Mcolleague

Hmm maybe intent is not the right word. I think Carver assumed the audience would sympathize with Sam and blame Dean. He thinks that Sam is right, Dean is wrong - and he didn't expect or understand so many people siding with Dean and being mad at Sam. To him, this is the wrong reaction (to me, this is because of his bad writing but whatever). He assumed we would agree that what Sam said in The Purge was a "harsh truth". That's clearly how he sees it, that what was said there was truth - and he keeps reiterating this in interviews, Dean was selfish, Dean brought this upon himself. Instead, a large portion of the audience had a WTF this is utter BS reaction to that conversation - since as you say, noone was likely to forget about the forty years in hell. I mean, Sam WAS wronged and deserved some sympathy, I don't even disagree with that. I think Carver just really overestimated how far that sympathy would extend. Also he is just so completely out of sync with how most viewers see Dean, and Sam was Carver's mouthpiece, so, some collateral damage there. As for the rest of the season, Dean did a lot of very unsympathetic things too IMO, way more than Sam. Letting Gadreel possess Sam, Kevin dying, all the violence later even towards women, and his declaration of a Deantatorship - I think these were unambiguously very unsympathetic things. Dean is just a really resilient character with the fans when it comes to the character assassination, partly because Jensen is an appealing actor, and partly just because the fandom was so starved for a Dean mytharc by this point that everyone was too busy cheering to care what he did lol. Anyway, we are not really disagreeing on too much, AwesomeO4000. I don't like Carver any better than you do, and he hasn't done either character any favours.

Exactly. This is my problem with the commentary. I think Carver does have a (vague) vision of sorts - the flip side to Kripke's story arc of choosing family (i.e. the extremes of toxic codependency, complete with horrible consequences or whatever... to be resolved by finding some kind of *healthy balance* by the end of his three year arc). I don't even hate the idea itself. Yes love for each other saved the world that one time, but is it always the right choice? It could have been interesting, but it was just soooo badly executed, since it was basically a sudden unexplained 180 (family = BAD now!! Leaving your brother to die = maturity!!). *eyeroll* It isn't connecting with the audience, so he keeps using PR opportunities as a forum to justify his crappy writing. Just, no. What he intended to write? That's not what happened onscreen. It's like, he wanted the audience to sympathize with Sam and blame Dean this season, that's the story he wanted to tell - but a lot of the audience still adores Dean and blames Sam. And now he is just stamping his feet and stubbornly insisting that we are watching it wrong, when the truth is that he is just not a very good writer and didn't get his point across. /end rant. I turned into a super bitter Dean!girl lol. It's not even that I need validation from his commentary or anything like that. Just that this is making me quite pessimistic about the direction of next season, and I was actually excited for once after so many years. Ugh.

Next season Sam is also going to go dark to save Dean. I will be patiently waiting for the Season 10 DVD extras, where every writer and cast member calls Sam selfish too. Oh wait. /bitter

I am only less annoyed about this DVD extra because I was so pissed off by all the Season 8 commentary that expectations were super low. This whole thing comes across as the kind of PR that tries to manipulate audience response. Season 9 was not a very well written arc, Sam's actions were not well explained and a large chunk of the audience ended up super pissed off at him - so they are using this opportunity to say, nono, Sam was right to be an ass, it's because Dean was so selfish! It's manipulative as fuck, and this kind of thing is NEVER going to have the response they want. This is not how you get the audience to like a character, there needs to be something onscreen, the creators SAYING you should like them after the fact is not going to change any minds. They cannot retroactively tell us how to interpret what we watched. Now I'm really annoyed and no longer sure I want to buy the DVD. Soooooo not a fan of Carver. Ugh.

Late to the discussion but I have to say I'm surprised so many people didn't like OTHOAP. I love it. This is the best episode in the series for me, followed closely only by WIAWSNB. I thought the torture scene was brilliantly done, the dialogue, the directing, AND the acting. I loved the subtlety of Alastair exerting his dominance and control, even though he was tied up and Dean was the one with the knife. Alastair singing Cheek to Cheek was incredibly creepy. The song has been ruined forever. He immediately starts taunting - this must be emotionally hard for you. I shouldn't laugh. They sent you? He compares Dean to John - John was the stuff of heroes, but then came Dean. I couldn't break John but "daddy's little girl" couldn't take it. Even tied up, Alastair was still the torturer, that dynamic had so much history behind it and was incredibly convincing IMO. He then goes on to frame it as being Dean's fault, Dean's failure, Dean's choice, even though torture is by definition designed to systematically remove agency. The whole thing was psychologically chilling. By the time they got to the reveal that Dean broke the first seal, I was pretty much curled up whimpering in the corner. So in that sense, I don't think Jensen was trying to sell Dean-the-convincing-torturer. He was very much NOT in control of that situation, it would not have made sense for him to come across evil and out of control. It was supposed to be Dean trying to convince Alastair that the tables have turned, and being unconvincing. I thought that came across very very well, and I think it was one of Jensen's best performances in the series. MV though, of course. I thought this episode was brilliant. We are definitely not seeing writing of this calibre these days. I have rewatched this episode countless times, and know most of the dialogue by this point. Clearly a huge masochist.

