Nanrad

People love Lorelei and Rory, but that's without deeply examining. Many have said, when you examine their dynamic, it's unhealthy. People just don't talk about it as much because their quirky and the show is centered around them.

Can you elaborate on this? Like do you mean as if "twice as hard" for people to even acknowledge they have chemistry? I'd definitely agree with it comes to interracial couples. Some just have it and others will deny it until their dying breath. I personally didn't see it for Olitz (Olivia and Fitz from Scandal), but I see it for Richonne (Rick and Michonne), Bawson (Ginny Baker and Mike Lawson), and a few others. For me, it largely depends on the type of criticism being given about the ship. With Wes, I think he just bores me and can get annoying when in relationships that I just don't care who he's paired with. lol. Like, I didn't even care when he was with Meggy. But, Asher and Michaela are cute. And Sam and Annalise fascinated me.

@doram In my experience, there doesn't have to be an active WW/WM coupling to rival an interracial ship just for people to hate on it. There could be that one white person who appeared on the screen for .05 seconds that a person could write a dissertation about why this random white person is preferable over the minority. An active one may make things worse, but if someone is against interracial ships, they will find any reason and literally pair them with anyone white person. If they had a problem with it in the first place, they would've shat on Wes and Rebecca as well as the other ships, especially Michaela and Asher (because people used to be very critical of her personality back then).

I'm not arguing that BM/WW are welcomed with open arms, I'm contended that they don't receive the type of backlash that's is being argued and said as to why people don't like Waurel. IMHO, more times than not, the validity of the relationship isn't questioned and is accepted for what it is. I'm not trying to make this a competition, but I rarely, if ever, have ever heard that type of criticism directed at BM/WW pairing and have seen it exclusively directed at BW/non black men--even the hint of a BW being a love interest gets this type of response. Hell, did Wes even get this type of criticism when he dated Rebecca if this is the case? People hated Rebecca because she was intolerable and they hated her influence of him. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing how Waurel is being criticized because they were an interracial relationship when this show has had so many interracial relationships that haven't been criticized--even problematic ones, such as Sam and Annalise. The criticism of them is about the fact that he used to be her therapist. Here are the interracial relationships that we've seen, which I can recall: Sam/Annalise Annalise/Eve Wes/Rebecca Michaela/Asher Conner/Oliver Wes/Laurel And of all of these interracial pairings, some of which happened longer than Waurel, there hasn't been any implication of these other relationships being criticized because they're interracial. Minus Sam, because he was super fucked up, most of Annalise's partners were said to be better off without her because 1. she set Nate up for murder and constantly used him 2. Didn't seem to want to be in an actual relationship with Eve other than making herself feel good and wanted. And, honestly, can we say that those critiques aren't valid? Rebecca was totally intolerable and Wes constantly compromised their plans and case for Rebecca. Connor and Oliver have become toxic to each other. Michaela and Asher are working their kinks out. Why is it, of all these relationships, Waurel is the special ship that is discriminated against because it's interracial??? That does not compute for me. There is literally no trend of fans in this fandom being extra critical about interracial relationships besides claims that recently popped up after Wes died and this, again, is ONLY for Waurel. The more I think of reasons why this doesn't seem to be the case, the less I understand the accusation.

Well, that's why I said very little criticism. That doesn't mean BM/WW aren't criticized at all, but in comparison to BW/WW, relatively speaking, it's very minor. I was already thinking about the Supergirl one and I don't even watch that show, but compare it to Sleepy Hollow, The Walking Dead, the Vampire Dairies, and so forth, yeah...it happens, but it's not as common with the vice versa. With HTGAWM, it would be really weird and a change of pace for people to get upset about a BM/WW interracial relationship, which is ONE of the THREE couplings. Considering how these fictional pairings are often reflective of real life feelings, I highly doubt that only the BM/WW pairing would get criticized all while ignoring a BW/WW, which is why I don't think the criticism of Waurel as well as the dislike of Wes has anything to do with race. Nate may not be a main character, but he is a prominent secondary character and many like him. Admittedly, he isn't in an interracial relationship, but I doubt he'd get shit if he were. People's feelings about Wes are separate from their feelings about Waurel. Many disliked Wes even before Waurel because canon and it had everything to do with the stupid shit he did while alive. I get annoyed at Connor for similar reasons, but he just cries non stop and has no accountability. And to be clear, my opinion on this matter is solely about fictional pairings not real pairings. Ironically, as a black woman--even as a teen, I've had many people assume that I was dating my white male friends or 'ship' me with them for various reasons. I think interracial couples deal with the kid part more than the actual coupling part unless the person is hellbent on being ignorant; many can admit two people are together, but downplay the seriousness of said relationship. It also largely depends on the location as well: north, midwest, south, west, east as to how they perceive the relationship. There was this one white male friend of mine who many assumed we were dating--no hand holding, hugging, kissing--just smiles and laughs. They were legit shocked when I told them a year later that me and that guy never dated. When it comes to Eve and Annalise, I think it was more a of a gender issue than race. Immediately, I also picked up their was a romantic history between them so I was surprised that many hadn't figured that out during their initial interactions. It had all of the same romantic cues as heterosexual pairings. I think if it had even been a male, people would've picked up on that.

