Proclone

She may very well have...but the show hasn't shown it and they've shown them alone multiple times. It's poor storytelling to just handwave important conversations as happening off screen. It breaks the fundamental rule of show don't tell.

For me it wasn't so much that I couldn't figure out what the future-speak meant...it was that it was all vomited on me in the first few minutes of the episode. An episode that was already jarring to the viewer because of the dramatic setting shift for the first third. I suppose if the idea was to make the audience feel confused and out of place they succeeded (and it may very well have been intentional). But I'm not sure if these forums are anything to go by, I don't think they did it in a way that's liable to draw the audience in further to the story. I really do like it when sci-fi and fantasy shows use very specific language to highlight how their societies are different. One of the most subtle and well handled ways I thought was on Fringe when they were in the alternate reality. It was subtle things like referring to a twenty dollar bill differently (I can't remember exactly how they referred to them but MLK was on it) or calling IDs "show me's" (as in show me your ID). Even Firefly (another Whedon show) had their characters speak in very specific ways that even went so far as to sprinkle in random Chinese. But it never overwhelmed the viewer with it. I can see how they got to most of the slang and jargon in this episode, but it wasn't super helpful to have it dumped on us in the opening. It seemed to me that scene was set shorty after Penance came to the orphanage (just after the scene of Horatio and Amalia's post coital discussion of her). Which continues to bother me. I can believe that Horatio (to some extent) wouldn't really bring up Amalia's true history even when they were alone, especially if she didn't bring it up first. And while I can completely believe that Penance would keep Amalia's secrets....I don't believe that Penance would not ask about the future when they were alone. The Penance we know is inquisitive and interested in the world...I can't imagine her not asking questions when she got the chance. It seems like a cop-out from the writers that she knew all along. And it annoys me when characters don't behave in established ways just for the sake of a plot twist.

I agree completely. I understand the desire to make a setting (especially a fantasy/sci-fi setting) specific and unique. And language and how people speak is a great way to do that. People speaking markedly different than we do is a great way to clue people into how the world is different. That being said, you still have to be able to understand what the fuck the characters are talking about! I felt like first few minutes of the episode were spoken entirely in gibberish. For a second I wasn't entirely sure I wasn't just having a stroke and lost the ability to understand English. I turned on the subtitles and that didn't help whatsoever. The fact that the characters were stressed and speaking rapidly in the beginning didn't help at all. Soldiers using jargon (even if it isn't jargon we use) and speaking rapidly might be realistic, but that doesn't make it an enjoyable experience for the viewer. I found it got a little better as the first chapter went on. Which in some ways is more annoying. It's like they wanted to blow their future-speak wad right off the bat, not remotely considering that sprinkling in the future-speak would make it easier for the viewer to follow. I appreciate when fantasy and sci-fi don't spoon feed you exposition but rather let you experience the world...but this was a bridge too far (I had the same complaint about last week with the introduction of the Galanthi, but this week kicked the problem up to eleven). I'll echo what others have said, I'm not sure how I feel about this show or the turn (no pun intended) it's taken. I signed up for people in Victorian London with weird powers trying to find their place in the world, and this show has turned into something else entirely. And I have a feeling that the people with weird powers finding their way, is going to be less important than the overreaching plot. And I'm not sure if I'm down for that show, since it very much is not the one I signed up to watch. That being said, I really do like the characters, especially Amalia (Stripe...Zephyr...Molly...whoever). I do like that she a deeply flawed person just trying to do her best and that her best isn't even that good sometimes (what she did to Sarah). I like her relationship with Penance (whom I also really like). I think the acting is quite good. I have to give both Laura Donnelly and Claudia Black (Aeryn Sun remains my first love, so I was really stoked about seeing her) major props for having to play the same character in two different bodies. Donnelly did a really good job speaking like Black did in chapter one and Black did a really good job at having the same mannerisms that Amalia has had throughout the series (the finger tapping for example). There are parts I really like about this show, and there are parts I don't much care for. I worry the parts I don't much care for are going to over shadow the rest and I'm not sure when this show returns (I'm assuming it will be) that I'll be returning to it. Maybe if only to see how different it will be without really having much Whedon influence.

