katha

LOL, yeah Corky said that he and Shirley were talking about the supposed shocking elimination while they were teaching together that morning. They weren't with Mark and Willow. But this is exactly how these rumours are started: Someone mishears something, others repeat it, throw in bias for or against certain pros...voila: There you are with stories like "Derek doesn't do anything this season, it's really Henry who should have all the credit!", or "Henry is just a body double, and then he maliciously tries to pretend that he's doing all the work." Perhaps it was about the two of them not seeing eye to eye. I don't see that what Shirley said was all that negative about Henry, either. Everything in this week's show demonstrated that Derek is into micromanaging and type A control freak tendencies, perhaps Henry felt he couldn't work with that in a productive manner. And yeah, Derek is the competing pro (no matter what you may think about that decision) and might not have liked that Henry (perhaps) made adjustments when he was with Nastia. Sasha seems more willing to just go along with things and not make a fuss.

Well, since we're in the conspiracy thread: But giving immunity to Willow might have spelled trouble for someone else they wanted to keep more? Riker? Rumer? They made it blatantly obvious they want a Riker, Rumer and Nastia final.Or they figured since Willow is the lowest in votes anyway, might as well keep Chris and Robert around for another week, since they are ABC boys after all. And they had their "shocking elimination" headlines for this week, having her swept up in the double elimination next week wouldn't have been as dramatic.

I already talked about that in the episode thread, but I am rather conflicted about what DWTS did this season with Willow. I think she did fabulous, she seemed to love being there and was so adorably excited about everything, I think they asked a lot of Mark with this assignment and he really delivered in teaching her, in coming up with age-appropriate routines and most importantly in taking good care of her and making sure the experience didn't become too stressful and a chore for her. But in many ways this was stacked against her and I think you can question the decision-making by TPTB here: The way Shirley basically confirmed on AB that Mark used stories and characters every week to be able to generate some sort of partner chemistry on the dance floor with her said it all. And you can't do that equally well with all dance styles...thus again creating the image of "Mark dances with little girl" that likely repelled lots of the core audience. Teen stars on this show all had disadvantages going in this direction, but nothing ever this extreme. And they always bring on the youngsters and the youngsters always have problems with fanbases that tweet and instagram, but don't vote. Yet the producers never learn. But things being stacked against them is true for all candidates on this show that aren't brought on as obvious contenders. I guess you could ask the question if you should put a 14 year old in that position. I don't know myself, since I liked watching her a lot and the ugliness at the end doesn't change my enjoyment of her season. The "problem" became to some degree that she started dancing at a level that probably hugely outpaced her voting potential.

I've seen quite a few people here and elsewhere express before this season started and throughout the weeks that Willow had questionable fanbase. Last week I had a bad feeling but was hoping I was wrong, I've seen that sentiment from others as well. Sadly it wasn't a "shocking elimination" IMO. Noah likely gets massive votes for being an inspiration and serving his country, Chris has Bachelor Nation, Robert has the showmance (shippers are obsessed and dedicated voters) and his Shark Tank fans. All three of them also appeal to the core demo of the show in a way Willow really, really doesn't. Perhaps the disconnect between her and the general audience was even bigger than usual because in contrast to the other DWTS teenagers we had before her she is a kid, not a young woman. One problem was also that the fanbase she has didn't understand that they needed to vote for her. It came up again and again in the comments on her social media and made me queasy for her survival chances. They saw she did well with the judges, they loved her dances and watched them and commented to her how great she did and how they adored her, but many of them didn't seem to get how important voting was. Willow urged them, Mark urged them, some of the other fans urged them, but IMO it just seemed that many of her fans were either so young or hadn't watched DWTS before and just didn't really get how it worked (and if they did vote there were probably also not many among them who made 3 million e-mail accounts like stans do.) They just saw that she did very well and that the judges praised her and she kept improving and thought everything was fine. Now they're massively upset, of course.