When did they state this? There are plenty of series that state a lot to stuff after the fact when there is either no clear evidence or it was poorly executed. Society likes to lump interracial relationships as non romantic when it comes to WOC being paired with anyone, especially non black men. There is very little criticism about BM/WW pairings or even framed as non romantic. -- See, I don't think she's "coolly" letting him take the heat, but rather, she has to sell it for reasons we'll later find out. What good would it do for her to agree to frame Frank and not sell it to the cops? I don't even get her 'cool' reaction to doing this because we have no idea what her reaction was during the conversation with Bonnie or her reaction after her discussion with the cops? All we see if the moment where she does her best to convince the cops that Frank did it. --- As mentioned in the other thread, this tends to happen overwhelmingly with BW/Non black men. BM/Non black women tend to counter this reaction at a far lower rate--almost non existent.

It switches between Connor and Oliver as to who I dislike more. lol. All of the whining and self-centeredness. *groans* ETA: Wes annoyed me, but he was far more tolerable than Connor.

Now that I think about it, I don't think Waurel gets hate because it's an interracial romance especially when there's literally another interracial romance on the show as well that gets far less criticism. The primary criticism of this relationship is centered around Asher as well with very understandable critiques. Truth be told, when it comes to black and white romances, the pairing that suffers the most from racists criticisms are the ones where it's black women paired with white men. These criticisms usually consist of saying the black woman's character would be ruined by a romance, she's too ________, why can't men and women be friends, and so forth all while pairing the white man with anyone non black woman who breathed in his direction. On average, far less are said about black men with white women and non black women. Ironically, that is not the case in HTGAWM and I highly doubt the criticism towards Waurel has anything to do with race. In present day, how often have we seen a BM/WW pairing criticized on the level of BW/WW or any other interracial relationship where the WW is paired with a non white man? I could provide several current examples of this and, I believe, there has been articles written about this phenomena as well. It really doesn't hold water when you think about regarding this show. Truth be told, Wes is a poorly construed character who behaved very hypocritical and holier than thou as if he didn't have skeletons of his own even if they were understandable. People disliked Wes because he prioritized a girl who he barely knew, which constantly jeopardized the case and investigation they were working. He's done tons of shit that justifiably annoyed most people. Who can honestly argue that Wes is disliked for no reason??? Who can honestly the only reason he's this disliked is because of race? Hell, even the doubt of paternity isn't because of the interracial relationship but because Laurel and Frank were caught up with one another since the beginning of the series--like actual fucking not undertones of feelings. The night he stayed over was played ambiguously. It was leading. If Michaela were to get pregnant, no one would question the paternity. Now, if that happened, then yes, I could understand the claims of racism, but when it comes to Laurel, Wes, and Frank--it makes complete sensed that's because the series set it up this way. There are people who do dislike Michaela, but in this episode a lot of them were like "HELL YEAH!" We can say this is one episode, which would be true. But, I do believe the criticism has died down since the first season. But, overall, when it comes to this show, many of the characters are morally gray. Even if you take out the worst ones, there is no true "good" person here.