I don't think the profanity is excessive, just that it often seems out of place. It was almost as if the show was written for a network with different standards and then they got picked up by HBO and decided to randomly sprinkle it in. I have no problems with profanity (one of my favorite all time shows is Deadwood). I just don't think that how it's used in this always sounds organic. Actually I think it would work better if they used more profanity. As of now it's used rarely enough in the show that it should be used for effect, but it's often just put in throw away lines. Either have the characters curse regularly or have them only really use it when trying to make a dramatic point. I don't really mind being dropped into a world and sort of figuring it out as the story unfolds. But it needs to make sense. If Amalia had spoken about the Galanthi since episode one, I have would have way less of an issue with it, even if it wasn't fully explained. It would mean that it was a planned part of the story. In this case, the show has switched from implying that no one except Maladie (and maybe True) had any idea what caused the turns, to now saying that everyone at the orphanage at least knows that Amalia from Victorian England and has something to do with the creation of the touched. It's less being dropped in the deep end of the pool and more a bait and switch. And I think it's poor story telling.

I think one of the issues with Myrtle is that she can't read or write. Which would definitely make sense. Her family was poor. True definitely mentions it in the next episode, but I also think they mentioned it when they first took her in. Teaching someone to read who understands English but can't speak it must be very difficult so I imagine it's very slow going for whoever is teaching her. So it's unclear if she could write out what she means to say in English or it would be equally jumbled.

I might be in the minority, but I kind of hated the scene with Penance and Augie actually. I thought her being suspicious of the bird was a little funny, but him denying it and her first being relieved and then pissed off he wasn't peaking, pissed me off. It had shades of "women be crazy." And you can't ever figure out what they want. It was also painfully Whendon. I mentioned in another post, but I'm getting sick of how Whendon this show is. I used to like him and his style of humor, but honestly as I've both aged and more things have been relieved about him, I can see his thinly veiled misogyny in it. And that particular scene seemed like a quintessential example of it. Maybe I'm just over thinking it... I don't really have strong feeling about nudity in shows. Seeing nude people doesn't bother me, nor do I find it particularly titillating. But that sex scene came out of now where even by HBO sexposition standards. It really did seem like, "Hey we forgot we're on HBO, we should add a sex scene!" Honestly, I sometimes feel that way even with the language in this show. Occasionally the "f*cks" sound like they're added in to meet some sort of profanity quota. Language could be used to good effect like having very proper Penance drop the f-word for dramatic effect, but sometimes it seems like they just throw it in because they can and they haven't said it in X amount of minutes. I couldn't agree more. There's a fine line between having a character be mysterious and hinting at secrets about them and making the audience feel like their missing something. At the start I thought they did a good job of hinting with Amalia lines like, "This isn't my face." That makes her intriguing but doesn't make me feel like I've missed something. But now, for this show that line was about seven miles back. I really felt like I had fallen asleep and missed a couple scenes or even an entire episode. It would have been one thing to the people at the orphanage have some inkling that Amalia isn't exactly what she seems or even for Penance or Doc to have a pretty good idea (although I maintain that while Penance would keep True's secrets, there's no way she wouldn't ask questions while they were alone and we've seen them alone plenty) what's going on with her. It's entirely another thing to name drop something the audience has never heard of and make it seem like the characters have an idea what it means. This all could have very easily been fixed by having a scene of True telling everyone that's she's not quite like them, and while she can't fully explain it, she needs them to trust her. As it was presented in the show, it just seems like there were missing pages in the script. I also might me in the minority, but I would have been okay if this show never explained why the turns happened. I would have been perfectly happy if it had just remained a mysterious event with no explanation throughout the run of the show. I really would have been happy to watch a show that was completely about how touched people now how to fit into the world and True and Adair fighting for acceptance and to keep the touched safe, while people like Massen fight to push them into the shadows. Since the end of the first episode, I'm not sure how I've felt about the spaceship (if that is what it is) and it as the reason for the turns. I still don't. But this weirdly disjointed episode didn't make me more excited for it.

This seems like a little bit of a cop-out on the show's part. They haven't previously hinted that Penance or anyone else knows more than Amalia is a just a touched woman. I can believe the Doc would keep Amalia's secrets and not bring it up, but while I think Penance would keep her secrets I can't believe that she would never bring it up when they are alone. And we've seen plenty of scenes where they are alone. If nothing else she would question Amalia about any technology she might have encountered.