The "shocking eliminations" on DWTS are never really shocking. Willow this week was always a possibility if you paid attention (I paid attention since I wanted her to stay, sniff). She comes with fragile, young fanbase that probably isn't even that big anyway. Her dance last week was good and wouldn't have been a problem for someone with a more solid following, for her it spelled death. Since at least part of the older/female demo of the general audience as you say probably isn't predisposed to vote for her anyway and another part is just more invested in people like Robert with his showmance and persona, Noah's inspirational story or they're apparently Bachelor Nation crossover demo. She needs an outstanding dance, not "only" a good one, to get votes from the general audience..And who knows, perhaps even that wouldn't have been enough either. I've said last week that I fear for her, I've seen many other people say so as well: If you've watched the show for a while you recognize danger for candidates like that. Chris, Noah and Robert weren't that far away with their scores and they appeal to the core demo in a way Willow doesn't. I was hoping she'd perhaps somehow squeak by and I could watch them dance for another week, but even that tells you everything you need to know already: If not this week, I was preparing for the boot next week. It's been coming, unfortunately. )-:

I don't think anything to do with Willow was malicious in intent, they just craved a young demographic and saw "Hunger Games" and couldn't resist. Excepting this week's mess, I also think the monkeys in charge showed considerable restraint in how they treated Willow: Apart from goading her into talking about being 14 too much, they didn't give her bad packages, everything was cheesy, friendly fun. The judges gave her constructive criticism and mostly fair scores (apart from the first week). The problem is the set-up of the show, you can't guarantee that something messy and upsetting doesn't happen because of the reality tv aspect, the live show, the fact that it's a popularity contest and how that will affect someone so young. They didn't think this through. Like they usually don't think things through. I was glad to have seen her dance, she entertained me very much, but it was a great risk to take. It was a difficult assignment, though Mark made it look easy. He treated her with great consideration and kindness, she was excited to be there and didn't seem overly stressed. Every dance was a work-around to some degree, but IMO every week she was fun and engaging to watch and improving as a dancer. So I think the things they could control, TPTB mostly got right with Willow. The problem is the parts that are out of their hands...they didn't consider that a situation like this could happen. And it's probably irresponsible of them that they didn't consider it and didn't make things clearer to both Willow and her parents. Because outsiders don't know how the mindgames of the show can work. If Willow had been a middling dancer she would have been out in the first weeks with probably not much harm done. But she was very good, dance-wise she was a contender, yet also someone with a questionable young fanbase. It must be pretty crushing to work so hard and know that you're dancing well, better than several others still in the competition, then go out because people apparently didn't like you enough to vote for you.

Yeah...this has the potential to be an epic trainwreck. The hosts haven't exactly shown that they're capable of keeping the show balanced when guests with forceful personalities and opinions are on. Based on their AB appearances, the only Ballas I would trust to give an insightful, measured response to what happened this week is Mark. Let's hope Corky and Shirley prove me wrong...not betting on it, though.

I'm super unhappy that it played out like that, but that's just how the show works, gotta live with it if you don't like it as well. I'm assuming Nastia wasn't the elimination and she got the immunity, and honestly it's better this way. They shouldn't tamper with votes to that degree...if Willow didn't have the votes, she didn't have the votes. She would probably have been gone in next week's double elim anyway, now that we somewhat know that Robert's, Noah's and Chris' fans are powervoting for them. Willow just didn't appeal to the core audience, no matter that she was a much better dancer. It's not a dance contest, we all know that. Sometimes it's easy to forget it in situations like this. And if double elimination was this week, she would have probably been swapped up in that as well, perhaps if this week's scores and votes counted it might have helped. But who even knows, the scores were close again and she just might not have had the votes anyway. And yeah, schedule was mixed around because apparently ABC wanted the anniversary special tomorrow, not because of some dastardly master plan. It is what it is. Heard that she skipped the press line and is still devastated by it all. I hope when she calms down, Mark and in general the adults around her sit her down and explain to her why it happened and that it wasn't that she was somehow inadequate or that she's unlikable or whatever she may think now, that it's just the specific structure of the show, people coming in with bigger fanbases, adults being more likely to vote for other adults etc. and that popularity contests like that aren't a judgement on your worth as a person or even your worth as a dancer. I feel really bad for her.

Well, bummed about that. Enjoyed Willow very much. But we always knew it was a possibility...she's not really one to appeal to the target demographic. Then last week her dance was cute, but not outstanding and since she was good and had good scores the fanbase she has might have been lulled into feeling safe. Should be proud, though, I thought she did great and showed a great attiude. And Mark did fantastic with her, kudos to him and Tom for managing to comfort her there at the end and deescalating the situation somewhat, since she was already so devastated. Though this did to some degree confirm something I was worried about: She might be poised and mature for her age, but she's 14 and the pressures and mindgames of the show might have been too much for her anyway. Mark did his best to shield her and her experience otherwise seemed a happy one...I hope she doesn't take getting eliminated too much to heart and thinks something is wrong with her etc.

