katha

Paul Kirkland, Sharna's boyfriend, will be in the freestyle as well. It's Mark, Paul, Lindsay, Jenna with them...representing the people helping Noah during his recovery or something like that. Travis Garland and BC Jean (Mark's girlfriend) will sing their freestyle song. Then on the results show on Tuesday they will do a dance together with Amy and Derek. And Alfonso and Sadie will do a dance together, but also partly with Witney and Mark? That Mark and Witney choreographed for them. It's a lot of collaboration, which is nice to see IMO. Gotta say, I'm really interested in what Riker will do. There's been barely anything released about his freestyle. Allison just said that it will be "big"...which can be great or totally backfire.

I know the show usually does random nonsense, but I really feel that establishing some kind of criteria for how Noah would be judged, giving some kind of explanation to the audience might have helped. They had to have known that he'll go far. A lot of dance professionals have said that what he does is very difficult, because of the severe balance issues, shifting weight etc. has to be totally adjusted for him. And I believe them since I have no knowledge in the matter and it does look challenging, so I've no problem that the scoring takes that into consideration. Going down and giving him 5s, 6s also would be counterproductive in the sense that it would only enrage people on his behalf and make them vote even harder. But it has to be possible to establish in some way that Riker and Rumer are just much better dancers and are doing a lot more of the required content (though of course that is not Noah's fault). That's what the judges are for, at least in theory. Then the public can make it up in votes if they want to. But in the semifinals he had practically the same scores as the three others. I don't see why they couldn't have given him 8s or something?

I think this season both Derek and Nastia didn't get favourable edits. But I agree, it's not like this is a first with the show. Perhaps it's not something that's been done too often to Derek and his partners in the last few seasons and so it might be more noticeable? Val, Maks, Karina, Peta, Cheryl, Mark, Tony...basically all of the long-time pros have had their fair share of hatchet job packages and judges' ire aimed against them. It comes with the territory. It's not a fair competition, it's a cheesy reality show that also features dancing. The way you break down the track record of the gymnasts does put it in perspective. Arguably Shawn also won it on the freestyle in her first season: Cheryl flubbed hers, Mark's was a hit. So they weren't on track to win that season, they were in striking distance and were able to capitalize on Gilles and Cheryl showing weakness when it mattered most.

To stay with the dreaded West Side Story comparison: Both Maks and Val have admitted that they tend to get too invested in a season and that this can backfire on them. Val with his "I suck out the fun for the celeb every season" just a few weeks ago. The other side can be that things get a bit too remote and distant, which might make a partnership less compelling. Perhaps that's a danger when you're more reserved like Derek seems to be. It's a fine line: The experience in the show bubble appears to me like a mixture of summer camp and Stockholm Syndrome. If you don't get along, it becomes hell. If you do get along, you bond fast. The celebs don't know that, the pros have to negotiate how to approach it. I don't think there's one perfect solution, or one right way to do it. Perhaps the producers keep this in mind when doing assignments as well? I know we all complain that many of the pros get a certain type again and again, I'm sure this plays a role. Since I pay most attention there, I see it with Mark: He gets the "babysitter" assignments, not only the young ones, but often the ones where there might be concerns that for whatever reason the contestant could be overwhelmed or nervous or in general might need extra help in navigating the show experience. Same with Tony and the older ladies. So why pros have a certain general "style" of partnership also depends on the partners they get assigned.

The show has been going on for 20 seasons. Even at the beginning, they weren't exactly pulling A-listers. After 10 years I'm sure they sometimes have difficulty getting people, particularly since the celebs at this point know what a risk it can be, that you have to put in a lot of work, that there's a chance of public humiliation. So consequently the pros who had staying power, who proved to have a knack for the format of the show (not necessarily tied to technical excellence and great competition results. As everybody says: This isn't Blackpool.), they became as much the focus as the stars. Sometimes moreso. I don't think you can really change that anymore. And since the pros are stars in their own right to some degree now, with that come stans and haters. Multiply that with the reality show aspect always stirring up some "rivalries" and "controversies" and the general echo chamber that is social media and you've got a lot of ugliness on your hands.