I also don't have too many nice things to say about this episode. The Purgatory stuff was such an awesome setup. I was so excited for this season, after hating Season 6 and 7 and having basically given up on the show. Jensen was really great with the PTSD reactions, the way he showed Dean's hypervigillance, and all of his dialogue just sounded so much more on edge. What happened with Sam here was the epitome of character assassination. It doesn't sound like it from the discussions here and at TWOP, but I actually liked Sam a lot until this point. I always loved Dean more, but I am much more like Sam, and was very sympathetic towards him and understood his choices even through the demon blood arc etc. But wtf happened here... Sam not looking for Dean being explained as maturity of all things is not at ALL well justified and basically contradicts the seven seasons which came before this. Abandoning Kevin was even more inexcusable, and totally glossed over. I'm just starting to get over it and warm to Sam a bit now, two years later. Argh! I hate this season.

Jumping in to say that I also enjoyed Season 9, and it's the first season I will be buying on DVD since Season 4. Different seasons appeal to each of us depending on our personal taste? It seems to be an UO here but I was totally fine with the dysfunction and angst of Season 4 and 5, but really disliked Season 6/7 despite the levity of the characters because of the directionlessness of the mytharcs. As heartbreaking as it was to see, I love how Season 9 ended and how it potentially sets up Season 10 (which again, seems to be an UO on this site, but not an UO in fandom in general imo?). I think it's a matter of expectation and taste, and depends quite a lot on the characters you like? I personally really hated Season 8 - all of it - the first half for ruining Sam, and the second half for nursemaid!Dean, but a lot of people loved it (especially Destiel fans lol). Despite the retcon and lol!canon-ness of a lot of the mytharc stuff, I found the MoC concept very interesting, and Dean having a storyline for once definitely helped things - but the brotherly relationship kinda really goes to shit in Season 9. And the angels storyline is dry as sawdust. So... yeah. Depends what you are watching for. I think a lot of us signed up for the little roadshow about two brothers in Season 1, and it's a completely different show now... But the show was also conceptualized to be about Sam, and IMO with Dean set up to be a Xander type supporting character - so I can't in all fairness say that change is all bad.

I cringed when I first saw the news of Becky's return too, but now I kinda think it might be a good thing they are bringing her back. At least the fan avatar's last appearance won't be to kidnap and roofie somebody. Fingers crossed that they redeem her and fix the travesty of the wedding episode. Since it's a Becky episode, there will probably be a good amount of Sam!pimpage though. /eyeroll I have to say that while I love Ben Edlund's wacky creative genius as a storyteller, he has messed up just as badly with consent issues. Wishful Thinking had the dude who mind controlled a woman into sleeping with him, and portrayed it as if it was some tragic thing when he gave her up. So creepy.

How is this different from what Sam said to persuade Dean not to say yes to Michael? "Bobby is working on something". "Oh yeah, what?" *silence from Sam* They are both situations where there is no concrete alternative as of yet, but the intention is to look for another way. I don't see how this is manipulation rather than persuasion - Dean did not misrepresent his intention. Sam not liking the consequence that came after does not absolve him of responsibility from making his own decision here. Also, while I disagree that it was acceptable for Sam to to lie to Jess about who he was, an argument can still be made for the family rules. How do you explain how he also lied to Amelia, when he is WELL aware of the real danger she would be in by being with him? He did not allow her to make an informed choice, and she was put at physical risk without any knowledge on her part. It's stuff like this that puts Sam in a position of coming across kind of hypocritical. Season 8 was a huge clusterfuck lol.

Tall Tales -- Sorry for killing another one! *dodges rotten tomatoes* RIP brotherly wrestling on the bed and slow dancing aliens. Nightshifter -- IMTOD -- 35 - In My Time of Dying 35 - What Is and What Should Never Be 09 - Hollywood Babylon 02 - Nightshifter Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 Folsom Prison Blues Born Under a Bad Sign Crossroad Blues

Carver should really stay away from PR. It's probably the only thing he is worse at than showrunning. This is the same guy who said Sam leaving Dean to rot in Purgatory was a sign of maturity. /eyeroll I'm just going to go ahead and ignore whatever his "interpretation" was, I assume it's going to be nothing at all like what we'll actually see onscreen next season.