I really don't think "the tall girl", who I believed is called Primrose, is Massen's daughter. She attended the event at the Bidlow's with the other touched. Assuming that Massen did agree to have his touched daughter shipped off to an orphanage, I imagine that if he found out she was paraded around in public, in society where she could be recognized, he go apoplectic. Even if Amalia didn't know she was his daughter, Lavinia most like would have and never would have allowed it either. I'm pretty sure his daughter is locked up in the attic. That was why the phone installer was diverted away from that area. What I'm confused about is...does everyone apparently know Amalia is an alien? Penance seems to and so did Lucy. They've been really cagey about Amalia and what's up with her up until this point (this isn't my face, I wasn't assigned this mission...) and it seemed that no one in show knew either (maybe not even Amalia herself). Now she's almost casually talking about how she got left behind (by the spaceship) and no one really seems that surprised. It seemed that Maladie was the only one who remembered a space ship was the cause of the turns. But like I said Penance and Lucy seemed to understand that Amalia was somehow involved and that she was left behind. Have they always known that and they've just conveniently never had an onscreen conversation with their friend about how she's an alien? I feel like there are missing scenes or something. Edited to Add: I hesitated to watch this when I heard Whedon was involved because...well Whedon. But then it seemed like he had left so I decided to give it a go. After watching the third and forth episode back to back and despite neither of them being written or directed by Whedon...I'm starting to get a bit...I'm not sure tired is the right word, but it's all I got...tired by how Whedon-esq this is. I think the acting is very good and this is no way a criticism of the actors but...Penance is Kaylee with the serial numbers filed off, who was basically a version of Willow to begin with, Auggie is very Simon-esq. People have already compared Maladie with Drusilla, but she also has shades of River. Amalie is interesting but even she reminds me of a gender flipped Malcom Reynolds. Someone at their core who wants to do the right thing but isn't opposed to unsavory means to get what they want. I don't know...I really want to like this. I like the premise very much and I really do think the acting is top notch. I'm just hoping it becomes more of it's own thing. Maybe I would be more tolerant of the Whedon-verse parallels if I could watch his stuff and just see quirky characters...but I don't. I see Whedon's own weird hang-ups about women and his fetish for skinny attractive women beating people up. I'm really hoping that assuming this gets more seasons that it come into it's own more and becomes it's own thing.

I did like it when Amalia lampshaded it though when she told Maladie that she didn't want to listen to her bs riddles (paraphrasing).

Ammonite is such a mediocre movie I can't imagine Winslet being involved was the force behind it getting made...Though I did love how SNL poked fun at how almost hysterically explict the sex scene in it was. And don't get me started on how viscerally angry The World to Come made me. It's one the most self indulgent versions of the genre that I've ever seen.

I honestly wonder if it wasn't originally a more significant plot point that linked back to not being able to lie your way to happiness. Steve was living a life that was not his, so it was a lie. But then while they were editing they realized how creepy it was and while they couldn't quite manage to cut it completely they tried to downplay it and hope people wouldn't think about it too much. But that actually makes it worse in some ways. If Diana and Steve admitted it was screwed up that would have been something, but having them just take this guys body for a joyride without ever considering him is much worse imo.

Honestly Heaven Can Wait is also creepy. I remember thinking it was creepy as a kid when I first saw it But at least, one it was made in the 70s when that kind of plot was more acceptable, and two the bodies Joe winds up in the owners had died. It wasn't their body anymore and they don't get snapped back into them and forced to live the consequences of whatever happened while they were not in control. For all we know the poor guy Steve and Diana hijacked, could have lost his job. Could have had a significant other break up with him, could have had numerous consequences to basically disappearing from his life for however long Steve was there. Not to mention, like I said could you imagine how traumatizing it would be to "wake up" standing behind a pillar, covered in bruises that you don't remember getting, while everyone is running around and the world in potentially ending. And the last thing you remember is going to bed. It's really screwed up when you give it the slightest amount of thought.