Yeah, they don't usually do it to Derek and his partners, but the edits that Nastia got and the judges' comments at a certain point just became piling on and ramming a certain narrative into the brains of the general audience: Nastia Liukin, cold fish. That undermined her dance performances, but they also let the implication creep in that she is somehow deficient as a human being IMO. It went on all season and at a certain point they decided that she wouldn't get a redemption arc. When Derek got injured and had "reduced value" for the show? When she refused to give the producers the drama in the packages they wanted?

The show must be such a headache for the pros. The producers bait you into giving them good soundbites, into saying something negative. Then you're hung out to dry and have to deal with the following shitstorm. I agree that what he said was what he perceived as honest critique, not some malicious slam. Even the rumoured, longer "worse" version of what he supposedly said and was edited out that is floating around social media is blunt, but you can certainly see his point up to a degree. I think Derek learned with the "demented lines" thing that you can't ever go that honest on the show, or if you do expect the backlash. Val's been on for 8 seasons now, he should know how it works. Or if you want to be honest and real, expect the reactions and don't walk it back. OTOH, I understand that he doesn't want this to jeopardize his and Rumer's chances. What to do? And hearing Derek talk about it did imply IMO that he was perhaps a bit hurt by it, and he usually doesn't admit to such things, he's usually all diplomatic, so that might play into Val's reaction here as well. The ones who are having a laugh about it are the producers, of course. I'm sure they think all this melodrama and outrage is just the best thing ever. This show is such a trainwreck.

None of the pros can single-handedly carry a partner all the way IMO. If the celeb doesn't start pulling their own weight vote-wise with their own fanbase and the general audience, at some point it will give out. Also not a fan of blaming the pros if things don't work out. Personally, I think it's rarely if ever the pros' fault in the sense that they totally screw over a celeb out of their chances. I can't remember instances of that on the show. What happens, because they are human, is that sometimes they misjudge things or a dance doesn't work out like it should or a partnership for some reason is not a good fit. It's very difficult and taxing to get everything 100% right all the time in a stressful DWTS season. Yes, Derek may have overextended himself, but he obviously wanted to be part of the anniversary season at all costs and then unfortunately he got injured on top of it all. It didn't work out like he wanted perhaps, but it's easy to be all "I told you so" in hindsight. He's a workaholic, he thought he could do it and tried his best.

I think everyone knows this on some level, but when it's like this season where IMO the machinations are more obvious, I understand that people get more frustrated with it. I'm on record saying that I don't believe they throw out votes, but if they did, no one could stop them. It's not a dance competition, it's a reality show, they aren't bound by any rules and regulations. If they think kicking out a dancer brings more ratings and creates a better storyline, they can do that without repercussions. They can and do manipulate and storyboard the outcomes they want. And well...it's business for them, they do what they think is in the show's and ABC's best interests. It's not about treating the contestants fairly or being just.

Well, this sucks. Didn't expect it to be Nastia, but we knew that Noah wasn't going home and it was going to be one of the better dancers. I did think the narrative they created for her wasn't great, and even though she was a muted performer and didn't ever really open up (not with Sasha either IMO), the way they skated towards implying something was wrong with her as a person (at least that's the impression I had), it did rub me the wrong way. The set-up with first Derek's two jobs, then the two-partner arrangement probably hurt her as well. She did great, though, given the rather difficult circumstances she had to deal with. And I thought it was cool that she told the producers to shove it when they were pushing for "emotional reactions". And I agree that the judges contributed to the situation with Noah. I know it's difficult to score him, but the way he's getting basically the same scores as three much, much better dancers contributed to this. Yes, he has the votes. But would it have killed them to stay with 7s and 8s? They've made themselves totally obsolete with the way they have been scoring him. Bristol Palin didn't get super scores, she progressed on votes. They acknowledged that she did improve and even that some of her dances were reasonably watchable and that she wasn't the trainwreck everyone thought she would be (thanks, Mark!), but they didn't pretend that she was a great dancer or as good as the other contestants. As for the male pros: At this point I think perhaps it would be a good idea to get a rotation in? Have Val, Tony, Derek, Mark sit out one season. Or split it: Derek and Tony sit out one season, Mark and Val the next. They have all been around forever. They are all fantastic at their jobs and I don't begrudge them their spots with the show and I can see why the producers bring them back again and again (even if rivaling fanbases don't see it that way...), but perhaps in that way there would be more breathing room. Or if not, at least shake up the partner assignments a bit. Give Val a total beginner, something he hasn't had since his first season, I think? I think it would be super interesting to see him teach someone from scratch. Please no one conservative and/or super young for Mark. And so on. But of course that won't happen.