Yes, this show is heavily scripted and manipulated. Always has been. And that's not a knock on Derek at all, that's not a knock on any of the pros. They have a good gig with the show, both money and exposure is probably better than anywhere else for dancers. Of course they take the opportunity and try to deal with the BS as best as they can. Being a reality show doesn't mean that everything is pre-scripted, of course the show reacts to voting and to what draws good ratings and attention for them. And the "judging" has to have some relation to what is shown on the dance floor, because otherwise it would be too obvious. But there's lots of wiggle room to "arrange" things anyway. For example, I don't think they throw out votes, I've never believed that theory (I do think season 16 was a legitimate technical screw-up and the "solution" they came up with was terrible). But of course they can steer audience response. By the judging, by judges' comments, by dance order, by the packages they edit together, bonus points, immunity dances. Sometimes it doesn't work, of course. Same with the complaints that some pros have been around forever while others get cut. Or that some get good partners while others don't. Well, obviously that's how it works. They always want Val and Derek to stay in the competition for a long time, so these two always get contenders. The female pros don't have established fanbases like that, so things are more evenhanded there. Tony doesn't draw such attention, but he's a good company man and knows how to handle "older lady" contestants. Mark has a knack for dealing with nervous, conservative, beginner and/or young contestants, so he always gets them. And since his "mad scientist" stuff often draws attention and gets headlines, more often than not his celebs have some dance potential despite their limitations as well. Pros like Dmitry, Damian...they were pleasant, but not memorable enough, so they got cut. But you see how none of the pros or celebs are really "safe" from their storyboarding anyway. For example, I think this season they are going in pretty hard on Derek for (perhaps?) overextending himself, both the packages and the judging haven't always been a bed of roses IMO. Val last season was super irritated with the showmance talk while arguably at the same time participating in said showmance. I think part of that strangeness is that the producers encourage these things and then let the pros take the brunt of the criticism for it. Same with strongly encouraging Mark to do full production, then the judges start complaining about too much production. Or not criticising Riker for his sloppiness or not criticising Allison for arguably not teaching him enough: They want to keep her as a pro and Riker is entertaining, so everything gets a pass (they'll go in on one of the ballroom dances probably, since that's where Allison seems to be the weakest, so as not to make the soft-peddling otherwise too obvious).

Yeah, we may not like it, but I do think putting the focus on the entertainment aspect, production and so on has helped the show survive. It's creaking and struggling now, but that's because it's been 10 years and 20 seasons...it's bound to happen. Keeping it pure ballroom probably wouldn't have worked. People tune in to see stories and spectacle to some degree, not necessarily the best technical dancing. The judging was wonky as usual. I thought Nastia was underscored, it was the best dance of the night IMO. Yeah, yeah, better connection and performance, agree with all of that in general, but I thought for the tango the coldness was appropriate and technique wise she looked the best of the lot, not perfect, but the best. 36, 37 IMO. Riker was overscored again. Yes he's selling everything, but it was again manic and and sloppy. 35? Willow was scored about right IMO. Which after the first week has become a bit of a theme with her, around her over/underscoring is going on...she gets mostly appropriate marks and comments. Perhaps they do have a conscience and don't want to play mindgames with the kid? Yep, legs were wonky, but it was much better than the cha-cha in execution and performance otherwise. Rumer was scored about right. She's a better dancer than Willow, but this was a massive choreo fail on Val's part and didn't show her in the best light at all. Also not much content, too much posing. Chris was overscored. Are they trying to go soft on him to get him out the door? See also: Not putting him in jeopardy to lull the fanbase? Should have been 28, 29. Noah was scored about right. They can't go harsher on him in the comments without riling people up, but he can't do much, so they can't give him more. Robert was scored right. His limits are visible now that the crowd has thinned out.

Man, this show is such a trainwreck. And yeah, it's gotta be somewhat hellish for the dance couples to have everything change on you every five minutes. I know it's always chaotic, but has it ever been this bad? I don't remember it being this bad before.