Personally, I believe that someone can have feelings for another person and protect them without their motivation being due to said romantic feelings. I don't believe that ever action taken when someone has feelings for another person has to because of those feelings. People are far more complicated than that and, sometimes, people take actions that are separated from how they feel. Because, IMO, it seems as if every interaction Wes and Laurel ever had is now being colored by romantic undertones that I honestly don't believe were there to begin with. I have also continuously stated and will continue to that, if the undertones have been there throughout the series, it was poorly executed. The series didn't start executing it correctly until 2B (which even when they did start actively selling it, the pairing perplexed me). I can buy that far better than it being there since the beginning. Even when arguing that Laurel has loved Wes longer, it's done some to diminish her other relationship in the series and I don't understand what for. Laurel and Frank were complicated, but I just not buying that she wasn't really that into him yet loved him. Other than Bonnie, everyone else never questioned the authenticity of her feelings. Hell, even Wes believed there was something still there. They call each other out on their bullshit all of the time, but Laurel wasn't really feeling Frank yet no one said nothing, yet were super observant about her and Wes (which could easily be that society tends to think men and women who are friends are really sleeping with each other--the reason that hasn't happened with Michaela and Connor is because Connor is gay). Sure, this is one place, but even checking the history of this board, there is hardly any reference to Wes and Laurel undertones being spotted, and then in the pairing poll, more people said they had a sibling type relationship even after they slept together. Maybe forced was strong, but Bonnie clearly had to convince Laurel to frame Frank that much is true. Even then, I doubt she helped frame Frank with the idea that he'd spend the rest of his life in prison. Even if Laurel doubts Annalise was completely innocent when it came to Wes' death, it wasn't enough to even sell her out to the cops. Laurel doesn't jump at the opportunity to sell Frank out, but she does frame him with a long term goal in mind, especially because Annalise is a glue of sorts that holds everything together when it comes to murder cover ups 1 and 2. Furthermore, I don't even like the idea of Laurel framing Frank being tied into her feelings for him because that decision seemed to be based on something completely separate from her former romantic entanglement and contrary to her initial conversation with Nate.

I I think it's interpretive that her motivation was romantic in nature. Also, her reason for framing Frank has everything to do with him admitting to the murder and her hand being forced since they can't get Annalise off. Laurel didn't want to implicate Frank at all. Frank and Wes are morally two different characters, which is the deciding factor more so than who she has feelings for.

Yeah, I had put that I'd change it if it were a spoiler. I can't watch it live. :(

Whether we see it as self defense or anything else, the K5 and others do differentiate between Wes killing Sam and Frank killing Lila. Many see what Wes did as understandable, where as Frank is a monster. People are allowed to their opinions, but I don't think that first murder is debatable when it comes to why Laurel defended/protected Wes. But, does her sense of protection for Wes have to be romantic? Why couldn't it have been at that time simply platonic and because she saw him as the least morally compromised? Maybe it was a GIGANTIC huge oversight on my part, but I'm pretty good at picking up these things even the subtle shit. EVEN if I don't like a pairing. Laurel's protection of Wes, IMHO, has no romantic overtone--even then, it wouldn't make any sense according to Laurel logic about stuff like that. Did she frame Frank for a murder? I thought you said she just said those things because she was upset? The murder in no way points to Frank. (I may edit this later if this is a spoiler for tonight). I thought she never wanted him and finally admitted it when they broke up after he admitted to killing Lila? Were she and Frank really friends tho? Some of this ain't adding up.

When is the appropriate time to change the thread title? lol @Skyline

Well, honestly, because she could rationalize why Wes committed murder and covering for him is okay and not Frank. It's easy to cover for someone who killed another person in self defense and this same person ordered to have another person killed. That's not something you're going to have on your conscious if you lie about it for protecting them vs. someone who was ordered to kill. Laurel is assessing the acts of murder on a scale of morality. If you were to hear that two people killed someone, you'd ask why. If one person killed in self defense and another person killed because someone asked them to, you're judging the latter and sympathizing with the former. So, I can't buy the idea that Laurel protected Wes out of anything more than self interest and because he had an 'understandable' reason for murder than 'her feelings ran that deep.' Despite Laurel's comment about her past, she doesn't even have a close relationship with her family--mainly her father--for that very reason. Is she suddenly okay with murder because of her feelings? So, she only cares when someone murders when it's not someone she loves and cares for deeply? The question then is: what does is her issue with Frank? She's okay with murder because of her background, but him admitting to murder is what finally pushed him away. But, she doesn't want him in jail nor does she want him around despite protecting him on two different occasions when it came to Annalise. She doesn't want him alive or dead? Her feelings could be everything that you said, but I just don't think she was being brutally honest because grief took away her filters. So, was she being mostly honest? Is she not including her role in the mission to get him to come back? Like, there are tons of questions here that need to be answered so she doesn't come off as a contradiction.

But, what was the point? Why take it out on him? Why did it even need to be said?