I think it comes back to the show having questionable judgement about having her on at all. I'm sure a whole lot of people around her were expecting her to get the boot before the finals due to her shaky fanbase and her not being very appealing to the main audience, including Mark (though he may have been surprised it happened that week and not a week later or so), but have been too kind to tell her so. And since she did work very hard and danced better than Robert, Noah and Chris and IMO had potential to improve even more and get on par in some aspects to the top three (you saw that in the salsa where for me she rightly won against Riker because she had more control and nuance, Allison seemingly doesn't know how to teach such things), perhaps she doesn't understand how that wasn't enough. She's a kid and seemed really crushed to get eliminated, I don't begrudge her feeling good about herself and her dancing this season. She has much to be proud of. And she's been nothing but supportive towards the other contestants, she probably just didn't think through what blurting that out might imply.

Yah. That's reality TV for you. That proposal might have gotten Noah into the finals, even moreso since his scores are practically on par with the others. Tend to agree that Riker or Rumer seem most at risk. Riker had the better, more memorable dances IMO, Rumer was very good, but perhaps not "flashy" enough with such an emotional manipulation hammer going against her. Or it will be Riker's fanbase giving out? I don't think it'll be Nastia, but who even knows at this point? Perhaps the three best dancers will pull through, I hope so, but it might be difficult. That's just the nature of the show, it's not a dance contest. No matter how irritating that is when you're mostly watching for the dancing.

How about that fabulous RomCom staple: Once you've found twu! wuv! it's totally acceptable to lie, cheat and betray your siginificant other because they're obviously boring, bad for you, not your soulmate, take your pick. (Looking at you, Sleepless in Seattle. I know you're trying to tell me that Meg Ryan's creepy stalking is really totally charming...yeah,no.)

Oh, oh...I want to play, too! I liked Brenner. I thought he made a great addition to the cast and was sad that he came in so late in the run of the show and there wasn't time to show more development with him. He got a very good character arc anyway, even though it was rushed. Much better than some of the other characters who had been on for much longer. Never did much like Hathaway, either. And Abby was alright, but the way the show started to focus on her endless misery did grow tiresome. Sam was cool, though. I liked that she was cold and hard, it made sense for her life circumstances and not every female character needs to be open, friendly and vulnerable to be relatable. Benton was my fave. It was awesome that he was just straightforward in his ambition, that he wasn't particularly nice and that his good qualities were seldom used as excuses for his bad sides. And his relationship with Carter was one of the absolute highlights of the show. Never did start hating Carter, either. He grew annoying towards the end of his first run and then when he came back at the end he had considerably improved again. But even at his worst he behaved in character IMO.

I find this season weirdly joyless. Has been so from the start IMO. I don't know if it's the super disorganized way everything plays out, the manipulations being more clumsy and obvious or the contestants. It's off for me. Agree that three of the final four dance well and it seems relatively open, but it doesn't entertain me in the way other seasons have. Noah, I admire him but his dancing isn't good and doesn't interest me. Riker...has Allison. Though he is a good performer. Rumer doesn't have enough of a spark for me and I've had issues with practically all of Val's choreo this season. Nastia is great at the technical side, but kind of muted as a performer and IMO not all of the material she's been given plays to her strengths either. There's nothing outstanding or sparkling this season for me. Willow's elimination made me sad, but even when she was there the show was kinda...off for me. I did sorely miss her this week, tough. IMO Robert, Noah and Chris didn't offer much and since they made up half of the dancing it dragged the show down even further. It's all been very muted IMO. I don't enjoy this season like I have the last two, even though I agree that the winners were way more predictable and at least in theory it wasn't as "exciting".

Nastia isn't my cup of tea, but I don't think it has been just this week with a less than favourable wind blowing their way. Some of their packages didn't paint Derek's double duty in such a great light IMO, the judges to me have been getting into her "lack of emotion" in ways that skated borderline on saying something is wrong with her as a person and this week's package was basically the producers getting back at her for not giving them what they want. At least it reads that way to me. Don't know. And now she has to deal with Derek's injury situation and the set-up with Sasha. I know she's highly skilled and if anyone can deal with all of this it's her, but at this point I feel bad for her.