Her salsa was good, but it wasn't spectacular, so that's just the thing where she might make a single elim, but taking only this week's results could get dicey for her in a double. The only thing "helping" her is that no one was really outstanding this week IMO. As I understood it, though, they're adding next week's scores and votes to this week's, so hopefully she's stronger next week, she will have the power to make more of a case for herself with the general audience. I'm scared for her with this double set-up, but I think two weeks of votes is better for her. Provided she dances well, of course. With her uncertain fanbase even if she survives next week, it will be a constant worry anyway at this point IMO. She has no cushion for being bad, probably hasn't had one for some time. Even doing well but not outstanding like this week is a problem for her.

I agree with this in theory, but that's not the narrative the show is pushing. Mark isn't being set up as the "new leading man" of DWTS. He's not talking about how he needs to win again, how it's his time. And the show isn't doing anything of the sort for him either. Having his two wins, no matter how long ago, also takes pressure off in that regard IMO. But it's happening for Val, that's the story they are creating for him. They do seem to imply that he's "overdue" and that with Rumer it's "his season". And Rumer is supremely capable, so it should be doable (yes, I know, other factors come into it as well...). Willow, for all her talent and potential...her youth just comes with severe constraints and while he's been doing excellent with her, you see the work-around in about every dance. I think the minute they told Mark he got the 14 year old he knew that he wasn't winning anything this season (or that it was highly, highly unlikely), which isn't a bad thing since I think in some ways it's allowed him to relax and just enjoy teaching Willow and creating for her without anybody expecting a win like they do with Nastia and Rumer. OTOH the narrative with Val and Rumer is that they are a super couple and should be able to win it all, and perhaps Val does feel the pressure of those expectations?

Thing is, I think the way Mark uses concept and production this season mostly enhances Willow's dancing. I agree that it's a double-edged sword and that he was on the brink of "too much" one or two times already, though IMO no shark-jumping so far. But then I'm someone who doesn't believe that "do pure dance" is something that would serve her all that well. Perhaps in dances like quickstep or jive or even jazz, but in about everything else there's the risk that it will look like the cha-cha: A middle schooler dancing at a school dance with her babysitter/chaperone. It diminished her and together with going first was probably to blame for her too low scores. It allowed the judges to brush her aside and not take her seriously. And yeah, he's using costumes and production but apart from the contempo where admittedly it was a lot of staging and troupe, it's been Willow and him doing the dances (the battle with the cards last week was also a Willow solo, so focus was on her). And technique and dance content isn't being neglected, she's doing a lot every week and she's constantly improving on it. The narratives he's creating for her also give her the opportunity to show what she can do as a performer and IMO she's been very engaging and powerful so far. Whereas with "Willow as Willow" as some are demanding, you run the risk of her looking like the kid she is, losing the authority she has shown in various characters and being again forgettable like the first week. It wouldn't be bad to go without troupe for the next dance or two, agree on that. But totally stripped down? Nah, I don't think that would help Willow at all. I also think it's probably not realistic to demand that from them when about everybody else has been using production just as much. The show is pushing the pros in that direction hardcore, is my suspicion. Would love to see her in the finals, but I fear for her vote-wise. Even at this point in the comp she's probably the one celeb who is really going almost only on her own dancing now and how many votes that brings to her, her fanbase is very questionable. Luckily for her she's improving rapidly, she's dancing well and she's got Mark to do memorable stuff for her (which IMO he has to do as a strategy...nothing worse for Willow than to be pleasant but forgettable like on the first week). If that's enough, who knows?