Because they hijacked his life. He's a human being with thoughts feelings and desires. His body shouldn't be used without consent. I hesitated to use the word in my previous post, but they essentially raped him. Would you be down for your body to be taken over and used without your permission? For some strangers to go through your clothes to sleep and have sex with your body in your bed and for you to have no memory of it? It's awful and disgusting. And I'm disappointed in Patty Jenkins for writing it

It really pains me to say this, because I loved the first one, but I thought this was pretty awful. And I have a pretty high tolerance for sitting back and enjoying mindless comic movies. I don't hate Sucide Squad or Justice League and I actually enjoyed Birds of Prey. But there was so much potential with this and it was such a disappointment. Firstly I thought the action was by in large boring and pretty repetitive. There was nothing like the scene of Diana running through no-man's-land in this one. And some of the special effects seemed pretty bad to me. The action also stops for most of the second act and the "plot" is not interesting enough to carry the movie. Largely I thought the plot was kind of convoluted and the muguffian and it's rules weren't super clear. The message of the movie also seemed to be really muddled to me. Diana is told in the beginning that she can't win by lying. But wishing for something isn't really the same as lying. No one who made a wish was trying to deceive anyone (except Max, maybe). In fact they generally had no idea that they were actually doing anything. None it it really thematically connects in my mind. They could have made it work better if they had had the message to little Diana be you can't find happiness through a short cut (like a wish). But the message was explicitly about lying not just going down the easy path is wrong. It seems weird, like there was a big change in the message of the script at some point. So perhaps I'm the minority, but I actually like Gal Gadot, as Diana. I also like her and Chris Pine together. But I absolutely hated how he was brought back, and can't understand why they choose to do it the way the did. They put him in another man's body. Another man who absolutely did not consent to it. A man that we assume has a life. We know from the end that he has friends. Does he have a girlfriend? Does he have a job that he just didn't show up for for however long? Was his family worried about him? Then did he "wake up" standing behind a pillar while the world was going to shit with no memory of what happened or how he probably got the numerous bruised all over? That's got to be super traumatizing. They hijacked this guys life and neither Steve or Diana seemed remotely remorseful about that (which seems super out of character for both of them). And let's not ignore the fact that they had sex while Steve was in this guy's body. Sex this guy did not consent to. It's disgusting. And there was no reason to do it that way. Steve very easily could have shown up in his own body. The stone made walls appear and nuclear weapons pop up out of thing air. You're going to tell me it could whip up a body for Steve? This whole subplot put such a bad taste in my mouth that I couldn't enjoy any of the okay parts of the movie. There is also no consequences for the villains. Max get's off scot free after almost destroying the world. Because he loved his son? Give me a break. What happened to Barbara, was she back to her baseline personality? Did she regret what she had done? I thought there would be an after credit scene with her, to set her up as still being a villain for the next one, but instead we got Linda Carter. Which was okay I guess, but it seemed a little on the nose. This was a big old hot mess, for me. And the Steve subplot was just plain off putting. I spent most of the movie saying, "Why Patty, Why?" over and over again. I don't understand how a movie where Patty Jenkins had more control, at least on paper, was actually so much worse. I wonder if we'll find out if DC interfered with the script at some later date.

Sloane's children were monsters, but when you consider that there parents are separated and they're not allowed to talk about it...their behavior makes much more sense. They seemed like much more normal kids in the end montage. To be honest everyone in that family needed intensive therapy...except oddly enough, Jane, who might have been a little strange but as she said, at least knew herself. I would have preferred a time skip where Abby and Harper were separated for bit allowing Harper to deal with her issues on her own, and then have them come back together. I also buy that Abby forgave Harper because that seems in character, but it doesn't mean it was healthy. Like I said I just really didn't like Harper and how she treated Abby. Even if Abby was a just platonic friend Abby had invited home with her, she still treated her terribly by any standard. She ignored her and left her alone at parties. She ditched her to hang out with old friends (even a token, "Oh we can go if you want," and having Abby tell her to stay in that scene, would have made her more likable). Sent Abby off with her sister, that even Harper doesn't get along with and her niece and nephew that were misbehaved. She didn't really stick up for Abby when she was accused of stealing...I get that it was a romcom and things like that are staples, but maybe we should all expect and deserve better from both straight and queer romcoms. Let's see healthy relationships that overcome obstacles. And maybe I'm overthinking a silly romantic movie, but I really liked Abby as a character and in the end...I felt like she was in a relationship with someone who just didn't deserve her. She seems to be a loving supportive girlfriend to Harper at every turn and we never really get to see that reciprocated. I can't help but think that was probably indicative of their relationship as a whole, and being with Harper's family just turned a dynamic that was already there up to eleven. Harper also has a long history of treating her partners badly, obviously Riley, but it's also implied she didn't treat Connor well either. She was never honest with him, even when he asked her to be and she continued to flirt with him, for appearance sake. Basically Abby deserves much better than Harper.