@doram Someone can easily correct me on this, but Laurel pushed away when she found out about his part in Lila's death. I've only seen each episode once, but that was the nail in the coffin for their relationship because she couldn't get past that, which is her right. She started getting closer to Wes due to the fact that Frank wouldn't be as open with her as she wanted him too and she felt that he did Anna's dirty work i.e. harming and killing, and then he admitted what he did for Sam. Her hesitance in their relationship was because she didn't know much about him or what he did for Anna not because she wasn't interested in actually wanting more. She feels guilty about moving on, but it isn't because she traded up, but rather their complicated history and the reasons their relationship ended. Laurel's animosity to Frank IS because he killed Wes' father and not because she had feelings for Wes, but 1. Her emotions for Frank are a mess; she cares about him, but this is the second time that he's murdered someone whether or not it was at the direction of someone else. 2. His morals are fucked 3. Wes was her friend. Laurel wanting Frank to go to jail is simply wanting him to pay for him crimes because he did do it. I think her feelings are more complicating than her feeling like she owed him, but is also partially that. But, Laurel seemed indecisive about turning Frank into Anna, which IMO wasn't about protecting him because she felt guilty--it was because she believed Frank or wanted to believe him and there were residual feelings. Granted you can get over someone in a couple of months, but she and Frank were entangled in one another for a hot minute for me to believe it just instantly evaporated despite her being with Wes or having feelings for him. Just like Wes was still hung up on Rebecca even after finding out she was dead--his feelings didn't just go away because he hadn't seen her in a while. Bonnie was already biased against Laurel and that's honestly not how I read their relationship and why Laurel stuck around. lol Laurel wasn't being selfishly honestly, she was being intentionally hurtful because she holds Frank responsible for what went down. Sure, the two can overlap, but in that instant, Laurel is grieving and needs someone to blame and who better than Frank? He's a killer and has been at the center of some shady stuff--he killed Wes father. And she found out that she was pregnant as well. And was finally at a good place in her life with someone who wasn't as complicated as her other boyfriends/partners. Yeah, I could see her saying a lot of shit out of anger just to tear Frank down. I mean, Laurel was being unnecessarily stubborn with Bonnie due to grief despite not suspecting that Anna was behind the bombing/Wes' murder, but it wasn't coloring her interaction with Frank??? Just about everything about that scene and her background points to grief than brutal honesty. She literally told Frank he should have died rather than Wes even though he wasn't involved--like, that's super fucked up. So, you believe she would honestly want him dead even if Wes hadn't died??? I don't think there is anything to add because we just don't agree on this.

@Keepitmoving that's not what I mean. Michaela doesn't have to constantly police and reprimand, but having basic expectations of your friends to behave like a decent person and not antagonize others is honestly not a huge expectation. And it would actually put her in a lot of sticky situations if she doesn't have any expectations out of him. She could point it out once or twice, and then end the friendship. From personal experience, I ended a friendship for this very reason: a former friend antagonizing others and not having basic decent to other people. Because it's not about doing it on the behalf of Laurel, but the inappropriateness of the entire situation and him not even considering her either. @doram IMO, the series showed that Laurel wanted more from Frank, which is why she met his family, BUT Frank couldn't tell her the truth about everything and with reason. Even this season she looked to be protecting Frank, despite her proclamations otherwise as well as it looking very much as if she had some unresolved feelings for Frank when he stayed at her place at she and Wes got together. I'm not saying that Wes and Laurel weren't hinted at, but I don't think they were executed well. I also said that canonically that her feelings are true, but I personally don't believe it's supported in the series to extent she's claiming. That's my interpretation of the series--I haven't denied anything, I just don't think the foundation was well laid.

@nkotb Do you know of any baseball fans who has recently watched Pitch?

I'm not saying it wasn't there, but rather, that's not necessarily the point I'm making. Laurel did enjoy having sex with Frank, but she also very clearly cared a lot about Frank in more than a sexual or even friendly way, which she is trying to diminish because of her grief. Even with her more than platonic feelings for Wes, that also doesn't mean it was this great love that she's backing it out to be. Now does that not making it canon? No. But, that wasn't executed (well) on screen if this is the case. === RE: the violence. Michaela is only accountable for the things that affect her, but I just didn't like how that scene played out. She's completely within her right to be perturbed by violence--I just would've wish I saw her speaking to Connor about his dick behavior that led to it. Her friend made inappropriate comments about an acquaintance to people who were clearly grieving--someone she keeps around. The next we scene him around her is all honky dory chilling in her bed. Understandably, she demands Asher to get his shit together if he's going to be with her, but Connor, her best friend doesn't have some kind of expectation of how to behave in emotionally stressful situations?