WIAWSNB + Tall Tales -- BUABS -- Sorry guys, I had to do it! This episode already survived an extra couple of days since I haven't had a chance to come online and vote. This was probably the best Jared episode of the series for me. It's so well paced and had some incredible, chilling scenes. Too many good eps this season so it had to go! 38 - In My Time of Dying 35 - What Is and What Should Never Be 12 - Hollywood Babylon 08 - Nightshifter 05- Tall Tales 01 - Crossroad Blues Moved on: Born Under a Bad Sign Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 Folsom Prison Blues

TT -- BUABS -- Nightshifter -- 40 - In My Time of Dying 38 - What Is and What Should Never Be 19 - Hollywood Babylon 11 - Nightshifter 10 - Tall Tales 07 - Crossroad Blues 03 - Born Under a Bad Sign Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 Folsom Prison Blues

TT -- BUABS -- Nightshifter -- (Argh, starting to vote against some of my favourites! Mandroid!!!) 43 - In My Time of Dying 42 - What Is and What Should Never Be 26- Hollywood Babylon 21- Nightshifter 17 - Tall Tales 11 - Crossroad Blues 07 - Born Under a Bad Sign 05 - Folsom Prison Blues Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2

I thought EP stood for episode here. Even if he was going to be given a producer credit, he wouldn't be made an executive producer would he? Not positive how this stuff works though.

Fingers crossed the deadly duo don't write this episode. Or worse - Jenny Klein!

I will be so done with this show if DEAN turns into a demon, and SAM is the one going down a dark path, yet again. Argh! Can Dean just, not have his storyline dropped for once? I sincerely hope it's just coming across this way to avoid giving too many spoilers. And it looks like the bland angel storyline is going to continue, with Cas being separated from the brothers. So many seasons of the same. As for Sam frantically looking for Dean - I wonder if this had always been the plan, or if it's the writers caving to fan pressure, since Sam not looking for Dean in Season 8 was so hated? I got this impression with the whole second half of Season 9 tbh, that the writers softened Sam's stance quite a bit, probably because of the fan backlash. Course correction maybe?

Tall Tales -- BUABS -- Nightshifter -- 45 - In My Time of Dying 44 - What Is and What Should Never Be 29- Hollywood Babylon 28 - Nightshifter 22 - Tall Tales 19 - Crossroad Blues 17 - Born Under a Bad Sign 12 - Folsom Prison Blues Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2

TT -- BUABS -- Crossroad Blues + 46 - What Is and What Should Never Be 46 - In My Time of Dying 31 - Hollywood Babylon 30 - Nightshifter 26 - Tall Tales 21 - Born Under a Bad Sign 20 - Crossroad Blues 16 - Folsom Prison Blues 04 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects

AHBL Pt 2 + BUABS -- TT -- 49 - In My Time of Dying 49 - What Is and What Should Never Be 32 - Nightshifter 32 - Hollywood Babylon 28 - Born Under a Bad Sign 27 - Tall Tales 19 - Crossroad Blues 18 - Folsom Prison Blues 05 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects

WIAWSNB + TT -- BUABS -- 51 - In My Time of Dying 51 - What Is and What Should Never Be 34 - Hollywood Babylon 34 - Nightshifter 32 - Tall Tales 31 - Born Under a Bad Sign 23 - Crossroad Blues 20 - Folsom Prison Blues 10 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 The Usual Suspects

WIAWSNB + BUABS -- TT -- 53 - In My Time of Dying 52 - What Is and What Should Never Be 38 - Born Under a Bad Sign 35 - Hollywood Babylon 31 - Nightshifter 29 - Tall Tales 27 - Crossroad Blues 22 - Folsom Prison Blues 14 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 06 - The Usual Suspects Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1

The Usual Suspects -- Tall Tales -- BUABS -- 53 - What Is and What Should Never Be 53 - In My Time of Dying 42 - Born Under a Bad Sign 37 - Hollywood Babylon 30 - Tall Tales 30- Nightshifter 27 - Crossroad Blues 21 - Folsom Prison Blues 20 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 09 - The Usual Suspects Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1

WIAWSNB + Tall Tales -- The Usual Suspects -- 53 - In My Time of Dying 53 - What Is and What Should Never Be 47 - Born Under a Bad Sign 38 - Hollywood Babylon 33 - Tall Tales 31 - Crossroad Blues 31 - Nightshifter 25 - Folsom Prison Blues 19 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 13 - The Usual Suspects Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1

WIAWSNB + AHBL Pt 1 -- Tall Tales -- 56 - What Is and What Should Never Be 53 - In My Time of Dying 47 - Born Under a Bad Sign 39 - Hollywood Babylon 38 - Tall Tales 35 - Crossroad Blues 31 - Nightshifter 25 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 25 - Folsom Prison Blues 21 - The Usual Suspects Moved on: All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan Everybody Loves a Clown Playthings Simon Said Hunted Houses of the Holy Bloodlust