Honestly I was also kind of rooting for Abby and Riley by the end...especially after the revelation of what Harper did to Riley in high school and her actively denying her relationship with Abby at the Christmas party in front of everyone. That was just a just a bridge too far for me to still root for them to be a couple in the end. On the one hand as a queer women, who was super closeted for quite some time for similar reasons to Harper, I totally got where she was coming from. Her speech about not hiding Abby, but rather herself from her parents hit rather close to me...That being said she didn't do nearly enough to redeem herself by the end of the movie for the absolutely awful way she treated Abby, IMO. In all honesty I didn't really like her character and I agree we didn't get enough of them as a happy couple to make me understand why Abby wanted to marry Harper. Davis and Stewart did have chemistry and I did buy them as a couple, I just didn't really ever see why Harper would be Abby's favorite person. She's not exactly a bad person (especially by romcom standards) but she seems very quick to ignore Abby in favor of old rather vapid seeming friends and her family. They could have had her been a touch more likable in general, perhaps have her be the only one in the family that was nice to Jane. I also don't think it helped that she was obviously the favorite daughter. Seeing her parents nitpick on her life the way they did with her sisters would have gone a long way to make her more sympathetic as well and it would have been easier to understand her behavior. And while I can see why they put the revelation that she wasn't out where they did for the joke, I also would have liked her better if she had admitted it much sooner (like before they were in the car on the way) to Abby and gave her more of an opportunity to not go. Between all that and knowing what she did to Riley...makes it very hard for me to root for her. Also while her telling Abby that she was her family and she didn't care what her family thought anymore was sweet...It was also kind of empty. Her father hadn't really spoken to her yet but at that point it seemed clear that her mother and sisters were going to support her. She wasn't really risking anything. If they had her admit her relationship with Abby in public at the party, that might have shown how she had grown from high school when she was too afraid to do that for Riley. But having her bald face lie about her relationship in front of everyone, just put a sour taste in my mouth that couldn't be washed out by her telling her parents after that. Even if they had simply had her deflect by shouting out her sister's secret that she was getting divorced, wouldn't have been as bad, but to say her sister was lying... Riley on the other hand was funny, smart and seemed like a kind person. She could have been shitty to Harper but she wasn't. I really liked her and wouldn't have been upset if Abby and wound up with her. That being said, I did actually enjoy the movie. I think the ending did wrap up neatly a little too quickly. I don't realistically see parents who bemoan someone's "lifestyle choices" being so quick to be apparently unfazed by their daughter cuddling with her girlfriend on their couch. But I did like that Harper's parents weren't monsters, nor were they so over the top as to be unrealistic (this isn't Meet the Parents). I also liked that there weren't really any villains. Riley and the ex boyfriend (Colin?) could have easily been made to be the bad guys but both seemed to be quite nice. I also really liked Stewart as Abby. Both as a character and how Stewart portrayed her. I know a lot of people where bothered by it being a coming out story and that didn't super bother me, especially since it gives the somewhat hopeful message in the end that even judgmental parents might be more accepting than you would think. But I would love a good queer romantic comedy that didn't revolve around someone being closeted. Queer people do have other issues that can be used for drama besides just being in or out of the closet. All in all it was a pretty cute movie, I'm just hoping that Harper does quite a bit to make up for her behavior that we just didn't get to see.

I had heard that story. And quite frankly how India seems to describe her relationship with Alison…Well, it doesn't sound like it was entirely platonic at any rate. She said something to the effect that she and Alison talked about sexual things that India was uncomfortable and even the animation that go along with her flashback to joining DOS hint on the relationship being awfully touchy feely. I have no idea what exactly went on between them, but there definitely seemed to be sexual undertones there. Yeah, I can totally see Keith being one of those guys who would be convinced he could "turn" a lesbian woman. In general I'm curious how people Keith didn't want to sleep with, who happened to be LGBT faired in ESP. I just can't imagine too many queer people listening to the Jness or SOP misogyny and nodding along. Why would a lesbian or a gay man sit around and listen to how hard men have it, they just need to screw things and women just need to let them? Were the members of ESP who were queer just never steered towards those "tracks"? Wouldn't that make you question your involvement in an organizations, that they have programs to help with relationships, but only straight relationships?