Right, she knew both the same amount of time and even knew less about Frank, but that doesn't mean that she loved Wes more than Frank unless you mean platonically. It honestly comes off a grief speaking because, despite their communication issues and secrets, it was more than sex for them. So she could love Wes more platonically, but that doesn't mean she loved him more romantically, which was what she wants Frank to believe. ==== Honestly, I do think that that girl favored Michaela. And I've mistaken a former friend with a complete stranger--she was what, but still. lol. So, I could see how Asher made that mistake. I'm done with Conner and Oliver. They're so annoying together. I can appreciate Oliver when he isn't with Connor, Connor has worn out my last nerve. IF Michaela has an issue with violence, that's what she needs to say to Asher rather than put fault on him for Connor's fucked up rambling and punching him in the face. I honestly feel sorry for Frank. When it comes to the women in his life, he's like a punching bag. I can somewhat understand Anna but Laurel and Bonnie. It's like been constant verbal abuse one after the other. Anna tried to talk him into killing himself. I think Bonnie has shit talked him to his face about his lack of worth. And then Laurel flat out told him that he should've died instead and blamed everything on him.

@Dee I think this has everything to do with the episode order RE: the lack of other girlfriends but it's also because if how sheltered she was growing up. Most of her friends are through baseball, which shows you that she had very little time for socializing outside of that.

Honestly, I didn't see it as forced because Mike has had non platonic feelings for Ginny since like the second game. Overall, he likes being around her and talking to her. Admittedly, I adore his dynamic with Amelia and think they could've had a nice long term relationship where they amicably broke up, but Mike is strongly drawn to Ginny. Amelia is the age appropriate choice who he likes an gets along well with, but he's enamored by Ginny due to her intelligence, strength, personality, and so forth. Not to say that Amelia's not any of these things, but the combo of Ginny's characteristics, and then some is what make Mike drawn to Ginny like a moth to a flame. Interestingly enough, Ginny, Amelia, and Rachel, who Mike has interests in beyond sex, share significant traits in common: strong personalities, independent, feminists beliefs, calling him on his shit, and so forth. I know some people are icked out by the age difference as well as the power differential, but based off of the last mound speech by Ginny (as well as other shit), Mike is letting Ginny dictate what happens. But, most importantly, Mike isn't drawn to Ginny because of her youth, occasional naivety, or to assert power over her. He may fuck around, but he seems to only date women who challenge him and keep him honest, which Ginny has done several times in the series in some capacity.

Honestly, I don't take Noah or Alison's POV about Cole seriously. They over exaggerate or fabricate his behavior to condone their own behavior. This has nothing to do with liking Cole because I'm indifferent to him, but Cole suffers from what Helen suffers from in their ex spouses POV-their vilified for being there BEFORE they met the other person. Helen comes off as a controlling bitch in Noah's POV--I was actually annoyed/disliked her, and then remembered it was Noah's POV who was I viewing this from--I LIKE Helen. I think Helen may be a bit pretentious and assertive, but i doubt that's how she really behaves. Alison is always the victim, so of course, Cole doesn't get that great of representation for behavior.

@topanga I understand why she objected, I was just really appalled. lol. And I agree, he's just really fascinated by her because that is impulsive as hell and I doubt the connection was that quick. But, I do see them sleeping with other people rather than each other is symbolizing their avoidance for how they feel about one another. Both of the times Ginny went out with Noah was motivated by whatever was going on with Mike. The first time was Butch noting how close they were and the second time was, I believe, the awkward hall conversation. Ginny thinks he's cute and interesting, but she's not dying to go out with him--he wasn't something she initially thought about taking on into her hectic, busy life, until she had to find a way to avoid her feelings for Mike.On Mike's almost last night as a Padre he invited only Ginny rather than his other teammates or those he's known longer. Despite, "getting" Rachel "back", he's still obsessing about Ginny. Those hook ups/reunions were about avoidance and not (solely) because of the other person involved. Give into the chemistry....lol. "Does the beard match the carpet?" *cackles* I think the baby thing and career desire are two separate issues. Evelyn doesn't want anymore kids, but she also wants to get started on her career. The way she said it, imo, seems like something she's been thinking about but didn't talk to Blip about it yet. It didn't come off as something like she thought her career made it impossible or bad to have another kid.

I see what you're saying regarding the analogy. And, yes, Noah probably knows how to fly a plane too. *groans* But, Mike, the Human Disaster, was firing on all cylinders by proving why he deserves he name. The hallway scene with him, Ginny, and Rachel will forever be iconic.