I agree with that. We saw these same problems with Meryl and Charlie. They had their media scripts and trotted them out in every interview. Charlie also didn't provide any kind of "drama". Meryl had Maks, a seasoned reality tv performer, drag her off-script in interviews and provide the entertainment in her packages. I know many think it was too much about him and I agree up to a point, but one reason for that was that Meryl wasn't all that different from Nastia as a persona. She was more vibrant as a dance performer, though. Willow perhaps ran into the same problem: She was dancing well, she was having fun with Mark and there were zero conflicts, she was genuinely enthusiastic and happy all the time. There's not much soap opera potential in that and the show thrives on soap opera.

Meh. Not objective, because I'm still a bit salty about Willow last week, but still. Nastia's jive was nice. Don't know if it was a 40, but since the scores are one major WTH this season anyway (more so than usual IMO), who cares. Paso didn't work for me. I did get a kick out of Derek's ridiculous get-up, though. But as an hommage to Mark it wasn't committed enough to crazy IMO lol. There should have been face paint, wigs, masks. And he was able to breathe through his nose. He could have applied himself more there. (-; I thought both Riker and Rumer were overscored. Riker's jazz could have been a 40, but they were way too nice about that VW. Rumer was good in both dances, not sure they were perfect score worthy. Still not feeling Val's choreography (though better than the last two weeks), I don't know what it is with him this season. And the scoring here does make me go hmm about how many votes Riker and Rumer are getting. Is it just a smokescreen by the show, or are there problems with turning out votes? Chris, Noah and Robert all weren't very good and it really showed that they are out of their depth dancing-wise at this point. Since it's not a dance comp, though, what can you do? They aren't very entertaining at this point either, at least not for me. With Tommy last season and Patti this season, you had at least performers who could do something on that dancefloor that sparked, even though it wasn't the dancing. Don't get that from these three.

LOL, yeah Corky said that he and Shirley were talking about the supposed shocking elimination while they were teaching together that morning. They weren't with Mark and Willow. But this is exactly how these rumours are started: Someone mishears something, others repeat it, throw in bias for or against certain pros...voila: There you are with stories like "Derek doesn't do anything this season, it's really Henry who should have all the credit!", or "Henry is just a body double, and then he maliciously tries to pretend that he's doing all the work." Perhaps it was about the two of them not seeing eye to eye. I don't see that what Shirley said was all that negative about Henry, either. Everything in this week's show demonstrated that Derek is into micromanaging and type A control freak tendencies, perhaps Henry felt he couldn't work with that in a productive manner. And yeah, Derek is the competing pro (no matter what you may think about that decision) and might not have liked that Henry (perhaps) made adjustments when he was with Nastia. Sasha seems more willing to just go along with things and not make a fuss.

Well, since we're in the conspiracy thread: But giving immunity to Willow might have spelled trouble for someone else they wanted to keep more? Riker? Rumer? They made it blatantly obvious they want a Riker, Rumer and Nastia final.Or they figured since Willow is the lowest in votes anyway, might as well keep Chris and Robert around for another week, since they are ABC boys after all. And they had their "shocking elimination" headlines for this week, having her swept up in the double elimination next week wouldn't have been as dramatic.

I already talked about that in the episode thread, but I am rather conflicted about what DWTS did this season with Willow. I think she did fabulous, she seemed to love being there and was so adorably excited about everything, I think they asked a lot of Mark with this assignment and he really delivered in teaching her, in coming up with age-appropriate routines and most importantly in taking good care of her and making sure the experience didn't become too stressful and a chore for her. But in many ways this was stacked against her and I think you can question the decision-making by TPTB here: The way Shirley basically confirmed on AB that Mark used stories and characters every week to be able to generate some sort of partner chemistry on the dance floor with her said it all. And you can't do that equally well with all dance styles...thus again creating the image of "Mark dances with little girl" that likely repelled lots of the core audience. Teen stars on this show all had disadvantages going in this direction, but nothing ever this extreme. And they always bring on the youngsters and the youngsters always have problems with fanbases that tweet and instagram, but don't vote. Yet the producers never learn. But things being stacked against them is true for all candidates on this show that aren't brought on as obvious contenders. I guess you could ask the question if you should put a 14 year old in that position. I don't know myself, since I liked watching her a lot and the ugliness at the end doesn't change my enjoyment of her season. The "problem" became to some degree that she started dancing at a level that probably hugely outpaced her voting potential.