I agree with all of this. I really think that this documentary benefits greatly from having the perspective cult experts explaining how indoctrination occurs. And this so much better edited than The Vow. No random shots of people making avocado toast, no one jucing anything, or checking their Facebook. I don't mind that the talking heads seem more rehearsed (and I'm under no illusion that the sit down interviews in The Vow weren't rehearsed), especially because they're giving us information in much clearer way then almost any part of The Vow. And I also agree that part of The Vow's problem was that it was skirting around issues, I think probably to make Mark specifically look better. Probably because he was the source of a great deal of the footage (although Seduced seems to have gotten their hands on plenty). This does a way better job actually showing you what ESP was and what they taught. The Vow mostly portrayed it as this slightly hippy-dippy organization that suddenly made a right turn into sexual slavery. This makes it clear that those teachings were sown into the fabric of ESP from the beginning. There was no bait and switch like Mark would like to make it seem. Also I don't think the show said this, but he was the source of the footage of the women being dismembered by the drug cartel. He says he was sent it by a reporter friend and then passed it on to Keith. I'm unsure if he knew what it was ultimately used for, but my guess given how high up in ESP he was, is that he did. The Vow completely glossed over the things like this that ESP did. Speaking of Mark, I think the way The Vow portrayed him and ESP in general made me cut him a bit of slack...After episode two of this, he can go fuck himself in the ear. He seems like he likes to portray himself as someone who was perhaps in the wrong because he didn't speak up, but wasn't actively doing anything that bad...this makes it clear he just how involved he was with the BS. Shaming India for taking a job, laughing at Keith's disgusting jokes (It's amazing how you led me there...*vomit*), listening to hours of misogynistic BS with your wife (it is it just me, or does it seem like anytime we get a glimpse of Bonnie she looks uncomfortable?) telling you how you're supposed to cheat, but she can't. For a guy who supposedly doesn't understand machismo, it seems like he accepted a very antiquated version of masculinity pretty easily. Also I would like him to actually admit that he did a lot of what he did to make money. He makes himself seem like everything he did in ESP was this altruistic thing to make the world a better place, and I have no doubt that he did believe that, but he was also making *a lot* of money. At least Sarah fully admits that part of the impetus for her to stay in ESP was being it was how she made money. Sarah may not always come across that great, but I think she's aware that great deal of what she did was selfish. Mark still seems to act like he was a good guy who just suckered by a bad guy. Admit that part of you liked SOP and Jness bullshit on some level, Mark. I'll like you 110% better if you admit that on some level ESP, SOP, Jness all appealed to the devil on your shoulder (I'm guessing this is the case for a lot of men in the group). Admit you aren't completely enlightened and that's part of what sent you down a dark path. I've read that India still talks to Sarah, but doesn't interact with Mark, I wonder why that might be? On a random side note, I can't imagine that given all the singing and dancing done at V-week that there weren't more than a few LGBT people involved in ESP. How did that fit into Keith's very 1950's gender roles? How were queer people treated within the group? It would be interesting if they touched on it. Scientology is a bastion of homophobia so, I'm curious if ESP was as well.

That's the biggest thing with Keith and how I think he got people to follow him, he hit on these tiny kernels of truth and that makes you think all his BS is true. Yes, there are problems in the way we socialized young men, historically. Toxic masculinity and patriarchy are just as toxic to men as they are to women. Double standards that exist about violence towards men from women, and are bad (no one should hit anyone). And Keith did sort of point that out. But his solution to solving that, isn't getting rid of toxic masculinity it's doubling down on it and make women "understand" and just accept it. Which is just absurd. The very idea of calling it the Society of Protectors is vaguely patriarchal. Men shouldn't be expected to be protectors just by virtue of being a man. It also implies that women inherently need to be protected, which is also not true. And don't get me started on the concept that women's "wounds" are nothing compared to men's "wounds." What a load of BS. I don't know what happened to Keith as a kid to make him have this particular screwed up world view, but he needed some serious therapy. He's basically an incel that figured out how to manipulate and brainwash women into having sex with him. Here's a radical idea if we want to stop conflict between men and women, let's stop treating each other like stereotypes. Stop saying men are X and women are Y. A person may be X or Y but often their gender is immaterial to that.