So that was meh overall. I wish they didn't do a double elimination next week, I'm more than ready to be rid of Chris but like everybody else and would like to see them all dance for a week longer. With her fragile young fanbase, I'll just expect that Willow is getting eliminated so if she doesn't go home it will be a pleasant surprise... Also thought this week's harping on connection with Nastia was stupid, it suited the dance. There were some places where she looked awkward, why not more comments on that instead? Willow was great, I thought. And Mark makes it seem like a breeze coming up with all these age-appropriate dances for her (particularly the latin ones), without it turning into kindergarten. Rumer was underwhelming and the choreo wasn't up to snuff IMO. Perhaps it was the song, but it didn't work for me. Riker was energetic but sloppy...as always. Also thought he was overscored...that tied with having him in jeopardy again makes me question how many votes he is getting. He is someone who has a very vocal online following that about drowns out everybody else's, but do they all vote? Perhaps it's a Sadie situation where they just use him to mask the actual state of things, but together with him getting overscored two weeks in a row. I don't know, it's all total speculation on everybody anyway. They should also get consistent about assignments...either everybody can change songs, dance styles etc. as they please, or no one gets to do that. Or get more transparent how many times a season each pair has the option etc. Thought the scoring for the team dances was fair and cut down on potential melodrama about "OMG! those pairs are disadvantaged now for the double elim!" and "OMG! Derek didn't even rehearse with the team! Curse on Derek for letting the team down and/or Sharna/Kym/Mark for doing a crappy job!" And I know online numbers are not fool-proof evidence when it comes to voting, but on the DWTS youtube page and on facebook Patti had the least views/likes this week. Youtube views are fluctuating more from week to week, but on facebook for a few weeks now it's been Riker, Noah, Willow, Nastia and Rumer in some constellation leading the pack with some distance. I don't think this is conclusive or anything, but I do think it shows trends.

To be fair to Derek, he doesn't say that Mark changed the concept, he says the rest of the team did. So it's more like he's throwing everybody not named Nastia and Derek under the bus. (-; Mark just explained to a very pushy and rude Derek stan that they all made that decision and that Kym, Sharna and him are working hard on it. Apparently production didn't want the original concept. (OT: But boy, being a celeb on SM must be so tiresome. I wouldn't have the patience for it.) And well, Derek's not around. If the rest of the team notices that something's not working, they can't rely on him to fix it. They have to do it themselves and then Derek has to adapt to it. And that situation is on Derek. He said that he could do two full-time jobs at once, now he has to deal with the consequences. Oh, and to be clear: I was joking. I don't think there was anything wrong with what Derek wrote. (Though it is perhaps worded in an unfortunate way.) Agree that the atmosphere in some fan corners is super heated and unpleasant. And predictably some reactions to what he's written are OTT. But that's not on him.

Yes, that was my impression as well. Wade was determined that someone was going to do it, and the "lucky chosen ones" were Nastia and Derek. I know that Willow wanted to do Alice and wanted to do the Tim Burton version because she thought it was "edgier" LOL. Which, I can see that...she's a bit of a hipster, with her hats, and her fashion and music choices and her Charles Bukowski quote on her instagram. Of course Mark was in heaven that he could be the nightmare bunny, heh. Riker got what he wanted. Chris' song choice, dance style, costume, everything OTOH was super unflattering IMO. Yeah, he's not good, but all these things really emphasized that. I mean, in season 18 some couples also had stuff foisted on them, so that's nothing new. But since the discussion was about contestant's choices...my impression was that it wasn't a level playing field in that regard.

But could they all choose? This is something I don't quite get. Because it didn't seem to me that Nastia had much of a choice at all, she was just stuck with the cheese. And others were stuck with characters that didn't quite suit them either. I also think that all the pros were basically railroaded into using loads of production because it's Disney night and the show wants it that way. Same with the use of the troupe, at this point I suspect that there's a certain amount of dance time they have in their contracts so they get shoved into the routines no matter what. And then some get called out for it by the judges, others aren't. Some get called out for technique issues, others aren't. It's all inconsistent because they're following a script to "shake things up" or to "make it more exciting" or whatever. This week was really obvious about those machinations IMO.

Yes. I don't know what it is, though? It's all very...hard? I don't even know how to describe it. Like he thinks there's a certain style that suits Rumer and he has to stick to it. So he thinks she's "edgy" and "fierce", so everything needs to be going in that direction. Or perhaps that's just an outsider's perspective. Perhaps it's also the added pressure because he knows that he's got a great partner and his chances of winning the MBT are very good. At this point Rumer is probably the frontrunner, or at least she's perceived that way, and Len declared it "his season".

Oh, I think this week was also a bit of a showcase how obviously scripted this show is. The marks do roughly correspond to what the dancers put out there, but there are clear narratives they follow. Last week Rumer's waltz "wasn't enough waltz" and she was marked down for it. This week it didn't matter that there wasn't enough samba in the samba, it was her turn to take the lead in the scoring and that was that. It's a bit of a hoot how transparent it all is, to be honest. And I hope Chris goes next. It was time for Suzanne as well, so I was okay with her out this week. But Chris and Witney at this point are just unpleasant to watch. The Bachelor fans are keeping him in, I hope they don't anymore. IMO both Chris and Witney don't make the greatest impression in this partnership and they're obviously both over it.

