to name calling, and I can see how even the most reasonable person could be quite insulted. But I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to people in real life, and I really, really give the benefit of the doubt to people whose interactions are edited by a third party then aired for all to see. So in the end I just interpret it as two seemingly nice people having a really difficult time ironing things out in a very public, artificial, and stressful situation. No bad people on either side in my opinion, just really sad for both parties. On a lighter note, when I was on vacation, I came back to my room briefly and watched a little of the group basketball date. As I was sitting in my hotel room, snacking on a little dry cereal, Marquel talked about how the "losers" were going to go back to their hotel room and eat cereal. The nerve! And to think that I loved his black and white cookie and was hoping he'd be the next bachelor (if, of course, he's not Andi's true love.) I'm sure he'll be devastated to know that I'm now fully behind the adorable, blushing Brian for the next bachelor. (Unless, of course, he's Andi's true love...)

I realize that I'm probably a bad person to comment on this, because I don't like to see "train wrecks." But, if you do want to watch a season that was a complete mess, yes, you'll definitely like Deanna's season. And Jason's, too. By the way, to fully understand Jason's story you have to watch the "After the Final Rose" episode as well. ETA: After writing my previous post last night, I have even more reasons to recommend Jillian's season. She had a few really fun/funny people on there (Mike, Tanner, etc.) And since I think they went three seasons in a row, Deanna-Jason-Jillian might really make a fun trilogy.

Hi, Juneaucat. I'll toss out a few ideas: In general, I like the older seasons better than the newer for a few reasons. In the older seasons, they didn't give out roses on the 1-on-1 dates or the group dates, so it created more suspense. Nowadays, for the most part, it's too easy to spot the people who have no chance for the final 4 relatively early in the game because they never get a group date rose, etc. Also, in recent seasons the unfair editing has become ridiculous: they try to make fools out of people by unflattering/misleading editing, playing one poorly worded comment over and over again, etc. I'm sure they always had this, but it seemed a lot less common in early seasons. Also, it seems as though the bachelors on the older "Bachelorette" seasons used to dress much nicer, and it made the opening night seem much more formal and exciting. Also, the older seasons used to split up the group dates to something like 5-on-1, rather than the 13-on-1 silliness that they have now. One advantage of the recent seasons, though, is that the travel locations have become incredibly scenic. Jillian's season in particular was breathtaking. In fact, you might like that season simply to watch Reid, who seems to be one of the single women's favorite contestants of all time. Perhaps my all-time favorite season was Meredith's simply because she seemed to have a lot of really nice men. I also liked Trista's season because, of all the Bachelorette seasons, that was the one where I think that most of the men were truly there for her. I think my least favorite was Ben's because he was neither nice nor nicely dressed, and it was more impossible than ever to suspend my disbelief to think that any of the women there would actually want to date him.

The nerve of them airing 2 episodes while I was away on vacation -- so much to catch up on! I normally hate to see people make fools of themselves, and I particularly dislike it when this show edits people to look foolish even when they've done nothing wrong, so I was really cringing when I saw that they were going to make all of the men sing. To my pleasant surprise, I thought the "Boyz" date turned out really great. I think it was the combination of the really fun atmosphere that the band created and the fact that everyone except Bradley was terrible that made it so enjoyable for the men and for me. I think if some of the men were good it would have been embarrassing for the others, but they were all so awful that it was a big basket of fun. I laughed (with them, not at them) until I cried. I think that really fun group dates are the best part of this show. Unfortunately, it was followed by the date with JJ, that I found to be really tasteless and thoughtless, for all the reasons already discussed by a few of you.

Chocolatine, It was Meredith's season. Sorry but I don't know if it's on Youtube.

Oh, Lanny's mom! Lanny will be head of household. You will be submissive. The most memorable hometown visit ever, in my opinion. Good times.