I agree about Mark's reaction. And I actually do feel bad for him. Like I said in another post, I think he's probably a gullible guy, but I also think he's probably a fundamentally decent person too. I think he loves Bonnie and that he's deeply pained to realize what he was a part of hurt her and hurt other women. While comparing Jness and SOP to the Stanford Prison experiment isn't wrong, I think it could also be compared to the Milgram experiment too. Just what are will you do when an authority figure tells you to do something that you think is wrong? Mark talked about not wanting to belittle women during the co-ed SOP sessions, but he did it anyway. It's harder than you would think, just to say no to something like that. I also thought Sarah came off better this episode. I actually kind of laughed at her "commercial" for the sex cult brand scar removing cream. Though I do agree, I really could have don with less shots of her brand in this documentary as a whole. I actually enjoyed...that's not the right word because I had to stop the episode a couple time because Keith's rants made me so angry...I found this episode compelling. I think that getting an inside look into the cult via all this footage is really interesting. I wish they had cut out the padding that was in the other episodes and focused more on that and the people who were actually effected by the cult. It also doesn't seem like they are going to touch on the other heinous stuff Keith has done. I also think it's a little disingenuous to say that they only reason the authorities got involved was because #metoo. When Sarah and Mark first when to the FBI, if they only talked about Sarah's experience then it absolutely was a consensual thing. I'm not saying it was right or brainwashing wasn't involved, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a crime that could actually be prosecuted. It's not until you get into the trafficking aspects, the assaults' and the sex with underage women, where you get into actual crimes. If Mark and Sarah didn't or couldn't (because they had no evidence of it) bring them that information when they went to the FBI, I don't blame the FBI for not being able to do much. But the documentary isn't really touching on those things, so it makes it look like the FBI is acting on the same information that Mark and Sarah first gave them.

I don't necessarily blame Catherine for the way that exchange came across. She was talking to her mother, I imagine she does refer to her second cousin once removed by his first name when talking to family, I would find it weirder if she didn't. That being said, there was no reason to show that phone call, it was just more padding. They could have simply had Catherine say to the camera that she was asking family to contact the Dalai Lama and ask him to renounce Keith since he had met with him. She might be pretentious, but honestly Catherine is the only person I really like in this documentary (at least of the people that have been featured repeatedly). Mark and Sarah seem to pay a lot of lip service to getting people out, but Catherine is the only person who really seems like she's taking any action. Granted I know it's because her daughter was still in it at the time, but she seems to be the only person with any sense of urgency to shutting down an organization that abuses women. Even Frank came across as a bit wishy washy when Catherine tried to pin him down to a time they could meet. All this. The producers seem to think we are super interested in the details of what it took to take ESP down, and it's not remotely as interesting as they think it is. I think the broad strokes of it would be interesting, but they are getting into the minutiae and it's boring. And what's worse is they don't even seem to be paying off the filler with interesting revelations. If anything they cut away from the interesting stuff, back to the filler.

Fair enough. I'm not sure it completely explains his crusade against Keith. What did he see or experience that made him want to expose a former client?