So, no surprise after going crazy with her contemporary scoring, Willow's scores have come back down to earth. It's the dance style, they always overdo it there. I thought her scores were fine, but Rumer, Nastia and Riker were overscored. Or perhaps I might see the argument for Riker, he really sold that stuff. But Rumer's samba wasn't very samba-y, though entertaining. And Nastia's jazz didn't do much for me. Though they performed it well. All 9s for Nastia and Rumer would have been enough IMO. Loved the whimsy of Willow's dance and how she's so totally committed in every performance, that was also lovely flowy choreography, though Mark's costume was indeed terrifying. Suitable for the theme and it was great in that context, but terrifying.

I think it's an agree to disagree thing, but I just don't think the scoring is ever absolute, even amongst contenders. Last season a ten for Alfonso wasn't the same as a ten for Bethany, Janel and Sadie. Otherwise the three women would have never gotten any. A ten for Amy and James or even Candace meant a different thing than a ten for Meryl. And at this point Willow is doing content that is comparable to the frontrunners, doing it well and she is improving every week. I'd say dance-wise she is a contender and there's nothing wrong with the judges saying so. There are several contenders this season. Her fanbase is questionable vote-wise, because it's very young, but the performances she's put out there have been very impressive so far IMO. Janel and Bethany got 40ies on their jazz routines last season, then their scores normalized the next week with more structured dances that had rules. James got a 40 for his contemporary in season 18, everyone freaked out, the next week his scores normalized as he had a ballroom dance. Jazz and contemporary for the better dancers on this show get scored on the principle "it looked cool, you performed it well, here have a ten!". That's it. It's ridiculous, but obviously they don't know any better, so this practice is here to stay. Same will happen with Willow. She's got a foxtrot, she'll be in hold, there are rules she'll have to follow, technique she'll have to master, her scores will normalize. It's nothing new, that's just the nonsensical way they do contempo and jazz scoring on this show.

But the contestants aren't being directly compared to one another, are they? And IMO that is fair to a certain extent on a show like that. Those 7s and 8s for Patti, Noah and Suzanne also wouldn't ever stand up in "absolute terms" against Riker, Rumer and Nastia. With Willow this is the case as well, even though to a lesser extent. I think people tend to forget that a bit because she's young and looks outwardly comparable to the three frontrunners in abilities. But she's over a decade younger, she hasn't got an adult's body yet and also doesn't have the strength and quality of movement that goes with it. They get scored according to the expectations the judges have about their abilities. So I do think in that context it's okay to be a bit more lenient with Willow than with Nastia, Riker and Rumer. She's got some limitations both when it comes to performance and when it comes to physical abilities that go with her youth and that she probably can't do anything about (like youthful projection, not always having her limbs under control, lack of strength, moving like a kid...because she's a kid). I mean, of course the judges shouldn't get as indulgent as with Patti or Suzanne, but IMO it's okay to say "we're a bit more forgiving than with Nastia, Rumer and Riker." So I do think it's fair that for Willow to earn an 8,9 it takes a bit less than for the leading troika and that the judges keep in mind that she comes with certain limitations that can't be trained away. Or at least it's a situation where Mark would potentially risk her well-being through injuries etc. if he tried to coach her like he would an adult, because she doesn't have an adult's body yet. She also doesn't have an adult's coping mechanisms in place yet, I don't care how poised she acts in interviews. So there are also limits when it comes to applying pressure on her that he has to keep in mind. Not to mention the pearl-clutching that would start if he tried to get her to perform like a woman.

While I don't disagree that it was a lot of staging for Willow's dance (staging that suited the theme IMO) and understand when people criticize it for being too much troupe and props (I was fine with it. If they do things like that every week, it's a different matter, but for a one-off telling the story of the books it was brilliant.), I do think some of it might have been camera work? They seem to have problems with that the last few seasons even if there are only two people on the dance floor, and in bigger numbers with the troupe the camera gets lost sometimes. So it might have looked different live for the audience and the judges.