I've seen quite a few people here and elsewhere express before this season started and throughout the weeks that Willow had questionable fanbase. Last week I had a bad feeling but was hoping I was wrong, I've seen that sentiment from others as well. Sadly it wasn't a "shocking elimination" IMO. Noah likely gets massive votes for being an inspiration and serving his country, Chris has Bachelor Nation, Robert has the showmance (shippers are obsessed and dedicated voters) and his Shark Tank fans. All three of them also appeal to the core demo of the show in a way Willow really, really doesn't. Perhaps the disconnect between her and the general audience was even bigger than usual because in contrast to the other DWTS teenagers we had before her she is a kid, not a young woman. One problem was also that the fanbase she has didn't understand that they needed to vote for her. It came up again and again in the comments on her social media and made me queasy for her survival chances. They saw she did well with the judges, they loved her dances and watched them and commented to her how great she did and how they adored her, but many of them didn't seem to get how important voting was. Willow urged them, Mark urged them, some of the other fans urged them, but IMO it just seemed that many of her fans were either so young or hadn't watched DWTS before and just didn't really get how it worked (and if they did vote there were probably also not many among them who made 3 million e-mail accounts like stans do.) They just saw that she did very well and that the judges praised her and she kept improving and thought everything was fine. Now they're massively upset, of course.

The "shocking eliminations" on DWTS are never really shocking. Willow this week was always a possibility if you paid attention (I paid attention since I wanted her to stay, sniff). She comes with fragile, young fanbase that probably isn't even that big anyway. Her dance last week was good and wouldn't have been a problem for someone with a more solid following, for her it spelled death. Since at least part of the older/female demo of the general audience as you say probably isn't predisposed to vote for her anyway and another part is just more invested in people like Robert with his showmance and persona, Noah's inspirational story or they're apparently Bachelor Nation crossover demo. She needs an outstanding dance, not "only" a good one, to get votes from the general audience..And who knows, perhaps even that wouldn't have been enough either. I've said last week that I fear for her, I've seen many other people say so as well: If you've watched the show for a while you recognize danger for candidates like that. Chris, Noah and Robert weren't that far away with their scores and they appeal to the core demo in a way Willow doesn't. I was hoping she'd perhaps somehow squeak by and I could watch them dance for another week, but even that tells you everything you need to know already: If not this week, I was preparing for the boot next week. It's been coming, unfortunately. )-:

I don't think anything to do with Willow was malicious in intent, they just craved a young demographic and saw "Hunger Games" and couldn't resist. Excepting this week's mess, I also think the monkeys in charge showed considerable restraint in how they treated Willow: Apart from goading her into talking about being 14 too much, they didn't give her bad packages, everything was cheesy, friendly fun. The judges gave her constructive criticism and mostly fair scores (apart from the first week). The problem is the set-up of the show, you can't guarantee that something messy and upsetting doesn't happen because of the reality tv aspect, the live show, the fact that it's a popularity contest and how that will affect someone so young. They didn't think this through. Like they usually don't think things through. I was glad to have seen her dance, she entertained me very much, but it was a great risk to take. It was a difficult assignment, though Mark made it look easy. He treated her with great consideration and kindness, she was excited to be there and didn't seem overly stressed. Every dance was a work-around to some degree, but IMO every week she was fun and engaging to watch and improving as a dancer. So I think the things they could control, TPTB mostly got right with Willow. The problem is the parts that are out of their hands...they didn't consider that a situation like this could happen. And it's probably irresponsible of them that they didn't consider it and didn't make things clearer to both Willow and her parents. Because outsiders don't know how the mindgames of the show can work. If Willow had been a middling dancer she would have been out in the first weeks with probably not much harm done. But she was very good, dance-wise she was a contender, yet also someone with a questionable young fanbase. It must be pretty crushing to work so hard and know that you're dancing well, better than several others still in the competition, then go out because people apparently didn't like you enough to vote for you.

Yeah...this has the potential to be an epic trainwreck. The hosts haven't exactly shown that they're capable of keeping the show balanced when guests with forceful personalities and opinions are on. Based on their AB appearances, the only Ballas I would trust to give an insightful, measured response to what happened this week is Mark. Let's hope Corky and Shirley prove me wrong...not betting on it, though.