I actually don't dislike either Mark or Sarah. I don't think either one of them are doing themselves any favors in how they are coming across in this documentary, but I don't blame either one of them for getting mixed up in ESP. Mark strikes me as a fairly gullible (the fact he was involved in another cult prior reinforces that) guys who's looking for something meaningful, but probably isn't a bad person. Sarah is definitely someone who's type A, and seems wound tighter than a drum. I've seen things outside of the documentary that paint her in not a great light (about how she treated people at the Vancouver center), but as far as this documentary nothing makes me thinks she's some horrible person either. I also have no issues with Sarah writing a book. Plenty of people share their traumatic experiences. I think that the way she comes off in the documentary makes it seem like her entire life still revolves around what happen to her, and that I don't think is super healthy for her or her family. But it also may just be how this doc is presenting things and not the reality of the situation. Either way I don't blame her or Mark for the content of the doc. My issues with the documentary are with the actual filmmakers. My impression was that this was going to be a fairly in-depth look into ESP, and Keith and what exactly went down. If it was billed as simply being the personal experiences of Sarah and Mark, I would be fine with that. As I said I didn't mind the focus on Mark and Sarah at the beginning because it does work to show how pretty average people get sucked into something like ESP. But it's not the most interesting part of the story, mostly because despite Sarah being branded, they didn't experience the worst of Keith (and it's saying something when branding isn't the worst of it). They keep giving us hints of more interesting parts of the story and then cutting away. I don't get it. Honestly in some ways I think they forgot they were producing a documentary and started to see it as a legal thriller. Will these people who escaped a cult be able to bring it down? Which would be a fascinating movie, but we already know the answer. Also they seem to be missing opportunities to dig deeper into the topic. I will say again, why is no one really talking about Nancy? Why did they bother to show Catherine going to Frank's house if they weren't going to talk to him extensively. They haven't made it 100% clear what Frank's relationship with Keith was. He makes it clear he wasn't a member of ESP, but what did he do for Keith? Did I miss something, because honestly I did fast forward a couple times while Catherine was at his house because I was bored and wanted to get back to the stuff with Toni. My guess is Frank doesn't come across great in interviews and a lot of stuff with him was cut (he seems like a super weird guy). But I really want to know what the impetus was behind him making taking down Keith seemingly his life's mission. I actually did like the stuff with Catherine reflecting on how she was the one who got India involved with ESP. And also her being aware that she was legally implicating India as well and her being okay with sending her own daughter to jail if it meant getting her away from Keith. That's compelling stuff. Watching her use Frank's juicer, not so much. Watching Sarah check her Facebook, also not compelling. Watching Mark make the 90th phone call to someone to try to either get evidence or talk them into leaving, not super compelling either. It wasn't really until last week that I felt like the padding aspect was getting annoying and I think this week was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Actually at first I found the fact that they had all this inside footage courtesy of Mark, really interesting. You don't often get to see inside an organization like ESP like that. But it no longer feels like we're getting an inside perspective, it just seems like we're seeing the same clips now and retreading the same things. As I said in another post, I watched a one hour program on ESP and Keith and I don't see this going any farther in depth despite being nine times as long.

I find it really strange that there seems to be so little information about Nancy out there and just what she did or didn't know about DOS. Granted they were long out of ESP but both Toni and Barbara were her friends/patients, you would think they would have some insight at least into her relationship with Keith. Is she a true believer, or did she just see it as money making scheme? Also you would think some women that got out would have something to say about here and her involvement. Honestly I think Nancy may just be the mastermind of this whole thing in many ways. She didn't get off scot free, but she's in a far better position than Keith at the moment. I think she just may have the higher IQ out of the two of them. Pam seems like she truly drank the Kool-Aid. I would really love to know what Keith does to these women to make them so devoted to him. Two of Pam's top ten life experiences were meeting Keith and having sex with him (EW!). She supposed lured other women (and possibly girls) in for him. Barbara also seems still hung up on him. It seems so strange that all these otherwise intelligent women got suckered into this level of devotion to a short, hairy, conman. I mean I get the whole cult of personality thing...but Keith also doesn't have the greatest personality. Maybe that's it, his lack of personality allows them to project on him whatever they need/want and then he uses it to manipulate them. Maybe that's how he manipulates everyone. You meet this average seeming guy, but everyone tells you he's brilliant and you begin to believe that his total averageness must just be a humble unassuming quality hiding his genus...when it's really hiding a raging narcissist and sexual predator.

I agree completely, and that's why I find the padding so galling. They have a fascinating story here, I found the stuff with Toni this week and Barbara last week captivating. But they keep cutting away from these very interesting stories to show Catherine talking on the phone and Sarah and Mark vowing for the umpteenth time that they're going to get people out (which is laudable but it doesn't need to be reiterated every episode). Obviously the filmmakers didn't know the outcome of the legal side of things while they were filming. So to them it was a mystery, will Keith go to jail, will Catherine get India out...But we do know now (and I would imagine they did while editing) so watching Catherine strategize about it is far less interesting, because we know that Keith does go to jail and India does indeed get out. It isn't a mystery to us what happens, and they had to be aware that no matter what happened it was going to be public knowledge by the time this came out, so I'm not sure why they chose to focus on it. I don't need arty shots of Frank's ear while he's driving, I would like to hear more from Toni and Barbara who had relationships with a psychopath. I would like to hear more about their relationship with Nancy and Nancy's relationship to and with Keith. I mean they have to have some insight into that. Hell, I would love to watch a nine part series about Susan and how she stuck it to Keith. There is so much interesting stuff here to cover, but they continue to focus on the weirdest least interesting stuff.